- (female announcer) Production funding for Behind the headlines is made possible in part by the WKNO Production Fund, the WKNO Endowment Fund, and by viewers like you, thank you.

- Former Mayor Willie Herenton, tonight, on Behind the Headlines.

[intense orchestral music] I am Eric Barnes with The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

We are joined tonight by former five-term Mayor Willie Herenton.

Thanks for being here.

- Thank you.

- Candidate for mayor, again, thank you so much for being here.

Along with Bill Dries, reporter with The Daily Memphian.

For those who haven't been following take a moment just to update everyone.

This is part of a series of interviews one-on-one we've been doing with the top candidates for mayor over the last couple of months.

The last one will be Floyd Bonner, which I think is a week from when this airs, a week or two from when this airs.

We've since, over the last two months we've interviewed Karen Camper, JW Gibson, Michelle McKissack, Van Turner, and Paul Young.

There's been no magic or anything to the order.

It's just as we've been able to get things scheduled with the candidates and their folks.

All those past interviews are available at wkno.org or you can go to YouTube and search for "Behind The Headlines", or you can go to The Daily Memphian website.

We also did a debate on August 15th with about four or five of the candidates I just mentioned.

That's also available on the WKNO site, The Daily Memphian.

And I should note that while election day is October 5th early voting begins September 15th.

And my last bit of housekeeping before we get to the former mayor is that this is one week delay because of my schedule.

So if I ask the mayor not to make any news between now and then.

Thank you for being here.

I'll start with the question I've asked most everyone I think, is, you look at the last eight years has Jim Strickland been a successful mayor?

- Well, let me tell you what I've stayed away from doing since I left the mayor's office.

Other than one exception, I think I made some comments about the Warden Administration but I've not made any assessments or any statements about the current mayor's leadership and administration.

But I'm a citizen.

When people ask me that, obviously I speak from a personal reference because I was mayor for almost 18 years.

So it's a relative question.

Jim Strickland came in as mayor at a different period in Memphis history.

So when you look back, when I came in as mayor in 1991 Memphis was a totally different city.

I mean, so we had to rise up from a desolate barren downtown, no real corporate Fortune 500 company.

It's a whole lot of stuff.

I think Mayor Strickland has been what I call a maintenance mayor, a status quo mayor.

And maybe the times kind of dictated that that was fine.

But when I came in, it was all about transformation.

So he's not been a transformational mayor.

I think he's been a maintenance mayor, a status quo mayor.

- You know, 18 years, 5 terms, what brings you back to this race again?

You ran four years ago against Strickland and Tammy Sawyer, but what what brought you back this time that you wanted to give us though?

- You know, Eric, that's probably the most profound question that you will ask of me this evening.

First of all, I love Memphis.

I devoted much of my life to public service.

Thirty years in the school system, twelve as school superintendent and almost eighteen as mayor.

When I took a deep look into where my city is, my hometown and I looked at the candidates that were running for mayor and I looked at where we are.

We're in a critical juncture in the history of our city.

And quite frankly, and my answer may appear to you to be self-serving.

I looked at all of the candidates and I looked at Memphis challenges, and as a citizen, and as a former mayor, I could not truthfully say that I felt comfortable with any of the candidates being in the mayor's office and having the capabilities of addressing the deep challenges of Memphis.

So I prayed about it first, I talked to my family, and obviously my kids didn't want me to do it.

And so they said, "Dad, you've done this a long time.

"You're 83 years old.

Relax, go to the beach, build some houses."

But it kept nagging me, and then the Tyre Nichols situation, and when Memphis being designated as the most dangerous city in America.

So I couldn't sit on the sidelines.

I could not sit on the sidelines and watch the decline and not express a desire for the citizens to put me back in the arena.

- All right, let me bring in Bill.

- So Mayor, if you are elected to this position, what happens with crime on day one?

Do you go in there and immediately come in with a different philosophy, or do you assess what's been going on with crime?

- Bill, you're gonna hear me this evening, talk about when I go back, I've gotta make a lot of assessments.

While I know the basic operations of government and the divisions, I know those operations well, but a lot has transpired since I left.

So to answer your question and look at crime, let me just say this as well.

During my tenure in office, I had five police directors.

If you will recall, five, two of the directors of police were able to survive and meet my expectations.

So I fundamentally believed that the police culture needs fixing.

I knew exactly what I need to do day one with the police department.

When I was mayor I did not run the police department, but I knew it.

I understood it.

I still understand it.

For example, you didn't ask but the Tyre Nichols situation was a dreadful occurrence.

We had, when I was mayor, a special unit.

So I think you still ought to have special units.

I think the chief today calls a special unit SCORPION.

Mine was called COBRA.

So you gotta have specialized unit.

But when we had specialized units we had layers of accountability.

We had a major, we had a lieutenant and we had a sergeant.

What you saw with those officers would never happen on our watch, because we carefully selected the officers and they were properly supervised.

So when I saw that do you know that damaged the image of Memphis?

We were in all major newspapers telling all over the world.

So one of the things, I gotta go back, I gotta fix it.

I know how to fix it.

- Is there a balance between a Tyre Nichols incident and then the reaction of many Memphians felt when Eliza Fletcher was killed?

I mean, is there a balance in how the police department deals with both of those, deals with a violent crime and deals with an allegation of abuse by its officers that costs someone their life?

- Yes, sir.

And that was also another dreadful situation that occurred in Memphis.

I think, you know, Bill, I'm pro-law enforcement, as long as law enforcement operates within constitutional law, and we don't deprive people of their constitutional rights.

I'm a law and order kind of guy.

The balance is that the police are sworn officers to uphold certain laws, rules and regulations.

So I wanna hold them accountable for that.

The citizenry is also bound to respect police officers.

What I'm seeing today is a breakdown in respect for law enforcement.

I'm also seeing a breakdown in some of the officers who are behaving inappropriately.

So that's that balance, that you're probably addressing.

That's what I'm looking for.

And let me also say this, the quality of the officers, by and large it's not at the level that we had when I was mayor.

They've lowered the standards.

And I know Mayor Strickland has been trying desperately to get back to the 2,500, which I'm not pledging to do that, because the officers that we will be selecting during my next tenure in office, I want high quality officers.

I'm not so much interested in the quantity, I'm more interested in the quality.

So there's gotta be a balance in quantity and quality of offices in the future.

I don't know if I've answered your question.

- Yes, sir.

And as you know, I think all of the other candidates have talked about we need to get to at least 2,300, which is the goal, the city and the administration agreed on.

It sounds like you think we may need more officers but that the number of officers shouldn't be driving how we put more profound changes in the police department.

- In fact, Bill, in all honesty, I think it's going to be an uphill struggle to reach that quantitative goal with quality officers.

Now, I may be too critical, but I've seen a lot of the officers.

I remember the incident, not the most recent one on Beale Street, 'cause I called some of the retired officers.

I saw an event on Beale Street where the thugs overwhelmed the police.

I saw policemen who looked as if they were fearful of all of the thug behavior.

And I remember talking to some of the officer, they said "Doc..." They called me Doc.

"In our day and time, that would not have been tolerated," so- - That the police, I'm sorry, that the police did not respond?

- No, no, no, no.

What I'm saying, what I saw, Eric, the police was on the scene, but the thugs overwhelmed the police, the police did not control the situation.

That's what I'm talking about - So, in that...

I'm sorry Bill.

But not tolerated.

The police should have taken more assertive action?

- I think the police should have been a little bit more aggressive.

And it is back to, Bill mentioned the word balance.

You gotta control those situations at the same time, you gotta respect the constitutional rights of people.

But at that time you've got to have the law and order, you've got to have that.

- I'll go back to Bill.

- One of the other issues that we've heard a lot about which you're certainly familiar with, is education.

And the city no longer funds what is now Memphis-Shelby County Schools.

You were superintendent of Memphis City Schools for a long tenure.

If you're mayor, does the city fund or resume funding the Memphis and Shelby County School system?

At some level that is a maintenance of effort qualification by the state.

- Bill, if you will recall, there was a great debate during my tenure when the members of the City Council brought this issue up and I advised them of the maintenance of effort requirement because I was opposed to us changing the funding mechanism.

To answer your question, no, I would not recommend that we go back to the old funding.

But here's what I would recommend.

In fact, if they ever get a school superintendent I hope to get a quality one.

I wanna have a great relationship with a competent school superintendent.

I think what the city...

The city needs to allocate some of its resources to the schools.

If you will recall, I think during my nearly 18-year tenure, we provided about $175 million to the Memphis City Schools to help to complete the air conditioning.

We were not required to do that.

So I think the mayor with the concurrence of the City Council, ought to allocate money.

For example, I would like to see us allocate resources to hire more counselors in the schools.

I think the mental health issues are not being addressed, and they're not being addressed with juveniles.

I'd like to see us help with more workforce development funding.

Vocational technical education is not what it used to be in the old days.

So I have some ideas of how the city of Memphis can partner, provide additional resources, but not return to the old funding mechanism.

- And if there is no maintenance of effort then the city can have some line item control over where the money goes, right?

- Well, that was one of the issues even when I was school superintendent the City Council would allocate and approve our budget but had no line item control.

You know, I've been on both sides of this.

I'm not sure that I would want the City Council to have line item control.

I think the local board of education and the superintendent of schools once the funding is allocated, I think the elected and appointed officials ought to be able to make those decisions without any line item control on the part of the Memphis City Council or the mayor.

- About 10 minutes left in the show here.

Let's switch to economic development.

We talked a little bit beforehand.

We had Paul Young on recently who's head of Downtown Memphis Commission, obviously running for mayor.

It always is like a conversation that come up on this table with politicians with business leaders, about the use of incentives.

And going back to your administration it was sometimes controversial.

The Wharton administration, the Strickland administration those can be city incentives, county incentives, there's the EDGE board now, DMC all these various entities.

Do you look at the way incentives are, be they PILOTs, TIFs any of that sort of those mechanisms?

Are they being overused?

Are they being underused?

- Well, let me put that under, when I return as mayor, I've got to evaluate what has transpired since I left.

So I don't think it's appropriate for me to make a judgment about the use of those incentives.

Now, as a citizen, I've looked at some, and I'll be honest with you, within my own mind, I questioned whether those incentives were necessary to get the deal done.

But I was not sitting at the table.

Are you following me?

- Do you have an example of one of those?

- As a citizen, I've watched some.

And then let me tell you what we have to be watchful for.

It is corporate greed.

It's the abuse of incentives.

And I think the mayor has to be a watchdog along with other critics in the community, to make sure that they are reasonable, that they're necessary, and that they yield the benefits to the citizenry.

- Do you look back at the incentives you did in your 18 years and do you regret any of those?

- No.

- Okay.

Let me switch to MLGW.

A lot of conversation on this.

For years now MLGW has been a big topic of conversation.

This year with so many outages be that storm, be that wind, be that ice, be that rain, whatever.

There's been many outages.

And we come off a period of debate on whether MLGW should have moved away from TVA as its primary supplier of electricity.

So first, what is your take on the state of of MLGW now, and where it's going in terms of dealing with outages and infrastructure and two, should the question of leaving TVA be reopened?

- Okay, let me remind you of something I'm sure Bill will remember.

Do you remember when I proposed the option to sell MLG&W?

- I do.

- If you go back and review that and I remember there were two corporate giants who said, Willie, this is a Wall Street deal, you'll never get it done in Memphis.

And Bill, if you will recall when I proposed it at the City Council, the MLG and the electrical union came in the conference room.

All these union guys surrounded me, I think Pat Vanderstaff- It was in the old days, I could not get a single vote from the City Council.

The unions just overwhelmed them.

I couldn't get a vote.

At that particular time, I really believed, had we seriously looked at divesting ourselves on that, 'cause it's a three tier utility company, we would've yield about a $800 million dividend in the coffers of the city of Memphis.

And we structured the deal where we still would...

I'm talking about privatizing it many years ago.

Now, in retrospect and as a citizen, I've sat, I looked back and I said, "I wonder if we had privatized, "would the privatized entity have improved the infrastructure?"

Which I'm getting to your question.

Today you're seeing a declining infrastructure in our grid system, all of it's decaying.

The gentleman who is now the president of ML, I think I've met him once- - Doug McGowen.

- And you're gonna ask me a question about him.

I'm not one of the guys who's talking about throwing this gentleman under the bus.

From all I've seen, his presentation, he seems to be methodical.

I think he's telling the community the truth.

This is a long term.

What I mean by the infrastructure is declining.

We've got to invest significant resources.

He's talked about the tree trimming which has gotten way out of control.

This is going to...

It's long term.

- Yeah, back to the privatization.

Would you put that back on the table?

- Well, let me just say this, I'm not sure... We had a great opportunity at that time.

I'm not sure the window is there.

We had JP Morgan had looked at the deal, we had Morgan Keegan.

It was a good deal for investment banking, it was a good deal for Memphis and the rate payers and all of that.

I'm not sure that situation exists today.

- Before I go back to Bill, and should the TVA contract be reopened?

- Let me tell you that we had, if memory serves me correct, there was like a 10-year period in which you had to look at it before the next 10-year cycle.

So a lot of it, Eric and Bill, I've gotta go back into review, because I've been gone so long, and we had a window and I'm not sure where that window is now.

- All right, we have six minutes, Bill.

- I think the window is a five-year window at this point.

And it's kind of a rolling agreement at this point.

So when you look at what's happened in city government, in the city in general since you left in 2009, in your mind, is the city's trajectory up or down?

Is it a steady line up, a steady line down, or is it kind of all over the place?

- That's a profound question.

Where we are now, I think we are in a crisis mode.

I think the decisions that are made as we move forward are gonna be critical to the future of Memphis.

The public safety issue is facing us in such horrible dimensions.

The poverty situation, the lack of affordable housing, the homeless situation is growing, declining infrastructure.

I think Memphis at this particular time it's gotta be very careful on leadership.

Not only in the mayor's office but people who serve on the City Council, County Commission all these boards.

Are we at a good place?

I don't think so.

- What do you think about the state of our politics?

I mean, we have what I've called the new generation of local leaders who are running for office, who are raising issues.

Is our politics in a better place?

- Bill, on last evening, we met with some millenniums.

Okay, I wish you could have taped a session.

I met with some millenniums and it was real interesting.

I mean, they were hitting me with hard stuff.

And we had a hard give and take.

And I came away from that meeting because some of 'em were elected officials over there.

And bear in mind, I think I raised the bar pretty high.

So my expectations are pretty high.

I have seen a diminution in the quality, the breadth and the depth of intellect and understanding government in many of the elected officials.

So I've seen a decline.

Remember I was there when Jesse Turner and Vasco Smith I was there when we had the best of our community in these elected off... Today I see opportunists, I see people who are in a meaningful position, but I'm not sure that they're our best.

- With just a couple minutes left here.

You did a profile with Sam Hardiman in The Daily Memphian, who writes about politics and the campaign for us.

And you talked about that.

You got...

I'll let you phrase this.

Complacent in your last couple of terms.

- I did.

- What did you mean by that?

How can you expand on that?

- Okay, I'm glad you asked the question, 'cause you'd have to understand, I'm the, the kind of guy I gotta climb a mountain every day.

When I came into the mayorship I knew I had to be a transformational leader.

We didn't have professional...

Downtown was dead, public housing was in ruins.

We didn't have professional sports.

So when we turned all of that around in about three terms people that were close to me knew, I said, "What else is there for me to do?"

I'm not the kind of guy, I don't want to just occupy the mayor's office.

So the other event there were two things, if you will recall.

Bill will recall, 'cause he wrote about it, I was involved in a two-year intensive federal investigation that weighed heavily on me personally, and it impacted my mother and my children, and then I'm in my office, what is there else for me to do?

So I couldn't sit there and draw a paycheck and just sit on my laurels, and I got complacent.

And the reason I'm coming back now is, man there's a lot to do.

[Willie laughs] Does that make sense to answer your question?

- Yeah, and you brought up the federal probe.

Does it still bother you?

I mean, does it linger for you?

People bring it up, right?

As you're running.

- No, well, for me, I know what it was all about.

In my book that's coming out, I have, I might as well tell it's a chapter, it's called "The Plot".

You're gonna find my book very interesting.

I understood all the dynamics and I think I made a statement to Sam Hardiman.

When I stood and took the oath of office as mayor with my mother standing by my side, my hand on a Bible, I never violated that oath.

- Alright, we're out of time.

Thank you Mayor Herenton for being here, thank you, Bill.

Again to everyone who's watching, we taped this a week ago, so that's because of my schedule.

If you missed any of the show or any of the other six or five or six profiles, we've done of candidate so far, they're at wkno.org.

We've got Floyd Bonner, the last of the major candidates coming up very soon.

I think it's in a week or so.

Early voting begins September 15th and election day is October 5th.

You can read more about all the candidates and the the candidates for City Council at dailymemphian.com.

Thanks very much, we'll see you next week.

[intense orchestral music] [acoustic guitar chords]