- Cleveland has shown its hand a $461 million stadium subsidy as it seeks to keep the Browns downtown.

Governor DeWine said he wants to end gerrymandering, but claims the anti gerrymandering amendment won't work.

And Akron City Council has rejected a charter amendment to expand the hiring pool for police and fire brass ideas is next.

Hello and welcome to Ideas.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thank you for joining us.

Cleveland made its bid to keep the Browns downtown public this week saying it'll pay $461 million toward a billion dollar renovation on the lakefront.

Is that enough to keep the Browns downtown?

Can the city afford to pay for stadiums?

Governor Mike DeWine opposes the constitutional amendment aiming to end gerrymandering saying it'll make gerrymandering worse.

He promised that if voters turn it down, he'll work with the legislature to create a better district.

Mapmaking process looks like Akron voters won't decide in November on an amendment that would broaden the pool for hiring new police and fire brass and more school districts say no to student cell phone use.

Joining me to discuss these stories and more from my idea stream, public media reporters CABER BIA and Abby Marshall in Columbus State House News Bureau Chief Karen Kasler.

Let's get ready to round table.

Cleveland Mayor Justin Bibb laid out details of the city's proposal to keep the Browns downtown $461 million for lakefront stadium renovations.

They want at least a 30 year commitment from the team.

Team owners Jimmy and D Haslam are weighing a billion dollar renovation on the lakefront with another plan, a move to Brook Park and a new $2 billion dome facility financing for which is undetermined.

The Brown's lease is set to expire in 2028.

The city wants a fast answer from the team on its current proposal.

Abby, where is the $461 million coming from?

- Yeah, so I think it's important to start by saying that the city says that no city services or the general fund, which is the budget that operates for the city, will be affected by this incentive package.

And that is a promise that Mayor Justin Bibb had made during his state of the city's speech last year that the general fund would be untouched.

So the majority of that, about 360 million of it will come from tax revenues.

We're looking at admission tax increases, the syntax from the county, which is on alcohol, cigarettes, things like that.

Another major revenue source for the Browns will be the city will actually hand over the exclusive use of the Willard Garage at City Hall and the municipal lot on game and event days.

And they say over the 30 year lease that the Browns will have the stadium that is expected to generate over $90 million.

They will also waive a, the rent that the Browns pay, but the Browns will be responsible for insurance and things of that nature to make it kind of consistent across the agreements that the city has with the guardians calves, and now the Browns, all the sports franchises.

- While the city says that it doesn't affect the general fund, it does direct new money to spending that could have been used for other needs.

So while absolutely it's true in one sense, yes, this is, you look at the general fund as it is, we're not taking money out of it, but if you're raising taxes and putting it somewhere, you could have put 'em some somewhere else.

Yeah, another need.

Yeah.

- And that has been a criticism from some council members in the past and and residents that have come to city Hall to meetings, public meetings, to talk about how they don't want more public money going towards the browns of the owners are billionaires and the city is the second poorest city in the country.

And there are a plethora of issues that some residents and council members feel should be addressed using tax revenue, as you mentioned, other than giving it to a sports franchise.

But obviously this is something that Mayor Justin Bibb and his administration see as a very important part to keeping a healthy economy downtown, especially as we are talking about his lakefront plan as it's taking shape.

And so it just is that push and pull, I guess, of what Cleveland currently is, what Cleveland can be, that sort of - Thing.

And the lakefront plan is also being used in a, as an incentive to the Browns.

They're saying to them, listen, we're going to develop the land north of it, the land all around it.

Yeah, we are gonna be building the land bridge.

We are gonna be making a boulevard out of the shoreway.

All of these things that'll make your home better.

And also while we are the ones that are gonna be leading the development of those areas, if you'd like to be a part of that, just let us know and we'll negotiate.

- Yeah.

So this lakefront plan is huge in sweeping this.

Earlier this year, city council approved a tax increment finance district, which is a economic development plan that will generate money towards the lakefront, building it up.

You'll have that pedestrian bridge from downtown Cleveland connecting it to the shore where this Browns play, where the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is.

It'll make it a lot easier and cohesive downtown.

And so the idea is, you know, if they move to Brook Park, they might have more space, they'll have more room for parking that they can collect the revenue on.

But downtown could be something that is appealing in a few years for the Browns as well as the city.

Obviously no one wants to be the administration that loses the browns again, even if it's to no fault of their own.

But you know, even in my short time working in Cleveland, the way that people talk about art, mad moving the Browns away, it it's just with such disdain and, and sadness.

So no one wants to see that happen from the city of Cleveland.

- Why aren't we hearing from the mayor now his number?

Why are we seeing this move to the public and is it a flex move to give a deadline and say, I better hear back from you by August 12th?

- Yeah, so for months, us little gaggle of local reporters have been trying to, you know, figure out what's going on with these negotiations and, and they've been pretty tight-lipped, obviously they, as they've figured it out.

And the mayor has been pretty steadfast in saying that he would like to keep the Browns here, but hasn't said how until now.

The Haslams have been vocal about wanting taxpayer dollars and, and money to foot the bill for what they say is a 100 or $1 billion renovation of the existing stadium or, or some of the money toward their new stadium.

And I think that, you know, they were just solidifying these details and now going public with it, it probably is a show to Clevelanders of, Hey, I'm not messing around like I really do want the Browns here and I'm trying my best to keep them here.

And also it kind of maybe ramps up some pressure on, on the Browns as well as Brook Park who doesn't want a bidding war in your - Favor.

Yeah.

They've got, I don't know how Brook Park, they passed a resolution in May saying the council did saying, we want you to come here.

But it's not like Brook Park can come up with a half a billion or a billion or any really large amount of money.

The other thing that Brown said, and I want to ask you about this, Karen, is, is that first of all, they don't believe there should be any public financing anywhere but downtown Cleveland.

And they noted that the financing they're talking about, which is the city financing, the 461 million doesn't include what might come from the county additionally and from the state.

What are the chances the state's gonna pony up money for this?

- Well, when I talked to Senator Matt Dolan, who's the chair of the Senate Finance Committee and also part owning Owner of the Guardians about this couple weeks ago for our TV show, the State of Ohio, he mentioned that the idea of the state kicking in money really is more about the state helping with bonding and, and basically putting the state's full faith and credit behind bonds that would be used in this way.

And so it, it's not exactly the same as the state just writes a check.

It's a little bit different, but I think a lot of this has to do with whether there's gonna be a dome stadium or not and, and the movement and, and everything.

And, and I think the real concern of Cleveland is if you take Brown Stadium out of there, what does that do to downtown?

Does that just really irreversibly change how downtown is and and does it take too many businesses out of downtown?

The economic development that is around stadiums out of downtown?

I think that's a, that's a big question.

- I I put this on my own Facebook page.

I'm gonna share some of the thoughts from there as well as some emails that we're getting into the soi@ideastream.org email account.

But to that point, Jim, on my Facebook page said, let 'em go to Brook Park and free up the lakefront land close Burke and the city will be transformed.

Yeah, - Burke River or airport down on the lakefront takes up a huge amount of real estate.

And, and same with the, the stadium.

And I actually did a story earlier this year of what the Browns might or not the Browns the city might do with their city owned stadium and, and kind of looked to other cities of what they've done, transforming it to housing, things of that nature.

So it would be interesting to see how the city would get creative if they left, but that is a sentiment that is certainly shared by some residents, - Whether the team stays downtown or not, there's still gonna be that discussion about whether Burke lakefront airport, an airport is the best use of that land.

And I know the mayor has, has said that he's under, he's begun a study of that.

He's looking at it.

So we'll see where that goes.

Couple of thoughts from our listeners.

Chris and Shaker Heights says, take the stadium out of downtown.

It's an eyesore and a waste of beautiful lakefront property.

The team is a huge disappointment year after year, well, not in last year, with an owner that routinely makes horrible business decisions, expecting the city to bail him out so he doesn't like him, called him a carpet bagger, him being Jimmy Haslam.

And a lot of folks do note that, you know, he's not a, not a a native clevelander.

And by the way, neither are most owners of teams.

I also have one more thought from Sean.

He says, can you and the panel talk about the historical success when cities invest so substantially in a local sports stadium?

Does it actually drive economic development or create a financial net benefit for the city?

I'm suspicious that it doesn't.

And that's Sean from Cleveland.

Karen, we've had discussions with stadium experts, many of whom say that the financial proposal doesn't really pan out, that you do get the prestige of being a major league city.

You do get certain sales and businesses that benefit from that.

But all in all, if you were just investing as a city, you might not make that your top investment.

What, what have you seen in, in your reporting about whether putting money into stadiums brings back money?

- Well, certainly you have states and cities that believe that there is a lot at stake in terms of economic development in those stadiums.

And right now you've got, in Chicago, there's a proposed $4.7 billion dome stadium.

So that's, that's huge.

And also a stadium funding plan that is trying to lure either the chiefs or the royals over to the Kansas City side.

And so obviously with all that money that's being talked about there, there is the thought that this kind of investment will pay off in the long run.

And that's one of the things Dolan said to me in talking about this proposal in terms of getting state money involved, is the state has to weigh whether there is a return on investment because there's $600 million potentially that the state would be on the hook to pay back if this doesn't work.

And so, you know, it, it's, I I I think that when you look at downtown stadiums in different areas, you see there's a lot of activity during games, a lot of activity during concerts.

But the question is, is that enough?

Is that enough to justify what is spent to make all that stuff happen?

- Governor Mike DeWine this week said he agrees that Ohio needs to change how it draws legislative district maps, but he trashed the proposal.

Voters will decide on in November saying it'll make gerrymandering worse.

DeWine said, if it fails, which he hopes it does, he promises to work with lawmakers to reform the system.

Beginning in January, the November issue was spurred by a group called Citizens, not politicians.

It would scrap the existing Ohio redistricting Commission made up of elected officials for a 15 member panel that would be split evenly between Democrats, Republicans and independents.

No politicians or lobbyists could be on the panel.

Karen the governor, opposes the November ballot issue.

He's asking voters to reject it.

He's saying, listen, we'll come up with a better plan if you do.

And that sounds to me a lot like something that happened last year when voters were voting on the abortion amendment, the reproductive rights amendment.

And he said, listen, we'll, we'll we'll make a better thing if you if you vote.

No, they didn't take 'em up on that offer.

- Right.

Yeah.

As, as the fall reproductive rights issue came forward last year, DeWine came out and said, Hey, I understand people are upset that there are no exceptions in the six week abortion ban.

If you don't pass issue one last fall, then we'll lawmakers will work on this.

And it appeared that people did not believe that.

At least voters did not believe that.

And now we're in a similar situation.

We've got the citizens not politicians plan, which is not new.

It's been out there for months and months as the group was gathering signatures.

And of course Republican former Chief Justice, Maureen O'Connor, who helped write it has been talking about it extensively.

It's really complicated, but there's a real feeling that people are frustrated with how the process went forward.

And so the question is, how do you wanna change that?

Voters will see an amendment on this false ballot like you just said, but then if the lawmakers wanna come back and change that next year, they would have to bring that to voters as well.

So we could have two back to back years where we would be talking about redistricting and how to best draw those lines.

And the real question of course, is whether voters trust the people who are drawing the lines now, who are all elected officials, or whether they want to trust an independent commission and how those people would be selected to draw the lines.

- The governor said that politics should not be a part of it.

And then he noted that he likes the Iowa plan, which by the way, the supporters of the current amendment say the best parts of the Iowa plan are already in the amendment.

But beyond that, the governor said, let's do the Iowa plan.

And really what that ends up being is something that has to be voted on by the legislature.

So in the end, isn't it still political?

- Well, yeah, except for the maps in Iowa are drawn by a nonpartisan agency that does work for state lawmakers and then they send it to the legislature.

The legislature can reject it.

I think they can reject it three times.

And if they reject it three times, then it goes to the state Supreme Court for those maps to be drawn.

And there's a timeline issue on all this as well, where it has to be in place by, I think it's September 15th, so that voters have a little bit of a chance to learn about their candidates and, and who is actually gonna be running.

But the big thing here in Iowa is that the map drawers can take into account partisan data.

They can't draw lines to protect existing lawmakers districts.

They can't try to make sure that certain lawmakers stay in office.

They can't look at breakdowns of Republicans and Democrats and try to come up with Republican districts and democratic districts.

That's the key to the Iowa plan that DeWine says he wants to see as part of the Ohio plan that he says if Ohio voters reject this proposal in November that he and state lawmakers next year will start working on - Karen, why didn't he call lawmakers back into session to get an alternate ballot proposal that would reflect the Iowa plan?

- Well, it would've been historic if he did, because that would've been two special sessions in the span of a couple of months, because you'll recall state lawmakers were brought into special session to pass the proposal to make sure that then President Joe Biden was gonna be on the ballot.

And also that, or I guess it's now the Democratic nominee, and then also to ban foreign contributions to ballot issue campaigns.

It took a little while for lawmakers to get those passed.

And I think that there really is not necessarily an appetite to move this forward at this moment.

And you've gotta bring all these folks back.

You've gotta bring 132 people back to the State House.

Many of them aren't available because this would have to go through the legislature three fifths majority by August 7th for this to actually make the ballot.

And then you'd have two competing issues.

You'd have to convince voters to vote for one and not the other.

And it could be very, very difficult to make all that happen.

- An effort to expand the hiring pool for the top spots in the Akron Police and Fire Departments was shot down by City Council this week, seven to four.

It would have opened hiring to external candidates.

The city recently hired police Chief Brian Harding from within the ranks.

Mallek said that existing state law prohibits outside hires and with no charter amendment, he must abide by that caber.

Some council members who voted against moving ahead with the amendment said they were objecting because they thought the process was just moving too fast.

- Yeah.

They said Margot Somerville and Jeff Vasco, both of 'em with Deep Akron roots and especially on Akron Council Akron politics.

Both of 'em said they're, you know, in favor of the idea, but they just wanna make sure they take their time, get it right.

Like the song says, I guess.

And Jeff Fusco said, kind of slow rolling it in his words, he wants to get something that everybody can agree on and get a good path forward.

- What's interesting is, originally they were looking outside, Akron has hired people from the outside in the past.

This was just something this particular mayor looked at and said, wait a minute, we're in violation if we don't have - An amendment.

It's like, you know, you find out that there's a law from 200 years ago that you cannot have squirrels on a leash on a certain street.

Something like that.

They suddenly realized, oh wait a minute, we're not supposed to be able to do this.

But they've done it many times in the past.

I mean the, the last several, but the current currently now they realized, oh, we have to do this internally.

- So is this over then?

Or does the mayor have a plan to slow down and give it to them again?

Yeah, I - Mean he was, you know, he was, he was a politician about it.

He said, we've had some good conversations, let's keep having them.

The people who are for this, you know, pointed out that there are very few people of color in the upper ranks of the police department.

So it's gonna take a while if they have to stay internal.

So, so the people who want to expand this thing say that it definitely needs to be done, but they're not coming back from recess until right after Labor Day.

And the deadline to get this on the ballot is right before that.

So pretty much is a day.

So wouldn't be day this year?

No, not this year.

Alright.

- Cuyahoga County homeowners angered by the steep increases in their property.

Values are showing up in big numbers at county sponsored community meetings to protest the new property appraisals.

The reappraisals were required under state law, they're required every six years.

And on average property values in Cuyahoga County went up by more than 30%.

That'll mean higher property tax bills for many homeowners, but many of them are not necessarily equating the fact that their taxes don't go up by 30%.

There's a bunch of formula.

We talked about it with Connor Morris, in fact, he's got something coming out on Monday that's gonna help explain a little bit more how these property taxes work.

But still, people, Abby, are very upset that taxes are going up at all.

And they do do seem to be equating it.

They're saying, Hey, my house doubled in value.

I can't pay double the taxes.

- Yeah.

And that, yeah, if you're on a fixed income, like you're a salaried job or, or you're an elderly person who is working with a retirement budget, an increase like this can be challenging.

And, and you know, as the rental market is the same way, you might be on a salary job and your rent might go up each year, but when you typically buy a home, you are expecting to pay kind of a fixed amount each month.

And you hope, I guess the property taxes go up a little bit.

'cause that means that your property value is going up.

But jumps like this have been really a, a shock for some people.

And I live in Ohio City, Mike, let me tell you.

Woo.

Yeah.

Some of these, some of these areas are really seeing some, some major jumps.

And that can be a really big challenge.

Some people were saying at these meetings, they've had to take on extra or they're going to have to take on extra jobs.

Some people are looking at refinancing specifically to accommodate these taxes, that sort of thing.

- We've had experts on the show here, and I'm sure that they've all talked about this at these meetings.

There are ways to challenge this.

There's an informal process that goes through August where you can get a appraisal, get a contractor to say, yeah, this basement is leaky and here's how much it would cost to fix it.

And they'll consider that.

And then there's a, a more formal process afterward where you can go to the board of revision and say, we think the property value should be lower.

So there are avenues people can take, but when they were being told that at these meetings, they're saying, this is a lot of time that it would take us, it takes a lot of money in order to get people out there and give, give us these estimates and appraisals.

They weren't happy with that avenue.

- Yeah.

I mean, yeah.

The, the things that you can do to file this informal complaint, like you said, it is an appraisal report, a complete appraisal report from the last 36 months.

Well, you have to pay money for an appraisal certified estimates from contractors to fix things.

You gotta get a contractor to come out there.

Right.

And these are all things that do cost money and time.

I actually am working on a story right now where I'm checking in with some people that some mortgage companies about the refinancing issue, some appraisal people because they're, you know, they're probably booked and busy right now trying to, to help all these people.

But, and these are things where in the long run, it could save you, you know, two, $300 a year, but in the immediate, you might be out $250 or more to get someone to come out and appraise your house.

- I heard that some residents are considering filing a lawsuit.

I wondered how that would work.

- I, yeah, I, I'm not a hundred percent sure about that because when I went to the initial press conference, Cuyahoga County basically said, you know, we know people, this is stressful for people, but this is something we are legally bound to do by state law.

So if there is an issue that is up to the state to fix, and that is basically they put the onus on the state.

It was, it was pretty pointed in that way.

So some of these folks were also talking about going to Columbus to advocate.

Right.

So I'm not really sure what that would look like, but that is an avenue that people have talked - About.

Karen, you might soon get some companies in Columbus.

Sure.

So property taxes, what to do about them.

That's been on the mind of lawmakers.

We've talked about it on this show a little bit.

Little has been passed, few items have been introduced.

But where are we at?

Are there, are there people trying to, to do something to reign in property taxes?

- Well, we are on summer breakdown here in Columbus.

So state lawmakers are, anyway, we're not, but, so it's, it's unlikely that anything will pass before the lame duck session, which will be after the election.

And there was a joint committee on property taxation review and reform.

It was a bipartisan committee that was formed to look into not only property taxes, but also some of the other things, affordable housing, some of the other things that can play a role in this.

And one of the co-chairs of that, I just reached out to him to ask him when those recommendations are expected to come out from that committee, they were expected in July or August.

And so far haven't heard when those recommendations might come out because like you said, there are a lot of proposals that are out there.

And if you just make one tweak in property tax law that affects other areas of property tax law, you could lower taxes for one group and that could end up hiking them for another group, or that that tax break will expire and then those taxes will go way up.

So you have to think about all that kind of stuff.

- Some of Ohio's largest school districts will begin banning cell phones in classrooms starting this school year, including Cleveland and Youngstown.

Akron was way ahead of the curve and bans them already.

Abbey Cleveland, Youngstown are following the lead of Akron.

They're using these things called yonder bags.

- Yeah, I looked these up before the show and it's actually pretty interesting.

So you slip your phone into this pouch, it, it's a magnetic lock so the students actually get to keep the phones on them all day.

It is their responsibility, which was kind of a relief because that's just another thing for teachers to worry about and track, I guess if it was up to them.

And then at the end of the day, you can go to a docking station and tap the pouch on there and kind of unlock it.

Right.

So that, it was, it was pretty interesting.

I've never seen anything like that.

And the, the news release from these schools are saying that 65% of schools using yonder have seen improved academic performance.

74% have observed better student behavior, and 83% have noted increased classroom engagement.

It's kind of, I don't know how you quantify improved academic performance and that sort of thing, but I guess take a distraction out of a classroom.

Kids have nothing better to do than listen to the teacher.

- Yeah.

I had a, I had a friend who said that her niece was griping and complaining that she wasn't gonna be able to have her phone this year.

Sure.

And she said, okay, well maybe you'll just have to pay attention in Spanish class then.

- But I will, I will advocate a little bit for young people.

A big part of school is socialization and phones, and social media is a big part of that.

You know, like exchanging phone numbers with the boy you like in math class or whatever.

I did that, you know, you did that.

Yeah.

So, you know, I, I can see why students would be upset, but on the flip side, I grew up in a family of teachers.

I, I'm sure it is very frustrating.

And having this added element now of people just constantly being on their phones.

I'm sure it's, it's a - Challenge.

And the under bags are cool, by the way.

I, I first encountered them at the Chris Rock concert.

Yeah.

And Dave Chappelle, by the way, showed up and, and you, you had to give 'em your phone and they, they put it in a little bag and you kept it with you.

Wow.

But you couldn't use it.

Wow.

That is so interesting.

Until, until you had to leave.

So pretty cool.

Maybe - We should get that for work.

Just kidding.

No, - Can't live without our - Phones here.

No, - Absolutely not.

Karen.

The new law signed by the governor gives districts discretion to shape their policies.

There's not one size fits all.

They can all do it differently.

Yonder pouches or don't bring them to school or, go ahead.

Everyone can have a cell phone.

That's our policy.

So it, we're gonna be hearing, but it seems they've got time to implement this, but already for this school year, even though it's not required, we're seeing these big districts line up like they're waiting for this.

- Yeah.

And I think that there's been a move, especially by teachers to try to push this forward because those numbers, I mean, I'm, I'm not exactly sure how they get them, but certainly teachers will tell you that kids who are on their phones are not apparently paying attention.

And so it makes it harder for teachers to communicate the information that they have.

And so districts have to come up with some sort of a policy.

They don't have to do the same thing.

The Department of Workforce and Development, which used to be the State Department of Education, has a model policy that they can find, find, and, and follow if they want to.

But districts do have to come up with something so that there is an understanding of what is expected of kids when it comes to cell phones in school.

- Monday, on the Sound of Ideas on 89 7 WKSU, we'll bring you a great conversation about the Akron Innerbelt from our community tour Last week at the night stage of the Akron Civic Theater, the construction of the highway devastated a thriving black community.

Now that the highway is abandoned, the city is looking for ideas to redevelop the land with an eye toward inclusion and healing.

I'm Mike McIntyre.

Thank you so much for watching.

And stay safe.