"GREATER BOSTON," I'M SUE O'CONNELL, IN FOR JIM BRAUDE.

WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT HOW COVID AND A NATIONWIDE STAFFING SHORTAGE HAVE BEEN A SOURCE OF STRESS FOR PHARMACISTS, AND A THREAT TO PATIENT SAFETY.

THE OUTGOING AND INCOMING PRESIDENTS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF PHARMACISTS JOIN ME.

THEN, LATER, SOME CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES HAVE SIGNALED THAT AFTER ROE IS DEAD, THEY'RE COMING FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE NEXT.

IS THAT LIKELY TO HAPPEN AND WHAT WOULD THAT MEAN FOR MASSACHUSETTS AND BEYOND?

♪♪ >> O'CONNELL: THE PAST TWO AND-A-HALF YEARS HAVE BEEN HARD ON EVERYONE, BUT ESSENTIAL WORKERS HAVE BORN THE BRUNT OF THE BURDEN.

THAT INCLUDES PHARMACISTS, WHO'VE BEEN PUTTING THEMSELVES AT RISK TO KEEP THEIR COMMUNITIES HEALTHY, WITH MANY EXPANDING THEIR SERVICES TO INCLUDE COVID TESTING AND VACCINES, WHILE DEALING WITH WIDESPREAD STAFFING SHORTAGES.

THESE CONDITIONS ARE NOT ONLY STRESSFUL AND POTENTIALLY DANGEROUS FOR PHARMACISTS, THEY'RE DANGEROUS FOR PATIENTS, TOO.

MORE THAN THREE-QUARTERS OF PHARMACY WORKERS SAY THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TIME TO DO THEIR RESPONSIBILITIES -- INCLUDING PATIENT CARE AND CLINICAL WORK-- SAFELY, ACCORDING TO A RECENT SURVEY FROM THE AMERICAN PHARMACISTS ASSOCIATION AND THE NATIONAL ALLIANCE OF STATE PHARMACY ASSOCIATIONS.

I'M JOINED NOW BY TWO LEADERS OF THE MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF PHARMACISTS: SAAD DINNO, THE GROUP'S CURRENT PRESIDENT, WHO'S ALSO A REGISTERED PHARMACIST AND THE PRESIDENT OF DINNO HEALTH PHARMACIES; AND RYANN ABRAMS, THE GROUP'S PRESIDENT-ELECT AND MANAGER OF PHARMACY OPERATIONS AT RITE AIDE.

>> O'Connell: CONGRATULATIONS TO BOTH OF YOU FOR INCOMING AND OUTGOING.

>> THANK YOU.

>> O'Connell: I WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT THE STRESSERS HAVE BEEN FOR PHARMACISTS OVER THE PAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS OVER THE COVID PANDEMIC?

>> SURE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK ONE OF THE NUMBER ONE STRESSORS HAS BEEN TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH CURRENT ASPECTS OF COVID.

THE LAST TWO AND A HALF YEARS HAVE DEALT WITH COVID.

IT STARTED BY, YOU KNOW, MASKING AND THEN MAKING SURE THAT WE HAVE, YOU KNOW, THE RIGHT ASPECTS OF OUR PHARMACY COVERAGE, SO THE ACTION BETWEEN THE PATIENT AND THE STAFF IS MINIMIZE-WISE, ABIDING ABOUT THE CURRENT GUIDELINES.

AND THEN AFTER THAT, I THINK, MY STAFF -- ESPECIALLY FOR ME, WITH 400 PHARMACIES, MY 70 PLUS STAFF, ARE ACTUALLY TREMENDOUS.

EVERY SINGLE ONE STEPPED UP TO THE PLATE, WHATEVER WAS NEEDED, AND THANK THANKFULLY WE SURVIVED COVID BUT NOW WITH OMICRON, THINGS HAVE CHANGED A BIT FROM THE STAFFING PERSPECTIVE.

I THINK THE STRES WAS THE STRESS WAS TRYING TO KEEP UP WITH THE MOST CURRENT C.D.C.

GUIDELINES, HAVING THE MOST ACCURATE INFORMATION TO PROVIDE OUR CLIENTS AND COSTUMERS, AND ON TOP OF THAT, TRYING TO DO THE DAILY ASPECTS WE DO AS PHARMACISTS AND PHARMACY STAFF ON A DAILY BASIS.

>> O'Connell: RYANN, IN MY HOUSEHOLD, WE HAVE A NUMBER OF PEOPLE WITH CHRONIC ILLNESSES.

AND WE HAVE ABOUT 20 PRESCRIPTIONS THAT WE HAVE TO GET FILLED ON A REGULAR BASIS.

I LIVE IN BOSTON, AND THERE ARE MULTIPLE LANGUAGES THAT OUR PHARMACIST HAS TO ADDRESS.

BEFORE COVID, I WAS IN AWE ON HOW THE TWO OR THREE PHARMACISTS THERE HAD SO MUCH WORK TO DO -- A SHOUT OUT TO MARIE AT C.V.S.

AND J.P -- AND WHAT WAS THE SITUATION FOR PHARMACISTS AND STAFF GOING INTO THE PANDEMIC?

ARE THEY AS STRESSED AS IT SEEMED TO ME, ALTHOUGH EXCELLENT BUT STRESSED?

>> PHARMACISTS HAVE BEEN REMARKABLE THROUGHOUT.

PHARMACISTS ARE NOT STRANGERS TO WORKING HARD FOR THE PHYSICAL ASPECTS OF THE JOB.

TISPHYSICAL, YOU'RE ON YOUR FEET, AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF MOVING PIECES ON ANY GIVEN DAY.

THEY'RE NO STRANGERS TO THE PHYSICAL DEMAND, AND NO STRANGERS TO THE MENTAL DEMANDS, EITHER.

THEY'RE CONSTANTLY THINKING ABOUT PATIENT SAFETY.

THAT IS ALWAYS FOREFRONT IN YOUR MIND, GETTING TO KNOW YOUR COSTUMERS AND YOUR PATIENTS, AND MAKING SURE THAT THEY HAVE WHAT THEY NEED.

SO THAT DIDN'T CHANGE.

THE BIGGEST CHANGE THAT I THINK COVID BROUGHT WAS THAT EMOTIONAL PIECE.

WE'VE ALWAYS HAD THOSE EMOTIONAL CONNECTIONS WITH OUR PATIENTS AND OUR COSTUMERS, BUT THERE WAS JUST SO MUCH MORE BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, WE HAD THAT MUCH MORE PEOPLE THAT WERE COMING ING, IN, PEOPLE COMING IN THAT WE HAD NEVER SEEN BEFORE, ASKING US FOR ADVICE AND RECOMMENDATIONS, IF THEY WERE SICK, IF THEY WERE HEALTHY.

WE WERE SEEING IT ALL.

SO THAT WAS A BIG CHANGE THAT HAPPENED, JUST THAT EMOTIONAL PIECE.

THERE WAS A LOT OF STRESS.

AND PATIENTS BROUGHT THAT INTO THE PHARMACISTS.

THEY HAD A LOT OF QUESTIONS.

THERE WAS SOMETIMES SOME ANGER, SADNESS, AND WE WERE DEALING WITH ALL OF IT.

SO COMBINEING COMBINING IT ALL TOGETHER WAS A TOUGH COMBINATION, BUT PHARMACISTS ARE REMARKABLE AND RESILIENT AND STEADFAST, AND REALLY JUST GOING INTO THE STORES AND, YOU KNOW, THE WORLD HAS CHANGED OUTSIDE, AND EVERYTHING GOT FLIPPED UPSIDE DOWN IN A MINUTE, AND THEN YOU WOULD WALK INTO THE PHARMACY, AND IT WAS LIKE NOTHING CHANGED.

MAYBE A MASK, BUT THEY WERE STILL THERE DOING THEIR JOBS, GETTING IT DONE.

THEY WERE THERE FOR THEIR COMMUNITY AND THEIR CUSTOMER AND PATIENTS, AND IT WAS REMARKABLE.

I'M SO PROUD OF OUR PHARMACISTS.

I WORK FOR RITE-AID, AND ALL OF THE PHARMACISTS THAT JUST CONTINUE TO, YOU KNOW, KEEP ON GOING THROUGHOUT.

>> O'Connell: SAAD, I WITNESSED AT MY PHARMACY A SORT OF GAME OF TELEPHONE IN TRANSLATION BETWEEN ONE OF THE PHARMACY WORKERS, THE PHARMACY TECHNICIANS, THE PHARMACIST AND A CLIENTS, A CUSTOMER, WHO WAS LOOKING FOR -- HAD SOME MISINFORMATION OR DISINFORMATION ABOUT COVID, AND THEY WERE ASKING PATIENTS DURING A VERY BUSY TIME, WHERE THEY WERE PATIENTLY EXPLAINING, GET THE VACCINE, YOU NEED TO GET THE VACCINE.

I RYANN HAS THINK RYANN HAS TOUCHED ON THIS A LITTLE BIT, BUT WHAT IS THE TOLL THAT THIS HAS TAKEN ON PHARMACISTS, AND WHY SHOULD WE, AS COSTUMERS, BE CONCERNED ABOUT IT?

>> WE HAVE HANDLED -- I THINK IF YOU ASK ANY OF MY STAFF MEMBERS, PROBABLY THE NUMBER ONE COMPLAINT FROM THEM IS THE AMOUNT OF PHONE CALLS WE HAVE HANDLED OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS.

AND IT IS ALL BECAUSE OUR COSTUMERS ARE LOOKING TO US AS ACCESSIBLE HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS, VERY ACCESSIBLE TO OUR COMMUNITIES AND OUR STAFF -- SORRY, TO OUR COMMUNITY AND OUR COSTUMERS AND PATIENTS.

IT IS ANSWERING ALL OF THOSE PHONE CALLS ONE AFTER THE OTHER.

ESPECIALLY WHEN IT CAME TO VACCINES AND SCHEDULING, AND ETC., ETC.

ON TOP OF TAKING CARE OF OUR DAILY ASPECTS OF TAKING CARE OF OUR PATIENTS THAT RELY ON OUR SERVICES ON AN EVERYDAY BASIS.

THAT ADDED A LOT OF STRESS.

THAT ADDED -- I THINK I WAS CHECKING ON MORE OF MY STAFF THAN ANY TIME I'VE BEEN A PHARMA PHARMACIST FOR OVER 30 YEARS.

I KEPT CHECKING ON THEM EVERY DAY BECAUSE I WAS CONCERNED ABOUT THE STRESS LEVEL.

AND ALL OF THESE PHONE CALLS AND ALL OF THIS EXTRA WORK, WHAT IT HAS CAUSED.

I GUESS THEY HANDLED IT WITH AN AMAZING EFFORT AND ASSISTANCE, BUT YOU COULD SEE ON THEIR FACE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT GETS TIRESOME A LITTLE BIT AFTER A WHILE.

BUT WE HAD A MISSION, AND THAT WAS TO TAKE CARE OF OUR CLIENTS.

>> O'Connell: RYANN, THERE WAS NEWS WHEN ONE OF THE CHAINS MADE AN ANNOUNCEMENT THAT THE PHARMACY WOULD BE CLOSED BETWEEN NOON AND 1:00, SO THE PHARMACISTS AND STAFF COULD TAKE LUNCH.

THAT WAS SHOCKING THAT THAT HAD TO BE DONE, THAT IT WASN'T HAPPENING NORMALLY.

THAT A PHARMACIST, WHO HAS A VERY HIGH-STRESS JOB, WITH A LOW ABILITY TO MAKE ANY MISTAKES, HAD TO MAKE SURE THEY WERE PROTECTED FOR LUNCH TIME.

WHAT ARE YOU AND THE MASSACHUSETTS ASSOCIATION OF PHARMACISTS, WHAT ARE YOU LOOKING FOR -- OR ARE YOU LOOKING FOR CHANGES OR ACCOMMODATIONS DURING THIS PERIOD TO BOTH HELP THE PHARMACISTS AND TO KEEP THEIR ACCURACY AT THE HIGH LEVEL THAT IT USUALLY IS?

>> WORKPLACE SAFETY, AND PATIENT SAFETY IS CERTAINLY ON THE FOREFRONT OF OUR MISSION AND WHAT WE WANT TO DO AS AN ASSOCIATION.

WE REPRESENT PHARMACISTS AND PHARMACY PROFESSIONALS THROUGHOUT THE COMMONWEALTH AND THAT WORK IN ALL DIFFERENT SETTINGS.

SO ALTHOUGH THEY ARE COMMUNITY PHARMACISTS, WHICH IS PROBABLY YOUR MOST VISIBLE PHARMACIST, PHARMACISTS EXIST PRETTY MUCH IN EVERY ASPECT OF HEALTH.

THEY'RE IN HOSPITALS, CLINIC SETTINGS, INDEPENDENT PRACTICE, CONSULTING, LONG-TERM CARE.

SO PHARMACISTS ARE IN A NUMBER OF DIFFERENT SETTINGS, AND WE REPRESENT ALL OF THEM.

WE WANT PHARMACISTS TO BE ABLE TO USE THEIR EXPERTISE AND WHAT THEY'RE TRAINED TO DO, AND WORK AT THE HIGHEST LEVEL OF THEIR LICENSE.

AND SO TO DO THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'LL CERTAINLY ADVOCATE FOR LAWS AND LEGISLATION THAT WILL ALLOW PHARMACISTS TO DO THAT.

THE TOPICS GO BACK TO THAT.

EVERY PHARMACIST I INTERVIEWED WANTS TO HELP PEOPLE.

THAT'S REALLY WHAT WE WANT TO DO.

AND SOMETIMES WE NEED THOSE RULES AND REGULATIONS IN PLACE TO ALLOW US TO DO THAT SAFELY AND EFFECTIVELY.

>> O'Connell: SAAD, AS DIFFICULT AS THE PAST YEARS HAVE BEEN, I KNOW THAT DR. ANTHONY FAUCI WAS ON WITH JIM AND MARGORIE ON BOSTON PUBLIC RADIO TODAY, AND WE TALKED ABOUT THE FAUCI EFFECT.

THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF PEOPLE, YOUNG PEOPLE WHO HAVE DECIDED TO CHOOSE A CAREER IN MEDICINE BECAUSE OF WHAT THEY HAVE SEEN IN THE INEQUITIES AND CHALLENGES THAT COVID HAS EXPOSED.

ARE YOU SEEING MORE INTEREST, A GREATER DEMAND OF YOUNG PEOPLE AND INDIVIDUALS WHO ARE CHOOSING TO GO INTO THE PHARMACY PRACTICE OR GET THEIR PHARMACY DEGREE?

IS COLLEGE ENROLLMENT UP IN THAT WORLD?

>> I MEAN, IN GENERAL, THE ENROLLMENT OF PHARMACISTS IS SOMEWHAT AT A PLATEAU RIGHT NOW.

BUT SPEAKING OF DOCTOR -- I HAD A HIGH SCHOOL STUDENT TODAY START A THREETHREE-WEEK INTERNSHIP TODAY BECAUSE SHE IS INTERESTED IN PHARMACY.

PHARMACY PHARMACY HAS ALWAYS BEEN A PROFESSION THAT WANTS TO HELP PATIENTS AND COSTUMERS.

A LOT OF THE YOUNG INDIVIDUALS COME IN AND INTERVIEW US AS TO WHY WE ARE PHARMACISTS, AND THEY'RE BAFFLED AS TO HOW MUCH INTERACTION WE HAVE WITH PATIENTS AND HOW ACCESSIBLE WE ARE TO THE COSTUMERS.

IT IS AN INCREDIBLE PROFESSION.

WE HAVE SOME ISSUES TO DEAL WITH IN OTHER WORDS IN REGARDS TO WORK ASPECTS AND LONG HOURS, AND DEALING WITH A PAYMENT MODEL THAT IS PROBABLY NOT SUSTAINABLE FOR THE FUTURE.

IT IS A GREAT PROFESSION.

MY SON IS GRADUATING AS A THIRD GENERATION PHARMACIST, IN A COUPLE OF DAYS, FROM PHARMACY.

THE THERETHERE ARE A LOT OF YOUNG MEN AND WOMEN WHO HAVE CHOSEN THIS PROFESSION, WHICH IS A GREAT PROFESSION.

HEALTH CARE PROVIDERS IS WHAT WE'RE AFTER, AND WE DESERVE THAT STATUS.

>> O'Connell: RYANN WHAT CAN WE DO AS COSTUMERS?

AS THE FOLKS THAT ARE ON THE RECEIVING END OF THE GIFTS AND SKILLS OF THE PHARMACISTS AND THE TECHNICIANS AND EVERYONE WORKING BEHIND THAT PLEXIGLASS?

WHAT CAN WE DO TO HELP?

I KNOW WE SHOULD BE CHECKING OUR PILLS AND READING THE INSTRUCTIONS AND ASKING QUESTIONS, AND LOOKING AT THE PILLS TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE THE RIGHT PILLS ON THE PRESCRIPTION.

BUT WHEN IT COMES TO THE INTERACTION WITH THE PHARMACIES, WHAT CAN WE DO TO BE BETTER COMMUNITY MEMBERS?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, WE'RE THERE TO HELP OUR COMMUNITY.

I THINK IT IS GREAT WHEN THE COMMUNITIES VALUE THEIR PHARMACISTS.

I WOULD SAY CONTINUE TO VALUE WHAT YOUR PHARMACIST CAN PROVIDE.

CONTINUE TO BE A CHAMPION FOR THE SERVICES THAT THE PHARMACIST IS GIVING THEIR COSTUMERS AND THEIR COMMUNITIES.

WHETHER IT IS GOING OUT AND DOING FLU CLINICS OR GOING TO SCHOOLS AND LOCAL BUSINESSES AND ORGANIZATIONS, WE REALLY ARE INTERWOVEN INTO THE FABRIC OF OUR COMMUNITIES.

I WOULD JUST SAY VALUE WHAT YOUR PHARMACIST CAN DO.

KNOW THAT WE DO SO MUCH MORE THAN JUST DISPENSE PILLS.

I THINK THAT IS THE BIGGEST THING, IS TO KNOW THAT WE'RE CAPABLE AND WE DO SO MUCH MORE.

OUR JOBS ARE IMPORTANT.

AND THEN IF THERE IS ANY LEGISLATION OR ACTION SUPPORTING PHARMACISTS, YOU KNOW, WE HOPE YOU CAN SUPPORT THAT IN THAT RESPECT, BECAUSE THAT WILL BE A BIG PIECE OF, UM, EVOLVING OUR PROFESSION AND MOVING IT FORWARD.

>> O'Connell: SAAD, I'LL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD.

DO YOU HAVE ANYTHING TO ADD TO THAT?

>> WE HEAR FROM OUR COSTUMERS ALL OF THE TIME.

YOU BEING A CUSTOMER AS WELL OF A PHARMACY, YOU KNOW, I'M GOING TO CALL YOU FIRST.

I'M GOING TO TRY TO GET THE ANSWER FROM YOU FIRST BEFORE I CONTACT MY OTHER PROVIDERS BECAUSE I KNOW I CAN REACH YOU.

I KNOW POTENTIALLY IF YOU DON'T KNOW THE ANSWER, YOU'RE GOING TO GET IT.

I JUST TELL THE CONSUMERS AND COSTUMERS, ASK QUESTIONS.

DON'T LEAVE A PHARMACY WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT YOUR MEDICATION IS ALL ABOUT.

KNOW THE INTERACTIONS AND THE SIDE EFFECTS, ETC.

THAT'S OUR JOB AS PHARMACISTS.

THAT'S WHY WE WENT TO SCHOOL.

WE KNOW MEDICATIONS, WE'RE THE EXPERTS OF MEDICATIONS.

PLEASE ASK QUESTIONS.

THAT IS WHY WE'RE THERE.

THAT'S WHY WE'RE THERE FOR OUR COSTUMERS AND CONSUMERS IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

>> O'CONNELL: SAAD DINNO, RYANN ABRAMS, THANKS.

WHEN A DRAFT SUPREME COURT DECISION OVERTURNING ROE V. WADE LEAKED LAST WEEK, IT SENT SHOCK WAVES THROUGH THE NATION, AS A 50-YEAR RIGHT TO SAFE AND LEGAL ABORTIONS SEEMED TO EVAPORATE IN AN INSTANT, AND IT LOOKED LIKE OTHER REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS LIKE BIRTH CONTROL MIGHT BE ON THE FUTURE CHOPPING BLOCK AS WELL.

AS IF THAT WEREN'T BAD ENOUGH, JUSTICE ALITO'S MAJORITY DECISION MAY HAVE LEFT THE DOOR OPEN TO FUTURE ATTACKS ON OTHER IMPORTANT AND HARD-WON RIGHTS.

CHIEF AMONG THEM?

SAME-SEX MARRIAGE.

JOINING ME TO DISCUSS IS MARY BONAUTO, CIVIL RIGHTS PROJECT DIRECTOR FOR G.L.B.T.Q LEGAL ADVOCATES AND DEFENDERS, ALSO KNOWN AS GLAD; AND ARLINE ISAACSON, PRESIDENT OF ISSACSON POLITICAL CONSULTING AND A VOLUNTEER CO-CHAIR OF THE MASSACHUSETTS GAY AND LESBIAN POLITICAL CAUCUS.

>> O'Connell: SO, SADLY IT LOOKS LIKE WE'RE GETTING THE BAND BACK TOGETHER AGAIN HERE, FOLKS, WHICH I'M HAPPY TO SEE YOU, BUT NOT THRILLED ABOUT THE CONVERSATION WE'RE ABOUT TO HAVE.

AS YOU TWO WERE KEY TO SECURING THE MARRIAGE RIGHTS FOR AMERICANS.

MARY, I WANT TO START WITH YOU FIRST.

BECAUSE YOU'RE THE LAWYER AND I'M NOT, SO I WANT TO ASK YOU SOME QUESTIONS.

CAN YOU JUST TELL US, AND EXPLAIN IT TO ME SO I CAN UNDERSTAND, HOW THE RIGHT TO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE IS LIKE A JANGA PIECE OR A DOMINO PIECE ON TOP OF THE RIGHT TO A LEGAL ABORTION.

>> OKAY.

LET'S TRY TO UNPACK THAT FOR A SECOND.

SO, FIRST OF ALL, JUST STARTING WITH THE ABORTION PART OF THIS, THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THIS OPINION IS DEEPLY DISTURBING.

I KNOW IT IS A DRAFT, BUT I DON'T EXPECT THE FINAL TO BE LESS DISTURBING.

AND I SAY THAT IN PART BECAUSE OF THE FRAMEWORK, AND THAT'S WHAT IS GOING TO BE YOUR CONNECTION FOR IT.

OKAY?

SO YOU JUST HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE 14th AMENDMENT, WHICH WAS BORNE IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE CIVIL WAR, AND WHICH REALLY REMADE OUR NATION, USED THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE FOR INSPIRATION TO FINALLY DO WHAT WE WERE MEANT TO DO BACK IN 1776, AND SAY WE ARE ALL BORN FREE AND ABLE.

THAT PROMISE HAS BEEN BETRAYED BECAUSE OF THE INSTITUTION OF SLAVERY AND CIVIL WAR, AND THEN WAS REMADE IN THE 14th AMENDMENT WHICH PROMISES US ALL LIBERTY AND EQUALITY AS WELL.

THE REASON THESE ARE CONNECTED, MARRIAGE AND ABORTION, IS BECAUSE ABORTION ALSO FINDS ITS ROOTS IN THE IDEA OF PRIVACY AT THE TIME, BUT THE CONSTITUTIONAL TEXT ABOUT LIBERTY, THAT PEOPLE HAVE A RIGHT TO MAKE SOME VERY IMPORTANT DECISIONS FOR THEMSELVES.

THAT SOME RIGHTS ARE SO IMPORTANT, THEY ARE FUNDAMENTAL TO THE INDIVIDUAL AND NOT FOR THE GOVERNMENT TO DECIDE.

MARRIAGE IS SUCH A THING, TOO.

INTIMACY IS SUCH A THING, TOO.

USING CONTRACEPTION IS SUCH A THING, ALSO.

SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED OVER THE YEARS THAT COURT HAS GOTTEN QUITE AGGRESSIVE ABOUT SAYING IT IS NOT FOR US TO DECIDE WHAT THE FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ARE.

THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T MENTION IT.

THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T MENTION A LOT OF THINGS, WHICH ARE SOME LEGAL OPINIONS.

THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T MENTION IT, AND WE HAVE TO LOOK TO HISTORY, AND THIS OPINION GOES BACK TO THE 13th CENTURY, AT A TIME WHEN WOMEN DIDN'T EVEN HAVE LEGAL STANDING, YOU KNOW, TO SAY WE HAVE TO LOOK BACK AT HISTORY, AND HAS THIS RIGHT BEEN PROTECTED?

AND THEN THEY GET INTO, WELL, WAS THIS SPECIFIC RIGHT PROTECTED FOR THESE SPECIFIC PEOPLE?

BUT FUNDAMENTAL RIGHTS ARE NOT DETERMINED BY WHO WAS EXCLUDED FROM THEM IN THE PAST.

AND WE HAVE PLENTY OF PRECEDENT IN THIS NATION THAT I THINK THE SUPREME COURT LOOKED PAST, TO RESPECT PEOPLES BODILY INTEGRITY AND DECISIONS ABOUT HOW THEY CONDUCT THEIR MOST PRIVATE AFFAIRS.

AND THE COURT DIDN'T WANT TO GO THERE, AT LEAST IN THIS DRAFT OPINION.

SO THIS IS CONCERNING NOT ONLY FOR ABORTION; IT IS CONCERNING FOR OTHER RIGHTS AS WELL.

AS YOU MENTIONED, INCLUDING SAME-SEX MARRIAGE.

>> O'Connell: WE'LL GET BACK TO THAT IN A SECOND.

ARLINE, I WANT TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT THE POLITICAL PART FOR A SECOND.

I HAD BEEN HEARING FOR DECADES AS FOLKS WERE LOOKING AT ROE VS. WADE AND COMPARING IT TO RIGHTS IN OTHER COUNTRIES LIKE GREAT BRITAIN, AND ALSO TALKING ABOUT SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, THE WEAKNESS THAT ROE HAD IS IT DIDN'T MOVE THROUGH THE COURT SYSTEM OR THROUGH THE LAW SYSTEM -- YOU KNOW, THERE WEREN'T LAWS AND PUBLIC OPINIONS AND PEOPLE DIDN'T GET TO VOTE ON IT.

SO IT WAS JUST THIS LEGAL OPINION, RATHER THAN BEING HELD UP BY PEOPLE VOTING FOR IT, AS SAME-SEX MARRIAGE HAS.

AS TERRIFYING THIS IS AS A POTENTIAL ATTACK ON SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, ARE YOU FEELING A LITTLE BETTER THAT AT LEAST FOR SAME-SEX MARRIAGE, WE HAVE A HISTORY OF PEOPLE VOTING TO SUPPORT IT THROUGH THEIR STATE LAWS AND THROUGH THEIR CITY LAWS AND IN OTHER WAYS?

IT IS NOT JUST THE SUPREME COURT RULING ON IT.

>> WOULD THAT WE COULD COUNT ON THAT.

YOU'RE RIGHT ABOUT MASSACHUSETTS.

WE HAVE THE BLESSINGS OF BEING IN A STATE THAT HAS VOTED TO EMPLOYEE TEXT OUR -- VOTED TO PROTECT OUR RIGHT TO SAME-SEX MARRIAGE.

UNLIKE SOME STATES THAT CRIMINALIZE SEXUAL BEHAVIOR BETWEEN CONSENTING ADULTS IN PRIVATE, THERE ARE MANY STATES WHERE THAT IS ILLEGAL.

WE'RE LUCKY WE DON'T FACE ALL OF THOSE CHALLENGES HERE.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THERE ARE A LOT OF STATES THAT WOULD LOVE TO ELIMINATE THE RIGHT TO MARRY.

THE RELIGIOUS RIGHT IS CHOMPING AT THE BIT TO DO THIS.

IF THIS ENDS UP TO THE SUPREME COURT'S FINAL DECISION, YEAH, THEY'RE GOING TO BE GUNNING FOR US, TOO.

IT DOES NOT JUST AFFECT PEOPLE WHO CARE ABOUT REPRODUCTIVE RIGHTS, BUT IT AFFECTS OUR MARRIAGE RIGHTS, POTENTIALLY IT AFFECTS OUR RIGHT TO SEXUAL INTIMACY.

AS MARY SAID, CONTRACEPTION IS IMPLICATED BY THIS POTENTIALLY.

AND IT WILL HAPPEN IN OTHER STATES, THERE IS NO QUESTION.

A LOT OF STATES HAVE ON THEIR BOOKS ALREADY PROHIBITIONS AGAINST THE RIGHT TO MARRY.

>> O'Connell: AND ALSO STATES HAVE THE RIGHT TO FIRE PEOPLE.

MANY STATES, IF THEY'RE GAY OR LESBIAN AS WELL.

THAT IS STILL SOMETHING THAT IS OUT THERE.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT FEDERAL PROTECTION.

I WANT TO TAKE A LOOK AT AN EXCERPT TO ALITO'S DRAFT: THE INESCAPABLE CONCLUSION IS A RIGHT TO ABORTION IS NOT DEEPLY ROOTED IN THE NATION'S HISTORY AND TRADITIONS.

I'VE HEARD A NUMBER OF PEOPLE SAY THINGS THAT ONE OF THE RELATIONSHIPS REASON THAT ABORTION WASN'T IN CONSTITUTION, IS THEY LOOKED AT IT AS A MEDICAL DECISION.

THERE IS NO RIGHT TO GET YOUR TOOTH PULLED IN THE CONSTITUTION.

THEY DIDN'T FEEL THE NEED TO MAKE SURE YOU HAD THE RIGHT TO DO THAT.

WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ABOUT THIS DEEPLY ROOTED PHRASE THAT ALITO USES SEVERAL TIMES?

>> THERE HAS BEEN ON THE SUPREME COURT FOR YEARS HOW TO DETERMINE WHETHER SOMETHING IS A FUNDAMENTAL RIGHT IF IT IS NOT NAMED IN THE CONSTITUTION, AS MOST THINGS ARE NOT.

ONE OF THEM IS THE IDEA THAT IT IS DEEPLY ROOTED.

BUT IT DEPENDS ON HOW YOU LOOK AT IT.

DO YOU LOOK FOR THE SPECIFIC PRACTICE OF ABORTION AND WHAT STATE LAWS WERE IN 1868?

OR, AS OTHERS HAVE ARGUED, OTHER SUPREME COURT DECISIONS HAVE STATED YOU LOOK TO THE TRADITIONS THAT WE'VE HAD AND THE TRADITIONS THEY'VE LEFT BEHIND.

YOU LOOK TO THIS IDEA THAT YOU CAN'T ALWAYS KNOW WHAT LIBERTY IS IN 2022, MEASUREDBY1922 OR 13th CENTURY STANDARDS.

AND THAT IS VERY FRAMING OF THE ISSUE AS PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IS THERE A LONG-STANDING RIGHT TO SEXUAL INTIMACY, MARRIAGE OF SAME-SEX COUPLES, CONTRACEPTION?

THOSE EACH HAVE TO BE CONSIDERED ON THEIR OWN MERITS, I WOULD SAY.

BUT THAT'S THE KIND OF ANALYSIS THAT IS VERY CONCERNING HERE.

IT IS VERY, VERY CONSTRICTED AND IS REALLY INTENDED TO LIMIT THE FREEDOM AND EQUALITY THAT WE WERE PROMISED IN THE 14th CENTURY WHEN UR WHEN OUR COUNTRY WAS REMADE.

>> ALITO HAS ASSERTED THIS WILL ONLY APPLY TO ABORTION.

BUT IT FEELS LIKE THE LEGAL EQUIVALENT OF SAYING, DON'T YOU WORRY YOUR PRETTY LITTLE HEAD ABOUT THIS, WE WON'T COME AFTER YOUR OTHER RIGHTS.

BUT THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THEY'RE COMING AFTER A RIGHT THAT HAS BEEN IN PLACE FOR 50 YEARS.

THERE IS NO REASON TO BELIEVE, KNOWING HOW SOME FEEL ABOUT OUR RIGHTS AND OUR EQUALITY, THEY'LL BE COMING AFTER US.

AND MAYBE ALITO WON'T BE VOTING AGAINST OTHERS, BUT OTHERS MIGHT.

>> O'Connell: WE'RE ALL OLD ENOUGH TO REMEMBER HAVING DISCUSSIONS WITH OUR GAY BROTHERS, WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT ABORTION WAS TO WHAT WE WOULD CALL THE GAY COMMUNITY.

THEY WOULD SAY ABORTION IS NOT AN LGBTQ RIGHT, AND IT'S NOT AN ISSUE WE SHOULD BE CONCERNED ABOUT.

I'M WONDERING IF, ARLINE, FEEL THERE IS A MOMENT OF PEOPLE COMING TOGETHER AND UDERSTANDING HOW INTERSECTIONALLY ALL OF OUR RIGHTS AROUND OR BODIES AND HOW THEY'RE INTERCONNECTED, AND HOW THEY'RE UNDER ASSAULT?

AND THIS MAY BE THE MOMENT WHERE THE COMMON ENEMY RETURNS, AND THE DEMOCRATS AND THE PROGRESSIVES AND THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY GET TOGETHER AND ACTUALLY ARE ABLE TO LET THE DEMOCRATS HOLD THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE WHEN THE MID-TERMS COME, OR IS THIS GOING TO BE ANOTHER BATTLE WHERE PEOPLE SAY I'M NOT GOING TO VOTE?

THERE IS NO PERFECT CHOICE.

>> YOU'RE RAISING AN IMPORTANT POINT.

ALTHOUGH THERE ARE PLENTY OF PEOPLE IN THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY WHO HAVE THE NEED TO AN ABORTION, NOT SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY MAY HAVE BEEN SEXUALLY ASSAULTED AND RAPED, BUT PERHAPS THEY AREN'T READY TO BUILD A FAMILY AT THIS POINT, BUT ABOVE AND BEYOND THAT, IT IS ALL ABOUT WHAT WE CAN DO IN THE PRIVACY OF OUR HOMES WITH OUR BODIES, WHICH IS THE COMMON THREAD THROUGHOUT ALL OF THIS.

AND YES, IN CONGRESS, YOU'RE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT, SUE, MITCH McCONNELL AND THE CONSERVATIVE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS ARE ALREADY TALKING ABOUT AMENDING THE LAW IN CONGRESS TO PROHIBIT ABORTION RIGHTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IF THEY CAN DO THAT, THEY CAN DO THE SAME THING WITH OUR RIGHTS AS WELL.

IT IS AN EXTRAORDINARILY DANGEROUS PRECEDENTED.

>> O'Connell: MARY, YOU'VE ARGUED IN FRONT OF THE SUPREME COURT A FEW TIMES.

I'M JUST WONDERING, WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION?

WHAT WAS YOUR FEELINGS WHEN THIS DRAFT OPINION WAS LEAKED?

>> JUSTICE ALITO AND I HAD A GREAT TIME AT THE ORAL ARGUMENT.

HE WAS VERY VIGOROUS, AS WAS JUSTICE SCALIA.

WHICH IS PART OF THEIR JOB.

WHEN I SAW THE DECISION OF THE DRAFT OPINION, I WILL SAY THAT EVEN THOUGH WE EXPECTED IT, AND EVEN THOUGH IT RAISED A LOT OF THINGS THAT I READ FROM THERE BEFORE, IT WAS STILL SHOCKING TO SEE IT.

AND TO REVERSE SOMETHING THAT HAD BEEN APPROVED 50 YEARS AGO, AND AFFIRMED REPEATEDLY, AND TO HAVE IT CHARACTERIZED AS SOMETHING THAT NEVER HAD ANY BASIS IN LAWMAKERS AND ONLY IN POLICY, AND SO OUR LIBERTIES ARE -- I HAVE TO ADMIT, I WAS SHOCKED.

I DO WANT TO SAY QUICKLY THAT IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE NOT ONLY HAVE THE VOTES WE HAVE, BUT WE HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL ADJUDICATION FROM THE MASSACHUSETTS JUDICIAL COURT.

MEANING IT IS NOT GOING AWAY HERE.

AND I THINK THAT IS IMPORTANT FOR PEOPLE TO REMEMBER.

AND, AGAIN, I SAY THAT, AND WHO THE HECK KNOWS WHAT THE FUTURE BRINGS.

BUT OUR RIGHTS, UNLIKE THOSE IN MANY OTHER STATES, ARE NOT CONTINGENT ON WHAT THE SUPREME COURT DOES IN THIS SITUATION.

AND I DO WANT TO SAY THAT FOR ALL OF THE CONCERN, THAT WE ALL VERY LEGITIMATELY HAVE, I THINK MANY, MANY OF US ARE DETERMINED TOPOINT OUT ALL TO POINT OUT ALL OF THE WAYS IN WHICH MARRIAGE EQUALITY IS ALREADY SUPPORTED IN THE LAW.

IT IS NOT ALL GOING TO TURN ON HOW THE COURT HAS CONSTRUED ROE AND CASEY.

I WANT TO PUT THAT OUT THERE AT THE SAME TIME I WANT TO SAY THAT THIS DRAFT IS DEEPLY, DEEPLY WRONG AND DEEPLY DAMAGING.

>> O'Connell: I'VE GOT TO LEAVE IT THERE.

I'M SURE WE'LL TALK ABOUT THIS MORE.

>> O'CONNELL: MARY BONAUTO, ARLINE ISAACSON, THANKS.

THAT'S IT FOR TONIGHT, WE'LL BE BACK TOMORROW.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD NIGHT.

Captioned by Media Access Group at WGBH access.wgbh.org ♪♪