Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey Education Association, making public schools great for every child.

Promotional support for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by insider NJ, a political insider network dedicated to New Jersey's political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players an interactive forum for ideas, discussion, and insight.

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♪ David: welcome to "Chat Box."

We continue to try to figure out exactly in what direction the country is heading under a new president who is most definitely keeping his promise to be the disrupter in chief.

In our second half, we discuss efforts to continue to empower communities to trust the electoral process and use it as a tool for social justice.

But we begin today with the immigration flashpoint.

The Trump Administration promising to cut off federal aid to any state or municipality that adopts so-called sanctuary city policies.

That is, local officials refusing to cooperate with immigration and customs enforcement.

Let's get the perspective of two mayors on opposite sides of this issue.

Republican Tony Perry is the mayor of Middletown, who supports the Trump administration policies of ICE raids and mass deportations, and Democrat Reed Gusciora, who opposes them.

Thank you for taking a few moments.

Let's start with you, Mayor Gusciora.

Trenton is a sanctuary city.

In a practical sense, what does that mean?

Mayor Gusciora: our police to permit operates under the same guidelines as Middletown.

The Attorney General's immigrant trust directive that we do not ask for immigration status during questioning, unless it has to do with a crime, but that is essentially it.

What we want to do is create an atmosphere of trust that we want immigrants who are victims of crime to be able to not be afraid of our police and be able to cooperate with them so that we can solve crimes.

David: Mayor Perry, you heard Mayor Gusciora say his town Council passed a resolution affirming this policy.

Am I right that your town passed a resolution recently kind of in the opposite direction?

Mayor Perry: We actually passed it in 2019, a resolution opposing Governor Murphy's efforts to direct law enforcement from not being able to work with the federal authorities to enforce certain rules and regulations at the federal level.

And we think that is the wrong approach to sand, the wrong signal to send.

It is one that you see happening in states across the country, but one that sends the wrong message because we are a nation of laws and if we want to protect the citizens that we have, we cannot begin to make subgroups out of individuals who are in this country illegally.

That is the premise of this matter.

Let's ensure that all rules are being followed, that all laws are being followed.

It is illegal to enter this country not in a port of entry and not to seek the proper legal remedies to enter this country.

And I think it is a really bad message, and when you look at the laws that are coming out of the city of Trenton, but the big gold dome that sits in the city of Trenton, the laws whether on this issue or the bail reform issue, these are just bad laws that are coming out, sending the wrong message that New Jersey is a safe haven where if you commit crimes, you will be safe from any law and order that is required.

David: Is that what is wrong with Tony Perry's argument?

Mayor Gusciora: No.

We abide by the law and if someone commits a crime we have them arrested.

Middletown has their own sanctuary status in people's backyards and restaurant kitchens.

So, there are immigrants all throughout New Jersey.

My family is from immigrants that came here, hard-working people, and try to get ahead.

And I think the bigger issue is making the economy better and getting down the price of eggs and gas, which the Trump Administration wants to distract from the real issues.

David: Mayor Perry, does Middletown have a large immigrant population?

Mayor Perry: Middletown is a town made up of almost 70,000 people from all walks of life.

And to insinuate that Middletown has an issue with illegal immigration I think is a little bit perplexing certainly when I don't know if the mayor is talking to certain individuals at restaurants and whatever other businesses.

But I can say that illegal immigration has been an issue that impacts every single municipality and every single stay in our nation.

Every single state became a border state under the last president.

To say within three or four weeks of President Trump becoming president that he is not focused on the economy and the price of -- .

Mayor Gusciora: Do you believe if your neighbor uses migrant labor to do their backyard or hire them in the kitchen that they are criminals?

Mayor Perry: I think that all -- Mayor Gusciora: Your neighbors using migrant labor, is that wrong?

Mayor Perry: If you enter the country illegally, that is a crime.

That is the first crime.

I know that the Democratic Party loves to sit there and talk about how you want to be sympathetic and understanding and they haven't committed any crimes, entering the country illegally and nodded a port of entry is a crime, first and foremost.

I know the Democratic Party -- Mayor Gusciora: So your neighbors who hire immigrants are criminals as well?

I don't believe that and I think you are in a bad mood because your stock portfolio is gone down.

David: Let him finish, Mayor.

Mayor Perry: Mayor, I am doing OK because the Township of Middletown is doing great and I understand that you and your party want to run away from this matter.

David: Let's stay focused on the issue at hand here.

Mayor Perry: Over 200,000 Americans died in the last two years from Sentinel that comes across -- from Fentanyl that comes across the border into the United States.

I understand you don't want to talk about that issue.

Mayor Gusciora: I will talk about it.

It was the same amount as in the Trump administration before.

Mayor Perry: This is why these conversations are difficult because when somebody doesn't want to hear the truth and hear that 200,000 Americans died -- David: Let me stop both of you there.

Let's try to stay focused on the question of immigration.

You want to talk about Fentanyl.

You have to separate that out because there isn't any real evidence that the people who are coming here illegally are the actual source of the fentanyl crisis.

My question was, do you have a large immigrant population in your town?

Mayor Perry: No, we don't.

David: Mayor Perry, your downtowns, your restaurants and bars, etc., are there a lot of immigrants working in those bars?

Barb backs, waiters, etc.?

Mayor Perry: The people working at restaurants are here.

The have the response will lead to verify to the federal government that they are legal residents.

Our argument has always been that we should be ensuring that the open borders allowing people to come in are not open to the point where we have a rush at our southern border that creates these very issues.

I think that is what is missing from the argument and from the defense of the Democratic Party on this issue.

David: Mayor Gusciora, I think Mayor Perry would say it is inappropriate for any municipality to provide services, including any kind of protection, for anyone who is in the country without authorization.

What is wrong with that?

Mayor Gusciora: I don't think we do that.

The police are there to protect sit at the end, no matter who they are.

We want the victims to cooperate.

I don't know what specific expenditures he is talking about.

Mayor Perry: New York was spending millions of dollars in the New Jersey State budget, we were spending $10 million in American rescue plan money on illegal immigrants to our country.

That is American dollars going towards individuals that do not pay taxes.

David: Let me ask you this.

Mayor Gusciora: They pay a lot of taxes, and they pay into Social Security, and they don't collect that.

So, the federal government banks on migrants paying in.

Mayor Perry: If an illegal immigrant does not have a Social Security number, you say they are paying into Social Security?

Mayor Gusciora: Absolutely.

There are studies that show that migrants pay billions of dollars in Social Security taxes that don't come back to them.

David: Let me ask you this, Mayor Perry.

I assume you were a supporter of the Laken Riley bill?

Mayor Perry: Of course.

Mayor Gusciora: It is already a fact that if some of the commits a felony, they should be deported, whether it is murder -- David: Let me finish my question.

This is to Mayor Perry.

So you support the Laken Riley act, which allows for and requires deportation of individuals who are here without authorization without any due process, even if you are charged with shoplifting.

You can be arrested and deported.

Our people in this country -- are people who are in this country not authorized to be here not covered by the same standards as citizens when it comes to due process?

Mayor Perry: Americans are offered due process through our judicial system.

David: I understand that.

I am talking about someone who is here without authorization.

Mayor Perry: You are bringing up the Laken Riley act, which had bipartisan support.

David: I am aware of that.

Mayor Perry: Received Democratic support on that, and received a Democratic support when it was passed and signed into law.

My belief is you have individuals who are admitting to these crimes and are being -- David: I am asking you about individuals who are simply charged with a crime, as minor as shoplifting.

Mayor Perry: That is not happening in the state of New Jersey because we are unable to work with our immigration, customs, and enforcement.

David: Mayor, you are avoiding the question.

Mayor Perry: I am not avoiding the question.

I'm trying to get to the answer.

David: Get to it.

Mayor Perry: In the New Jersey we live in today, shoplifting is not even being heard because we are not -- we are handcuffing our police officers on what is happening in our streets today.

You are talking about shoplifting when it comes to the Laken Riley act.

Laken Riley was brutally murdered and raped and I'm not going to compare that to shoplifting.

I think it is a little bit misconstrued by the question to say that we are not going to afford someone due process when it comes to shoplifting.

David: That is what the law says.

Mayor Perry: We cannot get people prosecuted in the state of New Jersey because of the administrative office of the courts.

When they go over the speed limit, we don't want those things heard.

We are handcuffing police officers every step of the way.

The cashless bail reform and failure by both Republicans and Democrats on that to have that go into a fact -- into effect, New Jersey is no longer enforcing our own laws.

It is criminal to say that we are not affording due process.

These people have broken the law.

That is grounds there to be deported in and of itself.

David: I am going to have to give the last word to you, Mayor Gusciora.

I assume you are more likely to see ICE enforcement activity than Mayor Perry is because of the populations of your municipalities.

Are you taking any special precautions?

Or what special precautions or preparations are you taking for future ICE activity?

Mayor Gusciora: Like I said, we have the same directive that applies to Middletown, that applies to Trenton.

But if ICE wants to take away hardened criminals and concentrate on murder and first-degree crimes, I am all for it.

Gang affiliation.

But what the police need to do their job -- I will agree, we need more cops on the street, but I don't know what that has to do with immigration.

David: We will leave it right there.

Tony Perry, Reed Gusciora, thanks for coming on with us.

Elections have consequences.

You hear us say that all the time.

And that is especially true nowadays.

Our next guest has made empowerment to the electoral process the center of her professional life.

Shennell Barnes-McCloud is CEO of project ready NJ, and executive producer and writer of "dear America: A letter from black women."

Welcome.

Shennell: it is so good to see you and it is so good to be back.

So much as happened since the last time we spoke.

David: I think it was in the early days of project ready.

I remember it was election night.

We talked about project ready.

Those were the early days of the project.

Where are we today with that?

Shennell: We have come so far.

In the early days, we kicked off our project ready social justice, activating across New York.

We have been able to activate over 51% of our members in low turnout elections like school board elections.

We have done the work to make sure we can keep our voters engaged and excited given the state of democracy.

David: Tell us about the Dear America project you are involved in.

Shennell: I am the executive producer of "Dear America," a film that captures the voices of black women and their allies across the country to essentially write a love letter to America about the love letters of their heart -- about their heart.

We have seen an increase in health care policies that don't harm but actually protect, and above all else, we specifically talked about the power of the black women's vote and how we have been activating democracy for a very long time.

David: I have seen you talk about black women's policy agenda.

You have touched on some of the subjects there.

But tell me about that agenda specifically.

Shennell: We have been able to use the film as a backdrop for our ability to be able to travel to 10 states across the nation.

We have gone from Pennsylvania to North Carolina, Louisiana, Atlanta, and Savannah, to name a few.

While we have been screening the film, we have actually been capturing surveys and having one-on-ones with folks who have come out in order to see the film, specifically black women.

Within that, we have been able to develop what we are now releasing for the first time here on your show, our black women's policy agenda.

In the policy agenda, we were able to interview a little over 500 women over the time, and the following came up.

Economic mobility as something that is top of mind for black women, health care, and educational equity, to name a few.

David: I saw you on -- I forget where it was.

You were talking about 100 thousand black women committing to vote.

Shennell: Yes.

Yes, absolutely.

We ran a voter commitment forum through our website in addition to screening the film, and we were able to get really close, but we didn't actually hit the 100,000 mark.

We got to 50,000 women who actually committed to vote.

David: The whole idea of elections having consequences and the potential to use election results to empower people, I want to talk about the most recent election.

As is almost always the case, black women are the basis of the Democratic Party when it comes to elections.

This year was no different.

I think it was like 90% of black women voted for the Democratic -- Shennell: 92%, Mr. Cruz.

[laughter] 92%.

We showed out.

David: For the Democratic Party.

As the party delivering for black look -- is the party delivering for black women?

Shennell: You know, I am going to speak for myself as Shennell Barnes.

I do not believe at this stage, the party is delivering.

We set out a path in order to make sure that we could have elected officials in place that would not harm democracy, but that would actually uplift democracy, that would protect us in a way that we have never seen protection before, to be quite honest.

And unfortunately, we are in a moment where we still are not seeing those protections.

In fact, for the protections we did have, we are actually seeing them become gutted.

DEI right now is being gutted.

Voter protection rights right now is being gutted.

A vision for us to actually achieve the economic mobility that we always thought that we should have, and that quite frankly we always deserved, we are seeing policies around that being gutted.

So in my opinion, I believe right now the Democratic Party needs to do way more in order to quite frankly get us to go from the exhaustion that I think we are all feeling right now to being re-inspired in democracy.

David: Let's talk about this moment.

You talk about people being exhausted but needing to be reinspired.

How concerned are you for the state of this democracy?

Is it going to be able to hold?

You talk about the attacks on D.E.I., which is a big smokescreen creating boogeymen.

If you want to stay inspired, but it is hard when you look out the window to see what is happening out there, it is difficult to stay inspired.

Or is it?

Shennell: This is a good point.

I got an email yesterday for my children's school, and I never thought I would see an email like this.

In the email, they said, if you have a student who is an immigrant, please do not bring your child to school, because if you bring your child to school, we fear what the backlash will be for the students within the school who ultimately are experiencing a student being taken away, taken away viciously.

I am born and raised in North Jersey and I have the unfortunate moment to experience people who are looking to make sure that children, actual children, have everything that they need in the case that they are being taken away by ICE.

And I just never thought I would see a moment like this.

I never did.

So, when you say, are you able to stay inspired?

I think the only thing that is inspiring me right now are the moments when we are able to tour our film, "Dear America, A Letter from Black Women," and we are able to sit in safe spaces with hundreds of women.

Not just black women, hundreds of people who are exploring the film, but now exploring in the wake of, we voted, we thought we were going to have someone else in office, we have this person, now we are attempting to come together and strategize on what it looks like for us to not just fight for our voting rights, because that is what we were doing before.

Now we are just fighting for our life.

David: There was the suppose it fall off of black men going to support the new president, even though ultimately it was a handful, maybe 10% max.

Still have 80% or so of black men voting for Kamala Harris.

Are you concerned that the black men who left the party, do they need to hear a different message?

Shennell: I think that the narrative has been that there has been this tremendous fall off of black men, but I think we are not giving enough voice to all of the black men that actually came out and stood up and fought for their rights of our people.

By way of that, actually protected some of the most vulnerable people.

And by vulnerable, I mean black women, I mean immigrants, I mean even our Latinx community.

So, it is my opinion that we need to be thinking about uplifting the narrative of those who did fight so that those who did fight can continue to fight and can continue to spread accurate information about this moment so that people can make informed decisions.

David: You talk about being born and raised in Newark, and Newark is on the vanguard of ballot efforts, most recently getting the rights to ballot access to 16 and 17-year-old.

There have been some concerns raised by critics, and I remember being at some city Council meetings where critics did speak out about giving the rights to 16 and 17-year-old over the process of transparency in the absence of parental involvement.

How has that process been going, and what do you say to critics who talk about that?

Shennell: I am going to say this.

If the critics are not concerned about the current voting blocs that we have, then I say that is a problem.

And I say I would be very interested in what it looks like to start to uplift our 16-year-olds so that maybe we can actually finally see the democracy that we deserve.

They have a voice, they have an opinion, they have a thought, and they are our future.

If any world where 16-year-olds are actually thinking about the state of the nation and weighing in is a world I very much want to live in, especially given the state of the nation right now.

David: Shennell Barnes-McCloud, good to see you.

Keep it up.

Shennell: So good to see you.

Thank you.

David: Our thanks to mayors Reed Gusciora and Tony Perry.

Subscribed to the NJ Spotlight News YouTube channel.

For the entire team here at Gateway Center in downtown Newark, thanks for watching.

We will see you next week.

Announcer: Major funding for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by the members of the New Jersey Education Association, making public schools great for every child.

Promotional support for "Chat Box with David Cruz" is provided by Insider NJ, a political intelligence network dedicated to New Jersey's political news.

Insider NJ is committed to giving serious political players an interactive forum for ideas, discussion, and insight.

Online at insiderNJ.com.