Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org >> Braude: ON "GREATER BOSTON": BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR AND CANDIDATE FOR MAYOR, ANDREA CAMPBELL, ON BATTLES WITH THE CITY'S LARGEST POLICE UNION, AND A CALL FOR HER TO STEP ASIDE TO CLEAR THE PATH FOR ANOTHER BLACK WOMAN CANDIDATE.

THEN, LATER, THE FORMER MAYOR OF SAN JUAN, PUERTO RICO, AND TRUMP COMBATANT, CARMEN YULIN CRUZ, WILL JOIN ME AS PRESIDENT BIDEN FINALLY RELEASES $8 BILLION IN AID TRUMP BLOCKED FOR YEARS AFTER HURRICANE MARIA.

PLUS, THE TOLL OF COVID ON THE ISLAND AND THE FIGHT FOR STATEHOOD.

AND, FINALLY, THE SCULPTOR BEHIND THE ICONIC "MAKE WAY FOR DUCKLINGS" STATUES IN THE PUBLIC GARDEN ON HER NEW BOOK, "DUCKS ON PARADE!"

>>> THERE'S BEEN PLENTY OF DISAGREEMENT IN CONVERSATIONS ABOUT POLICE REFORM IN THIS COUNTRY, INCLUDING SOME HEALTHY DEBATE ABOUT THE BEST WAY TO CHANGE A SYSTEM THAT HAS TAKEN THE LIVES OF SO MANY BLACK AND BROWN AMERICANS.

BUT THERE'S ALSO BEEN PLENTY OF HOSTILITY, TOO, INCLUDING HERE IN BOSTON.

IN A RECENT TWEET, THE CITY'S LARGEST POLICE UNION, THE BOSTON POLICE PATROLMAN'S ASSOCIATION, TARGETED BOSTON CITY COUNCILOR AND MAYORAL CANDIDATE ANDREA CAMPBELL, WHO CHAIRS THE COUNCIL'S COMMITTEE ON PUBLIC SAFETY AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE.

THEY WROTE THAT ANTI-VIOLENCE ADVOCATES WERE "JUSTIFIABLY ASTONISHED" THAT CAMPBELL'S COMMITTEE HAD HELD UP MORE THAN A MILLION DOLLARS IN GRANTS FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, GIVEN THE RECENT EXPLOSION OF VIOLENCE IN OUR CITY.

IN RESPONSE, CAMPBELL TWEETED: "LAST I CHECKED, WE WERE STILL WAITING TO HEAR FROM THE PROGRAM'S ASSOCIATION ON WHY THEY ENABLED AND ELEVATED AN ACCUSED CHILD MOLESTER.

UNTIL THEN, DON'T TWEET AT ME."

THAT'S, OF COURSE, IN REFERENCE TO THE FORMER HEAD OF THE ASSOCIATION, PATRICK ROSE, WHO WAS RECENTLY CHARGED WITH MORE THAN A DOZEN SEX OFFENSES AGAINST CHILDREN, BEHAVIORS A "BOSTON GLOBE" REPORT FOUND THAT THE BOSTON POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD KNOWN ABOUT FOR DECADES.

TO THAT TWEET, THE UNION RESPONDED, ACCUSING HER OF "HYPOCRISY," WRITING: "IF I WERE YOU, WHEN THE TOPIC OF DISCUSSION TURNS TO ENABLING CRIMINALS, YOU AND YOUR CREDIBILITY WOULD BE BEST SERVE BY RECUSING YOURSELF OR TWEETING AT NOBODY."

CITY COUNCILOR ANDREA CAMPBELL JOINS ME NOW TO DISCUSS.

WE ALSO INVITED THE PRESIDENT OF THE BOSTON POLICE PATROLMAN'S ASSOCIATION, WHO DECLINED TO JOIN US.

>> Braude: COUNCILOR, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, JIM.

>> Braude: THIS BACK AND FORTH STARTED WITH THIS CRITICISM OF THE HOLDING UP OF 1.2BILLION DOLLARS IN GRANTS, AND THEY'RE FULLY ENTITLED TO CHALLENGE YOUR CRITICISM AROUND POLICE FUNDING, IS IT NOT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

JUST AS I HAVE BEEN TELLING FOLKS WITH THE SPECTRUM OF GRANTS, THEY'RE STILL UNDER REVIEW BECAUSE I'M WAITING FOR RESPONSES FROM THE DEPARTMENT ABOUT CONCERNS FROM A FELLOW COLLEAGUE ON THOSE GRANTS.

I HAVE YET TO RECEIVE THAT.

UNTIL I DO, THEY WILL REMAIN UNDER REVIEW.

>> Braude: THEN YOUR RESPONSE WAS THAT YOU WERE WAITING TO HEAR WHAT THEY HAD TO SAY ABOUT THE ENABLING AND ELEVATION OF ROSE.

AND THEIR RESPONSE WAS ABOUT YOU ENABLING CRIMINALS, AND I ASSUME THEY'RE REFERENCING YOUR BROTHER, WHO HAS BEEN CHARGED WITH KIDNAPPING AND RAPE.

AYANNA PRESSLEY AND OTHERS HAVE DESCRIBED THE TWEETS AS RACIST.

WHAT DO YOU HAVE TO SAY AT WHAT HAS BEEN DIRECTED AT YOU?

>> IT IS PERSONAL, AND THERE IS A PATTERN OF PEOPLE GOING AFTER WOMEN OF COLOR AND WOMEN ELECTED.

I HAVE SAID FROM THE VERY BEGINNING IS THAT THE WORK I'M DOING IS TO ENSURE OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT IS THE MOST TRANSPARENT, DIVERSE, EQUITABLE, AND ACCOUNTABLE IN THE NATION.

THE ROSE CASE IS ONE MORE EXAMPLE THAT DEMONSTRATES THAT THAT DEPARTMENT HAS A LOT MORE WORK TO DO.

I'M ALWAYS WILLING TO ENGAGE ANY AND ALL STAKEHOLDERS ON ANY ISSUE, SO WE GET TO THE PLACE I THINK WE ALL WANT TO BE, WHICH IS TO BE THE LEADING DEPARTMENT IN THE COUNTRY WITH RESPECT TO TRANSPARENCY.

AND ALSO THAT WE HAVE A BUDGET THAT IS SUS STABLE, AND RIGHT NOW THAT IS NOT THE CASE.

>> Braude: CAN THE KIND OF REFORM THAT YOU AND OTHERS ON THE COUNCIL SUPPORT, CAN IT HAPPEN WITH A MORE POSITIVE RELATIONSHIP WITH THE PATROLMAN'S ASSOCIATION?

>> FOR ME, IT IS GOING TO HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT.

I ALWAYS WANT TO WORK WITH ANYONE.

I HAVE ENGAGED EVERY UNION, A WHOLE HOST OF STAKEHOLDERS, TO PUSH REFORMS OVER THE YEARS.

WHEN I FIRST GOT TO THE COUNCIL, MY FIRST ORDER OF BUSINESS WAS MAKING SURE THAT THE CITY OF BOSTON IMPLEMENTED BODY CAMERAS.

I SHOWED UP IN COURT TO MAKE SURE THAT THAT HAPPENED BECAUSE THE CITY MADE THAT COMMITMENT TO ADVOCATE.

ON THE OPPOSITE SIDE IN THAT COURTROOM WAS THE PATROLMAN'S ASSOCIATION.

THERE HAVE BEEN OTHER INSTANCES WHERE I WORKED IN PARTNERSHIP WITH THAT PARTICULAR UNION TO GET THINGS DONE.

I'LL WORK WITH ANYONE AND EVERYONE, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO ALLOW PEOPLE TO STAND IN THE WAY IN REGARDING BEING TRANSPARENT WITH RESPECT TO THE PEOPLE WE SERVE.

THAT REQUIRES LEADERSHIP, AND BOLD LEADERSHIP, AND THAT'S WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING AND I WON'T STOP.

>> Braude: IS THE TWEET RACIST, IS THE LEADERSHIP OF THE UNION RACIST IN YOUR ESTIMATION?

>> THE TWEET IS A PATTERN OF HOW THEY SHOW UP.

AND THIS IS THE LEADERSHIP.

AND WHOEVER IS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE COMMUNICATIONS, AND HOW THEY SHOW UP WHEN FOLKS CHALLENGE THEM.

AND I HAVE BEEN CHALLENGING THE ENTIRE SYSTEM, FRANKLY, WITH RESPECT TO POLICING, TO BE MORE TRANSPARENT AND ACCOUNTABLE, AND TO ALSO PUSH THIS DEPARTMENT TO DO BETTER AND TO THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX WHEN RESPONDING TO INCIDENTS OF VIOLENCE IN PUBLIC SAFETY, FOR EXAMPLE, TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF VIOLENCE.

THERE IS A RELUCTANCE TO DO THAT.

THERE IS A CLINGING ON, ALMOST, TO THE STATUS QUO.

I HAVE SAID THAT CAN'T CONTINUE TO BE THE CASE BECAUSE RESIDENTS ARE DEMANDING THAT THIS SYSTEM BE MORE TRANSPARENT AND ACCOUNTABLE.

WHAT I HAVE FOUND IS THEY GET UPSET.

AND THEY RESPOND WITH THIS PERSONAL ATTACK.

FOR ME, I DON'T GET INVOLVED IN THE PERSONAL.

IF ANYTHING, IT WAS DISAPPOINTING.

IT WAS UPSETTING.

AND I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN CRYSTAL CLEAR ON WHY I DO THIS WORK OF BEING A PUBLIC SERVANTS AND BEING ELECTED.

IT IS ABOUT BREAKING CYCLES OF POVERTY, OF TRAUMA, OF CRIMINALIZATION, AND NOT JUST FOR MYSELF AND MY TWO BOYS, FOR EXAMPLE, BUT FOR OTHER FAMILIES IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

>> Braude: ONE LAST THING ABOUT ROSE HIMSELF.

WE ALL KNOW THAT 13 PAGES OF HIS INTERNAL AFFAIRS INVESTIGATION FILES WERE FINALLY RELEASED A WEEK OR SO AGO, LEAVING, I THINK IT IS, 92 PAGES UNRELEASED.

THE ARGUMENT BEING MADE THAT THAT WAS TO PROTECT VICTIMS.

I HAVE TO SAY I DON'T UNDERSTAND WHY MORE CAN'T BE RELEASED WITH REDACTION THAT DOES PROTECT THEM.

HAVING SAID THAT, ARE YOU SATISFIED WITH WHAT WAS RELEASED?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> Braude: THE WHOLE THING HAS GOT TO BE PUBLIC?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND WE CAN DO THAT WITH ALSO PROTECTING THE RIGHTS OF THE VICTIMS, WHICH IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT.

IF OTHER FOLKS IN THE DEPARTMENT WHO HAVE KNOWLEDGE OF THAT RECORD AND ARE SAYING MORE DOCUMENTS CAN BE RELEASED, I FIRMLY BELIEVE WE SHOULD BE RELEASING THAT INVESTIGATION.

WE ALSO NEED AN EXTERNAL INVESTIGATION INTO THIS ROSE CASE.

AND I AM PUSHING THE ACTING MAYOR TO ENLIST THE U.S. ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TO DO JUST THAT.

>> Braude: SPEAKING OF THE ACTING MAYOR, DOES KIM JANEY HAVE THE POWER TO RELEASE THE FULL REPORT?

IF SHE DOES, SHOULD SHE?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

AND IT SHOULD BE DONE IN WAYS THAT PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF THE VICTIMS.

BUT THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO SAID THERE ARE DOCUMENTS THAT CAN BE RELEASED, AND THEY HAVE NOT YET.

>> Braude: SOME OF YOUR SUPPORTERS RECEIVED A LETTER FROM RICHARD TAYLOR, FORMER MEMBER OF THE WEALTH CABINET, AND AFRICAN-AMERICAN DEVELOPER, SUGGESTING THAT YOU DROP OUT OF THE RACE, RUN FOR THE SUFFOLK D.A.

'S POSITION, TO CLEAR THE FIELD FOR ANOTHER BLACK WOMAN.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> I WAS DISAPPOINTED.

I HAVE NO INTEREST IN RUNNING FOR DISTRICT ATTORNEY.

THE ONLY JOB I'M RUNNING FOR IS TO BE THE NEXT ELECTED MAYOR IN THE CITY OF BOSTON.

BLACK WOMEN ARE NOT INTERCHANGEABLE.

WE EACH HAVE OUR OWN STORY.

WHY I DO THIS WORK IS VERY DISTINCT FROM EVERY CANDIDATE IN THIS RACE.

MY RECORD OF ACCOMPLISHMENT AND THE ISSUES I'VE FOCUSED ON, INCLUDING POLICING REFORM, SET ME APART NOT JUST FROM THE ACTING MAYOR, BUT EVERY CANDIDATE IN THIS RACE.

AND NOW MY JOB IS TO GET OUT THERE AND SHARE MY STORY AND RECORD OF ACCOMPLISHMENT WITH VOTERS AND EARN THEIR SUPPORT FOR THE CITY OF BOSTON.

>> Braude: THE CAMPAIGN MANAGER FOR KIM JANEY SAID THIS LETTER DID NOT REFLECT THE VIEWS OF HER CAMPAIGN.

DO YOU ACCEPT THE STATEMENT BY THE CAMPAIGN MANAGER?

OR DO YOU HOLD JANEY RESPONSIBLE FOR THIS?

>> WELL, I'M HOPING, OF COURSE, ACTING MAYOR JANEY WOULD RESPOND.

IT IS ONE THING, OF COURSE, TO HAVE OUR TEAMS RESPOND.

ONE THING I'M NOT ALLOWING MY TEAM TO DO IS TO PUSH THIS NARRATIVE THAT THERE IS ONLY ROOM IN THE RACE FOR ONE BLACK WOMAN.

IF IT DOES COME OUT OF MY CAMP, I SHUT IT DOWN IMMEDIATELY.

>> Braude: SO YOU WOULD LIKE TO HEAR FROM HER?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I BELIEVE IT IS IMPORTANT PUBLICLY THAT PEOPLE HERE THAT THIS NARRATIVE IS UNACCEPTABLE, AND THAT WE ARE NOT MONOLOGUE.

WE'RE TWO SEPARATE HUMAN BEINGS WITH DIFFERENT STORIES, DIFFERENT PASSIONS, DIFFERENT RECORDS OF ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

AND NOW THE VOTERS DESERVE TO KNOW MORE AND MAKE AN INFORMED CHOICE IN THIS RACE.

>> Braude: I KNOW WE'RE HOPEFULLY COMING OUT OF A PANDEMIC, HOW HARD IS IT TO RUN IN A MULTI-CANDIDATE FIELD WHEN YOU CAN'T TOUCH PEOPLE LITERALLY OR FIGURATIVELY?

>> IT HAS BEEN CHALLENGING EARLY ON, BUT NOW THAT MORE FOLKS WERE VACCINATED, WE WERE OUT THERE THIS WEEKEND, AND I WAS DOOR-KNOCKING, AND I LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING MORE PEOPLE.

>> Braude: ANDREA CAMPBELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOF YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU, JIM.

>> Braude: WHEN HURRICANE MARIA HITS PUERTO RICO HARD IN 2017, KILLING AS MANY AS 3,000 PEOPLE AND LEVELING MUCH OF THE ISLAND, DONALD TRUMP SAID HIS ADMINISTRATION WAS GIVING THE U.S.

TERRITORY THE SUPPORT IT NEEDED.

>> WE'RE DOING REALLY WELL ON PUERTO RICO.

WE ARE SENDING TREMENDOUS AMOUNTS OF SUPPLIES.

TREMENDOUS PROGRESS IS BEING MADE.

AS FAR AS PUERTO RICO IS CONCERNED, THAT'S BEEN GOING, AS YOU KNOW, REALLY WELL.

>> Braude: BUT WHILE HE WAS PATTING HIMSELF ON THE BACK, AND THROWING ROLLS OF PAPER TOWELS AT HURRICANE SURVIVORS, A RECENT INSPECTOR GENERAL REPORT FOUND THAT TRUMP WAS STALLING AS MUCH AS $20 BILLION IN FEDERAL AID, A LOT OF WHICH IS ONLY NOW STARTING TO BE RELEASED.

AND WHEN PUERTO RICAN LEADERS DARED TO CRITICIZE HIS RESPONSE?

HE CALLED THEM "POLITICAL INGRATES," SPECIFICALLY THE THEN-MAYOR OF SAN JUAN, CARMEN YULIN CRUZ, WHO SAID THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S INEFFICIENT RESPONSE WAS KILLING PEOPLE.

>> WE ARE DYING HERE.

WE TRULY ARE DYING HERE.

IT'S NOT A GOOD STORY WHEN PEOPLE ARE DYING, WHEN PEOPLE ARE STARVING, WHEN PEOPLE ARE THIRSTY.

PLEASE, HELP US.

>> Braude: WHEN THAT HELP DIDN'T COME, CRUZ AND OTHERS BEGAN RENEWING CALLS TO GIVE THE ISLAND GREATER POWER OVER IT'S OWN FUTURE.

AND NOW THERE IS A BILL BEFORE CONGRESS THAT WOULD DO JUST THAT BY GIVING PUERTO RICANS THE OPTION CHOOSE STATEHOOD, INDEPENDENCE, OR SOMETHING ELSE.

CARMEN YULIN CRUZ IS NOW IN MASSACHUSETTS FOR A ONE-YEAR FELLOWSHIP AT MOUNT HOLYOKE COLLEGE.

>> Braude: IT IS A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

WHEN YOU SHOWED THOSE PHOTOGRAPHS AND THE VIDEOS, AND MY PUERTO RICAN FLAG BEHIND ME, IT STILL TOUCHES MY HEART.

I HAVE A LITTLE POST-IT IN FRONT OF ME, WHICH YOU CAN'T SEE, AND IT SAYS "FOR THE 3,000."

THERE IS NOT A DAY THAT GOES BY THAT I I DON'T THINK OF HOW THAT COULD HAVE BEEN AVOIDED.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU READ THIS REPORT, WHICH I'M SURE DIDN'T SURPRISE YOU AT ALL, WHY DID DONALD TRUMP HAVE IT IN FOR THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO?

>> I'VE BEEN ASKED THAT QUESTION.

AT THE BEGINNING, I DIDN'T WANT TO ANSWER WHAT WAS INHERENTLY IN MY SOUL.

DONALD TRUMP IS RACIST.

YOU KNOW, HE IS ALSO IGNORANT ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP THAT PUERTO RICO AND THE UNITED STATES HAS.

PUERTO RICO IS A COLONY OF THE U.S. WE ARE A U.S.

TERRITORY.

WE PROBABLY ARE THE LAST STANDING COLONY IN THE WORLD.

AND I DON'T THINK HE KNEW VERY MUCH THAT PUERTO RICANS ARE U.S. CITIZENS.

WHEN SOME REPORTER ASKED HIM, HE VISIBLY SEEMED SURPRISED.

BUT EVEN IF HE DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THAT, THERE IS AN INNATE HUMAN QUALITY, THAT WHEN PEOPLE ARE IN NEED, YOU JUST OFFER THE HELP.

YOU DON'T ASK FOR IT.

FEMA WAS ASKING US FOR MEMOS.

WHEN WE HAVE NO ELECTRICITY, SO WE COULDN'T EVEN WRITE AT OUR COMPUTERS.

YOU JUST -- WHAT WAS UNTHINKABLE TO ME WAS THAT WHILE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE WERE FINDING A WAY TO HELP, FROM BOSTON, FROM CHICAGO, FROM NEW YORK, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WAS SAYING THAT THERE WERE UNSURMOUNTABLE LOGISTICAL REASONS FOR WHY THEY COULDN'T GET THE HELP TO PUERTO RICO.

AND YET PEOPLE WERE GETTING THE HELP.

THERE WERE FAILINGS OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE BIG HEART OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

>> Braude: I'M SURE YOU THOUGHT A LOT, AND I'M SURE MANY IN PUERTO RICO HAVE THOUGHT ABOUT WHAT WOULD IT TAKE TO ENSURE THAT THE FUTURE OF THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO IS NOT DEPEND UPON THE WHIMS OF AN INDIVIDUAL LEADER.

I ASSUME IT RESTS IN WHAT IS THE STATUS OF PUERTO RICO GOING FORWARD.

WHERE ARE YOU ON THIS WHOLE ISSUE OF STATEHOOD VERSUS INDEPENDENCE VERSUS, I DON'T KNOW, AN ENHANCED VERSION OF WHAT WE HAVE NOW?

>> WELL, THERE IS A FOURTH OPTION, WHICH IS FREE ASSOCIATION.

IT IS A COMPACT BETWEEN THE U.S. AND PUERTO RICO.

I BELIEVE THAT PUERTO RICANS HAVE TO BRING SOMETHING TO THE TABLE AS WELL AS BE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE OF WHATEVER HAPPENS.

FOR EXAMPLE, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT PUERTO RICO COULD CONTINUE TO BE, AND IS RIGHT NOW, NOT AS MUCH AS IT USED TO BE, BUT A HAVEN FOR PHARMACEUTICALS.

BUT THE PROBLEM IS THAT PHARMACEUTICALS HAVE LOOKED AT THAT HAVEN IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THE PROFITS AND PUTTING THEM IN A PLACE WHERE THEY DIDN'T PAY U.S. INCOME TAX.

SO I BELIEVE IN FREE ASSOCIATION.

BUT EVEN MORE THAN THAT, I BELIEVE IN A PROCESS OF SELF-DETERMINATION, WHICH, AS YOU MENTIONED, CONGRESS OCASIO-CORTEZ AND ANOTHER HAVE PUT FORTH, WHERE ALL OF THE VOICES IN PUERTO RICO WILL BE HEARD.

ONE OF THE THINGS THEY TELL US IS, THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PRO STATEHOOD, IS THAT WE WILL CONTINUE TO HAVE SPANISH, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO PARTICIPATE IN SUCH THINGS LIKE THE OLYMPICS, AND WE ALL KNOW THAT IS NOT TRUE.

SO ONE OF THE GOOD THINGS OF HAVING A PROCESS PUT FORWARD IS THAT CONGRESS FOR THE FIRST TIME WILL SAY YES OR NO TO HOW THEY WOULD PERCEIVE THE TRANSITION TO EACH ONE OF THESE OPTIONS.

>> Braude: ON THE STATEHOOD ISSUE, I'M SURE YOU SAW A RECENT POLL OF ALL AMERICANS THAT, SURPRISINGLY TO ME, BY A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT MARGIN, 45 TO 30, THEY SUPPORTED STATEHOOD, AND BY THE PUERTO RICAN THEMSELVES, IF THERE WAS A NARROW MARGIN FOR STATEHOOD, SO WHY COULD THERE NOT BE SOMETHING CRAFTED THAT WOULD ENSURE THE THINGS YOU WORRY ABOUT LOSING, LIKE THE LANGUAGE, FOR EXAMPLE, BE QUARANTINED IN RETURN FOR REPRESENTATION IN CONGRESS?

BY THE WAY, PEOPLE IN PUERTO RICO PAY PAYROLL TAXES.

THE ABILITY TO VOTE IN A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION -- WHY COULDN'T SUCH A DEAL BE CRAFTED THAT PROTECTED THE RIGHTS THAT YOU THINK ARE IMPORTANT BUT ALSO GRANTED FULL REPRESENTATION?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT COULD BE CRAFTED IN A FREE ASSOCIATION PACKAGE.

BUT I'LL ANSWER YOUR QUESTION: PUERTO RICO IS A NATION, INVADED BY THE UNITED STATES.

SO WHAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT IS NOT A CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE, BUT A HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUE.

IT IS DIFFERENT THAN D.C. D.C., WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUES.

I CAN UNDERSTAND FROM THE AMERICAN'S ADVANTAGE POINT, AND AFTER SEEING THE HORRIBLE SITUATION THAT TRANSPIRED IN PUERTO RICO, I CAN UNDERSTAND THAT MANY AMERICANS THINK THE ANSWER IS TO GIVE PUERTO RICO STATESHIDE.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A NATION THAT WAS INVADED.

TO GIVE THOSE PEOPLE, PUERTO RICANS, THE OPPORTUNITY TO DECIDE ON THE BASIS OF TRUE COMMITMENT.

I BELIEVE, AS YOU SAID, IT COULD BE CRAFTED A FREE ASSOCIATION.

>> Braude: UNDERSTOOD.

I ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT, BUT PEOPLE KNOW HOW YOU FELT ABOUT DONALD TRUMP, AND YOU SAID IN NUMEROUS INTERVIEWS THAT PEOPLE DIED BECAUSE OF HOW DONALD TRUMP TREATED THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO.

YOU WERE THE CO-CHAIR OF THE BERNIE SANDERS' CAMPAIGN.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT THE BIDEN PRESIDENCY 100 DAYS IN, PARTICULARLY AS RELATES TO PUERTO RICO?

>> FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT BERNIE SANDERS HAS PUT FORWARD A PEACE OF LEGISLATION THAT WILL ALSO HELP ALL OF THE TERRITORIES, NOT ONLY PUERTO RICO, ALL OF THE TERRITORIES, TO GAIN ACCESS TO CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE IN AIL INALIABLE RIGHTS.

THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION MOVES VERY HARD TO MOVE PAST THE SINS OF THE PAST.

THEY'RE TAKING STEPS TO ENSURE THAT THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO RECEIVE, AND AS YOU MENTIONED, THE MONEY THAT WAS COMMITTED AND THE MONEY THAT WE DESERVE.

MOST PEOPLE FORGET THAT FEMA -- IT'S AN INSURANCE.

AND A LOT OF THINGS THEY NEED TO DO, FROM THE STANDPOINT OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, LOOK AT WHAT WENT WRONG IN PUERTO RICO, DEVASTATINGLY WRONG, AND HOW WE CAN MOVE FORWARD IN SAVING LIVES.

SO I'M HOPEFUL THAT THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN STEPS, SOME NOT LITERALLY HAVING TO DO WITH PUERTO RICO, LIKE INCREASING THE MINIMUM WAGE TO $15 FOR EVERY CONTRACT.

THAT IS GOING TO BE NOT DIRECTLY TO PUERTO RICO, BUT IT WILL IMPACT THE PEOPLE OF PUERTO RICO.

>> Braude: CARMEN, YOU'RE AN INSPIRATION.

IT'S A PLEASURE TO MEET YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOF YOUR TIME.

FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU FOR THE OPPORTUNITY.

ONE LAST THING: THE AMERICAN PEOPLE NEED TO KNOW THAT WE KNOW THEIR HEARTS, WE KNOW THEY ARE HARD-WORKING PEOPLE, AND THAT I WILL NEVER FORGET THE 327 AFL WORKERS THAT LEFT THEIR HOMES TO FEED US AND TAKE CARE OF OUR WOUNDS AND MAKE SURE THAT MORE PEOPLE DID NOT DIE.

THAT, AS A PUERTO RICAN AND AS THE MAYOR, I WILL ALWAYS BE GRATEFUL.

>> Braude: GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> Braude: SINCE THE "MAKE WAY FOR DUCKLINGS" STATUES WERE INSTALLED IN THE PUBLIC GARDEN MORE THAN THREE DECADES AGO, THEY'VE BECOME PART OF THE FABRIC OF THIS CITY.

AND OVER THE YEARS, BOSTONIANS HAVE DRESSED UP THE DUCKS TO JOIN IN EVERYTHING FROM HOLIDAYS TO SPORTS CHAMPIONSHIPS, AND EVEN PANDEMIC SAFETY PRECAUTIONS.

NOW THE ARTIST BEHIND THEM IS OUT WITH A NEW BOOK OF PHOTOGRAPHS THAT DOCUMENTS IT ALL.

IT'S CALLED: "DUCKS ON PARADE."

SCULPTOR NANCY SCHON JOINS ME NOW.

>> Braude: NANCY, IT IS GREAT TO SEE YOU, AS ALWAYS.

>> WONDERFUL TO SEE YOU AGAIN.

>> Braude: WHEN YOU FIRST ASSEMBLED THIS, YOU SCULPTED IT AND ASSEMBLED IT, DID YOU EVEN CONSIDER THE NOTION THAT PEOPLE WERE GOING TO DECIDE THAT THIS WAS SOMETHING THEY SHOULD ADD TO IN THEIR OWN KIND OF WAY?

DID IT EVER EVEN OCCUR TO YOU?

>> NOT -- NO.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS PEOPLE -- GRANDMOTHERS, PARTICULARILY, STARTED SENDING ME PHOTOGRAPHS OF THEIR KIDS.

OVER THESE 30 YEARS, PEOPLE HAVE BEEN SENDING ME PHOTOGRAPHS OF THEIR KIDS ON THE DUCKS.

ALL OF A SUDDEN THEY STARTED SENDING ME PICTURES SORT OF DRESSED UP.

AND THEN IT GOT MORE AND MORE AND MORE.

FIRST IT STARTED WITH HATS.

AND THEN IT WAS EASTER.

AND THEN IT WAS SOME SORT OF POLITICAL THING.

IT JUST GREW.

I'M STILL GETTING THEM.

NOW WE HAVE A WHOLE -- I THINK WE CAN HAVE ANOTHER BOOK ALMOST ALREADY.

>> Braude: I HOPE YOU DO.

I'M A HUGE FAN OF PUBLIC ART, BUT I HAVE TO SAY THAT I'VE INTERVIEWED MANY PEOPLE WHO CREATE PUBLIC ART, LIKE YOU'VE DONE, AND THEIR PERSPECTIVE IS IT WAS INTENDED TO BE EXACTLY AS IT IS, NOT CHANGED BY EVEN PEOPLE WHO LOVE IT.

WAS THERE A PIECE OF YOU, AT THE BEGINNING, BACK IN THE 1980s, WHO FELT SOME SORT OF -- I DON'T KNOW HOW TO CALL IT, OWNERSHIP, NOTION THAT IT SHOULD BE EXACTLY AS IT WAS?

OR ARE YOU AM MEAN AM MENENABLE TO THESE WONDERFUL ADDITIONS?

>> IT NEVER OCCURRED TO ME.

OF COURSE, THIS IS WHAT IT IS FOR.

MY PERSPECTIVE IS THAT YOU TOUCH.

PUBLIC ART IS TO TOUCH, TO LOVE, TO HUG, TO INTERACT WITH, TO SIT ON.

WITH ALL OF MY WORKS, I TRIED TO DO THAT.

SO OF COURSE THINGS ARE GOING TO CHANGE.

OF COURSE.

>> Braude: I SHOULD NOT HAVE TO ANSWER THIS, BECAUSE I KNOW A LOT OF ABOUT YOU AND I'VE BEEN AN ADMIRER OF YOURS FOR DECADES, BUT IS THIS YOUR MOST PUBLIC ART PROJECT?

>> THIS WAS THE FIRST PUBLIC ART IN THIS SENSE.

PRIOR TO THAT I HAD DONE SOME WHAT I CALL MILLION-DOLLAR WALLS, THAT WERE LARGE MURALS FOR INSTITUTIONS TO HELP RAISE MONEY.

AND THEY WERE SORT OF SUBSTITUTES FOR THE TREE OF LIFE.

YOU KNOW HOW PEOPLE WOULD HAVE THESE TREES AND THEY WOULD HAVE A LITTLE LEAF OR SOMETHING.

>> Braude: SURE.

>> THIS IS WHAT -- I DID SOME OF THAT.

A LOT OF FUNDRAISING WAY, WAY BACK WITH INSTITUTIONS.

BUT THIS WAS THE FIRST ONE.

>> Braude: SO THE PHOTOGRAPHS WE SHOWED THE PEOPLE AT HOME A COUPLE OF MINUTES AGO WERE, AS I SAID, SPORTS THINGS, HOLIDAY THINGS, LET'S TAKE IT TO ANOTHER STEP.

HERE ARE, FOR EXAMPLE, THEM DRESSED UP AS MEMBERS OF THE SUPREME COURT.

NOT VERY POLITICAL BUT CREATIVE.

LET'S DO A LITTLE MORE POLITICAL.

THERE WAS, OF COURSE, THE WOMEN'S MARCH A FEW YEARS AGO, AND I GUESS YOU COULD DESCRIBE THESE HATS IN A NUMBER OF WAYS.

I'LL TAKE THE SAFE ROUTE AND CALL THEM PINK HATS.

AND ONE OF THE MORE POLITICAL IMAGES, OBVIOUSLY THE DUCKS IN CAGES AND WEARING ALUMINUM BLANKETS TO DRAW ATTENTION TO FAMILY SEPARATION.

I KNOW I'VE ASKED YOU THIS BEFORE, BUT YOU AREN'T TROUBLED BY POLITICAL EXPRESSION ON THE DUCKLINGS, EITHER?

>> NO.

I THINK IT IS WONDERFUL.

I THOUGHT THIS WAS ONE OF THE MOST WONDERFUL PORTRAYALS OF WHAT WAS GOING ON WITH THE KIDS DOWN IN TEXAS.

THIS WAS WONDERFUL.

UNFORTUNATELY, IT WASN'T UP LONG ENOUGH FOR MANY PEOPLE TO SEE IT.

AND I'M SO GLAD THAT WE WERE ABLE TO HAVE PICTURES OF IT.

>> Braude: SO AM I.

BUT IF IT TURNS OUT, NANCY, LET'S ASSUME -- I KNOW YOU'RE A FREE EXPRESSION KIND OF PERSON, AND LET'S ASSUME THAT THE EXPRESSION THAT WAS VISITED ON THE DUCKLINGS WAS NOT ONE YOU AGREED WITH.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS A BLACK LIVES MATTER SET OF EMBELLISHMENT ON THE DUCKLINGS.

IF IT WAS CRITICAL OF BLACK LIVES MATTER, BUT IT WAS AN EXPRESSION OF A POINT OF VIEW, ARE YOU OKAY WITH THAT?

OR ARE YOU NOT?

>> YOU AND I HAVE HAD THIS DISCUSSION -- >> Braude: I KNOW THAT.

THAT WAS A WHILE AGO.

>> AND, YES, OF COURSE.

THIS IS WHAT WE'RE ALL ABOUT.

THIS IS A DEMOCRACY.

AND WE HAVE TO MAKE THOSE CHOICES.

I HAVE TO SAY SOMETIMES IT WOULD BE VERY HARD FOR ME TO ACCEPT ANYTHING LIKE THAT.

IT HAPPENS WITH THE DUCKS AND WHAT HAS BEEN PUT ON.

IT HAS NOT BEEN DETRIMENTAL TO ANYBODY'S FEELINGS, I SUSPECT -- WELL, TO MY FEELINGS, ANYWAY.

>> Braude: SO AS AN ARTIST, YOU PROBABLY WON'T LIKE THIS QUESTION, BUT I'LL DO IT ANYWAY, AND YOU CAN FEEL FREE NOT TO RESPOND: IS THERE ANYTHING THAT HAS BEEN DONE TO THE DUCKS THAT IS YOUR FAVORITE, THAT REALLY IS THE ONE THAT STIRS THE FEELINGS OF WHATEVER IT IS MOST INSIDE YOU WHEN YOU SEE THAT IMAGE?

>> YOU KNOW, IT IS INTERESTING, I PARTICULARLY LOVE THE PHOTOGRAPH -- AND I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE IT -- OF THE CARD -- THE CHRISTMAS CARD THAT WAS SENT OUT BY THE FRIENDS OF PUBLIC ART.

IT'S JUST MARVELOUS.

THAT JUST MADE ME FEEL SO GOOD.

IT MAKES IT JUST LOVELY AND BEAUTIFUL.

>> Braude: EVERYBODY HAS TOLD YOU A THOUSAND -- MILLION TIMES HOW BEAUTIFUL THE WORK ITSELF IS, BUT I HAVE TO SAY THE BOOK REALLY ADDED A DIMENSION TO IT.

FOR THOSE WHO HAVE NOT SEEN ALL OF THIS, IT IS BEAUTIFUL.

CONGRATULATIONS ON IT, NANCY.

AND I CAN'T WAIT TO SEE WHAT YOU'RE DOING NEXT.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

I APPRECIATE IT.

>> Braude: GREAT TO SEE YOU.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "DUCKS ON PARADE."

YOU WILL LOVE IT.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW, AND I'LL TALK TO JEANNE BLACK AND MS. RAUSCH ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH IMPACTS THE PANDEMIC IS HAVING ON KIDS.

THAT AND MORE TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org