- [Becky] Sometimes life gives you an opportunity to reflect on what you would do with a clean slate.

Our guest on this episode is Megan Barry, former mayor of Nashville, businesswoman, consultant, adjunct professor and author.

♪ But I've thrown away my compass, done with the chart ♪ ♪ I'm tired of spinning around ♪ ♪ Looking for direction, a northern star ♪ ♪ I'm tired of spinning around ♪ ♪ I'll just step out, throw my doubt into the sea ♪ ♪ For what's meant to be will be ♪ - [Becky] In 2015, after a historic runoff election, Megan Barry became the first female mayor of Nashville, Tennessee.

- Congratulations, Mayor Barry.

- [Becky] Quickly becoming one of the most popular progressive politicians in the south, Megan was a beloved leader with a sky-high approval rating and an unshakable hope for a new, forward thinking and modern Nashville.

For her first few years in office, she was one of the most important voices at the table, until that time was marred by controversy.

While serving as mayor, she lost her only son, Max, to a drug overdose.

In 2018, she resigned from office after a painful public reckoning and the fall of the rising political star.

She has shared her story many times in magazines, podcasts, and as an invited speaker, including TEDx Nashville.

- There is power in having had your worst day.

You know, they say that there are five stages of grief, but no one promises you that you will get to that fifth stage with your soul intact.

But I think there is a way forward, and I want to talk about that today.

I want to talk about the burden of all of our countdown clocks and how we figure out a way to control them.

- Currently, Megan is passionate about delivering a message of hope and combating the shame and guilt that comes from substance use disorder.

Her forthcoming book, "It's What You Do Next", will be out in spring of 2024.

We visited with former Nashville Mayor Megan Barry in her home.

Well, Megan, thank you so much for allowing us this opportunity to be in your home.

- Thank you for coming by.

I appreciate you.

- It's full of just treasures, including your dog, Winslow.

- Yes, he's down there.

Let's just hope he stays.

- He's so great, but you know, of all the beautiful pictures and artwork, I think my favorite is the one of your son, Max.

- Thank you, I love it, too.

Well, you know, we had this thing as a family that we did that over time, every Christmas for our holiday card, we would have the same photographer come and take a black and white photo, and it was always these horrible days because nobody wanted to get photographed and everybody's crabby.

But at the end of the day, we ended up with these amazing pictures, and one of them is my favorite one of Max, and so I'm so grateful that we did that then.

- Absolutely.

You know, we share that.

I have a son, Max.

- Yes, I know.

- I know your son died tragically of addiction, but share that, it's a disease, and you share that.

- Absolutely.

Max was 22 when he passed away, and he died of an overdose, but Max had struggled with substance use disorder.

That was kind of a thing for our family that we never talked about, which is why now I specifically go out and spend a lot of time talking to families and groups to help lift the shame of substance use disorder to try to get people to talk about it.

Everybody has it in their family or we know somebody who has it, and so if we can just start talking about it and treat it like the disease it is, I think we'll save so many lives.

- Yeah, I think so, too.

You are a public servant.

That's why you got into politics.

We'll talk a little bit about that in a minute, but you know, that is that part that you're doing right now is really sharing and making a difference.

- I hope so.

- Yeah.

- It does seem to be just permeating our society.

I heard a statistic that Fentanyl is taking 18 to 45 year olds as the number one cause of death, so what can we do individually?

- Well, I think that there are things that we can do.

One thing that we can all do now in the state of Tennessee is we can all carry Narcan or Naloxone.

It's very easy.

I carry it in my purse.

That way if you ever come across somebody who's actually in the throes of overdosing, you can administer it to them and potentially save their life.

You buy time for the first responders to get there to assist them.

The other thing that we can all do is we can go into our own medicine cabinets and count the drugs that we have.

If you have drugs that you're using that are, ones that are a certain substance like hydrocodone, hydromorphone, Oxycontin, all those drugs, count them, know how many you actually have, and when you aren't using them, lock them up.

If you're not using them anymore, get rid of them.

You'd be shocked at how many folks access other people's medicine cabinets to find drugs when they can't find them.

- Sure, and they shouldn't just toss them, right?

- No, no, no, no, no.

When I say get rid of them, I don't mean flush them down the toilet.

There are all kinds of ways to do takebacks.

You can oftentimes go to CVS and the pharmacies, but also our Metro Police Department has drop boxes where you can get rid of unused prescriptions.

- That's great.

I just want to share with you what a fan I've always been.

I'm a native Tennesseean and I was so proud of you being elected mayor, but you served on the Metro Council before that.

You have an MBA from Vanderbilt, and you worked helping corporations with ethics.

- I did, yes, yes.

- I'm sure you're still doing a lot of that.

- I do have a lot of stuff that I still get to do, yeah.

- So tell me why you got into politics.

- Sure.

So I think the basic thing that I think you hear oftentimes when politicians start out but lose over time is that you actually want to help people.

You want to make a difference in people's lives.

I had a quote on my desk in the mayor's office that said, "Power is about waking up every day and making a difference in somebody else's life."

I got that chance when I sat in the mayor's seat, but you know what, you don't have to sit in any seat.

Every day you can get up and make a difference in somebody else's life.

- What are you most proud of in your time in office?

- Oh my goodness.

First of all, I was so proud of my team.

I had this amazing team, and they made so many amazing things in Nashville happen.

It's hard to list all the focuses that we had.

We had focus on housing and transit and education and safety, and each part of my team made inroads in each one of those, so it's hard to single one thing out, but I think the thing I'm most proud of is my team.

- I'm proud that you helped get the Nashville Soccer Club.

- Yeah, there's that.

That was a huge team, and I felt I was really lucky to be a part of it.

- When you left, you left in a time that you really didn't want to necessarily leave, right?

Can you share a little bit about that?

- Sure.

I think it's really important that when we do something wrong or something that we're not proud of, that we own it.

I tried to do that and then move on, and Nashville needed me to not be the face of Nashville with everything that was going on.

As much as it saddened me, I put myself in that position, I made my own choices, and I think that then I was able to go on and try to do other things.

It was obviously a really sad time, because I loved being the mayor of Nashville and I loved being able to help people.

- Will there be more politics in your future?

- Well, you know, I'm a democrat and I live in Tennessee, so I think it's a pretty long road to hoe, but one never knows.

We do have some senate races coming up, and it would be interesting to see how those might materialize.

But at the end of the day, politics are probably for the younger and the stronger.

I don't know.

- What are you most excited about what you're doing right now?

You've written a book.

- Yes, I am in the process of writing a book.

I have a book deal.

- Okay.

- I have to have the manuscript to the publisher by July first, so I'm still in process.

But with a memoir, you pretty much have to have it done before a publisher is gonna take it.

I've got lots of words, and now I just need lots more and then I'll have a manuscript in July.

I'm so excited about my book.

It's about the three things that I loved the most.

It's about Max, our son, it's about the job that I had as the mayor of Nashville, and it's about Bruce, my husband.

It's about the two things I lost, Max and my job, and the one thing I could save, and that was my marriage to Bruce.

So I hope it gives other people hope.

- How long have you guys been married?

- Oh gosh, 30 years.

- [Becky] Oh, really?

- [Megan] Yeah.

- [Becky] Oh, that's sweet.

- [Megan] I know, it is.

We've been through a lot together.

We actually met in Nashville a long time ago.

We both came here and I never intended to stay.

I'm not sure he did either, and so here we are.

- That's so great.

Well, lucky for us that you did stay.

It's a memoir, but it doesn't start like when you were born.

- That sounds, no, it does not.

- So it's a period of time.

- It is.

- Will people be shocked by the book?

Will they be inspired by the book?

- Well, I hope it's more on the inspiration side.

It starts in 2015, right when we decide that we're gonna undertake this huge endeavor to run for mayor, and then it ends after about two years after I've left office.

I'll tell you, my publisher's like, "Hey, listen.

If people think it's a shocker, tell them that, because then they'll buy it."

But it is not a tell-all.

It's trying to capture what I would say was the energy, the hope and the light of that election, of electing the first woman mayor of Nashville, and then it kind of goes into a dark place, but we come back out, right?

We come back into the light, and that's my hope for everybody.

- You know, what did you learn in that time period when you left office and of course you'd lost your son and you had gone through this difficult period and you were concentrating on your marriage, but what else did you have time for?

- Ah, well I tell you, I think the learning piece of that is you learn who, this sounds so kind of trite, but you really figure out who are your friends.

I don't mean that in that some people fall away, they just do naturally, but I was really given this amazing gift that I could walk into a space and I could only see the people who loved me.

I didn't see the other people, and there were plenty of those, but I couldn't see them.

The lucky thing was I had friends who were like, "Oh my gosh, did you?"

And I was like, "Nope, I didn't see it, didn't see it."

So that was something that I learned, and in politics you kind of have to learn that anyway.

But man, that skill deepened a lot after I left office.

- I bet.

One of the things that I was curious about is how you dealt just with grief.

How do you deal with grief?

- Grief, yeah, man.

Well, in some ways I didn't deal with it very well and so I made some bad choices.

I think when you are grief-stricken, and I think for some families, and I think this is important, a lot of people are very much like the minute Max died, okay, it's understandable that your world fell apart and became tumultuous.

But what happens in families when you have folks, kids, anybody struggling with substance use disorder, your life is already chaotic but we keep all of that behind our doors.

One of the things that I think I really hope with the book and with talking is to open those doors up and say, you know what, no family is perfect.

When you are struggling as a family, you need help and you need the people around you who love you to be there and support you.

- I listened to that Ty Herndon podcast you did, Soundboard, I believe.

It was such a great interview.

- He's great.

- In reference to that, you've shared that when Max, you were at the emergency room with Max at one point, and he was 21.

- He wouldn't sign that form.

- He wouldn't sign the form to say what was wrong with him.

- No, he wouldn't.

- And so you really could not react to that, and yet you shared if he had had cancer, if the doctor had come out and said your son has cancer.

- Oh my gosh, Max would have signed the form.

That night when we took Max to the emergency, well, Bruce was gone, he was out town.

I took him, and we were back in that room and the doctor just came out and said, "I can't tell you anything because Max won't sign the form."

And so Max's shame about his own substance use disorder, his own state, he was embarrassed, he was ashamed.

He didn't want his own mom to know what was going on, so no, he wouldn't sign that form.

I absolutely believe that if the doctor had said to him, "Honey, you know, you got cancer," Max would have been like, where's that form?

I'm signing, get my my mom in here.

We're gonna figure this out, and then I would have also had a different reaction, 'cause that night I came home and I didn't call anybody.

I didn't look for help in any way.

I didn't call Max's pediatrician or somebody that we would've reached out to.

I got online, I'm Googling.

Now, to put that in perspective, I'm the mayor.

I have access to resources, but I'm so embarrassed and ashamed that I don't even pick up the phone and call my mom.

You know, it's such an insidious, soul-sucking disease and we just need to get our arms around it to save lives.

- Absolutely, and thank you for that.

- Sure.

- The premise of this show is clean slate, and so what would you do with a clean slate?

- Well, I feel like I got one.

I mean, seriously, what a gift.

I think that as we go through life, we accumulate all kinds of junk with us as we move and we never actually think about cleaning everything out and getting a clean slate, and I was given that opportunity, maybe not because I wanted it, but because it was something that I was given, and so what do you do with a clean slate?

Well, you figure out the stuff that you loved to do.

You get rid of the stuff that didn't work so well for you.

And what an amazing opportunity to do that.

For me, my reinvention or my clean slate has been to focus a lot of energy and effort on talking about substance use disorder, but also to write a book and also to spend time with my husband and family and friends, and just to get this new lease on life.

But also to try to say how can I continue to still give back to Nashville, because that was my heart.

I love it when I still go to the grocery store and people are like, "Oh my gosh, can I talk to you about some problem I'm having?"

In fact, I was there yesterday and I was like, "Oh, well you know what?

I still know who and so and so and so, so let me connect you with them.

Hopefully we can solve your problem."

Because that was the stuff I loved the most, so I still get to do that in my clean slate.

- Oh, that's so good.

What do you think about Nashville now?

Nashville has changed a lot.

It's been a few years since you were mayor.

If you thought about three things that maybe you would do if you were mayor today, or any elected official for that matter, what are those three things?

- Well, they haven't really changed.

They've just gotten worse.

One of the things that I wish we would really try to address is transit and traffic.

I think we haven't stopped hearing about it.

I also would tell you that housing hasn't gotten any better.

Being able to live here, afford to live here, either if you're middle, lower income definitely doesn't happen.

Our folks who are unhoused, that has ratcheted way up.

And also we're seeing, going back to overdoses, we've seen dramatic increases in Davidson County in overdoses.

There's so much to do, but I think those are the three things I would love to see more attention, transit, housing and public health and safety.

- Right.

Your home is filled with really beautiful art by Nashville artists.

- Yeah, yeah.

That was always important.

It has been always been important to me.

- Something that I really admire about you is you're a connector of people, and you see people, you see people of all walks, and when you're with you and your eclectic group of friends, it reflects a Nashville that I love being in.

- [Megan] Aw.

- Well, it's true.

- Thank you, I think so, too.

Nashville has got amazing people in it.

- It really does, but it's very diverse.

There are all kinds of people.

So what is that about you that you connect so deeply?

- I think that you'd probably have to ask somebody who I connect with, but I would say that there's a part I think that comes from having been in office that is empathetic.

I actually see the struggles that people have in Nashville.

Everybody has struggles, but I also get to talk to all these folks who cross, as you said, all kinds of lines and parts of Nashville because I see what they do.

Like the artist, the musician, the person who's head of NPT.

I get to be the beneficiary of knowing folks like you and then making sure that you know this person and this person and this person, because that's what makes a great community, and that is what I love about Nashville, is our community.

- And you do that, because I swear I think I was here at NPT one month and I ran into you.

I didn't even have business cards yet.

I wrote my name on a napkin and said, "Hey, I'd really like to talk with you sometime."

And I mean, within a nanosecond you reached out to me and said, "Hey, come over and let's have coffee, and then we'll talk about other folks that you need to meet."

- Yeah, exactly, because you have a position where you can elevate voices.

How wonderful to know whose voices you should be elevating and how lucky that I get to potentially meet and give you some folks that might be folks you'd like to talk to.

- Oh, I love it.

Who's really on your list right now of people that you think this is a rising star in Nashville and people should know this person?

- There's lots of folks out there that are young and upcoming.

There's one guy who I just adore.

He was part of Fort Houston, now thinking about maybe running for office.

His name is Big Fella Willie Sims.

He recently went on the board over at Thistle Farms.

He's got a huge amazing heart for service.

But you know, Big Fella gets the community.

He did the Juneteenth celebration last year and several years, and he's a guy in Nashville who I see great things for.

- No, I do too.

I love him.

He's got that cooking show, too.

- That's why I like him so much, because he's got so many irons in the fire, and they're all very creative.

- Yeah, absolutely.

What's a normal night like for you and Bruce?

Tell me what you like to do.

- Sure, we love to cook, or let me rephrase that.

I love to cook, so I cook.

Bruce will talk to me while I cook and we'll find like crazy things from the New York Times from the week, like "Dear Amy", or from whatever.

He'll read me the advice columns and we spend time going back and forth on that.

Then we usually watch something on NPT.

So that would be a perfect evening.

- If you don't mind me asking, I know you had an affair and it was public, and how did you deal with that?

How did you as a couple deal with that?

- We had to deal with it, and I think one of the things that I remember Bruce saying at the time, which is so true, I had to tell him, and he said, "Well, you know, I'm sad and I'm shocked, but I'm not surprised because we were in the same marriage."

We both knew things weren't good, and so what we've been able to do though is to take that knowing of not being good and build back and make sure that we were building those blocks of communication and trust and everything that goes with that, and it's little stuff.

He brings me coffee every morning, and it's the best thing, and it tastes the best because somebody else made it.

We learned how to say thank you and please, and I appreciate you, and then when you kind of keep that ball rolling of gratitude and kindness, it goes so far.

I mean, I didn't really think that that could help us.

You know, you've got this broken marriage and saying please and thank you is somehow gonna fix it.

Well, that doesn't totally fix it, but man, just being grateful for each other and being kind to each other goes a long way.

- [Becky] It does go a long way.

- [Megan] It does.

- [Becky] Do people reach out to you about that?

Do they need help on their own and they know you're someone they can trust?

- I hope so.

I mean, I hear a lot from different folks in different situations, because I think they understand that I have a sympathetic ear and I have a knowing.

I can relate, and I think that that is helpful when you're struggling in a situation, be it marital troubles, be it a child in trouble and a career in shambles.

Sadly, I have a whole repertoire of things that I can choose from, but all in a good way, because again, that clean slate gives you the ability to help others.

- Yeah, it really does, and it really gives you a chance to be reflective.

- Yeah, absolutely.

- In just the few moments we have left, because we're getting close to that magic moment, and I'm sad about it.

- Me too, because this has been lots of fun.

- It has been a lot of fun.

What do you think your next three years will look like?

- I think that my hope in the next three years is that this book will be one that is widely read in ways that gives me the opportunity to continue to reach people and that I can go out.

Part of the proceeds that will come from that book, we have a thing that we set up after Max died at the Oasis Center here in Nashville, and we were really focused on not wanting to just focus on Max's death.

We wanted to focus on his life, so this component over at the Oasis Center is all about travel for youth, and it's a travel fund.

We've had a couple that have already come through it.

Basically you apply.

The barrier is very low.

You apply for some funds, and it's for kids to go do something that they wouldn't have been able to do without the funding.

Last year there was a group of kids that wanted to do an outdoor bike trip.

It was mountain biking and stuff, and they were in competition.

These are kids that are underserved in our community that would never have access to these opportunities.

Max loved to travel, and I think that travel opens your mind.

Lots of the proceeds of the book will go to that to help kids.

I mean, my hope is that we can just continue Max's legacy of making a difference.

- [Becky] In just the minute that we have, tell me more about Max.

- Max, oh, my sweet boy.

I wear this on my neck.

It's an M, and then it's Max's birthday, not that I need a reminder, but I keep it close to my heart.

He was a great kid.

You're a mom.

You probably think your kids are great too, right?

I mean, we all think our kids are great.

And he was, he was really special.

Had a great big heart and just loved to connect.

He was actually a connector as well.

In so many ways now, I am the beneficiary because random humans will come up to me in places and say, "I knew Max," and then they'll tell me a Max story.

So, hey, if you knew Max and you got a Max story, don't ever hesitate to reach out and let me know.

- I love that.

Thank you so much.

- Oh, Becky, thank you for asking all these great questions.

- You're the best.

- Thanks.

♪ I've thrown away my compass, done with the chart ♪ ♪ I'm tired of spinning around in one direction ♪ - I will ask you one thing.

- Sure.

- What's your favorite thing to cook?

- My favorite thing to cook is anything in a Dutch oven, and it has to be one pot.

I hate multiple pots.

I mean, that makes me not a very good cook because I'm really more focused on the implement as opposed to the recipe.

- I love it.

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