SARAYA: I’M SARAYA WINTERSMITH TONIGHT, REPORTER TORI BEDFORD JOINS US ON THE LATEST UNK COLLEGE CAMPUS PROTEST, AND WATCHED THE RIGHT WAY TO RESPOND TO THESE PROTESTS?

IS THERE ONE?

WE WILL HEAR FROM THE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU WHO SAYS MANY HAVE GONE ABOUT IT ALL WRONG.

PROTESTERS ARE STILL CAMPING OUT AT HARVARD AND M.I.T., DEMANDING THEIR UNIVERSITIES CUT TIES TO ISRAEL OVER THE COUNTRY’S ATTACKS ON PALESTINIANS IN GAZA.

TODAY, PROTESTERS AT M.I.T.

BLOCKED UP PARKING GARAGE ENTRANCE BEFORE CAMBRIDGE POLICE BROKE UP THE PROTEST, MAKING SEVERAL ARRESTS.

AND IT UMASS AMHERST EARLIER THIS WEEK, ADMINISTRATORS CALL POLICE TO BREAK UP THE ENCAMPMENTS AND ARRESTED AROUND 130 PEOPLE.

TORI BEDFORD HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THE PROTEST CLOSELY AND SHE JOINS ME NOW WITH THE LATEST.

YOU WERE ON SITE THIS WEEK.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL ME ABOUT THOSE DUAL DEMONSTRATIONS THAT HAPPENED AT M.I.T.?

TORI: M.I.T.

HAS SEEN A NUMBER OF COUNTER PROTESTERS COME IN, EARLIER THIS WEEK THERE WERE OR THAN 100 PEOPLE THAT CAME ONTO THE STEPS ACROSS THE STREET FOR HER SORT OF A PRO-ISRAELI COUNTER PROTEST.

THEY HAD A POLICE DETAIL, THEY BLOCKED OFF MALL -- ALL OF MASS AVE. AND THE POLICE CAME IN EARLY IN THE DAY AND PUT IN FENCING, KIND OF A CURTAIN AROUND THE ACTUAL ENCAMPMENT.

IT HAD ABOUT 30 OR 40 TENTHS, SOME OF THE COUNTER PROTESTERS HAD COME OVER TO THE OTHER SIDE.

THEY WERE HANGING THE ISRAELI FLAG AND HANGING POSTERS.

THERE A POSTER OUTSIDE THE IN CAMERA THAT SAYS DON’T TAKE DOWN ANYONE ELSE’S WHATEVER.

THERE WERE COUNTER PROTESTERS THAT CAME OVER TO SPEAK WITH AND ENGAGE AND YELL AT WITH A MEGAPHONE PRO-PALESTINIAN PROTESTERS IN THE ENCAMPMENT, BUT THEY HAD COME THEREFORE THIS PREPRINT -- PREPLANNED ISRAEL DAY OF INDEPENDENCE.

THEY HAD PLANNED TO COME THERE AND HAVE A CELEBRATION, HAVE SOME FOOD AND MUSIC.

THEY SAID THAT THE UNIVERSITY HAD TOLD THEM TO GO SOMEWHERE ELSE.

I REACHED OUT TO M.I.T.

AND THEY SUGGESTED OTHER LOCATIONS.

THEY DIDN’T CANCEL THE EVENT, THEY ALERTED THE POLICE AND LET THEM KNOW THAT BOTH EVENTS WERE GOING TO BE HAPPENING.

THEY WERE PRETTY PEACEFUL.

WHAT I’VE SEEN AT MY TEA IS THAT THE ENCAMPMENT ITSELF IS VERY PEACEFUL.

THERE HAS NOT BEEN A TON OF CONFLICT.

OCCASIONALLY A COUNTER PROTESTER WILL COME INTO THE ENCAMPMENT AND BRING A LOUDSPEAKER OR MEGAPHONE AND TELL PROTESTERS THERE, SHAME ON YOU, I SAW THIS INDEPENDENT LAWYER COME IN AND HE WAS YELLING AND TRYING TO CONFRONT AND STORE UP THINGS WITHIN THE ENCAMPMENT, BUT IN THE ENCAMPMENT ITSELF, THE PROTESTERS ARE PEACEFUL.

THEY JUST WANT TO STAY ON MESSAGE.

THEY ARE ASKING THE UNIVERSITY TO CUT TIES WITH THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTER.

SHOWING THAT SINCE 2015, THE UNIVERSITY HAS RECEIVED ABOUT $11 MILLION IN FUNDING FROM THE ISRAELI DEFENSE MINISTRY.

THEY GET A LOT OF MILITARY FUNDING IN GENERAL AND THEY’RE WORKING ON INNOVATIONS FOR MILITARY STUFF, DRONES AND ROCKETS, AND DESIGN OF THESE THINGS.

I WANT TO HELP PEOPLE UNDERSTAND, THE COUNTER PROTESTERS, WHAT WERE THEY SAYING?

TORI: A LOT OF THEM SAID SHAME ON YOU.

A LOT OF THEM SAID THEY SUPPORT ISRAEL.

THEY ARE FOCUSED ON THE MESSAGE OF HOSTAGES WHO ARE BEING HELD BY HAMAS COME IN BRINGING THOSE -- THEY’RE FOCUSED ON THE MESSAGE OF THE HOSTAGES.

THEY HAVE BEEN EXPECTING SOMETIMES A FIGHT.

THERE WAS ONE COUNTER PROTESTER IN PARTICULAR WHO CAME IN AND HE WAS SAYING HE HAD A CONFLICT WITH THE CAMBRIDGE CHIEF OF POLICE.

HE WAS SAYING I DON’T NEED YOU TO ESCORT ME, WHY IS AN ESSAY FOR ME TO COME IN AS A JEWISH MAN WAVING THE AMERICAN FLAG?

THE CHIEF OF POLICE ESCORTS HIM IN AND HE WALKS AROUND AND GOES, SHAME ON YOU TO EVERYONE, AND WALKS BACK OUT.

THERE WERE A LOT OF PRO-PALESTINE PROTESTERS THERE.

I WAS TALKING TO THEM AND ASKED, DO YOU FEEL SAFE HERE?

WHAT WAS INTERESTING TO ME IS THAT ONE OF THEM TOLD ME THAT HE INITIALLY DIDN’T KNOW IF HE WOULD FEEL SAFE OR IF HE WOULD MAKE OTHERS FEEL SAFE.

HIS GIRLFRIEND WENT TO M.I.T.

ANYONE TO SEE WITH THAT EXPERIENCE WOULD FEEL I, AND HE FELT ENTIRELY SAFE.

ANOTHER PROTESTER TOLD ME HE FEELS LIKE A LOT OF JEWISH PEOPLE WHO ARE AGAINST ISRAEL, THEY FEEL LIKE A MINORITY IN THIS MOVEMENT.

THE COUNTER PROTESTERS WHO ARE PRO-ISRAEL WERE SAYING WE ARE HERE TO TELL JEWISH STUDENTS AT M.I.T.

YOU ARE NOT ALONE.

I’M SAYING THE SAME THING, I WANT JEWISH STUDENTS WHO ARE AGAINST ISRAEL’S MILITARY ACTIONS TO KNOW THAT THEY ARE NOT ALONE AND WE ARE ALSO REPRESENTED IN THIS MOVEMENT.

THERE WERE A NUMBER OF SUSPENSIONS ISSUED AT M.I.T.

YESTERDAY AND AS YOU MENTION, TODAY A NUMBER OF ARRESTS HAVE OCCURRED.

WE SAW THE FOOTAGE OF POLICE SCUFFLING, THERE WAS A LOT OF CHAOS OVER THERE TODAY.

AT HARVARD THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THOSE SUSPENSIONS COMING DOWN.

AS LONG AS THE PROTEST IS PEACEFUL, THEY REALLY DON’T HAVE AS MUCH GROUNDS TO BREAK IT UP UNLESS THE STUDENTS ARE SUSPENDED, IN WHICH CASE THEY ARE ON CAMPUS PROPERTY AND TRESPASSING, WHICH IS A MISDEMEANOR.

I WAS THINKING WE WOULD START TO SEE OR ARRESTS AFTER THE SUSPENSIONS HAD GONE THROUGH.

SARAYA: WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE STUDENTS RESOLVE GIVEN THAT THEY WERE OUT THERE A DAY AFTER THOSE SUSPENSIONS?

TORI: MONDAY AT 2:30 WAS THE DEADLINE TO THROUGHOUT THE ENCAMPMENT OR FACE SUSPENSION OR EXPULSION OR SOME KIND OF CONSEQUENCE.

THERE WERE FIVE WHO COMPLETELY STAYED THE WHOLE TIME, AND PEOPLE RUSHED BACK IN AND REBUILT THE ENCAMPMENT.

I SPOKE TO STUDENTS WHOSE -- WHO SAID THEY’RE CALLING ON THE UNIVERSITY TO DIVEST, TO REALLY ANALYZE WHERE THE ENDOWMENT IS GOING, WHERE THE STUDENTS TUITION IS GOING AND WHAT THEY ARE PUTTING THEIR MONEY TOWARD.

THAT IS WORTH MORE TO THEM THAN A DEGREE.

ONE UNDERGRAD TOLD ME SHE IS SUPPOSED TO BE GRADUATING IN A FEW WEEKS, THIS IS THE END OF HER TIME AT M.I.T., AND ANOTHER SEVENTH YEAR PHD STUDENT WHO IS SUPPOSED TO BE GRADUATING IN AUGUST, HE IS AN INTERNATIONAL STUDENT WHO COULD LOSE HIS VISA.

THIS MESSAGE IS SO IMPORTANT TO THEM, NOT JUST THE MESSAGE, BUT THIS PROTEST, THIS ACTION, CALLING ON THE UNIVERSITY TO DIVEST.

THEY ARE SAYING THIS IS WORTH MORE THAN GETTING A DEGREE.

WE ARE WILLING TO SACRIFICE THIS IF IT MEANS WE CAN HOLD THE UNIVERSITY TO ACCOUNT, BECAUSE WE HAVE DONE A NUMBER OF PROTEST ABOUT THIS SINCE OCTOBER 7 WE HAVEN’T REALLY FELT THAT HAVE BEEN FEELING THE HEAT OR PRESSURE FROM THIS.

BUT THIS IS THE ONE THING THAT IS MAKING UNIVERSITY UNCOMFORTABLE AND IT IS A WAY OF FORCING THEM TO ACT.

SO THIS IS WORKING, IN THEIR EYES.

SARAYA: I WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST THING IN LIGHT OF THAT POINT.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE A PRESIDENT BIDEN WARNING ABOUT WITHHOLDING CERTAIN WEAPONS IF THE ISRAELI MILITARY LAUNCHES AND OFFENSIVE IN THE STATE OF RAFAH?

ARE THEY MAKING SOME IMPACT ON THE INTERNATIONAL CONVERSATION?

TORI: I THINK SO.

HE IS DEFINITELY PAYING ATTENTION.

HE IS LOOKING AT ACROSS THE COUNTRY, THE WIDESPREAD MOVEMENT.

IF WE LOOK AT THIS HISTORICALLY, MOVEMENTS LIKE THIS HAVE MADE A DIFFERENCE.

I’VE SEEN VIDEOS OF PALESTINIAN CHILDREN IN GAZA THANKING THE STUDENTS AT THESE UNIVERSITIES.

SOMETIMES STUDENTS SAY WE NEED TO FOCUS ON GAZA, THIS IS WHAT IS IMPORTANT.

ULTIMATELY, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS CHANNELING BACK TOWARD WHERE ISRAEL WOULD BE WITHOUT U.S. SUPPORT, AND ISRAEL WOULD BE MUCH WEAKER WITHOUT THIS EXTREME SUPPORT FROM THE WEST AND FROM THE U.S. AND ALL THE WESTERN NATIONS THAT HAVE SUPPORTED ISRAEL AND PUMPED MILITARY HELP INTO ISRAEL AND GIVEN THEM WEAPONS AND FINANCIAL SUPPORT AND RECRUITMENT AND TRAINING, AND IT SHOWS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS REALLY PAYING ATTENTION.

IT SHOWS THAT THE PROTESTS ARE HAVING AN IMPACT.

SARAYA: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

AS PRO-PROTESTERS HAVE CAMPED OUT ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES ACROSS THE COUNTRY OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, ADMINISTRATORS HAVE STRUGGLED WITH HOW TO RESPOND.

HERE IN MASSACHUSETTS, WE’VE SEEN A WIDE RANGE OF APPROACHES WITH MASS ARRESTS AND ENCAMPMENTS AT EMERSON COLLEGE AND NORTHEASTERN UNIVERSITY, TWO ADMINISTRATORS MEETING WITH PROTESTERS TO DISCUSS THEIR DEMANDS FOR DEVELOPMENT FROM ISRAEL.

ONE CASE IN PARTICULAR HAS DRAWN A LOT OF CRITICISM, INCLUDING FROM MY NEXT GUEST, CAROL ROSE IS THE EXECUTIVE DIRECTOR OF THE ACLU OF MASSACHUSETTS.

SHE WROTE IN A STATEMENT, QUOTE, WHEN UNIVERSITIES INVOLVE POLICE IN NONVIOLENT DEMONSTRATIONS, IT ESCALATES TENSIONS AND CREATES UNACCEPTABLE SAFETY RISKS FOR ALL STUDENTS, FACULTY, AND COMMUNITY MEMBERS.

SHE JOINS ME NOW, ALONG WITH AMAHL BISHARA, PROFESSOR OF ANTHROPOLOGY AT TUFTS UNIVERSITY, AND ROBERT PAPE, DIRECTOR OF THE CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY AND THREATS.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR BEING WITH ME TODAY.

CAROL, YOU ISSUE THAT STATEMENT REGARDING THE RESPONSE OF OFFICIALS ACTING AT AMHERST.

WHY DID THAT RAISE ALARMS FOR YOU AND THE ACLU?

CAROL: WE ARE AT A MOMENT IN AMERICA WHERE WE HAVE TO TRY TO FIND THE BALANCE IN AMERICA BETWEEN HAVING A REASONABLE RESPONSE TO THESE CAMPUS PROTESTS AND MAKING SURE THAT WEEK KEEP THE PEACE AND KEEP THE ABILITY FOR FREE SPEECH THAT IS VITAL TO A DEMOCRACY.

GETTING THAT BALANCE RIGHT IS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT.

ONE OF THE CONCERNS WE HAD WAS THAT POLICE ARE ALSO PREVENTING JOURNALISTS FROM COVERING WHAT WAS GOING ON, AND LEGAL OBSERVERS FROM PROVIDING LEGAL PROTECTION AND COVER FOR PEOPLE.

THE ACLU IS TRYING TO GATHER MORE FACTS ON ALL OF THESE SITUATIONS, BUT MOST OF ALL, WE ARE TRYING TO ADVISE UNIVERSITY AND COLLEGE ADMINISTRATORS THAT CALLING ON THE POLICE MEANS TO BE A LAST -- NEEDS TO BE A LAST RESORT BECAUSE OF THE WISDOM OF CALLING THE POLICE.

IT OFTEN ESCALATES TENSIONS AND MAKES INKS LESS SAFE, RATHER THAN MORE SAFE.

SARAYA: I WANT TO GET INTO PRINCIPLES THAT UNIVERSITY SHOULD KEEP IN MIND FOR RESPONDING A LITTLE LATER.

STAYING WITH YOU NOW MCCARROLL, REGARDING M.I.T.

TODAY, WE KNOW THE SCHOOL HAS BEGUN ISSUING SUSPENSIONS FOR STUDENTS INVOLVED IN THE PROTEST.

IS THE ACLU MONITORING THAT SITUATION AND IS IT RAISING ALARMS FOR YOU THERE AS WELL?

CAROL: WE ARE TRYING TO GATHER MORE INFORMATION IN ALL THE DIFFERENT SCHOOLS.

THERE IS A LOT TO COVER.

WE’RE TRYING TO WATCH FOR OBVIOUSLY ANY EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE WHICH WOULD BE A CONCERN.

WE WANT TO MAKE SURE ANY RESTRICTIONS PUT ON THE STUDENTS ARE REASONABLE AND THEY ARE APPLIED, REGARDLESS OF VIEWPOINTS.

EVERYONE WHO IS INVOLVED NEEDS TO BE TREATED THE SAME.

SARAYA: THE SCHOOLS BOARD OF TRUSTEES HAS ISSUED A STATEMENT OF UNWAVERING SUPPORT FOR THE CHANCELLOR THERE.

OTHER GROUPS ARE CRITICAL OF THE CHANCELLOR, SAYING IT REPRESENTS A FAILURE OF LEADERSHIP.

ROBERT, THE ISSUE OBVIOUSLY SPLITS FACULTY AND ADMINISTRATORS IN SOME PLACES.

IS THERE SIMILAR SPLIT WHERE YOU ARE OUT?

ROBERT: I HAVE BEEN TO OUR ENCAMPMENT JUST BEFORE IT WAS TAKEN DOWN.

I SENSE IS EXTREMELY DIFFERENT FROM THE 1960’S.

IN THE 1960’S, IT WAS STUDENTS AND FACULTY VERSUS THE ADMINISTRATION.

THIS IS STUDENT VERSUS STUDENT, AND PEOPLE ARE REALLY DIVIDED.

THE REASON IS BECAUSE THE WHOLE ISSUE OF BEING PRO-PALESTINIAN OR PRO-ISRAEL IS EXTREMELY DIVIDED.

I JUST CONDUCTED A NATIONALLY REPRESENTATIVE SURVEY OF 5000 COLLEGE STUDENTS.

I WOULD ENCOURAGE THE ACLU TO COME TO OUR WEBSITE BECAUSE IT IS THE ONLY NATIONAL SURVEY NOW IN EXISTENCE.

HE MAY NOT EVEN REALLY KNOW ABOUT IT, BUT IT HAS BEEN QUITE WIDELY CIRCULATED AMONG UNIVERSITY LEADERS, CONGRESS, THE ADMINISTRATION, AND IT REALLY HELPS US TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE ARE PROTESTS AND FREE SPEECH ISSUES BUT THERE ARE ALSO CAMPUS FEAR ISSUES THAT GO BEYOND SPEECH.

56% OF JEWISH STUDENTS REPORT BEING IN FEAR OF PERSONAL DANGER.

52% OF MUSLIM STUDENTS REPORT FEELING IN PERSONAL DANGER.

60% OF STUDENTS NOT JEWISH AND NOT MUSLIM REPORT BEING IN PURE PERSONAL DANGER.

THE ISSUE OF CAMPUS FEAR IS IMPACTING QUITE A LARGE NUMBER, 3 MILLION COLLEGE STUDENTS, NOT JUST SMALL SEGMENTS, AS YOU MIGHT THINK.

THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS, THIS IS WHAT UNIVISION -- UNIVERSITY LEADERS ARE TRYING TO DEAL WITH, ACTUAL ACTS OF INTIMIDATION THAT OCCUR IN A FLASH, THAT OCCUR VERY, VERY QUICKLY.

THAT IS ENCOURAGING PEOPLE TO BE VERY AFRAID.

THAT’S REALLY JUST QUITE A DIFFICULT THING WHEN YOU HAVE PROTESTERS, COUNTER PROTESTERS, PEOPLE FROM OUTSIDE THE UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES, AND WE ARE SEEING POLARIZATION ON CAMPUS.

SARAYA: I WANT TO STICK WITH YOU AND ASK YOUR THOUGHTS ON THOSE REPORTS OF EXPRESSIONS OF FEAR OR DISCOMFORT.

HOW DO WE SQUARE THOSE WITH REPORTS OF LARGELY PEACEFUL PROTESTS?

ROBERT: COMPLETELY NORMAL.

IF YOU GO TO ANY ACTUAL WAR ZONE, YOU WILL FIND 90% OF THE COUNTRY IS COMPLETELY PEACEFUL.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN EVERYTHING IS PEACEFUL.

GEORGE FLOYD RIOTS, IT IS COMPLETELY COMMON IN THESE HYPERTENSIVE SITUATIONS TO HAVE A MIXTURE.

THAT’S WHY COOKIE-CUTTER SOLUTIONS LIKE, SEND IN THE NATIONAL GUARD, THEY REALLY JUST DON’T WORK.

THAT WOULDN’T WORK IN SOLVING CIVIL WARS AROUND THE WORLD, AND IT WOULDN’T REALLY WORK HERE ACROSS THE 75 CAMPUSES THAT HAVE VARYING DEGREES OF BEING IMPACTED IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS.

I WOULD NOT WANT TO MONDAY MORNING QUARTERBACK THESE LEADERS.

I THINK THEY ARE DOING THEIR BEST TO JUGGLE BOTH THE ISSUES OF GIVING MAXIMUM FREEDOM OF EXPRESSION, BUT TAKING SERIOUSLY STUDENT FEARS, BECAUSE THESE ARE NOW DOCUMENTED.

WE HAVE NATIONALLY REPRESENTED SURVEYS, NOT ANECDOTAL, THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS REPORTING DETAILS OF CARS TRYING TO RUN THEM OVER, HEADSCARVES BEING PULLED OFF, NECKLACES OF THE JEWISH STAR BEING RIPPED OFF, PEOPLE CHASING THEM IN THEIR DORM ROOMS.

THESE ARE NOT MINOR ISSUES.

IT REALLY IS THE CASE THAT UNIVERSITY LEADERS NEED TO TAKE SERIOUSLY THE MAXIMIZING OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH BUT ALSO PERSONAL SAFETY ON CAMPUSES IS A REAL ISSUE.

SARAYA: I WANT TO COME BACK TO THIS ISSUE, BUT WHAT HAS IT BEEN LIKE SEEING AND HEARING FACULTY AT ODDS WITH ADMINISTRATORS AND POWER PLAYERS AT TUFTS?

YOU BEEN PART OF THE -- THOSE TRYING TO RESPOND.

AMAHL: AT THE HEART OF THE UNIVERSITY, AS FACULTY MEMBERS, WE ARE OFTEN IN CONVERSATION AND PLAYING THAT ROLE, BRIDGING BETWEEN STUDENTS IN HIGHER-LEVEL ADMINISTRATION, FACULTY MEMBERS ARE IN THE CLASSROOM EVERY DAY.

WE HAVE CONTACT EVERY DAY WITH OUR STUDENTS AND WE ENJOY AND LEARN FROM OUR STUDENTS EVERYDAY.

SO IT IS VERY NATURAL THAT WE SHOULD BE IN COMMUNICATION WITH ADMINISTRATORS TO BRING THAT CLOSE TO THE GROUND EXPERIENCE INTO THOSE CONVERSATIONS.

SARAYA: WE’VE HEARD FROM A NUMBER OF PROFESSORS INCLUDING ONE FOR AN M.I.T.

WHO SAYS SHE IS HORRIFIED WITH HOW THE SCHOOL IS SUSPENDING STUDENTS.

TAKE A LISTEN TO THIS.

>> THIS -- THE STUDENTS CANNOT GRADUATE IF THEY ARE SENIORS.

THEIR VISAS AND FINANCIAL AID WILL BE REVOKED.

THIS IS WITHOUT DUE PROCESS.

THEY HAVE NOT GONE THROUGH DUE PROCESS BECAUSE THAT TAKES A LONG TIME.

THEY HAVE TO PROVIDE EVIDENCE AND SUCH LIKE THAT.

THE THOUGHT THAT THEY ARE GOING TO SPEND THEM AND HAVE THESE SERIOUS LIFE-CHANGING CONSEQUENCES WITHOUT DUE PROCESS IS IS HORRIFYING FOR ME.

SARAYA: IS IT JARRING TO THINK THAT STUDENTS AND IN SOME CASES FACULTY ART RISK OF ARREST OR LOSING THEIR JOBS IF THEY PARTICIPATE IN THIS ARGUABLY POLITICAL SPEECH?

AMAHL: OF COURSE IT’S ALARMING.

WE WANT TO CULTIVATE THAT ATMOSPHERE FOR FREE EXPRESSION OF PROTESTS.

ONE OF THE ISSUES OF JUSTICE THAT TRULY SHAPES OUR GENERATION AND THEIR GENERATION, THE STUDENTS ARE ACTING ON PRINCIPLE, ON AN URGENT, GLOBAL ISSUE OF CONCERN THAT THE UNITED STATES IS AT THE CENTER OF.

THE STUDENTS ARE MAKING THEMSELVES VULNERABLE IN A MULTITUDE OF WAYS.

PUTTING THEIR DEGREES ON THE LINE, SOMETIMES THEIR HOUSING, JOBS, AND SAFETY ON THE LINE.

I HAVE TREMENDOUS RESPECT FOR THEIR PERSEVERANCE AND BRAVERY.

SARAYA: I WANT TO BRING THIS CLIP FROM DAVID FRENCH WHO WAS ON THE PBS NEWSHOUR.

HE SAID STUDENT SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO PROTEST, BUT NOT TO THE EXTENT THAT THEIR ACTIVITY INFRINGES ON OTHER NON-PROTESTING STUDENTS RIGHTS TO BE COMFORTABLE AND LEARN AND WALK AROUND THEIR SHARED CAMPUS.

>> THE BOTTOM LINE IS THAT THESE UNIVERSITIES HAVE A LEGAL OBLIGATION TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF ALL OF THE STUDENTS, AND ALSO TO PROTECT THE JEWISH STUDENTS ON CAMPUS FROM ANTI-SEMITIC HARASSMENT.

WHEN THESE ENCAMPMENTS VIOLATE THE RIGHTS OF OTHERS AND REFUSED TO LEAVE, SOMETIMES THERE IS NO OPTION BUT TO BRING IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THAT DOESN’T MEAN THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT CAN DO WHATEVER IT WANTS.

IT SHOULD BE DISCIPLINED AND RESTRAINED IN ITS USE OF FORCE.

BUT WHEN A GROUP OF STUDENTS HAS VIOLATED THE RIGHTS OF OTHER STUDENTS, THERE ARE LEGAL OBLIGATIONS ATTACHED TO THE UNIVERSITY TO DEFEND THE RIGHTS OF STUDENTS.

SO IN MANY WAYS HER HANDS ARE TIED BECAUSE THEY CANNOT CONTINUE TO CONSENT TO THE VIOLATION OF OTHER STUDENTS RIGHTS.

SARAYA: HE GOES ON TO ARGUE THAT UNIVERSITIES ARE SORT OF NEGLECTING THE REASONABLE TIME, PLACE, AND MANNER RESTRICTIONS THAT GUIDE CIVIL RIGHTS.

WHAT ABOUT THE IDEA THAT THEY’RE BECOMING HOSTILE PLACES FOR STUDENTS?

CAROL: I WOULD SAY COUPLE OF THINGS.

COLLEGES AND UNIVERSITIES HAVE A TOUGH JOB, UNDER ANTIHARASSMENT LAWS, BUT THAT IS DIFFERENT, BEING UNCOMFORTABLE WITH AN IDEA IS VERY DIFFERENT THAN HAVING YOUR HEADSCARF RIPPED OFF OR YOUR NECKLACE RIPPED OFF.

THAT IS ASSAULT AND BATTERY, AND THAT IS A CRIME.

SO FAR, THE ONLY REAL PLACE WE’VE HEARD ABOUT A LOT OF VIOLENCE WAS AT UCLA, WHERE COUNTER PROTESTERS WERE ALLOWED TO ATTACK AN ENCAMPMENT, AND THE POLICE STOOD BY.

THERE ARE EXCEPTIONS, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, THESE HAVE MOSTLY BEEN PEACEFUL.

THE PARTICULAR PLACES FOR THESE HAVE BEEN PEACEFUL HAS BEEN ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES WHERE ADMINISTRATORS HAVE ACTUALLY REACHED OUT.

NOT GIVEN INTO DEMANDS, BUT AGREED TO OPEN UP A DIALOGUE, A CONVERSATION.

PLACES LIKE NORTHWESTERN, UNIVERSITY OF MINNESOTA, RUTGERS.

A LOT OF PLACES WHERE THE ADMINISTRATORS HAVE AGREED TO AT LEAST LISTEN AND NOT JUST SAY WE ARE HERE TO GIVE YOU ONE HOUR NOTICE.

THAT IS NOT NEGOTIATION.

WE MUST TEACH STUDENTS THAT THEY NEED TO ENTER INTO NEGOTIATIONS AND CONVERSATIONS, NOT JUST WITH PEOPLE THEY AGREE WITH, BUT WITH PEOPLE THEY DISAGREE WITH.

THAT IS WHY THE FIRST AMENDMENT IS SO IMPORTANT.

NOBODY IS SUGGESTING THERE IS A RIGHT TO HARASS PEOPLE OR VIOLATE THEIR RIGHTS.

BUT THERE ISN’T A RIGHT JUST TO BE COMFORTABLE ALL THE TIME.

SARAYA: TO THAT POINT, WHAT IS THE LINE FOR YOU THAT WHEN CROSSED WOULD APPROPRIATELY OR RIGHTFULLY TRIGGER A POLICE RESPONSE WITH THESE ENCAMPMENTS?

CAROL: OBVIOUSLY IF SOMEBODY IS BEING ATTACKED, IF THERE HEADSCARF IS RIPPED OFF, IF THEY ARE THREATENED, THERE IS INCITEMENT OR HARASSMENT.

THERE ARE LOTS OF LEGAL PROTECTIONS.

FREE-SPEECH DOES NOT MEAN A FREE FOR ALL.

THERE ARE LOTS OF INSTANCES WHERE THE POLICE CAN AND SHOULD GET INVOLVED.

CERTAINLY ASSAULT AND BATTERY IS AN OBVIOUS ONE.

EXCEPT IN PLACES WHERE THE POLICE HAVE BEEN CALLED IN, AND I THINK THE PROBLEM IS YOU CALL THE POLICE IN, ESPECIALLY WHEN YOU DO IT TO QUICKLY, IT TENDS TO ESCALATE THE VIOLENCE AND IT BECOMES A SELF-FULFILLING PROPHECY.

WHICH IS WHY WE ARE HOPING ADMINISTRATORS WILL AT LEAST HAVE A DIALOGUE AND LISTEN, BECAUSE THAT IS REALLY WHAT WE DO A DEMOCRACY, NOT JUST SHUT IT DOWN.

THAT JUST DRIVES IT UNDERGROUND WHERE IT BUBBLES UP OFTEN MORE INTO VIOLENCE.

SARAYA: I WILL GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD, WHAT PRINCIPLE SHOULD SCHOOLS LEAN ON TO ENSURE THAT CAMPUSES ARE SAFE AND COMFORTABLE PLACES OF LEARNING FOR EVERYONE, BUT ALSO A PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN EXPRESS THEIR OPINIONS ON THIS ISSUE?

AMAHL BISHARA I VERY MUCH AGREE ABOUT THE INTRODUCTION OF POLICE INTO THE ATMOSPHERE.

A 65-YEAR-OLD PROFESSOR HAD MULTIPLE RIBS BROKEN AS POLICE WERE CALLED ONTO CAMPUS, AND THAT’S VERY DANGEROUS.

I WANT TO RESPOND TO SOMETHING FROM THE DAVID FRENCH INTERVIEW.

SO MANY LEADING PARTICIPANTS HAVE JEWISH STUDENTS OR PROFESSORS.

I WILL NEVER FORGET THE PROTESTS AT THE U.S. CONGRESS,’S -- OF LIBERTY, GRAND CENTRAL STATION.

MAKING ASSUMPTIONS ABOUT WHO IS MADE UNCOMFORTABLE AND WHY, ADMINISTRATORS NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHO THE STUDENTS ARE WHO ARE PARTICIPATING IN THIS, UNDERSTAND THEY’RE COMING TO THIS WITH A GREAT DEAL OF CONVICTION ABOUT WHAT THEY NEED TO DO TO KEEP EACH OTHER SAFE, AND TO STOP THIS WAR.

SARAYA: ROBERT, CLOSE US OUT IN 10 SECONDS.

ROBERT: UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO IS FAMOUS WITH THE PRINCIPLES, IT GOES WAY BEYOND DISCOMFORT.

WHAT YOU SEE IS EVIDENCE THAT STUDENTS FEEL TERRIFIED TO SPEAK UP, EITHER BEING PRO-ISRAEL OR PRO-PALESTINE, FOR FEAR OF BEING ACADEMICALLY PUNISHED ON CAMPUS AND FOR FEAR OF BEING PUNISHED IN VERY SEVERE WAYS.

THEY REPORT THIS HUNDREDS OF TIMES, NOT ONCE OR TWICE.

I JUST ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO GO TO THE UNIVERSITY OF CHICAGO PROJECT ON SECURITY THREATS.

IT IS455 PAGES LONG, SO THERE IS A LOT THERE, BUT ALL THE EVIDENCE IS THERE.

SARAYA: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT’S IT FOR TONIGHT.

THANKS FOR WATCHING.

I AM SARAYA WINTERSMITH.

GOOD NIGHT.

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