>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

>>> HEY, THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR ANOTHER EDITION OF DONNYBROOK.

GREAT TO HAVE YOU WITH US AND WE HAVE A GREAT GUEST HALFWAY THROUGH.

DR. KEN HALLER FROM THE ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND CARDINAL GLENNON.

LET'S FIRST MEET OUR PANELISTS STARTING WITH THE NEWS DIRECTOR FOR THE BIG 550, KTRS AND THE COHOST THE JENNIFER AND WENDY SHOW, WENDY WIESE.

ALONG WITH -- >> YOU'RE IN TROUBLE NOW.

>> -- MR. BILL McCLELLAN FROM THE ST. LOUIS POST-DISPATCH AND STLTODAY.COM.

FROM THE RIVERFRONT TIMES, THE BIG 550 AND RAWSTORY.COM, ONE OF OUR FOUNDERS, MR. RAY HARTMANN.

AND WE WELCOME NEWS EDITOR FROM THE ST. LOUIS AMERICAN, ALVIN REID, WITH WHOM WE'LL KICK OFF THE PROGRAM BECAUSE THERE WAS STARTLING NEWS TODAY IN THE SPORTS WORLD.

WE DON'T ORDINARILY BROACH THIS TOPIC, BUT THIS IS A BIG ONE.

HOW MANY SOMETIMES DOES AN ATHLETE GET A STATUE IN ST. LOUIS WHILE HE'S PLAYING?

THAT WAS THE CASE WITH ALBERT PUJOLS.

HE HAD MANY GREAT YEARS HERE, A FUTURE HALL OF FAMER, BUT HE WAS CUT TODAY BY THE ANGELS AND NOW THE QUESTION IS EVEN THOUGH HE'S NOT BATTING .200, SHOULD THE CARDINALS PICK HIM UP?

>> WELL, I'VE BEEN LIVING THESE BILL McCLELLAN HOURS AND NOW THAT I HAVE TO GO TO WORK EVERY DAY, THIS ACTUALLY BROKE WHILE I WAS AT THE AMERICAN AND I WAS LIKE, WHAT'S GOING ONS WITH ONE THING THAT -- APPARENTLY HE WAS NOT IN THE LINE-UP LAST NIGHT AND HE WOULD HAVE BEEN FACING A PITCHER THAT HE HAD GREAT SUCCESS AGAINST AND I GUESS IT KIND OF RUBBED HIM THE WRONG WAY AND ALLEGEDLY THERE WAS SOME TYPE OF INCIDENT, AND THIS MAY HAVE LED TO HIS, YOU KNOW, LIKE ASSIGNMENT TO THE WHEREVER.

BUT HE'S BASICALLY -- NO, LEAVE HIM ALONE, CARDINALS.

HE WAS GREAT A CARDINAL.

HE'LL PROBABLY GO INTO THE HALL OF FAME AS A CARDINAL, BUT WE DON'T NEED HIM.

WE HAVE A SOLID TEAM AND UNLESS YOU CAN PLAY OUTFIELD, THAT'S NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

HE WOULD PROBABLY HIT THE HOME RUN THAT WOULD PROPEL THE CARDINALS TO THE PLAYOFFS OR NATIONAL LEAGUE CHAMPIONSHIP SERIES, BUT THAT'S A LONG WAY FROM HERE, AND I JUST -- I'M VERY WARY OF HIM.

I DO KNOW WHERE HE'S GOING TO END UP AND I'LL TELL YOU RIGHT NOW.

HE'LL BE WEARING A CHICAGO WHITE SOX UNIFORM, BE A D.H. AND PLAY FOR TONY LA RUSSA, YOU HEARD IT HERE FIRST.

>> THAT'S A GOOD ENOUGH REASON FOR ME TO GET HIM.

I'LL AGREE WITH YOU, IT'S PURE SENTIMENT, BUT I THINK YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT THAT ONE HOME RUN AND THE CARDINALS AND THEIR FANS WOULD GET THEIR MONEY'S WORTH, I THINK, OUT OF HAVING AN OCCASIONAL BIG HIT FROM HIM, WHICH IS, YOU'RE RIGHT, PLUS YOU NEVER KNOW IF SOMEBODY'S HAVING HIM AS A BACKUP FIRST BASEMAN AND BAT OFF THE BENCH, I'D TAKE MY CHANCES OVER MATT CARPENTER WITH HIM AS A PINCH HITTER.

>> OH, EXCELLENT POINT.

YEAH, YEAH, GOOD POINT.

>> I DON'T WANT TO BE PART OF THE HATERS, BUT I THINK IT WOULD BE A COOL MOVE FOR THEM TO GET ALBERT PUJOLS.

I HATE TO SEE TONY LA RUSSA GET ANYTHING.

>> I'D LOVE TO SEE HIM COME BACK.

BASEBALL IS ALL ABOUT SENTIMENT AND AFTER A PANDEMIC, I THINK THAT WOULD BE THE CHERRY ON TOP OF HIS CAREER AND FOR PEOPLE WHO STILL MISS HIM AS A PINCH HITTER.

>> WELL, I'LL -- >> I THINK GIVING THE FANS ANOTHER CHANCE TO SEE ALBERT PUJOLS WOULD BE A SMART THING.

I REMEMBER ONE YEAR WHEN THE CUBS WERE SIGNING CHILDREN OF THEIR FORMER PLAYERS.

THEY HAD GARY MATTHEWS JR., RANDY HUNDLEY'S SON.

IF I WERE THE CARDINALS, I'D SIGN PUJOLS AND LET HIM PINCH HIT OCCASIONALLY.

>> LET ME JUST SAY I'M GOING TO AGREE WITH ALVIN BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING CALLED IRISH ALZHEIMER'S WHERE YOU FORGET EVERYTHING BUT YOUR GRUDGES AND HE LEFT US AND I CAN'T FORGET THAT.

>> OH, COME ON, CHARLIE, THAT WAS A TOTAL -- YOU CAN'T SAY -- COME ON.

HE'S A PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE AND PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES HAVE A RIGHT AND REALLY -- >> ABSOLUTELY.

>> I AGREE WITH YOU AND I HAVE A RIGHT TO MY OPINION AND I WISH HIM THE BEST IN RETIREMENT.

>> DID YOU SEE DAVID BACCHUS LAST NIGHT, THE HOCKEY PLAYER.

>> THAT WAS EMOTIONAL.

>> HE WAS WITH THE BLUES, AND HE HAD HIS LAST GAME IN ST. LOUIS LAST NIGHT AND IT WAS TOUCHING.

>> IT WAS TOUCHING.

>> YEAH, IT WAS, AND ATHLETES DO NOT OWE US, YOU KNOW, MAKING TENS OF MILLIONS OF SACRIFICES TO -- >> HE'S A GREAT GUY.

I KNOW HE'S DONE A LOT OF CHARITY WORK.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, HE CAN'T HIT.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

>> THE FACT IS, THIS IDEA THAT WE SHOULD HOLD A GRUDGE AGAINST THE GUY FOR -- >> I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD.

I SAY I HAVE A GRUDGE.

>> THERE ISN'T A COMPANY IN THE COUNTRY THAT WOULD WALK AWAY FROM.

>> NO, NO, YOU'RE NOT FRO CLEVELAND.

YOU HAVEN'T BEEN BURNED LIKE I HAVE THROUGH THE YEARS.

AND WHERE IS LEBRON PLAYING?

NEVER MIND.

>> ALL THIS TALK ABOUT MISSOURI AND KANSAS PLAYING, I HAVE A GRUDGE.

THAT HE SHOULD NEVER HAPPEN.

>> OKAY, LET'S MOVE ON.

RAY HARTMANN, DO YOU HAVE A GRUDGE AGAINST THE REPUBLICANS IN JEFFERSON CITY?

OF COURSE, YOU DON'T.

BUT THEY MAY PASS A BILL THAT WILL MAKE PROTESTING IN THE STREETS A FELONY IF IT'S DONE THREE TIMES.

LET'S SAY YOU'RE A PROTESTER, YOU'RE IN THE STREETS.

THE FIRST TIME YOU'RE ARRESTED, AN INFRACTION.

SECOND TIME, MISDEMEANOR.

THIRD TIME, FELONY.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO DIGNIFY THIS BECAUSE THE FACT IS THEY CHANGED THE SUBJECT FROM THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, DECIDED TO HIJACK IT AS PART OF THE NATIONAL -- LET'S KEEP ONE THING IN MIND.

I WON'T ACCUSE THE REPUBLICANS OF INDEPENDENT THOUGHT ON THIS BECAUSE THIS IS COMING FROM ALEC, THIS IS THE SAME EVERYWHERE.

THEY BASICALLY FIGURED OUT THE WAY TO TARGET THE WAY BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS AND THEY MIGHT AS WELL BE ARGUING FOR JUST OUT LAWING BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.

IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SPECIFICS OF THIS THING.

>> RAY, I AGREE WITH YOU.

JUST ONE THING I'LL THROW IN IS THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE OVERCOME, YOU KNOW, JUST BY ROTATING WHO PROTESTS AND WHO DOESN'T.

BUT JUST TO CLARIFY HERE, THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE WHO PROTEST OR WHO SIT IN THE STREET SUPPORT, MAYBE, BLACK LIVES MATTER, BUT THEY HAVE NOTHING TO DO WITH BLACK LIVES MATTER.

AND I CRINGE WHENEVER SOMEBODY SAYS THIS IS TARGETING BLACK LIVES MATTER.

NO, IT ISN'T.

IT'S TARGETING BLACK PEOPLE, BUT MOST OF US WOULD BE DOING IT IF THERE WAS A BLACK LIVES MATTER OR NOT.

SO I THINK THE ARGUMENT, IF YOU WANT TO SAY IT'S RACIAL, IT'S JUST ABOUT BLACK PEOPLE.

IT IS NOT ABOUT BLACK LIVES MATTER OTHER THAN THAT'S THE CATCH PHRASE THAT WHIPS PEOPLE INTO A FRENZY.

>> I'VE SEEN A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE DURING THOSE DEMONSTRATIONS, SO I MEAN, I -- AND I DO THINK THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MAJOR DISRUPTIONS ON -- SOMETIMES ON INTERSTATE HIGHWAYS.

I WISH THAT SOMETHING ELSE COULD BE DONE TO CONTROL IT.

I DON'T THINK THAT -- I DON'T THINK THAT THAT KIND OF THOUGHT IS EVEN POSSIBLE ANYMORE, BUT I THINK PEOPLE DO HAVE A RIGHT TO BE UPSET ABOUT THAT KIND OF DISRUPTION.

>> WELL, AND I'D SAY THAT I REMEMBER DURING THE FERGUSON UNREST, GETTING ON HIGHWAY 70, TRYING TO GET TO HIGHWAY 70 TO GO TO FERGUSON AND THE HIGHWAY WAS BOKD BY PROTESTERS -- BLOCKED BY PROTESTERS AND THAT NIGHT MY DAUGHTER CALLED ME AND SAID, DAD, GUESS WHAT I WAS DOING TONIGHT -- OR TODAY?

>> PROTESTING.

>> I WAS BLOCKING HIGHWAY 70.

I SAID, OKAY.

SO WENDY IS RIGHT, THERE'S A LOT OF WHITE PEOPLE INVOLVED IN THESE PROTESTS AS WELL.

>> BUT I'LL GET BACK TO IT, THEY CHANGED THE SUBJECT.

>> OH, YOU'RE RIGHT, RAY.

I'M NOT ARGUING WITH THAT.

>> IT USED TO BE ABOUT POLICE VIOLENCE AGAINST BLACK PEOPLE AND HERE WE ARE AND EVERYBODY ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND ALVIN HAS THE POINT, YOU'RE RIGHT, IT'S NOT -- IT WAS SPURRED BY THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS IN THIS CASE, BUT THE POINT IS, WHETHER IT'S WHITE PEOPLE, BLACK PEOPLE, WHATEVER, WE'RE ON THE WRONG SUBJECT.

WE SHOULD BE TALKING ABOUT POLICE VIOLENCE AND WE'RE NOT.

>> YEAH.

HEY, REAL QUICK -- >> EXCUSE ME, LET ME JUST BRING IT BACK.

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SUGGESTED THIS TOPIC, RAY.

>> I MEAN, IT'S A TOPIC THAT -- >> DON'T SAY WE ARE NOT TALKING -- >> WE'RE ON THE WRONG TOPIC.

>> RAY, WE WERE BOTH AT -- >> GOOD POINT, GOOD POINT.

>> WE WERE BOTH AT DON WOLFE'S FUNERAL AND REMEMBER THE LATE JAMES BUFORD SPOKE AND HE TALKED ABOUT WHEN THE HIGHER ECHELON BLACK EXECUTIVES AND WHAT NOT BLOCKED HIGHWAY 40 BACK IN THE DAY, AND HE SAID -- DON WOLFE WAS AT THE POLICE STATION WHEN HE GOT THERE AND HE WAS GONE IN TEN MINUTES.

I BELIEVE THAT WILL CONTINUE TO HAPPEN EVEN AFTER THIS LAW IS PASSED.

>> HEY, THAT'S AN INTERESTING POINT.

I SAW JAMES BUFORD GET ARRESTED WHEN, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN THE SUMMER OF 2000 IN A DEMONSTRATION WITH -- HE WAS ARRESTED ON HIGHWAY 70.

>> YEAH, THAT'S IT.

I SAID 40, I MEANT 70.

>> I DID GO TO JAIL, BUT THAT'S ALL PART OF IT.

THAT'S THE CIVIL DISOBEDIENCE.

IF YOU BREAK THE LAW, YOU'RE SUPPOSED TO BE ARRESTED, RIGHT?

>> YEAH.

>> WHAT HAPPENS NOW IS, IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS LAST SUMMER AND SUMMER BEFORE, YOU GET A POLICE ESCORT.

YOU GET A POLICE ESCORT ON THE HIGHWAY AND SO SOMEBODY LIKE BILL WHO MIGHT BE HEADING TO THE HOSPITAL OR AIRPORT, WHO KNOWS WHAT, PICK UP THE KIDS FROM DAYCARE IS INCONVENIENCED AND I -- >> WELL, THANK YOU, AND WE APOLOGIZE FOR THOSE TECHNICAL DIFFICULTIES BE BUT WE ARE BACK AND MOVING ON, WENDY WIESE, TO ANOTHER TOPIC.

THIS TIME INVOLVING THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY KIM GARDNER IN THE CITY OF ST. LOUIS.

THIS WEEK, MISSOURI'S CHIEF DISCIPLINARY COUNSEL FOUND PROBABLE CAUSE THAT THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY COMMITTED MORE THAN 50 ETHICAL VIOLATIONS IN HER PROSECUTION OF ERIC GREITENS BACK IN 2018.

I KNOW THIS ALMOST SOUNDS LIKE ANCIENT HISTORY, BUT IT'S A PRETTY SERIOUS ISSUE SRK IT NOT?

HER CASE WILL GO IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT AND IT COULD RULE THAT HER LICENSE TO PRACTICE LAW WILL BE SUSPENDED OR REVOKED, AND NEITHER CASE, BY STATE STATUTE, SHE'LL IMMEDIATELY HAVE TO LEAVE OFFICE AND SHE WILL BE REPLACED BY THE GOVERNOR.

WHAT DO YOU THINK, WENDY?

>> WELL, IF I WERE THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY, I WOULD CERTAINLY BE -- I WOULD BE VERY CONCERNED.

JOHN AMONDS, PROFESSOR EMERITUS AT ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF LAW, WHO HAS APPEARED ON THIS PROGRAM BEFORE WITH US, WHEN HE SAYS IT'S A PRETTY SCARY THING, PRETTY SCARY ALLEGATIONS FOR AN ATTORNEY TO BE FACING, MUCH LESS THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY, IF SHE IS FOUND TO HAVE IMPEDED THE ADMINISTRATION OF JUSTICE, EVEN IF IT IS SOMEBODY LIKE ERIC GREITENS WHO HAS NOW RENEWED HIS POLITICAL CAREER AND NO DOUBT WILL BE USING THIS TO THE HILT, THAT'S NOT RIGHT WHEN YOU'RE A CIRCUIT ATTORNEY, WHEN YOU'RE A PROSECUTING ATTORNEY.

AND IF SHE IS FOUND IN CONCERT WITH MR. TISABY, HER PRIVATE INVESTIGATORS WHO'S CHARGED WITH PERJURY AND IMPROPERLY HANDING OVER NOTES, IF SHE DID IN FACT NOT CORRECT MISINFORMATION, THEN I WOULD BE WORRIED.

>> I WOULDN'T BE WORRIED ABOUT ANYTHING.

IT'S JUST NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

THIS IS MORE "WE HATE KIM GARDNER AND WE'RE GOING TO BASE OUR POLITICAL CAREERS ON IT."

MISSTEPS?

YEAH.

HAS SHE DONE A BANG-UP JOB ALL THE TIME?

ABSOLUTELY NOT, BUT THIS IS JUST MORE CRAZINESS AND I DECERTIFY YOU TO TELL ME IF WE STARTED, OH, PROSECUTOR DID THIS, DIDN'T CORRECT WHO EITHER MISSPOKE, LIED, HOWEVER YOU WANT TO PUT IT, THAT'S NOT HER JOB.

THAT'S THE DEFENSE'S JOB AND WE SHOULD LET ALL THE CRIMINALS OUT THAT GOT CONVICTED UNS THESE SAME CIRCUMSTANCES.

PROSECUTORS LIE, POLICE LIE.

THEIR JOB IS TO SEND PEOPLE TO PRISON.

NOW, DID YOU PICK THE WRONG GUY TO TRIES TO SEND TO PRISON?

MAYBE SO, BUT I'M NOT GOING TO ACT LIKE THIS DOES NOT -- THIS GOES ON ALL THE TIME.

I DON'T THINK SHE BREACHED ANYTHING.

50 CHARGES IS RIDICULOUS.

WHAT, DID SHE HAVE THE WRONG COLOR DRESS ON THAT DAY TOO?

THIS IS JUST SILLY.

>> ALVIN, I THINK IT'S MORE THAN SILLINESS.

SHE AND TISABY SAID SHE DIDN'T HAVE ANY NOTES FROM HER FIRST MEETING WITH THE WITNESS.

IN FACT, SHE HAD TYPE UP NOTES AND SENT THEM TO MR. TISABY.

SHE TOOK NOTES DURING THE SECOND DEPOSITION.

SHE SAT NEXT TO HIM AND NEITHER OF THEM TOLD THE JUDGE THAT THERE WERE NOTES THERE.

AND IN FACT, AT ONE POINT, ACCORDING TO THE INDICTMENT WHICH CAME OUT THREE YEARS AGO, ROBERT DERKER, THE RESPECTED JUDGE WHO IS NOW WORKING WITH HER AS A PROSECUTOR, SAID WE SHOULD TELL THE POLICE ABOUT TISABY'S PERJURY AND SHE SAID NO, DON'T GO TO THE POLICE ABOUT THIS.

IT GETS WORSE.

THERE WAS ONE LUNCH BREAK WHERE SHE CAME BACK FROM LUNCH AND JIM MARTIN, THE FORMER U.S. ATTORNEY AXING ON BEHALF OF ERIC GREITENS, SAID DID YOU FOLKS TALK DURING LUNCH?

NO, WE DIDN'T TALK, WE HAD NO CONVERSATION.

THEN HE SUBPOENAED THE PHONE RECORDS AND FOUND OUT THEY TALKED SEVEN TIMES.

SHE HAS AN OBLIGATION BY LAW TO CORRECT THE RECORD IN CERTAIN CASES WHEN SHE'S ASKED TO DO THAT BY THE JUDGE.

I THINK SHE'S GOT SOME ISSUES HERE.

I REALLY DO.

>> BUT I DON'T THINK -- I'M NOT A KIM GARDNER FAN AT ALL, AND I'M NOT AIMING THIS AT ALVIN, BUT KIM GARDNER'S SUPPORTERS ARE OFTEN LIKE TRUMP SUPPORTERS.

I MEAN, YOU CAN'T CONVINCE THEM THAT THEIR GUY OR THEIR WOMAN HAS DONE ANYTHING WRONG, AND I THOUGHT WHAT SHE DID WAS VERY WRONG AND, YOU KNOW, EVEN -- YOU CAN'T LIE EVEN TO GET SOMEBODY LIKE ERIC GREITENS.

AND MAYBE OTHER PROSECUTORS HAVE LIED, ALVIN, I'LL GIVE YOU -- I'LL CONCEDE THAT POINT, BUT I THINK KIM GARDNER WAS A LITTLE MORE THAN INEPT, BUT I DON'T THINK ANYTHING WILL HAPPEN.

I THINK IT'S A -- THEY'LL LOOK AT IT AND JUST SAY LET IT LIE.

>> BILL, I DON'T KNOW THAT I CALL MYSELF ONE OF THOSE SUPPORTERS, BUT I TELL YOU, I DO THINK THAT SHE WILL BE JUST FINE AND I THINK THE ONLY PERSON'S LIES THAT'S REALLY, TO ME, ARE INTERESTING IN THIS CASE, ARE THOSE OF ERIC GREITENS WHO HAS BEEN TELLING HIS OWN LITTLE VERSION OF THE BIG LIE TO THE JOHN SOLOMONS AND THE -- AND TRYING TO SAY THAT IF NOT FOR KIM GARDNER, HE WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN RUN OUT SO UNJUSTLY.

KEEP IN MIND THAT THE WOMAN WHOSE CASE KIM GARDNER BROUGHT WENT DOWN TO JEFF CITY AND COMPLETELY CONVINCED LEGISLATORS OF BOTH PARTIES, OVERWHELMING, THAT SHE WAS -- >> I KNOW, I KNOW, RAY -- >> THAT'S NOT THE POINT, RAY.

>> NO, IT IS THE POINT BECAUSE THE ONLY THING -- >> WHAT KIM GARDNER DID -- IF SHE WOULD HAVE JUST LEFT WELL ENOUGH ALONE, THIS WAS A REPUBLICAN COUP, ERIC GREITENS WOULD NOT BE ON THE COMEBACK TRAIL.

>> RIGHT.

>> BUT SHE NOT ONMESSED UP THE THING WITH THE HAIR DRESSER, BUT SHE HAD TO DISMISS THE MORE SERIOUS CASE, I THOUGHT, THE FELONY ABOUT USING HIS CHARITY FOR ELECTORAL PURPOSES.

SHE GAVE ERIC GREITENS NEW LIFE.

>> NO, I THINK -- I DON'T AGREE, BUT -- >> WE DID NOT LIKE ERIC GREITENS, OKAY.

THAT'S FINE.

BUT YOU HAVE TO ADMIT HE IS ENTITLED TO A FAIR TRIAL WHERE THE LAWYERS ON BOTH SIDES PLAY BY THE RULES, AND AT ONE POINT WHEN HIS ATTORNEYS WERE ASKING -- AND THIS IS ALL IN THE INDICTMENT FROM JUNE OF 2018 OR '19, I CAN'T REMEMBER WHICH, SEEMS LIKE '18 IS HISTORY.

WHEN HE SAID, HEY, I WANT THE VIDEOTAPE OF THE DEPOSITION, HE'S ENTITLED TO THAT.

THEY SAID IT DOESN'T WORK, IT DOESN'T WORK, THE MACHINE DOESN'T WORK.

WELL, THEY GET THE MACHINE, IT WORKS PERFECTLY AND IT TURNS OUT SHE HAD NEVER APPROACH THE I.T.

PERSON IN THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY'S OFFICE TO SEE IF THE THING WORKED.

>> WE'RE GETTING SO INTO THE WEEDS.

CHARLIE -- >> THAT'S WHAT IT'S ABOUT.

INTO THE WEEDS, BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT THIS IS ABOUT.

>> ALL THIS IS ABOUT IS ERIC GREITENS' RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN -- >> NO, IT'S NOT.

>> AND IN ANY OTHER SITUATION, THIS WOULD HAVE BEEN OLD -- >> RAY, THIS IS THE LAW.

THIS IS THE LAW AND IT IS IRONIC BECAUSE JUSTICE IS SUPPOSED TO BE BLIND AND WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT BLIND FOLDS WITH THE ERIC GREITENS CASE, BUT KIM GARDNER IS THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY.

SHE IS THE CIRCUIT ATTORNEY.

WHETHER YOU'RE WHITE, WHETHER YOU ARE BLACK, WHETHER YOU ARE THIS GIVEN TO THIS ONE POLITICAL OPINION OR THE OTHER, JUSTICE HAS TO BE SERVED HERE.

>> OKAY, WELL, ALL RIGHT -- >> THERE'S NO NEED -- >> I'LL SAY THIS.

KIM GARDNER, WHICHEVER THIS GETS TO THE SUPREME COURT, SHE'S GOING TO WIN.

SHE'LL HAVE A DEFENSE ATTORNEY AND I GUARANTEE YOU IT'S GOING TO SOUND A LOT DIFFERENT COMING OUT OF THAT SERIES OF LAWYERS.

>> YEAH, I AGREE.

>> THAN IT DOES RIGHT NOW.

>> I DON'T THINK SHE'S GOT ANYTHING TO WORRY ABOUT AND I THINK, WITH ALL RESPECT TO JOHN AMONDS WHO IS ACTUALLY MUCH WISER, I THINK THAT THIS IS -- WHEN YOU BACK OFF A STEP, THIS WAS NOT SOME TRIAL OF THE CENTURY WITH HORRIBLE THINGS -- THE STUFF YOU'RE EVEN TALKING ABOUT IS SUCH NUANCED, IT'S JUST NOT -- >> BUT KISS OF DEATH, KISS OF DEATH BECAUSE EVERYBODY VIOLATES -- IT'S LIKE, OKAY, WELL, THIS SURGEON LEAVES THAT SPONGE IN THIS SURGICAL PROCEDURE, I'M JUST GOING TO LOOK THE OTHER WAY WHILE THIS SURGEON -- I MEAN -- >> YOU KNOW, WHAT RAY, I THINK IT WAS A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT TRIAL WHEN YOU HAVE A DULY ELECTED GOVERNOR WHO RESIGNS AS A RESULT -- >> HE DIDN'T, THAT'S THE POINT, CHARLIE, SHE HAD NOTHING TOOTO DO WITH HIM RESIGNING.

THE REPUBLICANS DID.

BILL SAID HIMSELF.

THAT'S POINT OF THIS.

IT'S ABOUT ERIC GREITENS AND HIS RE-ELECTION CAMPAIGN AND THEY'LL TRYING TO OUTTOO EACH OTHER RUNNING AGAINST KIM GARDNER.

>> BUT KIM GARDNER PUT HERSELF IN THIS SITUATION.

IF SHE WOULD HAVE DONE NOTHING, ERIC GREITENS POLITICAL CAREER WOULD BE OVER NOW.

>> SHE'S BEING HELD TO A STANDARD THAT NO PROSECUTOR I'VE EVER SEEN HELD TO.

>> OH, COME ON, RAY.

>> NO, I AGREE WITH RAY, I DO.

IF THIS WAS SOMEBODY WHO EVERYBODY THOUGHT MURDERED SOMEBODY ON THIS SAME STUFF, NOBODY COULD SAY -- >> THERE'S A LOT OF THEM THAT PUT PEOPLE AWAY KNOWING THEY WERE INNOCENT BECAUSE THEY WANT TO GET A NOTCH ON THEIR BELT, WE DON'T EVEN TALK ABOUT THOSE THOUSANDS OF PROSECUTORS, BUT THIS ONE BECAUSE SHE DID THIS AND SHE DID -- YOU KNOW, GIVE ME A BREAK.

>> NO, LET'S GET RID OF THESE RULES THEN.

LET'S DROP THE RULES.

>> AS LONG AS THEY DON'T MEAN ANYTHING.

>> JUST SEND ERIC GREITENS DOWN TO -- >> FOR THAT MATTER, LET'S HAVE A -- IF POLICE OFFICERS AND PROSECUTORS AND OTHERS BREAK THE LAW, THAT'S FINE.

>> SO WE CAN HAVE MORE GREAT CITIZENS LIKE ERIC GREITENS.

>> WELL, I'LL HOLD A GRUDGE BECAUSE I LOST A FEW WEEKS PAYCHECK WHEN SHE DROPPED THAT CASE WITH THE "NEW YORK TIMES."

>> YEAH.

HEY, BILL McCLELLAN, I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A PROPOSAL TO PUT A QUIK TRIP ON GRAND AT 44th.

IT'S PART OF A ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY DEVELOPMENT ALONG WITH SSM AND, BY THE WAY, I THINK KEN HALLER FROM SSM IS GOING TO BE WITH US TODAY.

I DON'T THINK WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS WITH HIM, BUT NONETHELESS, SOME PEOPLE ARE SAYING WE'RE TRYING TO REVITALIZE A NEIGHBORHOOD AND YOU'RE PUTTING UP A QUIK TRIP.

BUT THE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION LIKES IT BECAUSE THEY COULD GET ABOUT $6,000 A YEAR FROM THIS QUIK TRIP IF IT'S BUILT.

PROBABLY NOT EXACTLY WHAT MOST PEOPLE TRYING TO REVITALIZE THEIR NEIGHBORHOOD ARE LOOKING FOR.

WHAT DO YOU SAY, BILL?

>> WELL, JACOB BARKER WROTE AN EXCELLENT STORY IN THE PAPER TODAY AND I'M NOT SO SURE THAT THE NEIGHBORS ARE BEHIND THIS OR THE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATION.

I MEAN, THE WOMAN IN CHARGE OF THAT WAS NOT VERY COOPERATIVE WITH JACOB.

I THINK THAT SINCE THIS WAS A DEVELOPMENT THAT WAS GOING TO BE VERY IMPRESSIVE AND PART OF THE REVITALIZATION OF MIDTOWN AND ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY WAS GOING TO BE STEERING IT, I WAS A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED.

MORE THAN A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED WHEN THEY CAME UP WITH, YOU KNOW SOMETHING THAT WOULD BE REALLY ARCHITECTURALLY AND JUST A SOUND IDEA?

WHY DON'T WE HAVE A QUIK TRIP?

I THOUGHT, REALLY?

THAT'S THE BEST YOU CAN DO?

I WAS NOT VERY IMPRESSED.

>> WELL, WHEN I MOVED BACK, I HAD THIS PHILOSOPHY THAT ST. LOUIS NEEDED TO USE TWO THINGS MORE.

THE ANSWER NO AND THE TRASH CAN.

AND I HAVE CHANGED MY THINKING.

I'M NOW MORE TOWARDS THE BIG -- THE BEGGARS CANNOT BE CHOOSERS PHILOSOPHY.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH A QUIK TRIP BY 44 AND GRAND, WHICH IS AT THE ABSOLUTE PRETTY MUCH END OF, YOU KNOW, ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY'S CAMPUS, AND IT HELPS THE NEIGHBORHOOD.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT PLACES THAT DON'T HAVE, LIKE, A NICE CONVENIENCE STORE, AND SO I'VE GOT NO PROBLEM WITH THE QUIK TRIP.

NOW, IF THEY WANT TO MAKE IT LIKE A STRIP MALL ALL THE WAY DOWN TO, YOU KNOW, OLIVE, I GOT A PROBLEM WITH THAT, BUT JUST A QUIK TRIP?

IT BRINGS REVENUE, IT BRINGS LIVELINESS, IT BRINGS -- >> COULDN'T YOU FIND SOMETHING BETTER?

I MEAN, IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, THAT HISTORIC HOUSE RIGHT NEXT TO IT IS VERY MUCH AGAINST IT.

I CAN SEE, OKAY, CAPTAIN D'S RESTAURANT ON THIS SIDE WITH A QUIK TRIP HERE.

IT JUST DOESN'T DO ANYTHING.

>> THAT'S NOT A SIGNATURE -- THAT'S NOT A SIGNATURE ARCHITECTURAL STATEMENT, IS IT?

>> IS THE GUGGENHEIM GOING TO MOVE HERE?

IT'S RIGHT ON THE HIGHWAY -- >> A MUSEUM.

>> ALVIN, YOU KNOW BETTER THAN THIS.

YOU GO TO KIRKWOOD AND THERE'S A GREAT BAKERY CALLED NATHANIEL REED, I THINK IT'S YOUR BROTHER.

THAT'S WHAT NEIGHBORHOODS NEED, BAKERIES AND BOOKSTORES AND FLOWER SHOPS.

I LOVE QUIK TRIP OVERALL, BUT THERE IS GOING TO SERVICE THE PEOPLE ON HIGHWAY 44, THEY'RE GOING TO STOP, FILL UP, TAKE OFF.

IT'S NOT GOING TO -- >> WAIT, CHARLIE, DIRECTLY ACROSS THE STREET IS LIQUOR STORE AND LIKE AN AUTO REPAIR TIRE PLACE.

THAT'S WHAT'S ACROSS THE STREET.

AND WE HAVE A QUIK TRIP LIKE ON BIG BEN AT 44, AND IT GETS USED.

GREATER KIRKWOOD DOESN'T THINK THAT THE QUIK TRIP NEAR THE HIGHWAY IS SOME KIND OF EYESORE OR TAKES AWAY OUR, YOU KNOW, HAUGHTY SELF-ESTEEM, WHICH WE HAVE A LOT OF IN KIRKWOOD, SO THUS, I JUST DON'T HAVE A PROBLEM WITH IT.

>> I DON'T, I DON'T -- I PERSONALLY -- FIRST OF ALL, I'VE ACTUALLY NEVER HEAR THE SENTENCE "I LOVE QUIK TRIP."

I MEAN, I GET THE -- >> I DO.

>> NOT THAT I DON'T DISLIKE THEM.

>> MORE THAN LIFE ITSELF.

>> THEY'RE USEFUL, BUT I JUST SAY UNLESS THEY FIGURE OUT A WAY TO PUT -- MAYBE IF THEY ADDED COLUMNS ON IT OR SOMETHING, SO IT LOOKED LIKE AN ACADEMIC BUILDING, LIKE YOU WERE GOING TO STUDY HALL BUT YOU WERE ACTUALLY GOING TO QUIK TRIP.

>> THAT'S A GOOD IDEA.

>> I JUST THINK THAT -- >> YOU KNOW WHAT?

THAT'S A GOOD IDEA, RAY.

LIKE THE MOBILE THAT'S LOCATED AT BIG BEND IN CLAYTON WHERE IT'S KIND OF HIDDEN.

VERY GOOD POINT.

I SAW ONE LIKE THAT IN SHAKER HEIGHTS, WHERE THE GAS STATION WAS HIDDEN.

>> WHY DON'T WE JUST PUT IT IN A BROWN PAPER SACK?

>> THREE-MINUTE WARNING.

LET'S GO TO CLAYTON NOW WHERE MOTHERS -- TOWN OFFICIALS ARE THINKING ABOUT RESTRICTING LAWN MOWING BY CONTRACTING COMPANIES, LANDSCAPING FIRMS, THAT THEY COULDN'T CUT YOUR LAWN OR BLOW THE LEAVES BEFORE 9:00 A.M. ON SATURDAYS OR AFTER 5:00 BECAUSE IT'S TOO EARLY AND NO ONE AFTER 5:00 WANTS TO HEAR THE LEAF BLOWERS WHILE THEY'RE BARBECUING AND SITTING ON THE DECK, RIGHT?

SO ALVIN REID, DO YOU AGREE WITH CHAIN THAT IT SHOULD RESTRICT THE HOURS FOR LAWNMOWERS BY LANDSCAPERS?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

MAN'S HOME, WOMAN'S HOME IS THEIR CASTLE AND IF THEY WANT TO MOW THE LAWN AT 5:30 ON SATURDAY, THEY SHOULD BE ABLE TO MOW THE LAWN AT 5:30 ON SATURDAY.

>> THEY CAN, RIGHT?

IT'S THE LAWN SERVICES THE OWNERS CAN.

>> THE OWNER CAN DO THAT, YOU'RE RIGHT.

>> BUT WHAT I'M SAYING IS WHO CARES WHO CUTS THE GRASS?

OH SO I CAN CUT MY GRASS AT 5:0 ON SATURDAY, BUT THE LAWN SERVICE CAN'T CUT MY GRASS?

WHAT SENSE DOES THAT MAKE.

CLAYTON, CALM DOWN.

PEOPLE MOW THEIR LAWNS OR G THEIR LAWNS MODE WHEN THEY DO.

I LIKE IT.

IT SMELLS LIKE FRESH GRASS.

IT SOUND S LIKE AMERICA.

>> WELL, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND CLAYTON.

ONE OF THE BIG DECISIONS IS USUALLY WHAT COLOR SHOULD THE NEW FIRE ENGINE BE?

SHOULD WE GO WITH LIME GREEN OR IS YELLOW GOOD?

THIS IS A CLAYTON ISSUE.

>> THIS IS A BIG ISSUE.

>> I'M NOT SURE HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT, BUT IT'S A CLAYTON ISSUE.

>> FIRST OF ALL, I'M SQUARELY FOR RED FIRE ENGINES, JUST TO BE CLEAR, BUT I WOULD SAY IT DOESN'T -- WHILE I THINK EVERYBODY CAN DO WHAT THEY WANT, THERE'S A CERTAIN ILLOGIC IN SAYING YOU CAN MOW YOUR LAWN, BUT THE LAWN SERVICE CAN'T BECAUSE IT'S TOO LOUD.

>> WHAT ARE THOSE BOATS CALLED IN THE SWAMP?

ARE THOSE CALLED AIR BOATS?

>> FAN BOATS.

>> OKAY, A LOT OF LAWN SERVICES THAT ARE USED IN OUR NEIGHBORHOOD, THAT IS WHAT IT SOUNDS LIKE.

SO I UNDERSTAND THE IMPULSE TO TRY TO SLEEP A LITTLE BIT LATER ON THE WEEKEND.

I MEAN, SERIOUSLY, THEY CAN MOVE THE FOUNDATION OF YOUR HOUSE.

THEY'RE VERY SERIOUS ABOUT LAWN CARE, THESE LAWN SERVICES, SO.

>> WELL, MAYBE IT SHOULD BE HAND MOWERS BEFORE 9:00?

>> PERHAPS.

I JUST -- I THINK IF THIS IS YOUR MOST PRESSING ISSUE, THEN THINGS ARE GOING OKAY FOR YOU.

>> I AGREE.

>> THAT'S ALL I GOT TO SAY.

>> IT MAY NOT BE THE MOST PRESSING, BUT THERE IT IS AND I THINK THE OFFICIALS ARE MEETING NEXT WEEK.

WE'LL HAVE AN UPDATE FOR YOU NEXT WEEK.

WE'RE GOING TO TAKE A BREAK HERE AND COME BACK WITH KEN HALLER FROM THE ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT KIDS AND COVID.

DONE TOUCH THAT DIAL.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.

* >> THANKS FOR JOINING US FOR NEXT UP WHERE WE INTERVIEW LEADERS OF OUR REGION AND GO AROUND THE HORN WITH ONE QUESTION AFTER ANOTHER.

TODAY ON THE HOTSEAT, DR. KEN HALLER, PROFESSOR OF PEDIATRICS AT THE ST. LOUIS UNIVERSITY SCHOOL OF MEDICINE AND SSM, CARDINAL GLENNON CHILDREN'S MEDICAL CENTER.

DR. HALLER IS PAST PRESIDENT OF THE MISSOURI CHAPTER OF THE AMERICAN ACADEMY OF PEDIATRICS AND HAS SERVE ON THE BOARD OF THE MISSOURI FOUNDATION OF HEALTH.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH, DOCTOR, FOR JOINING US.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> GREAT, GREAT.

MY PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU FOR ASKING.

>> I THINK THE FIRST QUESTION IS COVID AND KIDS, AND I GUESS THE LATEST ON WHO SHOULD BE GETTING THE VACCINATION, WHAT KIDS, WHAT AGES AT THIS TIME.

>> WELL, RIGHT NOW, THE VACCINE IS -- THE MODERNA VACCINE IS APPROVED FOR KIDS, ADOLESCENTS, YOUNG ADULTS AGE 18 AND UP.

THE PFIZER VACCINE IS 16 AND UP.

RIGHT NOW, IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE PROBABLY GETTING SOME DATA VERY SOON TO SHOW THAT THE PFIZER VACCINE, WHICH IS BEING TESTED IN KIDS AS YOUNG AS 12, WILL BE GETTING SOME APPROVAL FOR THAT.

NOW, THE REASON WE'RE GOING IN THIS SORT OF, YOU KNOW, STEPWISE FASHION IS THAT KIDS, THANKFULLY, HAVE BEEN THE LEAST AFFECTED AS A POPULATION, AND SO WE WANTED TO MAKE SURE THAT THESE VACCINES ARE SAFE AND EFFECTIVE IN ADULTS AND THEN WE CAN START STEPPING DOWN AND TESTING IT IN YOUNGER KIDS WHO, FRANKLY, HAVE A HARDER TIME GIVING INFORMED CONSENT.

YOU KNOW, JUST MAKING SURE THAT WE'RE NOT DOING SOMETHING THAT'S COMPLETELY EXPERIMENTAL.

BUT I'M HOPING WITHIN THE NEXT FEW WEEKS, WE'LL BE ABLE TO VACCINATE KIDS AGE 12 AND ABOVE, AND THEN AFTER THAT, IT'S BEING TESTED IN KIDS EVEN YOUNGER THAN THAT AND WE'LL HAVE MORE DATA AS THE SUMMER GOES ON.

>> ALVIN.

>> WELL, I WANT TO FOLLOW UP ON THAT.

PRESIDENT BIDEN SAID TUESDAY, USED THE QUOTE, WHEN THE VACCINE FOR THE KIDS THAT AGE IS APPROVED, SAID THE NATION IS READY TO MOVE.

NOW, WHAT DOES THAT MEAN, EXACTLY?

WILL IT BE THAT IF YOU WANT TO GET VACCINATED AT YOUR -- YOUR SCHOOL, THAT WILL BE POSSIBLE?

OR IS IT MORE THAT -- I WOULD SAY THAT THEY'RE GOING TO NEED MORE VACCINATIONS, BUT THEY ALREADY HAVE TOO MANY IN SOME PLACES.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK HE MEANS BY THAT?

LIKE THAT "READY TO MOVE"?

>> I THINK WHAT HE MEANS IS THAT RIGHT NOW, OF COURSE, TO GET VACCINATED YOU HAVE TO GO TO A VACCINE CENTER OR A SPECIAL PLACE, AND REALLY, POST PEOPLE WANT TO GET VACCINATED AT THEIR DOCTOR'S OFFICE AND THAT HASN'T BEEN POSSIBLE YET.

I'M HOPING THAT'S WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

IN FACT, IN THE SURVEYS I'VE BEEN SEEING OF PEOPLE IN TERMS OF, YOU KNOW, WHO ARE HAVING A LITTLE BIT OF QUESTION ABOUT THE VACCINE, WHAT THEY WANT TO HEAR IS FROM THEIR DOCTOR THAT IT IS SAFE AND WHEN THEY HEAR THAT FROM THEIR DOCTOR IN THEIR OFFICE, THEY WANT TO BE ABLE TO GET THE VACCINE THERE.

I DID GET AN EMAIL TODAY SAYING THAT ONE OF THE MAJOR -- ONE OF THE MAJOR PHARMACY CHAINS IN THE UNITED STATES IS NOW OFFERING THEM -- IS NOW OFFERING THE COVID VACCINE IN PHARMACY, WHICH IS A GREAT NEXT STEP, AND BEING ABLE TO BRING THAT DOWN TO THE PRIVATE PRACTICE AND CLINIC LEVEL IS GOING TO BE THE NEXT STEP TO MAKING THIS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE, YOU KNOW, JUST AVAILABLE TO ANYONE WHO NEEDS IT.

>> DR. HALLER, IS VACCINE HESITANCY WORSE AMONG -- AS THE AGES GO LOWER, SAY, THE 12 TO 15?

DOES IT BECOME MORE OF A PROBLEM IN TERMS OF PARENTS AND KIDS OR ABOUT THE SAME OR LESS THAN IT HAS BEEN WITH ADULTS?

>> WELL, VACCINE HESITANCY FOR KIDS, I MEAN, KIDS, THEY'RE JUST GOING TO GET IT.

IF THEIR PARENTS SAY YOU'RE GOING TO GIT, YOU'RE GOING TO GET IT.

IN TERMS OF PARENTS AND HAVING KIDS GET VACCINE, THIS GENERAL HESITANCY DOES SEEM TO BE MOST OF CONCERN TO PARENTS WHEN KID ARE YOUNGEST BECAUSE THEY THINK THAT THEY'RE -- THEY DON'T WANT TO GIVE THEM SOMETHING THAT THEY HAVE QUESTIONS ABOUT.

THE IRON Y OF COURSE, IS THE REASON WE VACCINATE YOUNG KIDS AGAINST THINGS LIKE PERTUSSIS AND DIPHTHERIA IS THAT THE YOUNGER YOU ARE, THE MORE LIKELY IT IS THAT IF YOU GET SICK WITH ONE OF THESE INFECTIONS, YOU'RE GOING TO GET VERY SICK WITH IT.

THAT'S WHY WE WANT TO GET THE YOUNGEST KIDS VACCINATED AGAINST THESE LIFE-THREATENING ILLNESSES AS EITHER AS POSSIBLE.

I WILL SAY WITH COVID VACCINE HESITANCY, IT'S A LITTLE BIT DIFFERENT AND A LOT OF IT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT THIS IS A NEW VACCINE AND I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE JUST WAITING AND SEEING WHAT HAPPENS WITH THEIR FRIENDS AND IN THEIR COMMUNITY AND HOW PEOPLE ARE REPORTING IT.

THAT'S WHY I KNOW AS A HEALTHCARE PROVIDER MYSELF, I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH TO GET VACCINATED VERY EARLY.

I WAS FULLY VACCINATED BY THE MIDDLE OF JANUARY AND PRETTY MUCH EVERY DOCTOR, NURSE, EVERYONE IN HEALTHCARE I KNOW IS PUTTING THAT OUT ON FACEBOOK AND ON TWITTER AND ON INSTAGRAM, SAYING I GOT VACCINATED, I FEEL FINE.

WHEN YOU CAN GET IT, GET IT.

THAT'S A VERY IMPORTANT MESSAGE TO PUT OUT.

IT'S NOT, I GOT IT, HA HA YOU DIDN'T.

IT'S THAT WE REALLY WANT EVERYONE TO GET THIS.

WE'RE PUTTING OUR OWN BODIES ON THE LINE AND WE'RE DOING FINE WITH IT AND WE WANT YOU TO GET IT TOO.

>> BILL.

>> DOCTOR, LAST SUMMER THERE WAS A SMALL OUTBREAK AT A DAY CAMP THAT MY GRANDCHILDREN WERE AT, AND THEY CALLED AND SAID EVERYONE SHOULD GET TESTED, AND MY GRANDDAUGHTER TESTED POSITIVE.

WE THOUGHT, OH MY GOODNESS, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE MY DAUGHTER AND GRANDSON LIVE IN A SMALL CONFINES WITH MY GRANDDAUGHTER AND WE THOUGHT, THEY'RE PROBABLY GOING TO GET SICK.

AND THEN NO ONE SEEMED TO GET INFECTED FROM MY GRANDDAUGHTER.

SHE NEVER SEEMED TO GET SICK.

MY DAUGHTER AND GRANDSON WERE TESTED AND THEY DIDN'T GET ANYTHING.

HAS THERE BEEN ANY SORT OF A PROBLEM WITH KIDS INFECTING EACH OTHER OR THEIR PARENTS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, KIDS -- IT'S BEEN VERY INTERESTING THE WAY KIDS HAVE REACTED TO THIS.

LIKE I SAID EARLIER, MOST KIDS WHO GET INFECTED DON'T GET THAT SICK.

YOU KNOW, THERE'S THIS ONE THING CALLED MULTISYSTEM INFLAMMATORY SYNDROME IN CHILDREN, MIS-C, WHICH A VERY SMALL NUMBER OF KIDS GET AND IF THEY GET THAT, THEY GET VERY SICK, BUT MOST KIDS IF THEY GET IT WILL HAVE VERY MILD SYMPTOMS.

THE THEORY THAT IS THE RECEPTORS THAT KIDS HAVE IN THEIR NOSE AND THROAT ARE DIFFERENT IN KIDS THAN ADULTS AT CORONAVIRUS DOESN'T SEEM TO BE ABLE TO HANG ON TO IT.

SO IF WE SEE KIDS GET INFECTED, IT'S GOING TO SLIDE OUT VERY QUICKLY.

IT'S THE DIFFERENCE IN TAKING A STONE AND SKING IT ACROSS A LAKE AND IT GOES SO FAR AND SINKS.

BUT IF THAT LAKE IS FROZEN, IT SKIPS ALL THE WAY ACROSS THE LAKE.

A KIDS NOSE IS MORE LIKE THE FROZEN LAKE AND THE ADUTS NOSE IS MORE LIKE THE WATERY LAKE.

SO KIDS CAN GET INFECTIONS THAT ARE PRETTY TRANSIENT AND THEY MAY NOT PASS THEM ON TO THOSE AROUND THEM, BUT STILL, IT WILL BE IMPORTANT ONCE VACCINES ARE APPROVED FOR YOUNGER AND YOUNGER KIDS, FOR THOSE KIDS TO GET VACCINATED, TOO, BECAUSE ESPECIALLY TEENAGERS, THOSE ARE THE ONES WHO ARE MORE LIKELY TO PASS IT TO ONE ANOTHER IN SOCIAL SETTINGS AND SCHOOL SETTINGS.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WENDY.

>> DR. HALLER, WE KNOW THAT THERE HAS CERTAINLY BEEN SOMETHING OF A MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AMONG ADULTS WITHIN THE PANDEMIC AND IT'S NOT FAIR TO PUT YOU ON THE SPOT BECAUSE YOU'RE DEALING WITH PHYSICAL HEALTH OF YOUR PATIENTS, BUT WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THE EMOTIONAL WELL-BEING OF MOST OF THE CHILDREN THAT YOU HAVE SEEN DURING THIS PANDEMIC, AS WE MOVE PAST THIS PANDEMIC, HOPEFULLY?

WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

>> WELL, THIS HAS BEEN A -- FRANKLY, I THINK TO START OFF, I THINK THAT WE USED A LOT OF REALLY POOR LANGUAGE AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS.

USING THE TERM SOCIAL DISTANCING, I THINK HAS BEEN A DISASTER.

WE DIDN'T WANT SOCIAL DISTANCING, WE WANTED PHYSICAL DISTANCING.

SOCIAL DISTANCING IMPLIES YOU SHOULD NOT HAVE ANY SOCIAL INTERACTION WITH ANYBODY, WHICH YOU CAN DO.

EVEN SOMETHING LIKE LOCKDOWNS, SOUNDS LIKE YOU'RE GOING INTO PRISON.

I THINK AS A SOCIETY, WE CREATED SOME TERMS THAT SET PEOPLE UP TO HAVE PROBLEMS WITH DEPRESSION, WITH ISOLATION.

I KNOW THAT IN MY PRACTICE, I'VE SEEN -- YOU KNOW, WHEN I SIT IN THE OFFICE AND I, YOU KNOW, HAVE MY MASK ON, I SAY TO EVERY PARENT, HOW ARE YOU DOING WITH ALL?

AND A LOT OF THEM ARE SAYING IT'S BEEN REALLY, REALLY ROUGH.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE MORE WE CAN DO TO PROMOTE SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN WHATEVER WAY IS SAFE AND STILL PREVENTS CONTAGION IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

FOR KIDS, KIDS HAVE GONE IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS.

THERE ARE A LOT OF KIDS WHO REALLY MISS SCHOOL AND THEY MISS THE SOCIAL INTERACTION WITH OTHER KIDS.

THERE ARE OTHER KIDS, FRANKLY, WHO HAVE, SMALLER NUMBERS, BUT THERE HAVE BEEN KIDS WHO FLOURISHED GETTING SCHOOLING -- BEING -- GETTING VIRTUAL SCHOOL.

THESE ARE KIDS OFTEN WHO HAVE BEEN THE VICTIMS OF BULLIES IN A PHYSICAL SCHOOL SETTING, KIDS WHO ARE IN ETHNIC MINORITIES WHO ARE OFTEN TARGETED BY THE SCHOOL SYSTEM AS BEING, YOU KNOW, SORT OF TROUBLEMAKERS AND OFTEN ARE PUNISHED JUST BECAUSE OF PERCEPTIONS THAT TEACHERS HAVE.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK WE NEED TO LOOK AT AS WE GO FORWARD, PARTICULARLY THOSE KIDS AND MENTAL HEALTH, IS NOT JUST SAYING IT'S ALL OVER, WE CAN FORGET ABOUT IT AND GO BACK TO NORMAL, BUT REALLY LOOKING AT WHAT BAD EFFECTS CAME OUT OF THIS AND HOW CAN WE AMELIORATE THAT, BUT WHAT FOR SOME KIDS WAS GOOD.

WHAT WAS ACTUALLY BETTER FOR THEM AND HOW CAN WE MAKE SURE WE CAN MEET THE NEEDS OF THOSE KIDS, TOO.

THESE CHILDREN OF COLOR, CHILDREN WITH OTHER KINDS OF PROBLEMS WHERE THEY MIGHT GET MARGINALIZED IN A SCHOOL SETTING AND AT HOME, THEY'RE ABLE ON TO BE IN A MORE COMFORTABLE PLACE.

>> DO YOU THINK, THOUGH, ALONG WITH THE PANDEMIC, HAS THERE BEEN, AMONG YOU KNOW, AMERICANS, AN EPIDEMIC OF ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION?

I READ THE STUDENT NEWSPAPER AT WASH-U WHERE THEY SAY THAT THE MENTAL HEALTH OFFICES ARE -- THEY'RE OVERFLOWING WITH PATIENTS, YOU CAN'T GET AN APPOINTMENT.

THIS INFORMATION IS ABOUT TWO MONTHS OLD.

MAYBE IT WAS THE WINTER BLUES, I DON'T KNOW, BUT I HEAR STORIES ABOUT YOU KNOW, PEOPLE, HIGH SCHOOL, GRADE SCHOOL, WHO REALLY ARE SUFFERING MENTALLY.

NOW, ARE YOU SEEING THIS?

>> OH, YEAH, YEAH, WE'RE SEEING THIS MOST DEFINITELY.

LIKE YOU SAID, SOME KIDS DO WELL, BUT A LOT OF KIDS ARE HAVING REAL PROBLEMS BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, BEING -- WE ARE SOCIAL BEINGS, AND THE RATES OF DEPRESSION, THE RATES OF SELF-HARMING BEHAVIORS DO SEEM TO BE WAY UP, PARTICULARLY AMONG YOUNG PEOPLE.

AGAIN, I THINK THAT WE HAVE, AS MUCH AS WE HAVE NEEDED TO MAINTAIN PHYSICAL DISTANCE, TO HAVE MADE SURE WE'RE WEARING MASKS AND THINGS LIKE THAT, I WILL SAY THAT SOMETIMES WE HAVE BEEN TOO SINGLE-MINDED IN THAT.

NOT SAYING THAT SHOULDN'T HAPPEN, BUT RATHER THAN JUST DISMISSING THINGS AND SAYING, HEY, WE WANT TO SAVE YOUR LIFE, YOU GOT TO DO THIS, JUST SAYING YEAH, IT'S REALLY TOUGH.

THIS IS A REALLY TOUGH THING WE'RE GOING THROUGH AND EVERY ONE OF US ARE GOING THROUGH IT.

I DOUBT THERE'S ANYONE WATCHING TONIGHT OR EVEN ANYONE ON THIS FAMILIAR WHO HASN'T HAD MOMENTS OF JUST -- ON THIS PANEL WHO HASN'T HAD MOMENTS OF JUST FEELING FOGGY IN THE PAST FEW MONTHS.

WHERE I DID PUT MY KEYS AND I DID EAT BREAKFAST YESTERDAY AND WHY AM I WEARING THE SAME SOCKS FOR THREE DAYS?

THAT'S THE KIND OF THINGS THAT WHEN WE GET OUT OF OUR ROUTINES AND TO BE A MEMBER OF ASSOCIATE, BUT WITH RIGHTS COME RESPONSIBILITIES, AND ONE OF THOSE RESPONSIBILITIES IS NOT TO DO SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HURT SOMEONE ELSE.

ANOTHER -- AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW HOW GOOD AN ANALOGY THIS IS, BUT SMOKING.

IT TOOK A LONG TIME FOR ST. LOUIS TO GET TO THE POINT WHERE SMOKING WAS BANNED IN PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS, IN BARS AND RESTAURANTS, AND I REMEMBER THAT WEIRD FEW YEARS IN ST. LOUIS WHERE, UNLESS YOU SERVED FOOD, THIS AND THAT, AND THERE WERE BARS PEOPLE WOULD GO TO AND OTHERS WOULDN'T.

I DIDN'T REALIZE UNTIL THAT BAN WENT INTO EFFECT WHAT A DIFFERENCE IT MADE AND IT WAS WITH UNFORTUNATELY TO GO TO PLACES.

AND THERE WERE SOME RESTAURANTS I LIKED THAT I JUST DIDN'T GO TO FOR A FEW YEARS BECAUSE THEY CONTINUE TO ALLOW SMOKING BECAUSE -- NOT JUST BECAUSE IT SMED SMELLED BAD, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO SUBJECT MYSELF TO IT.

I THINK BUSINESSES SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO SAY THESE ARE OUR REQUIREMENTS.

YOU HAVE TO DO THIS TO COME IN HERE.

ESPECIALLY PROFESSIONAL SPORTS TEAMS AND SCHOOLS.

I MEAN, THERE ARE REQUIREMENTS NOW FOR SCHOOLS, FOR VACCINATION AGAINST THINGS LIKE MEASLES, WHICH IS, YOU KNOW, EVEN MORE IN INFE INFECTIVE AS THIS CORONAVIRUS AND A NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS.

AS A SOCIETY, IT'S IMPORTANT FOR US TO SAY WE DO EXPECT EVERYONE TO DO THIS BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT SPREAD OF DISEASE IS FOR EVERY PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION THAT'S NOT VACCINATED, THE CHANCE OF PEOPLE COMING INTO CONTACT WITH ONE ANOTHER AND CAUSING A OUTBREAK GOES UP GEOMETRICALLY.

WHEN SOMETHING GOES UP ARE A WRIT MET TICKALLY IN TERMS OF NOT VACCINATING, THE CHANCE OF AN OUTBREAK GOES UP GEE NET TRICKALLY.

THE PEOPLE WHO DON'T WANT THEIR KIDS TO GET SICK HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY I WANT OTHER KIDS IN MY CHILD'S SCHOOL TO BE VACCINATED AGAINST THIS SO I CAN FEEL SAFE WHEN I SEND MY CHILD TO SCHOOL.

>> FIRST OF ALL, DR. HALLER, THANK YOU FOR THE PLAUSIBLE EXPLANATION OF MY FOGGINESS.

>> YOU ONLY GET IT THIS YEAR, RAY.

>> WE ALL GOT IT FOR THE YEAR.

>> FOR A FEW YEARS, BUT THANK YOU.

YOU ARE A LEADER IN THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY IN ST. LOUIS, IN THE AREA OF MEDICINE FOR SURE, AND I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY THAT THE MISSOURI LEGISLATURE IS NOT.

TALK -- THERE'S BEEN A BIT OF LEGISLATION, ACTUALLY QUITE A BIT OF TALK -- I'LL SAY TARGETING TRANS PEOPLE AS IS HAPPENING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

HAS THAT HAD AN IMPACT ON PEOPLE YOU SERVE AND KNOW IN THE TRANS COMMUNITY?

>> YEAH, I -- I HAVE BEEN -- I WAS THE BOARD PRESIDENT OF PROMO, WHICH IS THE MISSOURI STATEWIDE LGBTQ CIVIL RIGHTS ORGANIZATION FOR ABOUT SIX YEARS, AND THE TRANS COMMUNITY IS REALLY SUFFERING RIGHT NOW.

THE -- YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT THESE BILLS THAT, YOU KNOW, CALLED BATHROOM BILLS ABOUT PEOPLE HAVE TO USE THE PUBLIC BATHROOM THAT FITS THE GENDER THEY WERE ASSIGN AT BIRTH, AND PARTICULARLY THESE SPORTS BILLS ARE VERY, VERY -- JUST REALLY DIFFICULT TO DEAL WITH FOR A PERSON WHO'S TRANSGENDER.

AGAIN, I'M NOT TRANSGENDER, BUT WHAT I CAN SAY IS THAT IF -- YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH EFFECTIVELY THE NUMBER OF TRANSGENDER ATHLETES IN SCHOOL MAY BE VERY SMALL, FOR YOUR LEGISLATURE TO SAY THAT PEOPLE LIKE YOU ARE NOT ALLOWED TO PARTICIPATE IN THIS LEVEL OF PUBLIC ENGAGEMENT THAT IS OPEN TO EVERYONE ELSE IS JUST SO HURTFUL, SO -- IT'S JUST A DEVASTATING THING.

AND SO WE REALLY NEED TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE CAN MAKE SURE THAT WE'RE ALL CARED FOR.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS -- AND AGAIN, I MEAN, THE REASON I WAS SO INVOLVED WITH PROMO IS THAT I'M A CISGENDER GAY MAN MYSELF.

CISGENDER MEANS THAT WHAT I'M ASSIGNED AT BIRTH IS WHAT I'M FINE WITH.

ON SOME LEVEL, I DON'T QUITE GET TRANSGENDER.

I DON'T UNDERSTAND IT.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT'S PART OF MY MAKEUP, BUT I HAVE TO GUESS THAT SOMEONE WHO'S TRANSGENDER GETS IT, THAT THIS IS WHO THEY ARE AND I HAVE TO RESPECT WHO THEY ARE.

THE SAME WAY WHEN I TALK TO PEOPLE WHO ARE STRAIGHT AND SAY I DON'T GET THIS WHOLE GAY THING, IT'S LIKE YOU DON'T HAVE TO.

IT'S JUST THAT YOU HAVE TO GET THAT I GET IT AND I STILL INTERACT -- AS LONG AS I INTERACT WITH OTHER PEOPLE THAT RESPECTS WHO THEY ARE, THAT I RESPECT OTHER PEOPLE IN MY RELATIONSHIPS, THAT I TRY TO CREATE A SOCIETY THAT RESPECTS EVERYONE IN TERMS OF WHO THEY ARE IN THE FULLNESS OF THEIR PERSONHOOD, THAT'S WHAT WE SHOULD BE ALL ABOUT AND THESE BILLS HAVE JUST BEEN TERRIBLY DAMAGING TO TRANSGENDER PEOPLE.

AND I THINK IT ALSO SENDS A MESSAGE TO OTHER PEOPLE WHO MAY BE A LITTLE BIT OUTSIDE THE MAINSTREAM, WHO WONDER AM I GOING TO BE NEXT.

>> BILL, IF YOU DON'T IF I JUMP IN HERE WITH A FOLLOW-UP, DR. HALLER, BECAUSE IF YOU COULD EXPLAIN TO PARENTS WHO ARE FEARFUL, YOU KNOW, THEY -- PERHAPS THEY DON'T WANT ANY HARM TO COME, PSYCHOLOGICALLY, EMOTIONALLY, SPIRITUALLY, PHYSICALLY, TO A TRANS CHILD, BUT THEY'RE TRYING TOS WHAT THEIR OWN HEADS AROUND THE FACT THAT MAYBE THEIR DAUGHTER, WHO IS NOT ABLE TO COMPETE AT THE SAME LEVEL AS A -- MAYBE A TRANSGENDER -- A YOUNG WOMAN WHO IS TRANSITIONING, CAN YOU HELP US UNDERSTAND THAT FROM THE TRANSGENDER POINT OF VIEW?

BECAUSE TO A PARENT, THEY'RE CONCERNED THAT THE ODDS ARE STACKED AGAINST THEIR DAUGHTER OR WHAT HAVE YOU.

>> WELL, I TOTALLY GET THAT, AND I -- WHEN PEOPLE BRING THESE REQUEST HE IS TO -- THESE QUESTIONS TO ME, I'M NOT GOING TO SAY WHAT'S THE MATTER WITH YOU AND HOW HORRIBLE YOU ARE.

I GET THAT YOU LOVE YOUR CHI AND YOU WANT THE BEST FOR YOUR CHILD AND WE ALL WANT THAT.

ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND ABOUT BEING TRANSGENDER IS IT'S NOT SOMETHING WHERE YOU JUST GO, THERE I GO.

IT'S A LONG PROCESS.

THERE ARE TWO ORGANIZATIONS, ONE CALLED WORLD PROFESSIONAL ASSOCIATION OF TRANSGENDER HEALTH, OR WPATH AND THE ENDOCRINE SOCIETY OF NORTH AMERICA AND THEY'RE THE ONES WHO DEAL WITH THESE ISSUES ON A MEDICAL LEVEL.

FOR SOMEONE WHO IS -- A YOUNG PERSON WHO IS SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, I AM NOT THE GENDER THAT I WAS ASSIGNED AND THAT MY BODY SEEMS TO SAY I AM.

THAT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF A LONG PROCESS.

IN ORDER TO DO ANYTHING, FIRST OF ALL, THAT PERSON HAS TO GET A PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION BY SOMEONE WHO IS REALLY -- WHO REALLY KNOWS WHAT THEY'RE DOING IN THIS.

THAT'S A VERY LONG PROCESS.

THEN YOU GET TO THE POINT RTION THERE'S A THREE-STEP MEDICAL PROCESS.

THE FIRST STEP IS WHAT ARE CALLED BASICALLY HORMONE BLOCKERS WHICH STOP THE PUB BER TI PROCESS.

AND THAT DOESN'T START UNTIL TANNER STAGE OF DEVELOPMENT.

TANNER ONE IS WHEN YOU'RE A LITTLE KID AND TANNER TWO IS WHEN YOU'RE DEVELOPING UNDERARM HAIR AND YOU'RE GOING IN THAT DIRECTION.

THAT IS REVERSIBLE BECAUSE AS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL EVALUATION GOES O THAT YOUNG PERSON SAID, I ACTUALLY THINK THIS IS NOT WHAT I WANT, YOU CAN STOP IT AND THE BODY PICKS UP WHERE YOU LEFT OFF.

TO GET TO THE NEXT LEVEL, WHICH IS WHERE YOU START TAKING HORMONES OF THE TARGET SEX, OF THE GENDER THAT YOU SAY THIS IS WHO I AM, NO PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION RECOMMENDS THAT BEFORE THE AGE OF 16 AND USUALLY LATER.

THEN IN TERMS OF CONFIRMATORY SURGERY THAT WOULD BE DONE, NO PROFESSIONAL ORGANIZATION OR ANYONE I KNOW ANYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY WOULD EVEN THINK OF DOING THAT BEFORE AGE 18 AND USUALLY LATER.

AND IN FACT, A LOT OF PEOPLE DON'T EVEN GET THAT DONE UNTIL MUCH LATER OR DON'T GET IT DONE AT ALL.

SO THE THING IS THAT EVEN IN TERMS OF IDENTITY, THERE MAY BE -- THERE ARE A LOT OF STEPS TO THIS AND FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT WAS THE GOVERNOR OF WEST VIRGINIA WHERE THEY PASSED -- I THINK IT WAS WEST VIRGINIA WHERE A BILL LIKE THIS WAS PASSED AND THE GOVERNOR WAS ASKED, DO YOU KNOW OF A CASE WHERE A TRANSGENDER YOUNG WOMAN WAS ON A TEAM AND CAUSED A PROBLEM?

HE SAID, ACTUALLY, I DON'T KNOW ONE, AND FRANKLY, I DON'T KNOW ONE EITHER.

IT IS EXTREMELY, EXTREMELY RARE AND I THINK THAT WOULD BE SOMETHING WHERE EVERYONE AT THE SCHOOL WOULD HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND HAVE AN HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT WHERE WE GO WITH THIS TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE'S NEEDS ARE SERVED.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND DOCTOR, I DON'T GET IT AT ALL.

YOU MENTIONED YOU DON'T.

I MEAN, I GET IT LESS THAN YOU, BUT HOW COMMON IS IT?

YOU'RE DEALING WITH THESE TRANSGENDER CHILDREN.

HOW -- YOU KNOW, I'VE HEARD DIFFERENT FIGURES FOR HOW MANY OF THE -- MUCH OF THE POPULATION IS GAY AND I DON'T KNOW HOW RELIABLE THOSE ARE, BUT GIVE US A ROUGH IDEA OF HOW COMMON TRANSGENDER IS.

>> IT IS A VERY DIFFICULT -- IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT QUESTION TO ANSWER BOTH IN TERMS -- BECAUSE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT GENDER IDENTITY, THE WAY THAT A PERSON IDENTIFIES WITH THEIR GENDER, AND FRANKLY, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S CHANGED.

I THINK ALL OF US ARE IN A DEMOGRAPHIC WHERE WE THOUGHT OF MALE/FEMALE.

WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER TIME IS PEOPLE ARE NOW LOOKING AT, WELL, MAYBE THERE'S MORE TO IT THAN THAT.

MAYBE THERE ARE PEOPLE THAT SAY I DO NOT HAVE A GENDER, I AM AGENDER OR NONGENDERED.

THAT'S A CONCEPT THAT'S FOREIGN TO ME, BUT I GUESS I CAN UNDERSTAND IT WHEN SOMEONE SAYS I FEEL THIS WAY OR I FEEL THAT WAY AND I FALL IN LOVE WITH WHO I FALL IN LOVE WITH.

SO THERE'S A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN SOMEONE SAYING THEY'RE BISEXUAL, I'M ATTRACTED TO MEN AND TO WOMEN, VERSUS SOMEONE WHO SAYS THEY'RE PANSEXUAL WHICH MEANS I'M ATTRACTED TO PEOPLE REGARDLESS OF WHETHER THEY EVEN DECLARE A GENDER OR NOT.

I KIND OF THINK OF THIS BECAUSE -- AGAIN K I GREW UP IN A VERY DIFFERENT MINDSET AS I THINK WE ALL DID.

ONCE MORE PEOPLE ARE ABLE TO DISCOVER THINGS ABOUT THEMSELVES AND TO PUSH THE ENVELOPE A LITTLE FURTHER TO SAY THIS IS WHERE WE'VE BEEN AND THIS IS WHERE I THINK I REALLY AM, IT'S KIND OF LIKE HOW THE, YOU KNOW, THE UNIVERSE, WE THOUGHT OF FIRST HAVING A SUN IN THE CENTER AND THE PLANETS AROUND IT -- I'M SORRY, THE EARTH IN THE CENTER AND THE SUN AND PLANETS GOING AROUND THE EARTH AND THEN WE SAW THAT THE SUN WAS IN THE CENTER AND THEN WE SAW THAT THERE WAS STUFF OUTSIDE OUR SOLAR SYSTEM AND EACH TIME WE PUSH THE ENVELOPE, WE DISCOVER A LITTLE BIT MORE.

IN TERMS OF HUMAN CONSCIOUSNESS ABOUT GENDER IDENTITY AND SEXUAL ORIENTATION, THIS IS KIND OF WHAT I SEE A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE DOING.

AGAIN, A LOT OF IT, IT JUST DOESN'T -- IT DOESN'T RESONATE WITH ME, BUT I HAVE TO ACCEPT THAT IT RESONATES WITH THESE PEOPLE.

SO THAT'S MY VERY LONG ANSWER TO SAY IN TERMS OF NUMBERS, NOBODY REALLY KNOWS.

PROBABLY, YOU KNOW, VERY, VERY, VERY ROUGH, BUT BETWEEN PEOPLE WHO ARE LGBTQ, PROBABLY SOMEWHERE BETWEEN 2% AND 10% OF THE POPULATION AND THAT'S A REALLY, REALLY, REALLY BROAD NUMBER.

BUT -- >> DOES THAT INCLUDE GAY PEOPLE?

>> THAT INCLUDES GAY PEOPLE, YES, SO LESBIAN, GAY, BISEXUAL, TRANSGENDER, QUEER QUESTIONING, THINGS LIKE THAT.

FRANKLY, EVEN THE USE OF THE WORD "QUEER," I STILL HAVE A HARD TIME USING IT BECAUSE WHEN I WAS A KID, I WAS CALLED THAT AND IT WAS NOT A GOOD THING.

SO I HEAR WITH QUEER STUDIES AT UNIVERSITY AND FRANKLY, I STILL CRINGE A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I AM 66 AND THAT'S WHO I AM, BUT WHEN OTHER PEOPLE USE IT, THEY USE IT AS A WAY OF AFFIRMING SOMETHING THAT GOES BEYOND WHAT I EVEN HAVE THE ABILITY TO CONCEIVE OF.

>> DOCTOR, SO MUCH INFORMATION AND TOO LITTLE TIME.

WE ONLY HAVE 30 SECONDS TO GO, BUT SINCE YOU ARE AN ACADEMIC, CAN YOU RECOMMEND FURTHER READING FOR OUR VIEWING AUDIENCE, FOR PEOPLE WHO WANT TO PURSUE THIS MORE?

>> OH, GEE.

THERE IS A -- OH SHOOT, THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

>> SORRY TO STUMP YOU ON THAT ONE BECAUSE YOU'RE LIKE ME.

IT'S ON THE TIP OF YOUR TONGUE PHYSICAL YOU'RE ASKED ABOUT IT LIVE ON TELEVISION.

>> THERE'S A GREAT BOOK AND I CAN'T REMEMBER THE AUTHOR, BUT THINK IT'S CALLED FAR FROM THE TREE AND IT'S ABOUT AN 800-PAGE BOOK OF PEOPLE'S STORIES, PEOPLE WHO HAVE VERY DIFFERENT WAYS OF LOOKING AT THE WORLD.

I'M AFRAID I CAN'T REMEMBER THE AUTHOR'S NAME.

>> I TELL YOU WHAT.

YOU GET IT AND WE'LL HAVE IT NEXT WEEK.

WE'LL SHARE IT WITH OUR VIEWING AUDIENCE ON THE NEXT EDITION OF DONNYBROOK OR NEXT UP.

KEN HALLER, YOU'RE THE BEST.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANKS, EVERYONE, FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU NEXT WEEK AT THIS TIME.

>> Announcer: DONNYBROOK IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE SUPPORT OF THE BETSY AND THOMAS PATTERSON FOUNDATION AND THE MEMBERS OF NINE PBS.