>> O'Connell: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WITH THE SUPREME COURT POISED TO OVERTURN "ROE V WADE," WHAT WILL THAT MEAN FOR ABORTION ACCESS ACROSS THE COUNTRY, AND HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS?

AND, WHAT MIGHT THE FUTURE HOLD FOR OUR MANY OTHER RIGHTS PROTECTED BY SUPREME COURT PRECEDENT?

THEN LATER, A MAN WELL-VERSED IN CONTROVERSY, WRITER AND FILMMAKER JOHN WATERS, WHO'S OUT WITH HIS FIRST NOVEL, "LIARMOUTH."

♪ ♪ ♪ >> O'Connell: IT'S A SHIFT MANY HAD PREDICTED-- SOME, GOING BACK TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ELECTION.

BUT IT DOESN'T MAKE WHAT'S HAPPENING ANY LESS SCARY FOR MANY, AS THE SUPREME COURT IS POISED TO STRIKE DOWN THE LANDMARK "ROE V WADE" DECISION THAT LEGALIZED ABORTION NATIONWIDE.

A LEAKED DRAFT OPINION FROM THE COURT WAS PUBLISHED BY POLITICO LATE LAST NIGHT, AND CONFIRMED TODAY BY CHIEF JUSTICE JOHN ROBERTS.

IN IT, JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO DECLARES "ROE" "MUST BE OVERRULED," ALONG WITH ANOTHER COURT RULING THAT FURTHER PROTECTED ABORTION ACCESS.

SO, ALTHOUGH SOME STATES LIKE MASSACHUSETTS HAVE THEIR OWN LEGISLATIVE PROTECTIONS, IF-- OR MORE LIKELY, WHEN THE SUPREME COURT RULING IS OFFICIALLY RELEASED, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE IN STATES WITHOUT SUCH LAWS WILL LOSE ACCESS TO SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTIONS.

AND THAT'S LIKELY TO HAVE A BIG RIPPLE EFFECT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, INCLUDING HERE, IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY JESSE MERMELL, FORMER V.P.

FOR EXTERNAL AFFAIRS FOR PLANNED PARENTHOOD OF MASSACHUSETTS, AND RENEE BRACEY SHERMAN, AN ABORTION-RIGHTS ACTIVIST AND THE AUTHOR OF RENEE, I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

YOU'RE THE AUTHOR OF "SAYING ABORTION ALOUD."

HOW DO WE GET HERE?

WHAT IS HAPPENING?

>> HONESTLY, WE'VE BEEN COMING TO THIS MOMENT FOR DECADES, RIGHT, BECAUSE OUR LEGISLATORS HAVE NOT TAKEN ABORTION ACCESS SERIOUSLY.

THEY HAVE NOT FOUGHT BACK AS HARD AS THEY CAN ON ALL OF THE RESTRICTIONS THAT WE'VE SEEN ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND THEY'VE NOT MADE ABORTION ACCESS A PRIORITY.

THEY HAVE NOT UNDERSTOOD HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO ALL OF THE RIGHTS THAT WE HOLD DEAR IN THIS COUNTRY.

I HAVE BEEN IN THIS MOVEMENT FOR 10 YEARS, AND I WAS DEFINITELY TOLD WE WOULD NEVER SEE THE END OF "ROE," AND YET HERE WE ARE.

BUT AN IMPORTANT THING IS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD UNDERSTAND THAT ABORTION IS STILL LEGAL.

THIS WAS JUST A DRAFT.

BUT, IT DOES SHOW WHAT THE COURT IS THINKING, AND THAT'S WHAT IS REALLY SCARY.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT ROLLING BACK "ROE VS. WADE" AND PLANNED PARENTHOOD, MAKING IT SO THAT NOT EVERYONE WILL HAVE ACCESS TO LEGAL ABORTION ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> O'Connell: JESSE, RENEE MAKES A POINT.

MANY PEOPLE WHO DON'T PREDICT WHAT THE SUPREME COURT WILL DO HAVE BEEN PREDICTING THIS BECAUSE OF WHO IS ON THE COURT.

THE ISSUE HERE IS HOW FAR IT SEEMS THEY WERE WILLING TO GO, EVEN IN A DRAFT MEMO, TO OVERRULE "ROE."

I WANT TO LOOK AT A "WASHINGTON POST" POLL THAT WAS RELEASED TODAY REGARDING VIEWS OF "ROE VS. WADE," THE QUESTION WAS: SHOULD THE SUPREME COURT UPHOLD OR OVERTURN "ROE VS. WADE"?

54% SAID UPHOLD.

28% SAID OVERTURN.

THESE NUMBERS HAVE BEEN PRETTY CONSISTENT OVER THE DECADES, WHICH MAKES US WONDER IF WE WERE BEING WARNED THAT "ROE VS. WADE" WOULD BE OVERTURNED, WHY HAVEN'T MORE PEOPLE TAKEN ACTION?

NOT ONLY THE LAWMAKERS, BUT ALSO CITIZENS?

>> LISTEN, SUE, AS YOU KNOW, THE WORDS "YOU WERE RIGHT" ARE SOME OF MY THREE FAVORITE WORDS IN THE ENGLISH LANGUAGE.

BUT I WAS NEVER SO DEVASTATED TO BE RIGHT AS I WAS WHEN THAT ALERT SHOWED UP ON MY PHONE.

WE HAVE BEEN SOUNDING THIS ALARM FOR DECADES.

12, 13 YEARS AGO, I WAS WORKING AT PLANNED PARENTHOOD LEAGUE IN MASSACHUSETTS, AND I SAT AT THE OFFICE OF A POWERFUL COMMITTEE MEMBER, ASKING FOR A BILL TO MOVE FORWARD TO PROTECT ABORTION RIGHTS HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS.

I AND OTHER ACTIVISTS TALKED TO THAT CHAIRMAN AND SAID, ROE IS IN JEOPARDY.

THE ACTIVISTS ON THE OTHER SIDE ARE CHIPPING AWAY AND SEEKING TO ULTIMATELY OVERTURN ROE.

AND THIS CHAIRMAN LITERALLY LAUGHED IN MY FACE.

AND I SEE RENEE NODDING HER HEAD, AND I'M GUESSING IT IS BECAUSE SHE AND SO MANY OF HER COLLEAGUES HAVE HAD THE EXACT SAME EXPERIENCE.

WE ARE HERE BECAUSE ACTIVISTS, LARGELY WOMEN, AND SO MANY OF THEM WOMEN OF COLOR, HAVE BEEN IGNORED.

IT IS A TALE AS OLD AS TIME.

AND, QUITE FRANKLY, SHAME ON US IF WE DON'T LEARN THIS LESSON.

AND, SUE, I WANT TO BE CLEAR: WE HAVE PROTECTIONS RIGHT NOW IN MASSACHUSETTS, BUT WE ARE ABOUT TO FACE A MAJOR CRISIS HERE AROUND ABORTION ACCESS, AS THE CRISIS AROUND THE COUNTRY SPILLS OVER INTO OUR BORDERS.

SO, DO NOT LET ANYONE THINK WE ARE SAFE AND NOT GOING TO FEEL THE RAMIFICATIONS OF THIS HERE IN THE COMMONWEALTH.

>> O'Connell: RENEE, WHO ARE THE PEOPLE MOST LIKELY TO BE ACCESSING ABORTION TREATMENTS THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY?

>> HONESTLY, EVERYONE WATCHING THIS LOVES SOMEONE WHO HAS HAD AN ABORTION.

PEOPLE HAVE ABORTIONS ALL OF THE TIME.

ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE HAVE AN ABORTION.

THE MAJORITY OF US ARE PEOPLE OF COLOR OR PEOPLE OF FAITH.

THE MAJORITY ARE ALREADY PARENTING.

AND WE NEED ACCESS.

IT IS SIMPLY ONE MOMENT IN OUR REPRODUCTIVE LIVES THAT ALLOWS US TO DECIDE IF, WHEN, AND HOW TO GROW OUR FAMILIES.

SEEING THIS RESTRICTION IS WHAT IS TERRIFYING BECAUSE IT IS NOT GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE WHO ARE SEEKING ABORTIONS ONLY, BUT IT IS GOING TO IMPACT PEOPLE WHO ARE EXPERIENCING MISCARRIAGES, I.V.S., ANYTHING RELATED TO PREGNANCY.

BECAUSE THEY ARE GOING FOR CONTRACEPTION, THEY'RE GOING FOR EVERYTHING.

THEY'RE GOING FOR MARRIAGE OF QUALITY.

TRANS RIGHTS.

THEY'RE GOING AFTER TRANSGENDER CHILDREN RIGHT NOW.

THIS IS ABOUT ALL OF OUR ABILITY TO CREATE OUR FAMILIES ON OUR OWN TERMS AND LIVE OUR LIVES AS FREE PEOPLE.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TAKE A QUICK LOOK AT THIS OTHER "WASHINGTON POST"/ABC NEWS POLL ABOUT VIEWS ABOUT WHO SHOULD REGULATE ABORTION.

THE QUESTION: "DO YOU THINK THE DECISION TO HAVE AN ABORTION SHOULD BE REGULATED BY LAW, OR SHOULD BE LEFT TO THE WOMAN AND HER DOCTOR?"

70% SAID WOMAN AND HER DOCTOR.

AND JESSE, I WAS LISTENING TO SOMEONE TODAY, A COUPLE OF EXPERTS ACTUALLY, TALKING ABOUT THE REASON WHY THE RIGHT TO ABORTION MAY NOT BE IN THE CONSTITUTION IS BECAUSE THE FOUNDERS ACTUALLY VIEWED IT AS A MEDICAL ISSUE, AND DIDN'T THINK IT SHOULD BE SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE INCLUDED.

HAVING SAID THAT, YOU KNOW, AS WE ENTER THIS MID-TERM-- MID-TERMS START NOW, MID-TERM PRIMARIES START NOW ACROSS THE COUNTRY IN SOME STATES.

IS THIS A WAKE-UP CALL TO DEMOCRATS, PROGRESSIVES, INDEPENDENTS, REPUBLICANS WHO ARE FAIR-MINDED AND ACTUALLY WANT TO PROTECT THE RIGHT TO CHOOSE?

IS THIS GOING TO GET PEOPLE OUT TO VOTE FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING TO UPHOLD "ROE VS.WADE"?

>> LET'S BE CLEAR, IT HAS TO BE.

THERE IS NO OTHER CHOICE IF WE WANT ANY CHANCE OF PROTECTING NOT JUST ACCESS TO ABORTION RIGHTS, BUT AS RENEE SO SMARTLY ARTICULATED, COUNTLESS OTHER RIGHTS THAT ARE TIED TO THIS.

IT IS ALL INTERCONNECTED, AND THE ANTI-ABORTION, FAR-RIGHT EXTREMIST MOVEMENT IS LOOKING TO GO AFTER ALL OF THEM.

SO, YES, IT IS NOT ABOUT PUTTING ON A NICE, PINK HAT AND MARCHING IN THE TREAT.

WE HAVE TO DO THE WORK.

DONATE TO CANDIDATES.

KNOCK ON DOORS.

VOTE.

I VOTED TODAY IN MY MUNICIPAL ELECTION IN BROOKLINE, BECAUSE EVERY ELECTION IS AN ELECTION ABOUT ABORTION RIGHTS FROM HERE ON OUT.

AND SUE, THAT POLL YOU JUST PUT UP, PLUS THE DATA YOU SHOWED A FEW MINUTES AGO, MAKES SOMETHING REALLY CLEAR: AMERICANS SUPPORT ABORTION RIGHTS.

AND THEY UNDERSTAND IT IS A DECISION BETWEEN THE PERSON HAVING AN ABORTION AND THEIR DOCTOR, PERIOD.

FULL STOP.

WHAT IS HAPPENING IS THE WORK OF FAR-RIGHT EXTREMISTS WHO HAVE TAKEN OVER THE SUPREME COURT AND ARE ADVANCING THEIR AGENDA.

THIS DOES NOT REFLECT THE WILL OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE.

AND IF WE ORGANIZE AND GET TO WORK, WE CAN DO EVERYTHING POSSIBLE TO STOP IT AND TURN THIS AROUND, EVEN IF IT TAKES TIME.

WE CAN DO THE WORK AND MAKE IT HAPPEN.

>> O'Connell: RENEE, I SAW WHAT I THOUGHT WAS SOME LEGITIMATE CRITICISM ON TWITTER, OF ALL PLACES, ABOUT THE MEDIA.

AND HOW, WHEN THE MEDIA HAS BEEN COVERING ABORTION RIGHTS AND ABORTION ACCESS OVER THE PAST, AT LEAST 10 TO 15 YEARS, WE TEND TO PRESENT IT AS THIS CONTROVERSIAL SUBJECT, AND WE TEND NOT TO SPEAK DIRECTLY ABOUT THE IMPACTS OF ABORTION, BOTH POSITIVE AND NEGATIVE.

AND AT A TIME WHEN, I THINK, WE'RE AT THE LOWEST NUMBERS OF ABORTION PER CAPITA THAT THE COUNTRY HAS EVER SEEN, DO YOU THINK THE MEDIA HAS DONE A VERY POOR JOB HERE IN EXPLAINING AND TALKING ABOUT ABORTION IN A WAY THAT MOST AMERICANS, YOU KNOW, THE NUMBERS THAT THEY'RE SHOWING HERE, THE 60% WHO SUPPORT THE RIGHT TO ABORTION -- THAT WE'RE JUST DOING A BAD JOB?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK, FOR A LONG TIME, THE REASON I SHARED MY ABORTION STORY FOR THE FIRST TIME IS BECAUSE I'D READ ABOUT ABORTION AND NOT SEE ANYONE WHO SOUNDED LIKE ME, LOOKED LIKE ME, WAS EVEN SAYING "I HAD AN ABORTION," AS PART OF THE CONVERSATION.

OUR VOICES NEED TO BE HEARD.

AND IF WE'RE NOT PART OF THAT, IF ABORTION IS ONLY TALKED ABOUT AS A THEATRICAL ISSUE AND NOT SOMETHING THAT EVERYONE KNOWS SOMEONE IS HAVING, IT IS NOT A MEDICAL DECISION, THEN PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO UNDERSTAND IT.

I ALSO THINK IT IS REALLY IMPORTANT THAT PEOPLE UNDERSTAND TALKING ABOUT IT SOLELY AS A POLITICAL ISSUE, AND NOT THE MEDICAL CARE THAT IT IS.

NOT TALKING ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH THE ANTI-ABORTION MOVEMENT IS USING FAKE SCIENCE AND ALL SORTS OF LIES TO PUSH MISINFORMATION ABOUT ABORTION.

AND IT IS TREATED AS IF IT IS JUST A DIFFERENCE OF OPINION.

THAT IS TERRIFYING.

AND WE NEED JOURNALISTS, ESPECIALLY RIGHT NOW, TO SHOW UP WITH FACTS AND INFORMATION AND THE STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE ABORTIONS, SO THAT EVERYONE KNOWS WHAT'S AT STAKE.

AND SO WE CAN TRULY LIBERATE ABORTION FOR ALL, FOR REAL THIS TIME.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO PLAY SOME SOUND NOW FROM SENATOR MAZIE HIRONO, SHE IS A DEMOCRAT FROM HAWAII.

AND SHE WAS SPEAKING TODAY ABOUT HOW SHE THINKS THE NEXT PROTECTION TO FALL WILL BE MARRIAGE EQUALITY.

>> I THINK WHAT'S NEXT IS OBERGEFELL, WHICH IS A MARRIAGE EQUALITY ACT.

THOMAS AND ALITO ALREADY SAID THEY WOULD.

>> O'Connell: I GUESS IT WAS SETTLED IN THEIR HEAD THEY WANTED TO OVERTURN IT.

NONE OF US ARE LEGAL EXPERTS, BUT WE CLEARLY UNDERSTAND HOW THE INTERCONNECTIVITY OF THE SOME OF THESE RIGHTS ARE.

WHY SHOULD PEOPLE WHO THINK THAT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND RIGHT TO CONTRACEPTION ARE THINGS WE SHOULD HAVE GUARANTEED-- WHY ARE PEOPLE WORRIED ABOUT THAT NOW, BASED ON THIS DRAFT?

>> BECAUSE JUSTICE SAMUEL ALITO LITERALLY TOLD US IN NO UNCERTAIN TERMS THAT THAT IS WHAT THEY'RE COMING FOR NEXT, RIGHT?

HE CITED THE CASE.

HE MADE CLEAR THAT HE CONSIDERED IT JUST AS WEAK OF AN ARGUMENT AS HE CONSIDERED "ROE" TO BE, CERTAINLY NOT AGREEING WITH THAT ASSESSMENT, JUST RELAYING WHAT HE ARTICULATED.

AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT TRANS RIGHTS ARE UNDER ATTACK RIGHT NOW-- NOT SOMETHING HAPPENING DOWN THE ROAD.

IT IS SOMETHING THAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

WE KNOW THAT THIS FAR-RIGHT EXTREMIST IS CURRENTLY COMING AFTER THE L.G.B.T.Q.+ COMMUNITY.

THAT WOULD BE MARRIAGE, TRANSGENDER RIGHTS, AND SO MANY OTHER PROTECTIONS.

IT IS CONNECTED TO ABORTION RIGHTS.

IT IS CONNECTED TO INTERRACIAL MARRIAGE, WHICH WE HAD A UNITED STATES SENATOR BRING UP AS SOMETHING THAT SHOULD BE SENT BACK TO THE STATES A FEW WEEKS AGO.

IT IS CONNECTED TO VOTING RIGHTS.

IF YOU CARE ABOUT ANY OF THESE THINGS, FOR YOURSELF, FOR SOMEONE YOU LOVE, OR JUST FOR HUMANITY, YOU NEED TO OPEN YOUR EYES, PAY ATTENTION AND GET ACTIVE, BECAUSE EVERYTHING IS IN JEOPARDY.

THAT'S NOT READING BETWEEN THE LINES.

THAT IS WHAT THE CONSERVATIVES ARE TELLING US, CLEAR AS DAY.

>> O'Connell: RENEE, AS WE CLOSE, WHAT IS ONE THING SOMEONE CAN DO TODAY TO WORK TO GUARANTEE ABORTION RIGHTS?

>> I'M NOT GOING TO GIVE YOU ONE.

I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THREE.

ONE, SHARE YOUR ABORTION STORY.

YOUR STORY DESERVES TO BE HEARD.

TWO, WE NEED PEOPLE TO SHOW UP AND SUPPORT THEIR LOCAL ABORTION FUND AND THEIR LOCAL ABORTION CLINICS.

AND, THREE, WE NEED EVERYONE TO UNDERSTAND THAT OUR PAST DOESN'T HAVE TO BE OUR FUTURE WHEN IT COMES TO "ILLEGAL" ABORTIONS.

PEOPLE CAN SAFELY SELF-MINISTER ABORTION WITH ONE PILL AND FOUR OTHER PILLS.

THE RISK IS IN CRIMINALIZATION.

SO WE NEED TO TALK ABOUT THE OVERCRIMINALIZATION OF HEALTH CARE IN THIS COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY ABORTION, AS WE MOVE INTO THIS NEXT MOMENT.

>> O'Connell: JESSE MERMELL, RENEE BRACEY SHERMAN, THANKS.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING US.

>> O'Connell: NO STRANGER TO PUSHING THE POP-CULTURE ENVELOPE, MY NEXT GUEST KNOWS HOW TO GET AN AUDIENCE THINKING AND TALKING.

FROM "PINK FLAMINGOES," WHICH JUST CELEBRATED ITS 50-YEAR ANNIVERSARY, AND "HAIRSPRAY," THE MUSICAL PHENOMENON THAT WENT ON TO BECOME A BROADWAY HIT, AMONG THE 40-PLUS FILMS HE HAS EITHER DIRECTED, WRITTEN OR ACTED IN, TO THE MORE THAN A DOZEN BOOKS HE'S SOMEHOW PUT OUT IN ALL OF HIS SPARE TIME.

AND NOW, HE'S OUT WITH HIS DEBUT NOVEL, "LIARMOUTH: A FEEL-BAD ROMANCE."

THE MAN BEHIND IT ALL, THE GREAT JOHN WATERS, JOINS ME NOW.

JOHN, SO GREAT TO MEET YOU.

I CAN'T BELIEVE IT HAS BEEN THIS LONG.

>> THANK YOU.

I KNOW.

I'M GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> O'Connell: IT TOOK WRITING SOME FICTION IN ORDER FOR US TO MEET.

WHAT I LOVE ABOUT THE ATTITUDE ABOUT THIS-- ABOUT WRITING THIS BOOK, YOU HADN'T DONE FICTION YET, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

I MEAN, MOVIES ARE FICTION.

I'VE ONLY DONE MOVIES I WROTE.

I WRITE EVERY YEAR, BUT NOT WHERE I PLAY EVERY CHARACTER, AND I CAN THINK LIKE THAT AND LIVE LIKE THAT.

SO IT WAS A DARE TO ME.

LIKE, I HITCHHIKED ACROSS THE COUNTRY, I TOOK L.S.D.

WHEN I WAS 70, FOR MY LAST BOOK.

I THINK YOU HAVE TO CHALLENGE YOURSELF.

AS YOU GET OLDER, EVEN MORE.

>> O'Connell: WHAT IS THE BOOK ABOUT?

TELL US ABOUT THE CHARACTERS AND THE STORY LINES-- >> IT IS ABOUT A WOMAN NAMED MARSHA SPRINKLE WHO STEALS SUITCASES AT AIRPORTS.

AND SHE LIVES WITH HER "BOYFRIEND" THAT SHE SLEEPS WITH ONCE A YEAR.

SHE IS NO MAN'S USED UP CALENDAR.

AND AS THEY GO TO THE AIRPORT, HE PRETENDS HE IS THE CHAUFFEUR, AND THEY STEAL LUGGAGE OFF OF THE CAROUSELS, WHICH IS EASY TO DO THESE DAYS.

SO IN THE BEGINNING THEY GET CAUGHT, AND THEY ARE ON THE RUN.

SHE IS TRYING TO ROB HER DAUGHTER, WHO IS OBSESSED BY TRAMPOLINING.

A WOLE CULT OF OBSESSED.

AND SHE IS TRYING TO GET BACK AT HER MOTHER, WHO IS A-- WHO DOES FACE LISTS ON PETS, AND WHO LIVES IN NEW YORK, AND HER EX-HUSBAND WHO LIVES IN PROVINCETOWN.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT SUBCULTURES, BECAUSE I THINK ALL OF YOUR WORK, AND SOME OF THE GREATEST EXPLORATIONS OF OUR LIVES, HAS TO DO WITH YOU LOOKING THROUGH THE LENS OF SUBCULTURES.

AND THE SUBCULTURE OF TRAMPOLINE-- >> I'M TRYING TO MAKE FUN OF THE RULES OF WEIRDO COMMUNITIES, WHO SOMETIMES HAVE MORE RULES THAN I GREW UP WITH MY PARENTS.

ESPECIALLY TODAY, WITH EVERYTHING HAVING TO BE SO POLITICALLY CORRECT.

WHICH I THINK I AM POLITICALLY CORRECT.

AND WE MADE FUN OF IT, AND WE WENT OVERBOARD.

THE PEOPLE WHO LIKE TO TRAMPOLINE, ARE THEY ALLOWED TO GO ACROSS STATE LINES BOUNCING, AND MOVING SIDEWAYS, AND THEY HAVE CARS THAT THEY BOUNCE IN.

AND THEY CAN'T SLEEP UNLESS THEIR IN A WATERBED BECAUSE THEY'RE MOVING.

I TAKE AN EXCEPTION-- JUST LIKE IN "PINK FLAMINGOS" AND I TAKE SOMETHING AND HOPEFULLY MAKE IT FUNNY, BECAUSE I WANT TO GET YOU TO LAUGH AT THE RULES YOU LIVE BY AND RESPECT.

>> O'Connell: DO YOU FIND IT FASCINATING THAT WE'RE AT THIS POINT NOW WHERE 50 YEARS AGO, THE THINGS YOU WERE WRITING AND EXPLORING, GETTING YOU ARRESTED AND GETTING BANNED, THE WORST THING IN THE WORLD-- NOW FAST FORWARD 50 YEARS, "PINK FLAMINGOS," THE GREATEST THING EVER WRITTEN, INSTITUTIONAL, AND EVERYONE MUST HAVE IT AS PART OF OUR CANON.

AND YOU'RE WRITING ABOUT THINGS IN THE SAME WAY AND IT IS ALMOST LIKE THE PEOPLE HAVEN'T REALLY CHANGED, BUT WHAT THEY'RE ANGRY ABOUT HAS AND WHAT THEY'RE PUSHING THE RULES DOWN ON OTHERS-- THOSE RULES HAVE CHANGED.

>> WELL, THEY SWITCHED.

THEY SWITCHED WHO THE CENSORS ARE.

I HAVEN'T CHANGED.

THIS BOOK IS NO DIFFERENT THAN "PINK FLAMINGOS."

AMERICAN HUMOR HAS CHANGED.

UP UNTIL NOW, AND NOW THE GOOD HUMOR THAT I'VE ALWAYS LIKED FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WAS LENNY BRUCE, AND WENT ON TO ALL OF THE COMEDIANS THAT CAUSED TROUBLE, PUSHED THE EDGE, WHAT CAN YOU GET AWAY WITH?

AND WHAT IS THAT EDGE YOU CAN GET AWAY WITH?

WHAT IS THAT?

HOW CAN I DO IT WITHOUT FALLING OVER THE CLIFF?

AND THE MAIN WAY TO DO IT IS YOU MAKE FUN OF YOURSELF FIRST.

AND I MAKE FUN OF THINGS I LOVE AND NOT THAT I HATE.

BEING MEAN-SPIRITED CAN BE FUNNY FOR 20 MINUTES, OR FUNNY FOR 50 PAGES, BUT NOT AN HOUR AND A HALF OF A MOVIE OR 200 PAGES OF A BOOK.

>> O'Connell: HOW HAS EARNESTNESS CHANGED?

IF AT ALL?

IT IS FASCINATING TO ME TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE SO DUG IN ABOUT THEIR POINT OF VIEW, AND IT IS AROUND THE ENTIRE SPECTRUM-- IT IS.

I HATE PEOPLE WHO SAY, I HATE >> IT IS.

I HATE PEOPLE WHO SAY, I HATE WHEN I WAS YOUNG, BECAUSE THAT MEANS YOU ARE OLD.

WE WENT TO JAIL FOR FREE SPEECH, WE RIOTED FOR FREE SPEECH.

AND TODAY, SOME OF THE MOST LIBERAL ARE AGAINST FREE SPEECH.

I THINK TRUMP SHOULD BE ABLE TO SPEAK ON Facebook.

I THINK THE ANTIFA SHOULD BE ABLE TO SPEAK.

THE WORST GAY CRITIC-- EVERYBODY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SPEAK.

JUST DON'T GO, DON'T LISTEN TO THEM, BOO, THEM.

YES, THERE IS PORNOGRAPHY THAT IS OBSCENE.

DON'T LOOK AT IT.

WE HAVE TO PUT UP WITH THAT.

AND I THINK THAT WHAT MAKES-- I'M A PATRIOT PERSON DOWN LOW.

WHEN I FIRST SAW THE PATRIOT BOYS, I THOUGHT IT WAS A TOUGH CAT, HOW THEY DRESSED-- I THOUGHT THEY LOOKED LIKE DRAG QUEENS OR SOMETHING.

>> O'Connell: THE WHOLE EROTICA OF THE 1960s-- OF THE JAN. 6 SCENE-- >> WE RIOTED WHEN I WAS YOUNG.

WE DID WORSE.

WE HAD FUN.

PEOPLE I KNOW SET BOMBS IN THE CAPITOL.

WE DID WORSE STUFF.

BUT, OF COURSE, IT IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE ILLEGAL.

IT IS ALWAYS SOMETHING YOU'LL REGRET LATER IN LIFE.

ANTIFA, I'M JUST TOO OLD TO RUN FROM THE TEAR GAS.

BUT I LOVE THE SHIELDS MADE OUT OF TRASH CANS WITH DUCT TAPE ON THEM.

IT IS A GOOD LOOK.

>> O'Connell: LET'S TALK ABOUT QUEERNESS, QUEER TO QUEER.

HERE WE ARE, WE'RE SITTING AT A BIG DESK TALKING ABOUT YOUR GREAT 50 YEARS OF WORK, RIGHT HOW DO YOU STAY QUEER?

>> I WAS NEVER A SEPARATIST.

I DID A PIECE THAT SAID, GAY IS NOT ENOUGH.

IT IS A GOOD START.

I THINK PROGRESS IS ADMITTING BAD GAY MOVIES.

I KNOW SOME JERKS THAT ARE GAY.

NOT EVERYONE PERSON-- I LIKE TO HEAR THE EXTREMES OF EVERY GROUP OF PEOPLE.

AND THE PEOPLE I MADE MOVIES OF WITH IN THE BEGINNING WERE SUBURBAN KIDS WHO WENT BAD, WHO HUNG AROUND WITH BEATNIKS, AND BLACK PEOPLE.

AND WE LISTENED TO EACH OTHER, A MIXED CROWD, THAT'S HOW YOU GET STRONG.

I THINK GAY PEOPLE FIGHTING WITH EACH OTHER, NOW, WE'RE WEAKENING THE BRAND OF PERVERT.

WE REALLY ARE.

>> O'Connell: WHAT IS YOUR REACTION TO WHAT IS HAPPENING IN FLORIDA?

>> I SAY, I WANT TO DO DON'T SAY "STRAIGHT."

UNTIL THEY'RE IN FIFTH GRADE, WHEN THEY CAN MAKE UP THEIR MINDS ON THEIR OWN.

I'M ALWAYS TRYING TO DO THE OPPOSITE AND MAKE FUN OF IT.

BUT THAT'S HOW YOU MAKE THEM LOOK STUPID.

YOU MAKE YOUR ENEMY LOOK STUPID.

AND THAT'S HOW YOU FIGHT A WAR, WITH HUMOR.

>> O'Connell: SATIRE HAS BEEN CRITICIZED OFTEN BY SOME THAT IT DOESN'T REALLY EDUCATE OR ENLIGHTEN THE PEOPLE YOU HOPE.

IF THEY AGREE, YES, HE'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, THOSE PEOPLE ARE "X," "Y," "Z,"... >> I DON'T KNOW...

THE ONLY THING THAT MADE ME LAUGH IS WHEN TRUMP CALLED HER POCAHONTAS.

AND THE OTHER THING, WHO WAS THE LIBERAL CONGRESSWOMAN WHO GOT MUGGED, AND THEY SAID, I HOPE SHE CALLED A SOCIAL WORKER.

THAT IS FUNNY TO ME.

EVEN THOUGH I CAN'T STAND THOSE PEOPLE, AND I READ THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" EDITORIALS, YOU NEED TO BE OPEN TO LISTEN TO SMART PEOPLE, EVEN IF YOU DO NOT AGREE WITH THEM AT ALL, SO YOU KNOW HOW TO FIGHT BACK.

I HAD DEBATING TEAM IN HIGH SCHOOL.

BASICALLY, HOW YOU WIN IS YOU MAKE PEOPLE LAUGH AND THEY'LL LISTEN.

>> O'Connell: I LIKE THE IDEA OF OTHERHOOD, OTHERNESS, AND WHEN WE WERE YOUNG AND L.G.B.T.Q., AND ATTRACTED A NUMBER OF FOLKS WHO MAY NOT BE L.G.B.T.Q., BUT ALSO FELT THAT OTHERHOOD-- >> WELL, NOW, NO.

IF YOU GO TO THE GAY PRIDE PARADE IN NEW YORK, THERE IS NO GAY PEOPLE, IT IS JUST FAMILIES SHOWING THEIR TOLERANCE.

I THINK WE SHOULD SCARE EACH OTHER AGAIN, AND I KNOW HOW.

GAY MEN AND LESBIANS, LET'S START HAVING SEX AND THAT WILL REALLY FREAK PEOPLE OUT.

>> O'Connell: DISNEY-- >> DISNEY HAD TO GO THE OTHER WAY.

AND THEY LOOSENED UP BECAUSE EVERYBODY RAN TO SPIELBERG'S COMPANY-- WHY ARE ANIMATORS MOSTLY ALL GAY?

IT'S NOT THAT I'M MAKING A BLANKET STATEMENT, BUT IT IS LIKE HAIRDRESSERS.

AND PRESS AGENTS.

I DON'T KNOW THAT MANY STRAIGHT MALE PRESS AGENTS.

>> O'Connell: WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE BODY OF YOUR CAREER, WITH ALL THESE VARIED ARTISTIC ENDEAVORS AND SUCCESSES, IS THERE A PLACE THAT YOU THINK-- WE'RE TALKING ABOUT YOU BEING ADVENTUROUS AND GOING OUT AND DOING MORE THINGS, OR DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY OR NEW AVENUES, IS THERE A PLACE YOU FEEL HOME-- >> I FEEL HOME TELLING STORIES.

TO ME, WRITING A BOOK OR MAKING MOVIES, I FEEL EQUALLY AT HOME IN BOTH THOSE WORLDS.

WHEN I'M PERFORMING-- SPEAKING.

I HOSTED IN LAS VEGAS A GIANT ROCK-A-BILLY.

I PLAYED IN ATLANTIC CITY FOR MY BIRTHDAY.

I PLAYED IN THE MADONNA INN IN SAN LUIS OBISPO.

I HAD A "CRY BABY" EASTER.

SO I AM COMPLETELY OPEN TO TRAVELING AROUND THE WORLD.

I WENT TO POLAND THIS YEAR.

THE BEST THING HAPPENED IN POLAND, THIS OLD CRUISESHIP MAN, HE SAID, I LIVED HERE WHEN IT WAS ALL COMMUNIST AND I SAW A COPY OF "CRY BABY," AND WHEN I SAW WILLEM DAFOE SLAP JOHNNY DEPP ON THE ASS, I KNEW I WAS GAY.

I THOUGHT IT WAS THE OPPOSITE!

I'M, LIKE, HOW DO YOU KNOW THESE MOVIES?

SO NEXT YEAR I'M GOING ALL OVER THE WORLD SHOWING THIS STUFF.

IT IS REALLY KIND OF AMAZING WHEN KIDS COME UP TO ME AND SAY HOW MUCH I HELPED THEM.

AND I WROTE A BOOK CALLED "ROLE MODELS," ABOUT PEOPLE WHO HELPED ME REALLY BELIEVE I COULD DO WHAT I WANT TO DO.

AND THERE IS A WAY TO DO IT.

YOU JUST HAVE TO BE OBSESSED BY IT.

IT'S NOT EASY, YOU HAVE TO THINK YOU CANNOT NOT DO IT.

>> O'Connell: ONE OF THE EXCITING THINGS AS A PARENT IS WATCHING MY 21-YEAR-OLD DISCOVERING THINGS I LOVED OR TURNING HER ON TO ART THAT I LOVE, AND WATCHING ONE OF YOUR MOVIES AND WATCHING HER REACTION IS ALWAYS GOING TO BE ONE OF MY FAVORITE THINGS ON THE FACE OF THE EARTH.

DOES IT GIVE YOU JOY TO KNOW THERE IS ANOTHER GENERATION-- >> CERTAINLY.

BUT WHAT SHOCKS ME IS PEOPLE WHO SAY TO ME, MY PARENTS SHOWED ME YOUR MOVIES.

THEY DID?

WHEN I GREW UP, THE PARENTS CALLED THE POLICE WHEN THEY FOUND MY MOVIES.

SO THAT IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

AND SO IT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT NOW, THE PEOPLE, WHERE IT IS COMING FROM.

WHEN I SAW THEM, NO PARENT LIKED THEM.

I MEAN, MY PARENTS DIDN'T LIKE THEM.

WHAT PARENT WOULD BE PROUD THEIR SON MADE "PINK FLAMINGOS?"

EVEN TODAY.

>> O'Connell: WELL, ON TIK TOK-- >> THAT'S A PLACE IN PROVINCETOWN.

THAT'S OUT OF NOWHERE.

>> O'Connell: LET'S TAKE A PIVOT AND GO RIGHT THERE.

BUT ON TIK TOK, WHICH DIFFERENT THAN THAT-- MAYBE NOT SO MUCH-- PARENTS ARE SO INVOLVED IN THEIR KIDS' CREATIVE PROCESSES, EVEN WHICH IS QUESTIONABLE BY TODAY'S STANDARDS, IS THE EXPOSURE OF CREATIVITY THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA, IS IT SOMETHING THAT IS EXCITING TO YOU?

>> WELL, THERE IS A LOT OF-- I'M ON SOCIAL MEDIA, BUT I DON'T LOOK ON Facebook.

I DON'T CARE WHAT YOU HAD FOR LUNCH.

AND-- AND I HAVE 10-HOUR DAYS AS IT IS.

I DON'T HAVE TIME TO DO THAT, RIGHT?

AND I REALLY DON'T UNDERSTAND-- WHAT IS THE OTHER ONE WHERE PEOPLE TYPE EVERY DAY?

I'M NOT GIVING AWAY PLY MATERIAL FOR FREE EVERY DAY.

THAT'S WHAT I HAVE TO SELL.

WHAT AM I GOING TO PUT IN MY BOOK, AND ON MY SHOWS?

IF I'M ON INSTAGRAM DOING JOKES EVERY DAY.

THAT'S A MYSTERY TO ME, WHY PEOPLE GIVE AWAY THEIR MATERIAL.

>> O'Connell: THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS YOU'RE SO SUCCESSFUL-- THE MONETIZATION.

>> WHAT I SELL IS MY IDEAS AND MY HUMOR.

I USUALLY DO PRESS BECAUSE I HAVE A NEW PROJECT OUT AND I WANT PEOPLE TO SEE IT.

IT TOOK ME THREE YEARS TO WRITE THIS BOOK.

SO, I HOPE PEOPLE SEE IT.

AND I WANT THEM TO BE ABLE TO LAUGH AT THE SAME TIME, BUT LAUGH WITH ME.

THEY'RE NOT LAUGHING AT SOMETHING.

THEY'RE LAUGHING WITH A GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE THEIR SENSE OF HUMOR, AND SHARED SENSE OF HUMOR REALLY BRINGS PEOPLE TOGETHER.

>> O'Connell: IT IS OUT NOW?

>> IT CAME OUT YESTERDAY.

>> O'Connell: JOHN WATERS, THANKS.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "LIARMOUTH: A FEEL-BAD ROMANCE."

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, BUT COME BACK TOMORROW, WHEN WE'LL LOOK AT HOW A BOSTON NON-PROFIT IS FOCUSING ON MENTAL HEALTH AS A MAJOR DRIVER OF STREET VIOLENCE, HELPING FORMER GANG MEMBERS LEARN A NEW SET OF SKILLS THAT USUALLY GET LITTLE ATTENTION.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org