Lakeland Currents, your public affairs program for north central Minnesota.

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Hello again friends.

I'm Jason Edens your host of Lakeland Currents.

Thanks for joining the conversation today and thanks for your ongoing support of Lakeland Public Broadcasting.

It is my privilege to introduce the newly inaugurated President of Bemidji State University and Northwest Technical College, Dr. John Hoffman.

I've invited Dr. Hoffman to join me to tell me a little bit about his educational philosophy as well as his vision for the future of BSU and Northwest Tech.

Dr. Hoffman, welcome to the program and thanks for making time for our conversation.

Jason it is just such an honor to be here.

Thank you.

I appreciate it.

So, it's my understanding that you held leadership positions at both the University of California-Fullerton and Long Beach.

So, I'm really curious what motivated you to relocate from Southern California to northern Minnesota?

Well, it's a great question.

I grew up in the midwest, just a small spit of a town in Western Iowa and went to college in Nebraska, did my graduate work down in the Twin Cities and really, you know, just love the Midwest.

When I first went out to California, I thought I might be there for three, four, maybe five years.

Of course, my greatest accomplishment then occurred.

I met the Dr. Hoffman, Dr. Joy Hoffman.

So, got married there and so we stayed in California for 20 years to raise her kids and once they got to college there was an opportunity to look to return.

Well, looking through your professional history, it's quite obvious that equity and inclusion are central to your mission as an educator.

In fact, in your bio on the BSU website, it says that while you were at the University of California, you contributed to graduation rates with no measurable achievement gap based on race or gender.

So, I have a two-part question for you.

First, how did you achieve that and second and potentially more importantly for our viewers here, how will you do that here in Minnesota where we have the highest achievement gap in the country?

So, first the you is a we.

I was a part of an amazing team of colleagues at Cal State-Fullerton while I was there and part of the work was helping to diversify the faculty.

So, when I started we were at about 16 percent of the faculty within the department were faculty of color.

When I finished it was over 50 percent.

We also had a significant number of students, students of color within our program, about three quarters to 80 percent of the students.

So, building on that diversity in that space, we were able to work to create some changes in the curriculum, changes in how we go about teaching, how we learn from our students in the process of their experience and that's what led to what was really a remarkable program and I still look back to my colleagues but in particular those students and some of the lessons that they taught me about what excellence in education looks like and so more critically as we bring that to Minnesota, there's some real questions about doing that here in Minnesota as a state and in a rural community in northern Minnesota.

But, we've got some great things that we can lean on.

First, Bemidji's location, located here among the three largest Indigenous nations in the State of Minnesota, gives us access to rich diversity in terms of the racial composition of the region.

I think it's also important that we're mindful of, diversity is rural and urban.

It has to do with men and women.

It has to do with folks who come from well-to-do families and from families that are not so well to do.

It has to do with students who come to college and whose parents have gone there beforehand as well as those who were the first in their families to go to college and so as we tap into some of those efforts to how do we bridge the gap for students from rural communities and those from cities.

I think a lot of those lessons then apply to how do we work on bridging the gaps with our American Indian students and our white students at the campus, our students who are black and Asian and Latino and etc.

So, that's the opportunity that's set before us.

I'm looking forward to the work.

Are you optimistic that you can achieve a similar accomplishment and actually address the achievement gap here in Minnesota because that would be that would be an incredible achievement given the fact that our state has a history of having such a significant achievement gap.

Are you optimistic?

Well, Jason I will say yes, I'm very optimistic and I will again say I'm an optimistic about the we not the me.

If it really comes back to the work of John Hoffman we'll fail miserably.

If we're coming back to my role as helping to position people to do their best work, to focus our work, you know, a lot of times we work in different areas and different areas of focus but if we can focus, channel our attention into holistic student success that is grounded in equity and inclusion, I am confident that we can make some significant gains, that we can close this gap.

It is the mission of Minnesota State as a system, you know, across our great state.

It is a moral imperative.

It's also an economic imperative.

If we're going to be successful economically in our communities in the future, we've got to bridge the moral work, to do the right thing by all of our students.

So, as you know Dr. Hoffman, President Biden recently leveraged the Heroes Act of 2003 in order to provide a one-time debt relief or even debt cancellation for millions of folks that are struggling with college debt.

The Congressional Budget Office, however, recently disclosed that that's going to cost about $400 billion, nearly a half a trillion dollars.

Do you think that's good public policy?

I do.

Now, are we going to again, this is a one-time effort.

I think that's an important part of this but we also, as we look at the economic impact, we've got to be mindful of what is the positive impact of a college degree?

Bemidji State University, NTC study.

Now this was pre-pandemic 2018.

$320 million impact on the State of Minnesota, contributing to 2,700 jobs.

Tax bases alone over $18 million in contributing to local and statewide taxes.

That's the work of the university and then as you start thinking about, where are the jobs going?

Where are future jobs going in the State of Minnesota?

70 percent of future jobs and an even higher percent of future good jobs require a post-secondary credential and currently we're sitting in terms of total, we're far short of that in our population in Minnesota.

So, we've got to be aggressive and helping folks who didn't go to college or started college and didn't finish a credential to find their way back and to do the work and upskilling so they're prepared for the future jobs of Minnesota and also to create those pathways and they're going to become more diverse pathways for our students coming out of high school so that they can go to college.

Sometimes they go into the workforce and then to college.

Sometimes it's a little bit back and forth but to find their way to ensure that they're prepared for the next generation of jobs in the State of Minnesota.

So, that was sort of a one-time measure right?

So, I'm curious to what lengths are you willing to go in order to ensure that both institutions, both BSU and Northwest Tech remain affordable going forward?

That's a great question and I'm really glad that you're asking that because first we need to understand the higher education landscape is quite diverse.

So, in terms of looking at the tuition that is charged for a student when they go to college, you know, we're looking at about $9,000 a year in tuition at Bemidji State University, less than that at NTC.

There are institutions right here in this state that are charging $30-40,000 a year in tuition and so as we hear about this landscape and about this excessive loan debt, we have to recognize that's not all students who go to college.

That's students who go to a certain sector of college.

I'm really excited about being at Bemidji State and Northwest Tech because we have placed so much effort and emphasis on being affordable and accessible so that we don't have our students graduating with this excessive loan debt that that prevents them from utilizing their degree to be successful after they graduate.

But, I'm going to take it a step further.

I think one of the things that just really excites me about the space is our alumni.

In three months, I have met so many alumni who have graduated and their experience at Bemidji State was so valuable so critical and transformational to their life success that not only do they talk about being proud, they are investing their time and dollars back to the university to make a difference in the lives of our current students through scholarships, making it more accessible and that's the vision.

The vision for every student who's at Bemidji State right now, every student who's at Northwest Tech that they graduate, that they are so successful in life that they feel compelled to contribute their time and dollars to future generations.

So, in principle not in practice, sure but in principle do you think that post-secondary education should be free?

In principle this is a good question.

So, in principle, of course, but it is a complex question.

So, for example, I make a pretty good income.

My youngest has one year of college left.

Should taxpayers be contributing to the college education of my kids?

That's I think a different type of question.

So, when we talk about what is free, accessible higher education, that is going to look different for me and for my family than it is for the vast majority of families in Bemidji and frankly the vast majority of families in Minnesota.

The critical question there, that we get to is how do we address this for individuals who come from families that are not as fortunate as I am in terms of their financial means.

That's where this free college really becomes important.

Let me take a step back.

If we go back to the early 2000's, the State of Minnesota was covering two-thirds of the cost.

Tuition was covering a third of the cost of what we're doing as institutions.

Today at Bemidji State and Northwest Tech, it's well over 50 percent that we're covering through tuition.

So, we have seen frankly a divestment of in higher education by the State and that is shifting a greater portion of the burden for higher education to tuition dollars and as well as to dollars that come from our supporters, our donors, our alumni, others who contribute financially to the institution and yes we still have a large portion of dollars that come through the State from taxpayers that help to make, contribute to the education of this institution.

So, that's where I think we need to be thinking about this, a complex model that contributes to making education accessible, higher education accessible to individuals from the lowest income earning families and yes probably that means that families similar to mine are going to carry a larger portion of the burden as we contribute.

I got great kids and I'm proud that I've been able to support them in their educational journeys through and beyond college.

It's hard to talk about college affordability without also talking a little bit about enrollment trends.

Public two-year and public four-year schools are experiencing a downward trajectory in terms of So, is it hard to maintain affordability for BSU and Northwest Tech in that environment and what do you intend to do in order to ensure that it doesn't continue in that direction?

This is an important piece.

Enrollment is down slightly at Northwest Technical College, this fall.

It's down a little bit more at Bemidji State and that's concerning.

If the largest part of your budget comes from tuition dollars and enrollment is down, that makes it difficult for us to continue to provide the high quality education that we have done, we've done so historically, that's been so transformational for this community.

That being said, as we look to northern Minnesota, there's a vast population of individuals in northern Minnesota that do not have that post-secondary credential.

If you look at the population of Minnesota, for example, there are more folks who fall in the some or no college but no degree category than there are in the 15 to 25 year old population total So, we spend a lot of time talking about how do we recruit those individuals in that 15 to 25 year old range to college and of course we should be, that's critical and it's important for future growth but we need to also be mindful that there are a lot of folks who have some college but no degree or adults who could access a college degree to advance their families and if we start broadening the landscape to think about enrollment options for all of that population there are a lot of folks who could benefit from a higher education degree.

We need to do a better job of telling our story of educating northern Minnesota about the value of a college degree, about how accessible and affordable it is through NTC and at BSU and then how we support students who take, again sometimes some unique pathways.

Let me give you just one more piece on this.

So, within our incoming class this fall we're down by 22 percent among men.

We're seeing and the largest competition for us is not another college or university, it's no college.

We look at our transfer population, we're up 12 percent by men.

Part of the pattern that we're seeing is that more men are coming out of high school, entering the workforce but then finding their way back to college later, you know, a few years down the road.

We need to adapt so that we're creating those pathways to the degree that, okay so that's going to be your path?

How do we support you along the way and help you to be successful in your journey to a great career and great citizenship in our region?

So, you talked about messaging right?

Getting this message out to northern Minnesota about the value of a college degree in general and of course also the value of BSU or Northwest Tech.

Right.

How do you do that?

Well, so there's a number of tools that we need to be engaging in in terms of looking at our marketing and communications pieces.

One of the projects that we are beginning to engage in is a project that is working with the American Association of State Colleges and Universities and it's focused on telling our stories.

A few moments ago I said that the higher education landscape is diverse.

There are institutions out there that are charging $30,000 - $40,000 a year in tuition and where students are graduating with a hundred thousand dollars in debt or more.

That is concerning.

That's not Bemidji State.

It's also not America's State Colleges and Universities.

So, as we engage in this project, we are collaborating with institutions around the country to tell the story of how we are contributing in a unique space in higher education that is accessible and affordable and that's it's an important sector within the market.

An example that I shared with our cabinet at our retreat this summer, a video that was created at Cal State-Fullerton while I was there where several of the students and these were first generation college students and students of color, as they were graduating they reached out and asked their parents to write a letter to the student.

The students in the video opened up the envelope pulled out the letter and read the letter from their parents, parents who don't have a college degree, some parents who didn't understand why they would be heading to college and then telling them how proud they were.

As you can imagine there's a few tears.

I almost want to tear up now as I tell the story about this.

Bet that was powerful.

We have those stories at Bemidji State and Northwest Tech.

We've got more of them than we can possibly tell.

We just have to start channeling our energy to collecting those stories, telling them and sharing them with the region.

I think as folks start hearing some of those stories, they're going to start to understand why the higher ed landscape of NTC and BSU is such a special place.

So, I'm hearing storytelling is an important part of that messaging.

Yes.

So, does BSU and Northwest Tech, do those two institutions have a lot of post-secondary enrollment option students?

Yes.

And do many of those students become your students?

Yes.

And there's a yes and on this one and I'm really glad you're asking this because I worked on this project with Jeremy Olson our new Superintendent of Schools here in Bemidji back when we were both at Crookston four years ago, we kind of worked on this project together.

So, first thing enrollment in our post-secondary education courses is up both at Northwest Tech and at Bemidji State.

That's good news.

It's demonstrating that students in high school are interested in college courses and advancing to college.

That being said, this comes back to that question you asked about, you know, free or affordable higher education.

What we have seen is that many of the students who engage in these post-secondary education university courses, courses they complete for free while they're in college.

Many of those students come from our most well-to-do families, come from families where the parents have gone to college, students who are most likely already to go on to college somewhere and for some of these students because of the financial resources that their parents have, they're looking broadly across the full higher education sector.

Some of them can afford to go to some of these elite institutions.

Now I think we're pretty elite in our own way but that's a different question.

Jason: More Costly John: Yes.

What we did, what Jeremy Olson and I worked on while we're at Crookston was how do we extend greater access to those post-secondary enrollment option courses, PSEO courses in the high school to students who were first generation, from low-income families, some of the students of color in the community.

Those students when they access one the courses help them to recognize, yeah I'm college material.

I can go to college.

I can be successful in college.

They see themselves as college students.

They see themselves as contributing to the overall learning of the landscape but second those students are more likely when they go to college to stay local.

So, that's where a place where our investment in these post-secondary education courses which don't really bring a lot of revenue to BSU or NTC but they have value because it's about students first.

If we focus on taking doing the right thing for students and then try to figure out our finances things are going to work out.

If we're worried about our finances first and then students then higher education will become one of those professions I'm not going to name any profession but that doesn't have the best opinion in society.

So, that's the key.

Let me ask you this, you preside over two institutions, of course, BSU and Northwest Tech and again when looking at your background I actually didn't see a lot of experience in Technical Ed.

So, do you feel prepared to preside over Northwest Tech as well?

You know, when I was in California, let me give you two things.

First, when I was in California at Cal State-Fullerton, I directed a program in Community College Leadership.

A lot of those students were working at community and technical colleges.

That "technical only" phenomenon is not as common in California, but working with that doctoral program, worked with a lot of students who were at institutions with strong technical programs.

But I've never worked myself directly at a technical college.

Once again, this is going to come back.

It's not about me.

It's about we.

and so there's a lot that I have to learn yet from the faculty within our tech and trade division as well as all of our faculty at the two-year Institution.

Take it up to Bemidji State.

There's a lot I have to learn from faculty in Environmental Studies, you know, where you have some of your background because that's not what I studied along the way.

Well, speaking of which, I did want to ask you, among the 37 institutions that make up Minnesota State right, it's my understanding that BSU is the only one with a degree program in Environmental Studies and also separately in Sustainability Studies, yet ironically BSU sort of lags behind its peers in terms of the deployment of site-based renewable energy systems.

So, I'm curious what do you intend to do about that and is the school's carbon footprint something that's important to you?

It's very important to me and at a personal level, I've had a very heartfelt conversation with one of the my two kids about this who has a strong passion for the environment and sustainability.

This program is a great example of us not just being a regional comprehensive university at Bemidji State but being regionally comprehensive meaning that we're comprehensive in a way that is relevant to northern Minnesota and this question is particularly relevant in this location.

It's part of the reason it makes sense for students to come to our Environmental Studies program, related programs at the the university from all across the state and and honestly well beyond.

We do have work to do with our physical infrastructure on both of our campuses in terms of our goals to become carbon neutral and that's going to take some investments as we think about our work with fundraising campaigns as well as our work with the State.

We need to do a better job of lifting this up as a high level interest.

We only have time for a few more questions.

So, I'm curious when the Minnesota State Chancellor introduced you, he said specifically that he's interested in you or he's excited to see you cultivate an empowering ethos and I love that word ethos because it sort of captures something that's amorphous and hard to articulate.

So, what did that mean to you when you heard that briefly?

So and this is going to be a theme, you know, so in a couple weeks, October 14th.

I hope you can make it, we'll have the inauguration for the university.

A lot of folks sometimes think that the inauguration is about the president.

To me again if it's about me, we're going to fail.

If it is about we, if it's about us, we can be successful.

That's about empowerment and so as I look to my cabinet and I think about some of the colleagues I'm working with Alan Bedford, Provost, arguably one of the best strongest provosts in the entire system.

Travis Greene, doing work with Student Success, Student Life.

Carolyn Thorson an exciting new professional we have who's providing leadership for our enrollment management is going to help us to do some growth.

Stephen Parker in our Campus Diversity officer, Chrissy Downwind who works with our American Indian Resource Center and I apologize to the rest of the cabinet because it's an exciting cabinet that is doing great work.

If that Office of the President that includes all of those individuals that I just mentioned, you know, that cabinet if they're empowered to go do their work that creates space for me to do some things that are uniquely presidential that specific to the position not to the Office of the President.

The key for me and the opportunity for me is to position, that cabinet and then beyond them our faculty, our student affairs educators, our staff to do their best work and if I'm empowering them, helping to remove some of the roadblocks, this group of folks is going to do some exciting things.

So, Dr. Hoffman, very briefly.

When you're not changing the world as the President of BSU and Northwest Tech, how do you like to spend your time?

Well.

I mentioned it early in the interview, my wife, Joy, is my life's partner.

She is my "Joy."

And we just love spending time together.

We love doing this together.

We have enjoyed being in the community at athletics events, at art events in the community, eating out, and meeting folks in town.

Working to get to some of the ball games at the highschool.

We just like being connected in this space.

It is...

It is a remarkable community and a hidden gem.

And we're just kinda pinching ourselves about being able to be here.

And engage with the people of this community in this really important work.

Well, welcome to the community.

It's a real privilege to meet you and thank you for your time today.

Sure thing.

Thank you Jason.

I appreciate it.

And thank all of you for joining me once again.

I'm Jason Edens, your host of Lakeland Currents.

Please continue the conversation on Twitter.

Tweet me @currentsPBS.

Be kind and be well.

We'll see you all next week.