>> BRAUDE: TONIGHT ON "GREATER BOSTON," COMING TO YOU FROM THE BOSTON PUBLIC LIBRARY: I'M JOINED LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ, WHO WAS SENTENCED TO LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE FOR MURDER AT AGE 17, AND THE EXECUTIVE PRODUCER BEHIND THE PULITZER PRIZE-WINNING PODCAST ON HIS STORY, JOURNALIST MARIA HINOJOSA.

THE TWO MET BACK IN 1993, AND WENT ON TO DEVELOP AN UNUSUALLY CLOSE SOURCE-REPORTER RELATIONSHIP, CHRONICLED IN THE PODCAST.

THEN LATER, THE "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTERS BEHIND A NEW BOOK ON TRUMP'S FINAL YEAR IN OFFICE-- AND BIDEN'S FIRST-- AND THE FRAGILE STATE OF AMERICAN DEMOCRACY WE'VE SEEN THROUGH BOTH: "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

>> BRAUDE: WE'VE SPOKEN WITH SEVERAL MEN ON THIS SHOW OVER THE YEARS WHO'VE BEEN NEWLY RELEASED FROM PRISON, AFTER SPENDING THE MAJORITY OF THEIR LIVES THERE, AND BELIEVING THEY WOULD DIE THERE.

THAT'S THE CASE AS WELL FOR MY NEXT GUEST, DAVID LUIS GONZALEZ, KNOWN TO MOST AS "SUAVE."

HE WAS CONVICTED OF MURDER IN PHILADELPHIA BACK IN 1988, AND WAS SENTENCED TO LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE AT JUST 17 YEARS OLD.

HE SPENT MORE THAN 30 YEARS IN PRISON, UNTIL A COMBINATION OF SUPREME COURT CASES PROMPTED HIS RELEASE: THE FIRST, IN 2012, DECLARED LIFE WITHOUT PAROLE FOR MINORS TO BE CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

AND THE SECOND, IN 2016, MADE THAT FIRST RULING RETROACTIVE.

THAT'S WHEN SUAVE BECAME ELIGIBLE FOR PAROLE, AS HE TOLD JOURNALIST MARIA HINOJOSA ON THE PHONE SHORTLY AFTER LEARNING THE NEWS: >> WHAT'S GOING ON?

I THOUGHT WE WERE GOING TO TALK AT 2:00.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I WANTED TO LET YOU KNOW THAT THE JUDGE TOLD THE LAWYER THIS MORNING-- WE DON'T HAVE TO WAIT NO LONGER.

>> BRAUDE: HIS CASE IS THE SUBJECT OF A PODCAST FROM PRX AND FUTURO MEDIA, APTLY TITLED "SUAVE," WHICH WAS AWARDED THE PULITZER PRIZE FOR AUDIO REPORTING EARLIER THIS MONTH.

DAVID LUIS "SUAVE" GONZALEZ AND MARIA HINOJOSA JOIN ME NOW.

CONGRATULATIONS AND GOOD TO MEET YOU BOTH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME AND SUAVE.

>> Braude: SUAVE, WHEN YOU FIRST MET MARIA, WHEN SHE CAME TO SPEAK AT THE FACILITY IN WHICH YOU WERE HELD IN 1993, YOU THOUGHT YOU WERE GOING TO DIE IN PRISON.

IS THAT NOT CORRECT?

YES, I WAS PREPARED TO DIE.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I MET MARIA, YOU KNOW, I JUST WANTED TO HEAR THE PERSON I WAS HEARING ON THE RADIO, I JUST WANTED TO SEE THAT PERSON.

>> Braude: WHAT WAS THAT LIKE WHEN YOU FINALLY GOT TO SEE HER IN PERSON?

>> IT WAS LIKE MEETING AN ANGEL BECAUSE, FROM THE MINUTE SHE WALKED INTO THE CHAPEL IN THE AUDITORIUM FOR GRADUATION, I JUST FELT A CONNECTION, AND I THOUGHT, I GOT TO HEAR WHAT SHE'S GOT TO SAY.

>> Braude: LET'S ASK THE ANGEL ABOUT THIS RELATIONSHIP.

YOU KNOW, MARIA, WHEN YOU FIRST MET SUAVE, YOU KNEW YOU WERE DEALING WITH A MAN WHO WOULD NEVER GET OUT OF PRISON, AND THAT RELATIONSHIP CONTINUED FOR DECADES.

HOW DID YOU DEAL WITH THE FACT THAT YOU WERE A FREE PERSON WORKING WITH A MAN WHO YOU KNEW WOULD NEVER EXPERIENCE FREEDOM?

>> WELL, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, SUAVE AND I, IN OUR MULTIPLE PHONE CALLS OVER THE DECADES, WE DIDN'T REALLY TALK ABOUT, SO WHAT'S IT FEEL LIKE THE FACT YOU'RE GOING TO BE IN PRISON FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE AND YOU'RE NEVER GOING TO GET OUT?

>> Braude: BUT YOU HAD TO THINK ABOUT IT.

>> WE DID THINK ABOUT IT, IT WAS A REALITY, BUT IF YOU UNDERSTAND THE PRISON -- THE RELATIONSHIP WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE BEHIND BARS, YOU ACTUALLY DON'T WANT TO SPEND ALL THE TIME TALKING ABOUT HOW HORRIBLE THE SITUATION IS.

>> Braude: YEAH.

SO WE WOULD MOSTLY JUST TALK ABOUT LIFE AND WHAT WAS GOING ON AND THEN, OF COURSE, SUAVE GRADUATED WITH A GO AHEAD, AND THEN TOOK 16 YEARS TO GET HIS BACHELOR'S DEGREE.

SO THOSE ARE THE KINDNESS OF THINGS WE WOULD TALK ABOUT.

>> Braude: SUAVE, I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THAT FOR A SECOND.

YOU CAME INTO PRISON UNABLE TO READ, YOU TAUGHT YOURSELF HOW TO READ, THEN COMMITTED YOURSELF TO TEACHING OTHERS HOW TO READ, YOU BECAME A NOTED PAINTER.

WHAT WAS THE MOTIVATION, WHEN YOU, AGAIN, KNEW YOU WOULD NEVER GET TO USE ANY OF THOSE THINGS IN THE FREE WORLD?

>> BUT I WAS FREE BECAUSE THE TIME THAT I SPENT TALKING TO MARIA, I WAS FREE.

EVERY TIME I CALLED MARIA, SHE WAS IN A DIFFERENT STATE, A DIFFERENT CITY SOMEWHERE.

I WAS FREE.

MARIA'S FRIENDSHIP OFFERED ME THAT FREEDOM, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE FREEDOM DON'T NECESSARILY MEAN THAT YOU'RE OUT HERE IN SOCIETY.

IT'S IN THE MIND.

ONCE I WAS ABLE TO FREE MY MIND AND BELIEVE ONE DAY I COULD BE PHYSICALLY FREE, IT WAS POSSIBLE.

BUT I WAS FREE.

AS FAR AS TEACHING MYSELF TO READ AND WRITE, THAT WAS A NECESSITY.

THE MOMENT WAS WHEN I GOT THE LETTER FROM MY MOTHER AND I COULDN'T READ IT, I SAID, I'M GOING TO LEARN TO READ AND WRITE AND USE THIS TIME-WISELY, AND I DID.

AND THE MOTIVATION TO TEACH OTHERS HOW TO READ AND WRITE IS BECAUSE I NEVER EVER WANT TO SEE ANOTHER JUVENILE END UP INEN PRISON BECAUSE THEY CAN'T READ AND WRITE AND THAT'S EXACTLY WHAT HAPPENED TO ME.

>> Braude: SUAVE, LET'S TALK ABOUT THE PHYSICAL, NOT THE FIGURATIVE FREEDOM.

WHEN YOU FIRST HEARD THE SUPREME COURT'S DECISION THAT MIGHT LEAD TO YOUR FREEDOM AND ULTIMATELY DID, WHAT WAS THAT LIKE INSIDE?

HOW DID YOU FEEL?

>> I WAS HAPPY BUT AT THE SAME TIME SCARED BECAUSE I'M LEAVING EVERYTHING I'VE KNOWN FOR 31 YEARS, ENTERING A NEW SOCIETY.

SO I WAS REALLY SCARED.

I WAS HAPPY TO COME HOME BUT SOMETIMES I WAS SCARED.

THERE WAS NIGHTS WHEN I WAS IN MY HOUSE AND I WISHED I WAS BACK IN PRISON BECAUSE I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT TO DO.

I WAS REALLY SCARED.

IT WAS A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE.

EVERYBODY THINKS COMING HOME SHOULD BE CELEBRATED.

NO, IT'S A TRAUMATIC EXPERIENCE COMING HOME AFTER YOUR MIND HAS BEEN PROGRAMMED TO JUST PRISON AND COUNT TIME.

SO I WAS REALLY SCARED.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, SPEAKING OF THE TIME IN PRISON AND BEING SCARED, WHEN YOU GOT OUT AND YOU VISITED THE SCENE OF THE CRIME, IT TURNS OUT YOU LIKELY DIDN'T EVEN COMMIT THE CRIME.

HERE'S A LITTLE SOUND FROM THE PODCAST ABOUT YOU TELLING MARIA THAT YOU TOOK THE FALL FOR SOMEBODY ELSE.

>> I TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR IT.

>> PERO, PERO, PERO, POR DIOS, SUAVE!

HOLD ON A SECOND.

WELL, WHAT REALLY WENT ON?

>> I TOOK A CASE FOR PEOPLE!

I TOOK A CASE!

IF YOU HANG WITH SOMEBODY, AND SOMETHING GOES DOWN, YOU KEEP YOUR MOUTH SHUT.

THAT'S HOW I WAS BROUGHT UP.

>> Braude: AND THE SOMEONE WAS THE FATHER OF YOUR GIRLFRIEND WHO WAS THE LEAD DRUG DEALER WHO SAID HE WOULD TAKE CARE OF YOUR FAMILY WHEN YOU WERE AWAY.

MARIA, COULD YOU WRAP YOUR ARMS AROUND THAT REALITY?

COULD YOU UNDERSTAND THAT?

>> I COULD UNDERSTAND IT WELL, THE WHOLE SCENARIO, BUT, IN THAT MOMENT, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND, FOR SUAVE SO BASICALLY BE ABLE TO SAY, NO,ING LOOK, THIS IS WHAT HAPPENED, I DIDN'T EVEN PULL THE TRIGGER, IT WASN'T ME, THIS WAS SHOCKING.

FOR ME AS NOW SOMEBODY WHO CARED ABOUT SUAVE, IT'S LIKE YOU SPENT 31 YEARS IN PRISON, AND SUAVE WILL SAY FOR A KIND OF CODE, FOR RESPECTING A CODE.

AND THAT IS HARD TO WRAP YOUR HEAD AROUND, THAT SOMEBODY THAT YOU KNOW NOW WOULD SPEND 31 YEARS IN PRISON FOR A CRIME HE DID NOT COMMIT.

>> Braude: SUAVE, IF YOU ENCOUNTERED A 17-YEAR-OLD KID IN PHILADELPHIA IN THE EXACT SAME SITUATION YOU FOUND YOURSELF IN WHERE YOU DECIDED TO TAKE THE CASE, WHAT WOULD YOU TELL HIM OR HER?

>> DON'T DO IT.

DON'T DO IT.

IT'S NOT WORTH IT BECAUSE THERE IS NO CODE ON THE STREETS.

YOU KNOW, I WAS BROUGHT UP THAT IF SOMETHING HAPPENED AND YOU WERE IN A GROUP, YOU TAKE THE CASE IF YOU GET BUSTED FIRST.

BUT AS YOU GROW OLD IN PRISON, YOU KNOW, YOU THINK ABOUT THAT, AND WAS IT WORTH IT?

NO.

WOULD I DO IT AGAIN?

NO.

SO I WOULD TELL A 17-YEAR-OLD, 15-YEAR-OLD KID, DON'T DO IT, DON'T EVEN PUT YOURSELF IN THAT POSITION, YOU KNOW, BUT DON'T DO IT.

DO NOT DO IT.

IT'S NOT WORTH IT.

>> Braude: YOU KNOW, MARIA, ONE OF THE REMARKABLE THINGS ABOUT THIS PODCAST, THIS STORY, IS THE RELATIONSHIP, A VERY UNUSUAL RELATIONSHIP IN JOURNALISM BETWEEN YOU AND SUAVE.

YOU DEVELOPED A REALLY CLOSE RELATIONSHIP WITH HIM, AND IT'S EVIDENCED BY THIS BACK AND FORTH WHEN YOU WERE PRETTY UPSET AT HIM FOR NOT CALLING ENOUGH.

HERE IT IS.

>> ANYWAY, HOW YOU DOING?

I MISS YOU, THAT'S HOW I'M DOING.

IT'S LIKE YOU DON'T CALL ANYMORE.

YOU WOULD CALL ME AT LEAST ONCE OR TWICE A WEEK.

>> MARIA.

IT'S, LIKE, NOW I GUESS YOU'RE TOO GODDAM BUSY.

>> NO, LISTEN, MARIA.

AND I THINK, IS HE OKAY, DID SOMETHING HAPPEN TO HIM?

DID THEY COME AND TAKE HIM AWAY?

>> SO HOW YOU DOING?

I'M GREAT.

DID YOU SEE ME ON TELEVISION?

>> NO!

WHAT CHANNEL?

>> MSNBC.

SEE?

YOU DON'T CALL SO YOU DON'T KNOW, YOU DON'T FOLLOW ME ON INSTAGRAM, YOU'RE TOO BUSY BEING ON YOUR PHONE TO EVEN TALK TO YOUR SISTER.

>> Braude: SO, MARIA, YOU TOOK SOME CRITICISM FOR THIS RELATIONSHIP.

WHAT'S THE MORAL TO THE STORY, IF THERE IS ONE, FOR OTHER JOURNAL IPSIS AND THEIR RELATIONSHIPS WITH THEIR SUBJECTS.

>> AS JOURNALISTS, WE HAVE TO REMIND OURSELVES HUMANITY IS ONE OF THE TOOLS IN OUR TOOL BELTS.

SUAVE WAS A CERT, HE WAS GOING TO BE IN PRISON FOR THE REST OF HIS LIFE.

JOURNALISTS CAN NEVER GET INTO PRISONS.

IT WAS CLEAR THERE WAS GOING TO BE A SOURCE-JOURNALIST RELATIONSHIP.

BUT LIKE YOU LEARNED IN THE PODCAST, I ALSO SAW HIM AS A YOUNG MAN WHO WAS GOING TO BE SOMEPLACE WHERE I HAD THE ADDRESS AND I KNEW WHERE HE WAS GOING TO BE EVERY CHRISTMAS.

SO TAKING HIS CALLS, SENDING HIM CHRISTMAS CARDS, THAT WAS ABOUT -- I MEAN, IN MANY WAYS, IT WAS LIKE BEING A MOM, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST KIND OF BEING A HUMAN BEING, AND I THINK THAT THE REASON WHY THE SUAVE PODCAST WON THE PULITZER IS IT'S BASICALLY SAYING MAYBE THERE'S SOMETHING ABOUT THE JOURNALIST-SOURCE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.

(BARKING) THAT'S MY DOG BENITO.

SORRY.

>> Braude: THAT'S OKAY.

THAT'S WHAT YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND.

IT CAN'T BE AS SIRM AS OBJECTIVE OBJECTIVITY.

IT'S MORE COMPLICATED THAN THAT.

>> Braude: WHAT'S THE ADJUSTMENT ON THE OUTSIDE BEEN LIKE FOR YOU.

>> GOOD AND HARD.

THERE'S CHALLENGES, LEARNING NEW TECHNOLOGY, FINDING SUITABLE EMPLOYMENT, MAKING SURE THAT I DON'T VIOLATE MY PAROLE BECAUSE I'M STILL ON PAROLE FOR THE REST OF MY LIFE.

SO IT'S A BIG ADJUSTMENT, BUT I HAVE A GREAT SUPPORT TEAM, I HAVE GREAT FRIENDS THAT I CAN CALL AT ANYTIME OF THE HOUR, AND THEY WILL TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT MARIA JUST DID IN THAT PHONE CALL -- WHY HAVEN'T YOU CALLED?

WHY DON'T YOU CALL MORE OFTEN?

>> Braude: HOW DID IT FEEL, SUAVE, TO FINALLY BE IN THAT CLASSROOM OF MARIAS AT DePAUL THAT YOU HAD ONLY KNOWN FROM AFAR BEFORE?

>> IT WAS A DREAM COME TRUE BECAUSE GETTING TO THAT CLASSROOM WAS MY FIRST PLANE RIDE EVER.

YOU KNOW, SO THAT WAS A CHALLENGE GETTING ME ON A PLANE.

SO IT WAS A DREAM COME TRUE TO FINALLY MEET STUDENTS THAT I HAVE BEEN TALKING ON A PHONE FOR YEARS.

>> Braude: DO YOU FEEL GUILT, SUAVE, AT ALL, ABOUT THE PEOPLE YOU LEFT BEHIND?

>> I DO.

I DO.

I DO.

>> Braude: HOW DO YOU DEAL WITH THAT?

>> I MEAN, I DEAL WITH IT BY DOING THE SAME THING THAT MARIA DID FOR ME, SENDING CHRISTMAS CARDS AND ACCEPTING PHONE CALLS, NO MATTER WHERE I'M AT I WILL ACCEPT THE PHONE CALLS AND MAKE SURE THAT THEY KNOW THAT THERE'S SOMEBODY OUT HERE THAT CARES FOR THEM BECAUSE, SOMETIMES, I WONDER AND THAT QUESTIONS ALWAYS COME UP, DID MARIA CROSS THE LINE WITH HER SOURCE?

SOMETIMES I WONDER IF MARIA WAS WHITE, IF THE SAME QUESTIONS WOULD COME UP, IF SHE WAS A DIFFERENT JOURNALIST OF A DIFFERENT RACE, RIGHT.

BUT, AGAIN, I THINK THAT WHAT I LEARNED FROM MARIA AND FROM THE RELATIONSHIP THAT WE MANAGED TO BUILD SINCE I WAS OUT OF PRISON, BECAUSE MARIA ALWAYS SAID IT, AND IT'S THE TRUTH, YOU KNOW, FOR A LOT OF YEARS, I WAS JUST A SOURCE, WE WASN'T REALLY FRIENDS.

I WAS SOMEBODY THEY CALLED, SHE ANSWERED BUT WE WASN'T REALLY FRIENDS.

SO I TRIED TO BE THAT PERSON SHE WAS FOR ME TO THE BROTHERS THAT CALL ME INSIDE.

THAT'S HOW I DEAL WITH THAT GUILT AND I ALSO DO GOOD, MEANING THAT WHATEVER WORK THAT WE DO, IT'S A REPRESENTATION OF THEM.

>> Braude: MARIA, OTHER THAN PARTICIPATING IN THE TELLING OF AN INCREDIBLE STORY, WHAT DO YOU HOPE TO HAVE ACHIEVED WITH THIS PODCAST?

>> WE HAD SOME STIFF COMPETITION TO WIN THIS PULITZER, AND I THINK WHAT HAPPENED IS THERE WAS A RECOGNITION THAT ACTUALLY JOURNALISM THAT HAS HEART, THAT HAS HUMANITY, JOURNALISM THAT SEES HUMANITY IN SOMEBODY THE REST OF SOCIETY SAYS WE'RE IN FOR LIFE, WE DON'T CARE ABOUT YOU, YOU DON'T MATTER AT ALL, AND I THINK IT'S A NATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT THE KIND OF JOURNALISM THAT MATTERS AT THIS POINT WHEN WE AS JOURNALISTS HAVE TO REALLY WORK HARD TO WIN THE TRUST OF OUR VIEWERS AND OUR LISTENERS.

>> Braude: WELL, THAT'S WHAT CAME ACROSS TO ME.

SUAVE, AND MARIA, CONGRATULATIONS ON THE AWARD ON THE PODCAST, AND IT WAS REALLY A JOY TO MEET YOU BOTH.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU, THANK YOU.

.

>> Braude: AGAIN, THE PODCAST IS "SUAVE"."

YOU CAN LISTEN WHEREVER YOU GET YOUR PODCASTS.

BUT, I SHOULD NOTE, FOR THOSE WHO FOUND ALL THIS HOPEFUL, AND THINK THE COURTS WILL KEEP MOVING TOWARD ENSURING REAL JUSTICE?

ALLOW ME TO CORRECT THE RECORD.

ANOTHER SUPREME COURT RULING LAST YEAR, AUTHORED BY JUSTICE KAVANAUGH, DECLARED A JUDGE WHO IS NOT REQUIRED TO SENTENCE A JUVENILE TO DIE IN PRISON, BUT RATHER CHOOSES TO DO SO, DOES NOT VIOLATE THE BAN ON CRUEL AND UNUSUAL PUNISHMENT.

I DON'T GET IT, EITHER.

NEXT UP-- TO SAY THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION AND ITS AFTERMATH HAVE BEEN CHAOTIC WOULD BE AN UNDERSTATEMENT OF EPIC PROPORTIONS.

BUT NOW, WE'RE GETTING NEW INSIGHTS INTO THE REAL DEPTH OF THAT CHAOS, BEYOND THE INSURRECTION AND EFFORTS TO OVERTURN AN ELECTION WE ALL KNOW ABOUT, WE'RE LEARNING MUCH MORE ABOUT THE DEEP DIVIDES WITHIN BOTH PARTIES.

LIKE WHEN NANCY PELOSI CLAIMED "OBAMA IS JEALOUS OF BIDEN"-- THAT WAS WHEN THE CURRENT PRESIDENT WAS STILL SEEN AS TRANSFORMATIONAL-- OR WHEN WOULD-BE SPEAKER KEVIN MCCARTHY SAID HE WOULD URGE PRESIDENT TRUMP TO RESIGN AFTER THE INSURRECTION, IN LEAKED AUDIO RECORDINGS.

THESE ARE JUST SOME OF THE BEHIND-THE-SCENES MOMENTS BEING REVEALED IN THE NEW BOOK, "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

THE AUTHORS ARE "NEW YORK TIMES" NATIONAL CORRESPONDENTS JONATHAN MARTIN AND ALEXANDER BURNS, WHO JOIN ME NOW.

ALEX, JONATHAN, CONGRATULATIONS AND THANK YOU BOTH FOR RUINENNING MY WEEKEND.

I APPRECIATE IT.

(LAUGHTER) >> A WEEKEND WELL SPENT!

>> Braude: EXACTLY.

A BEACH RAID.

>> Braude: THE SUBTITLE OF YOUR BOOK IS TRUMP, BIDEN AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE, I THINK YOU COULD HAVE ADDED "IF THERE IS ONE."

WHEN YOU TWO WERE REPORTING AND WRITING THE BOOK, IS THAT NOT WHAT YOU WERE THINKING EVERY NIGHT AT THE END OF YOUR WORK, ALEX?

>> ONE WAY TO LOOK AT THE TITLE IS THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA TO HAVE A FUTURE AND SECURE THE FUTURE TO HAVE THE COUNTRY.

THERE ARE MULTIPLE VISIONS OF AMERICA AND ONE IS DONALD TRUMP SORT OF QUASI STRONG MAN VIEW OF GOVERNMENT AND THE OTHER IS A MORE NOSTALGIC AND CONVENTIONAL JOE BIDEN.

BOTH OF THOSE APPROACHES OBVIOUSLY IN VERY DIFFERENT WAYS HAVE FALLEN SHORT OF THE POLITICAL MOMENT, AND THE BATTLE TO DEFINE WHAT COMES NEXT IN SO MANY WAYS IS ONLY JUST STARTING.

>> Braude: JONATHAN, WE SEE McCARTHY, WE KNEW HUMILIATING HIMSELF, GOING DOWN TO MAR-A-LAGO BENDED KNEE THING, DOUBLY HUMILIATING HIMSELF ABOUT WHAT HE SAID.

LINDSEY GRAHAM, TRUMP PUTS HIM ON SPEAKER WITHOUT TELLING HIM.

WHY DO SO MANY REPUBLICAN LEADERS TOLERATE BEING HUMILIATED AT THE HAND OR FEET OF DONALD TRUMP AND STILL PLEDGE LOYALTY TO THE LEADER.

>> TWO IMPORTANT ISSUES, ONE IS RELEVANCE.

I THINK KEVIN McCARTHY AND LINDSEY GRAHAM WANT TO BE IN THE ROOM, AS THEY SAY, SUCKING UP TO TRUMP AND EVEN HUMILIATING THEMSELVES IS PART OF THE BARGAIN COMING TO TRUMP.

IN THE BOOK WE HAVE AN EXTRAORDINARY SCENEY LINDSEY GRAHAM IS PUT ON SPEAKERPHONE BY DONALD TRUMP AND TOLD TO PERFORM AND TOLD THE PEOPLE THERE TO INTERVIEW DONALD TRUMP NOT JUST HOW GREAT A POLITICIAN DONALD TRUMP IS BUT HOW GOOD A GOLFER TRUMP IS.

I THINK TRUMP LIKES TO DO THAT TO PEOPLE TO PROVE TO PEOPLE THAT THEY ARE HIS SUPPLICANTS, TO DO SO IN A MOST EXCRUCIATING FASHION.

I THINK THE OTHER REASON IS STRAIGHT-FORWARD POLITICS.

REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS BELIEVE THEIR VOTERS ARE STILT BESOTTED BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND THEREFORE THE POLITICIANS HAVE TO PLEDGE LOYALTY TO DONALD TRUMP.

I THINK TOMORROW IF KEVIN McCARTHY BELIEVED THE RANK IN FILE G.O.P.

VOTER IN AMERICA HAD ENOUGH OF DONALD TRUMP, THE PARTY WOULD GLADLY MOVE ON FROM DONALD TRUMP.

THIS IS AN EXAMPLE OF LEADERS FOLLOWING VOTERS WHEN IT COMES TO TRUMP AND THE G.O.P.

>> Braude: CAN A G.O.P.

LEADERSHIP THAT AT LEAST IN PRIVATE HAS UTTER CONTEMPT FOR TRUMP AND A G.O.P.

ELECTORATE THAT SEEMS TO STILL LOVE HIM, HOW LONG CAN THAT CO-EXISTENCE STAND?

>> WELL, WE'RE ABOUT SEVEN YEARS AND COUNTING NOW, RIGHT?

LOOK, I MEAN, I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO IN THIS BOOK IS A LOT OF FOLKS, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF YOUR VIEWERS, I HAVE PROBABLY HEARD AND READ FOR YEARS THAT REPUBLICAN LEADERS CANNOT STAND DONALD TRUMP AND THE THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT HIM IN PRIVATE IS NOTHING LIKE THE WAY THEY TALK ABOUT HIM IN PRIVATE.

AND I THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTANDABLY HAVE GOTTEN TIRED OF HEARING THAT AND SKEPTICAL OF THE REPORTING THAT SUGGESTS THAT BECAUSE SURELY PEOPLE WHO GENUINELY HAD A PROBLEM WITH DONALD TRUMP WOULD NOT SORT OF KISS THE RING AND OTHER THINGS AS THEY DO AGAIN AND AGAIN.

BUT I THINK WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THIS BOOK IS THEY TALK ABOUT HIM DIFFERENTLY IN PRIVATE AND I DON'T THINK IT'S SUSTAINABLE FOREVER, PARTICULARLY IF HE RUNS FOR PRESIDENT AGAIN AND SORT OF SIGNALS AT THE OUTSET THAT HE WON'T ACCEPT THE OUTCOME OF THE ELECTION UNLESS IT'S A VICTORY FOR HIM.

I THINK WE'VE SEEN IN THE PRIMARIES THIS MONTH, INCLUDING MOST SIGNIFICANTLY IN GEORGIA, EVEN REPUBLICAN PRIMARY VOTERS, THERE'S A LIMIT TO HOW MUCH THEY WANT TO TALK ABOUT DONALD TRUMP'S GRIEVANCES ABOUT THE PAST.

>> Braude: ALEX, STAYING WITH YOU ONE SECOND, OTHER THAN THE LUNATICS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THE MARJORIE TAYLOR GREEN FACTION, DO ANY OF THE LEADERS IN THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ACTUALLY BELIEVE THE ELECTION WAS STOLEN AS THEY'RE WILLING TO SAY PUBLICLY TO MAKE DONALD TRUMP HAPPY?

>> I THINK THE SHORT ANSWER IS NO.

I THINK THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE REPUBLICAN HEART WHO BELIEVE THERE IS MORE FRAUD THAN IS DEMONSTRATED, I BELIEVE THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO SINCERELY BELIEVE THAT.

I DON'T THINK WE ENCOUNTERED ONE PERSON IN THIS BOOK WHOM WE INTERVIEWED OR OBTAINED ANY REPORTING IN THIS BOOK TO SUGGEST ANYONE IN THE ABSOLUTE LEADERSHIP TO HAVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY OTHER THAN DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF AND THE REAL INNER OLDER COMMITTED PALACE GUARD TRULY BELIEVE THERE'S ANY DOUBT THAT JOE BIDEN IS THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES.

>> Braude: JONLTEN, ONE TO HAVE THE THINGS THAT'S MOST TERRIFYING YOU TOUCH ON, JOINT WHETHER IN THE INTRODUCTION OR WHEREVER, YOU MENTIONED A NUMBER OF UNELECTED LEADERS WHO STOOD UP TO DONALD TRUMP AND THWARTED THE WORST -- FAUCI, GENERAL MILLEY, ET CETERA -- I HAD FORMER SECRETARY OF DEFENSE ESPER ON THE RADIO THE OTHER DAY AND IT'S THE SAME SORT OF THEME.

IT WAS INDIVIDUALS DOING THE RIGHT THING, WE BELIEVE, AGAIN, TO THWART THE WORST OF DONALD TRUMP, BUT THERE WERE NO INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS IN PLACE THAT, IF THEY WEREN'T THERE, AND IT APPEARS THAT EVEN ON BIPARTISAN THINGS LIKE THE ELECTORAL FORMAT, WHATEVER, THERE'S NO INTEREST IN CONGRESS IN CREATING THE INSTITUTIONAL GUARDRAILS, SO WE CONTINUE TO BE DEPENDENT UPON THE GOOD BEHAVIOR AND GOOD WILL OF UNELECTED INDIVIDUALS.

IS THAT THE SORRY STATE OF AFFAIRS?

>> OR IN THE CASE OF MIKE PENCE, ELECTED.

I THINK JANUARY SIXTH COULD HAVE BEEN A LOT WORSE, PHYSICALLY IT WOULD HAVECOULD HAVE BEEN A LOT WORSE, THERE COULD HAVE BEEN PEOPLE ASSAULTED AND KILLED.

BUT JANUARY SIXTH COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE IF MIKE PENCE BENDS TO THAT PRESSURE.

I THINK OUR PRECIOUS DEMOCRACY WAS BASICALLY IN THE HANDS OF MIKE PENCE THAT DAY, AND, YOU KNOW, IF NOT FOR MIKE PENCE'S GOOD JUDGMENT IN THAT HOUR, WE WERE FACING A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS IN THE MOST IMPORTANT DEMOCRACY ON EARTH, TELLS YOU ABOUT THE RELIANCE ON INDIVIDUALS AND JUST HOW CORRODED OUR INSTITUTIONS HAVE BECOME.

THIS IS THE BIG QUESTION COMING FORWARD AND WHY THIS BOOK IS SO IMPORTANT, THIS IS NOT ABOUT HISTORY.

THIS IS ABOUT TODAY AND TOMORROW AS MUCH AS IT IS ABOUT YESTERDAY.

THIS IS A CURRENT STORY.

THERE'S A REASON WHY WE CALL THE BOOK THIS WILL NOT PASS.

WE'RE STILL LIVING THROUGH THE STRESS TEST TO OUR DEMOCRACY AND WE'LL SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT AS SOON AS POTENTIALLY 2024.

>> Braude: YOU'RE PRETTY EVEN HANDED IN THE BOOK, YOU DON'T SPARE THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY EITHER, NO LEVELS OF ACCUSATIONS OF CORRUPTION EITHER.

JOE BIDEN WILLING TO SETTLE THE DIFFERENCES WHICH ARGUABLY A PRESIDENT WOULD HAVE IN TERMS OF THE PROGRESSIVE AND MORE MAINSTREAM WING OF HIS PARTY, THE ATTEMPT TO BE BOTH A HEALER AND A TRANSFORMATIONAL PRESIDENT, WHICH MAY BE OXYMORONIC KIND OF THING, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HOW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY IS PORTRAYED IN YOUR BOOK, ALEX?

>> I THINK YOU DID A PRETTY GOOD JOB RIGHT THERE, JIM.

I THINK WE SAW THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RIDE TO POWER IN 2020 WITH THIS BROAD AND IN MANY WAYS UNWIELDY COALITION THAT GOES ALL THE WAY FROM BERNIE SANDERS AND A.O.C.

ON THE FAR LEFT TO FORMER BUSH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS IN THE POLITICAL SECTOR, AND THE ONLY THING THAT REALLY UNITED THEM WAS THE SENSE THAT DONALD TRUMP WAS A DANGEROUS PRESIDENT WHO COULDN'T BE ALLOWED TO KEEP POWER.

I THINK WHAT WE SHOW IN THE BOOK IS JOE BIDEN AND HIS PARTY NEVER FUSED THAT ANTI-TRUMP COALITION INTO SOMETHING MORE COHERENT AND DURABLE THAT ALLOWS THEM TO OPERATE THE GOVERNMENT IN A RELIABLE WAY.

I DON'T THINK THAT WE SPARE EITHER SIDE IN THIS BOOK.

I ALSO THINK THAT WE'RE VERY VERY CLEAR THAT THE TWO SIDES ARE NOT EQUIVALENT IN THEIR DEFECT AND IN THE DEPTH AND THE NATURE OF THEIR DEFECTS, BUT THE REALITY IS THAT YOU BELIEVE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS FUNDAMENTALLY BROKEN AND DANGEROUS BECAUSE IT'S ENTHRALLED TO THIS DISGRACED FORMER DEMOING GO DONALD TRUMP -- DEM ADOG DONALD TRUMP.

THE BURDEN IS ON THE DEMOCRATS TO SHOW PEOPLE THERE'S ANOTHER WAY.

>> Braude: AS I READ THE BOOK OVER THE WEEKEND, I READ A QUOTE FROM MALCOLM TURNBULL, FORMER PRIME MINISTER OF AUSTRALIA, YOU KNOW THE GREAT LINE, THIS IS NOT US, THIS IS NOT AMERICA?

YOU KNOW WHAT, IT IS ACTUALLY.

RIGHT AFTER I READ THAT, I WENT ONLINE AND SAW AN INTERVIEW YOU TWO DID ON THE CBS MORNING NEWS, AND YOU SAID SOMETHING, JONATHAN, LIKE THE OPTIMISTIC TAKE ON THIS IS VOTERS CONTROL THEIR DESTINY, BUT I WOULD ARGUE THEY DON'T CONTROL THEIR DESTINY.

CAMPAIGN FINANCE LAWS, VOTER SUPPRESSION LAWS, A SUPREME COURT THAT DOESN'T GIVE A DAMN WHERE THE AMERICAN PEOPLE ARE OVERWHELMINGLY ON ISSUE AFTER ISSUE, LIKE ABORTION, FOR EXAMPLE.

SO HOW DO THE VOTERS IN AMERICA IN 2022 AND BEYOND CONTROL THEIR DESTINY?

>> I MEAN, I'M REFERRING TO DONALD TRUMP WHO LOST THE PRESIDENCY AND LOST BOTH CHAMBERS OF COMMERCE.

WE GET THIS QUESTION A LOT FROM PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT THE BOOK, WHICH IS WHEN IS DONALD TRUMP GOING TO FACE ACCOUNTABILITY?

FROM A LEGAL RECOMMEND, I CAN'T LITIGATE THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM JUDICIALLY.

BUT CLEARLY, DONALD TRUMP AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY PAID A PRETTY SEVERE PRICE FOR THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

THEY LOST THE PRESIDENCY IN BOTH CHAMBERS OF CONGRESS, ALMOST ENTIRELY AS A REBUKE OF DONALD TRUMP HIMSELF.

SO I THINK THERE HAS BEEN SOME ACCOUNTABILITY.

BUT, LOOK, ARE THERE STRUCTURAL CHALLENGES FOR DEMOCRATS IN THIS COUNTRY, PARTICULARLY GIVEN THEIR INABOUT TO WIN A LOT OF THE RURAL VOTERS WHO 15 YEARS AGO WERE WINNING COMFORTABLY?

THERE ABSOLUTELY ARE.

BUT I THINK, CLEARLY, DEMOCRATS HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THE WIDE DISDAIN FOR DONALD TRUMP IN AMERICA.

BUT AS ALEX MENTIONED A MINUTE AGO, THEY HAVE NOT YET FIGURED OUT A WAY TO DO SO IN A COHERENT WAY IN PART, YES, BECAUSE OF THEIR TIGHT MAJORITY BUT ALSO IN PART BECAUSE THEIR COALITION IS SO UNGAINLY RIGHT NOW.

AND I THINK BIDEN HAS NEVER TAKEN A SIDE BETWEEN THE KIND OF MODERATE ANTI-TRUMP WING THAT JUST WANTS TO TRY TO MAKE INCREMENTAL PROGRESS IN THE MORE PROGRESSIVE, IDEOLOGICAL WING, BUT WANTS TO REMAKE THE COUNTRY.

BIDEN NEVER PUT IN WITH EITHER CAMP WHO'S PAYING THE PRICE TODAY.

>> Braude: 30 SECONDS LEFT.

SPEAKING OF VOTERS HAVING THEIR SAY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY ON ABORTION, CLIMATE CHANGE, GUN SAFETY MEASURES, THEY'RE ABOUT TO RETURN CONGRESS, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, TO POWER TO CONGRESS QUICKLY.

CAN YOU EXPLAIN THAT?

>> IT IS AN UNFORTUNATE REALITY THAT WE EVER A BINARY POLITICAL SYSTEM.

IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE WAY THINGS ARE GOING WITH THE PARTY IN POWER YOU ONLY HAVE ONE OTHER ALTERNATIVE, AND PEOPLE OFTEN PULL THE LEVER WITHOUT LOOKING AT THE POLICIES INVOLVED.

AFTER THAT THEY REGISTER WHAT POLICIES ARE INVOLVED AND GO BACK TO THE SAME BUYNARY CHOICE IN 2024.

IF IT STEAMS LIKE WE VEER BACK BETWEEN RIGHT AND LEFT, THERE'S A STRUCTURAL REASON FOR THAT.

>> BRAUDE: JONATHAN MARTIN, ALEXANDER BURNS, THANKS.

THE BOOK AGAIN IS "THIS WILL NOT PASS: TRUMP, BIDEN, AND THE BATTLE FOR AMERICA'S FUTURE."

TERRIFIC AND TERRIFYING ALL AT ONCE.

REALLY ENJOYED IT.

THANK YOU BOTH.

>> APPRECIATE IT.

>> Braude: THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT.

PLEASE COME BACK TOMORROW.

LEADERS FROM THE BLACK ECONOMIC COUNCIL OF MASSACHUSETTS AND THE BOSTON FEDERAL RESERVE WILL JOIN ME ON THE NEW EFFORT TO UPDATE THE BOMBSHELL 2015 REPORT THAT FOUND THE MEDIAN NET WEALTH OF BLACK FAMILIES IN THE REGION IS JUST $8.

THAT AND MORE, TOMORROW AT 7:00 THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND STAY SAFE.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH