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- The pressure on the Memphis-Shelby County School Board tonight on "Behind the Headlines."

[spirited music] I'm Eric Barnes of The Daily Memphian.

Thanks for joining us.

I am joined tonight by two members of the Memphis-Shelby County Board of Education.

Natalie McKinney, thank you for being here again.

- Thank you for the invite.

- Michelle McKissack, thank you for being here again.

- Glad to be here.

- Along with Laura Testino from The Daily Memphian.

We'll talk through as much as we can today.

There's a lot of news around the school system, a lot of news specific to the board.

We had two members of the state legislature on the show now two weeks ago, Brent Taylor and Mark White.

And they are leaders of an effort to start a takeover of the Memphis-Shelby County School Board and to really limit the power in some form or fashion.

They almost got it done the last session.

They're gonna bring it back up again.

People can see that episode online.

They also started a forensic audit of the school system.

The county commission, just last night as we taped this, passed a preliminary committee vote that would shorten the terms of the school board members.

And the former superintendent in, you know, news that I think anybody watches this show followed, is suing the system to get her job back, to get some severance money in some form or fashion.

And that's the second superintendent in a row that left in unwanted, I think from everyone's point of view, circumstances in the sense that they were hired and then either compelled to resign or fired in the case of Marie Feagins.

Where do you wanna start in terms of how you guys grade yourself as a board and where you go from here?

Who want... Natalie first?

- I first wanna say that, yes to all of that.

All of those things are happening.

When you talk about grading ourselves, I think that...

I've been on the board for, what, nine months or so, and this machination of the board, I think, is doing the work that it was designed to do.

So I would say we're doing what we need to do, and sometimes it's not easy, but yet it still needs to be done.

So I would say we're doing the work that we are charged with by statute and by our constituents.

- No regrets over the last nine months?

- No.

- Michelle, you've been on the board how long now?

- I've served since 2018.

I'm in my second term.

- Yeah.

How do you grade yourselves as a board and yourself, I guess, if you want to go there as a board member?

[Michelle laughs] - As a board member, I'm gonna give myself an A because I show up, and I've been showing up for the last seven years and just doing it for the community, for the children.

As a school board, there's always room for improvement.

I'm hesitant to actually give a letter grade, like the state gives letter grades to our schools, because it doesn't tell the whole story.

And I'll just leave it at that.

There's room for improvement, and some things I'm really proud of and some things that I'm not.

- Well, before I go to Laura, regrets over the last year, regrets over the Feagins situation, regrets about how...

I mean, it's not a situation y'all wanted to be in.

- No.

Without question, I think no one wanted to be here.

I certainly didn't wanna be at this point.

I thought we had a superintendent who I was a part of bringing on to this administration, and I would've loved to have seen her have more time to show what she could do or could not do instead of the very short tenure that she was there.

- And one more for me.

And does that decision in hindsight make you think, "Well, maybe there's reason for the state to do some sort of takeover, some sort of more control"?

- I do not believe that it justifies at all the state coming in to take over the largest school district in the state.

That's very problematic.

And we can talk more about that, but no.

- Okay, let's bring Laura in.

- Sure.

Just to kind of continue to discuss some of the churn that I think has caused some continuity struggles for the district, including for the board, one of those things is that the district has not really had an academic plan or strategic plan that, you know, is being regularly updated with kind of clear goals that are communicated to the community, communicated to parents.

Where should the board accountability fall for that over the last, let's say, you know, five years?

With that churn, you know, where do you take accountability on communicating or not what the academic goals are?

Michelle, we can start with you.

- It has been a very tumultuous period and one that I am certainly exhausted by.

And so it's frustrating because I ran to serve on this board for the very reason she stated, so that we can clearly, you know, speak to what academic plan is, how we're gonna move forward as a district to help our students grow.

And the last year plus has been a distraction on that, but I think we are at a point right now where we can focus on that.

I'm fresh back from a Tennessee School Board Association conference where we're just talking about strategic plans.

We have meetings coming up where the board, we're going to address that and look at what can we do to move forward academically as a district.

- So having just run last year in August, that was one of my platforms, which is that we hadn't had a clear academic plan in 10 years.

So I was very excited to get the position and was very excited to work with the then administration to get that going.

And that was stalled by some of the things that occurred this past year with the former superintendent.

However, what I am extremely excited about is that our current superintendent, Dr. Rod Richmond, is doing everything we've asked him to do.

We've asked him in February, I think it was.

In February, we had a board retreat.

We asked them to do three very specific things.

One of those things is to bring us a plan, an academic plan.

The other thing we asked them to do is to begin to work on a facilities plan, which we are in the process of bringing together that facility its ad hoc committee.

And we asked them to be clear about accountability.

So if you've been paying attention to the board meetings, we've been talking about how are you aligning all of these contracts, all the money that we're spending and all of the programs to our three strategic priorities that we currently have.

And like Board Member McKissack said, we are on the path of getting to our new goals since Destination 25 is here.

[Natalie laughs] And so we need to look at what our new goals need to be and how we need to strategize to get to those.

- And, you know, Eric has talked about what the county commission is planning to vote on, which would implement something that was passed at the state legislature this year, aligning all of your terms this upcoming summer.

Which certainly could throw, you know, more change into a board that is, you know, as you were describing, trying to stabilize.

Board Member McKinney, since your term would be cut short, would you launch a legal challenge if the county commission were to approve this?

- I think it's something that all the board itself would have to think about.

But I'll tell you what the challenges are, that there are very clear constitutional challenges.

On its face due, if you look at the constitution, the state constitution Article XI Section 9, it clearly states that by its terms, it has to state that if you're going, you have to have a two thirds vote or have a voter referendum.

That does not do that.

It also clearly abridges term limits, it clearly abridges elected terms, which it clearly says you cannot do.

It also, it serves...

I think it's also just discriminatory, arbitrary and capricious in that it is only talking about Shelby County.

We had two of our state representatives who sponsored it, and I'm asking the question why isn't it applicable to the "munics".

So... - Sure.

And Board Member McKissack, this wouldn't abridge your term.

Would you support a legal challenge if the school district or any of your board colleagues were to launch one?

- I would be supportive of that.

Because as my colleague mentioned, this needs to be applied not just to Memphis-Shelby County Schools, municipal school districts, and possibly even across the state, because it's not something that is unique to us.

We've had some challenges that have been very public, perhaps at other school board members, but we're also the largest board district.

And that's why the spotlight is on us.

But to say that we're gonna make this drastic change, and it only applies to this school district, that's not right.

- And if I might interject around the discriminatory piece of it, I need us to also not put our head in the sand.

We're a predominantly Black female board, and none of the other boards look like that in this particular county.

So I have some concerns about why, particularly about the way we were referred to by our state colleague.

- In the show two weeks ago, and again, people can get the video or the audio at Daily Memphian at WKNO.

You can get it as a podcast where you get your podcast and listen to that.

They were harsh on you both.

I mean, and, you know, some would say were ugly about it.

Obviously you're saying that's not deserved, but they also brought up TCAP scores.

And TCAP scores being in Memphis-Shelby County schools, the old Memphis City schools being historically the lowest or some of the lowest in the state.

They were up this year, and we talked a lot about it.

And Laura had good data on that, and people should watch that conversation and follow what she's been writing in Daily Memphian on this.

But your...

I guess I'll go to you first, Michelle.

Your response to the low, up from where they were, but still very low TCAP scores is what?

- We are an extremely poverty-stricken city, and that comes into our school doors.

And so when you take that, plus we are still rebounding from COVID.

And all of that has an impact on it.

You cannot operate in isolation saying that, "Oh, they're not educating our children."

That's just simply not the case at all.

It's like our children are coming to us with a lot of challenges that we have to deal with.

Before we even get to educating them, we gotta make sure they're fed, we gotta make sure they have coats in the winter time.

I've actually been to homes where I went to go deliver a new laptop and supplies.

They didn't even have power.

I had to get on the phone to call to get their power turned back on with MLGW.

So it's all these factors that's not being taken into consideration.

I know that our district educates our children.

I've got four children in the district myself.

When children have everything that they need, they're going to do well.

My children do well, and that's the case for so many others.

- Thoughts on the TCAP scores and the criticism?

- Again, I think if you look at our trajectory over the past four years, we have been increasing.

But maybe not at the rate that people wanna see, but to Board Member McKissack's point, we can only do what we can do when the student walks through our doors.

- Yeah.

- So we can't keep ignoring the fact that there are outside factors like poverty.

- You mentioned something we went past real quickly.

The current interim superintendent, Roderick Richmond, who was put in place after Marie Feagins was terminated.

Is he the interim and are you guys going to do a superintendent search?

- So I've had that question asked of me, and I think when we appointed him, what we did say is that our intent was to appoint him for 18 months for him to stabilize the district.

And let's just be... And that we would come back after we got to a point, at least I think after the school year starts, and evaluate what direction we need to go in.

And I think that's what we'll need to do.

- And for the search that brought Marie Feagins here was what, two years?

It kind of fits and starts.

It came on the back of Joris Ray, you know, resigning but being pushed out amid a whole lot of accusations.

It was a pretty bad situation.

Do you think...

I mean, is the school system gonna go into a search at the end of this 18 months?

Do you know?

What's your preference?

- It's something for us to evaluate.

It's a very big position, and I think it's something that may warrant having a search.

But at the same time, we have to be there when we get there.

And so Dr. Richmond, he's in this position right now.

I do believe our school district needs some stabilization.

I didn't want us to be here at this moment, but I believe in the value of having a superintendent who is being responsive to the board and to bring that stabilization for our community.

- One more thing.

And before I go to Laura, I forget, are you termed out next year or are you eligible to run again?

Are there term limits on school boards?

- There are no term limits currently on school boards.

- You mentioned you're tired.

Have you made a decision about running again?

- Oh, you're asking all the good questions, aren't you?

- We have to.

- This seat is up for reelection come 2026.

I'm still weighing all of my options.

- Okay.

I wanna go back to the thing I've mentioned on the show before this is inside, or maybe people have forgotten.

When Joris Ray, the former superintendent before Marie Feagins, was removed, and you were on the board at that time, president or head of the board at some portion in there, the findings were never released.

And so when I sit here as... - And I don't think the investigation ever continued, right?

- The investigation stopped, the findings weren't released.

He resigned.

He was paid, you know, $400,000 to $500,000.

It frustrated a ton of people that, under the accusations that were there, that he would get that kind of payout.

And what exactly did the investigation find and why would that not be made public?

- I can't tell you what the investigation would find because it didn't reach that point.

We did not have anything to report out.

There was nothing to share.

I never saw anything personally.

And it was that recommendation among all legal counsel involved from the administration to the personal legal counsel to move forward as the board did.

- But isn't that part of what frustrates people about the board?

And now striking out twice on two different superintendents, is there's this kind of a lot of noise.

And then in the case of Marie Feagins, a lot of really public meetings.

And, you guys, they were videoed, and that's good.

That's transparent.

But even then, as somebody falls this pretty closely, I wasn't entirely sure why Marie Feagins was fired.

There's the lack of clarity on these two decisions I think does give people, I hear from it.

And I guess as a taxpayer, I feel some of it personally.

Like, it just seems like why are these decisions being made?

Can't it be more transparent, more clear?

And again, for me, and a lot of people I've heard from, it started with the Joris Ray decision.

'Cause the investigation wasn't completed, spent a lot of money, board members apparently didn't even see the findings, and yet he was paid $500,000 amid accusations that were not good.

- At that time, first of all, the contract was very akin to what previous superintendents had had.

So it wasn't anything out of the ordinary.

As far as urban super superintendents, there a very short timeline in which they serve.

It's a very hard, hard job.

And so this happens all across the country, like I said, not unique to this district.

And Dr. Ray made the choice that he wanted to step aside, and that was what was accepted by the attorneys.

- Any response to that?

- And that was in the contract.

I think you alluded to that.

- Yes.

- So we were following the contract.

And in both instances, we were following the contract.

And so... And the contract is clear.

If it's something that mutually, which is what happened in your case, you can do a negotiation.

For cause, it's for cause.

You are fired, you are terminated, and you don't get any money for that.

So I think what we want people to understand is, what we said.

I was very clear in my statement that I both released to the press and also that I read onto the record on January 14th.

My reasons, in addition to the reasons stated in the the resolution, which I know people had concerns about that.

But if you really look at it, and that's me, how I look at it, the crux of that was that Dr. Feagins had a problem with misrepresentation and not accurately depicting the truth.

And that is a problem.

When you are employee of a non-member board, we have to be able to trust you.

And there were things that we could not trust.

And there were also just some things around our academics, our operations that I think I clearly outlined in that January 14th statement.

- Well, you know, I gotta jump in there and push back a little bit on that because I- - 'Cause you did not... You did not vote to remove Marie Feagins.

- No, I did not.

- Yeah.

- And I believe that she was doing what she came to do, what the previous body had hired her to do, and she was on track.

She just didn't get enough time to even begin to implement anything, really.

And so four months before, when this new board came on, and things started to change.

So it was just, what happened then, I'm at a point now where I'm like, "How do we just move forward?"

I can't continue to look back at the should've, would've, could'ves, and just saying, "What can we do now to move forward as a district to take the information that we have to try to help children?"

That's what it's all about.

- Exactly.

- Laura.

- One of, and I should make two clarifications.

I think that the state law that would change your board seats also applies to Knox County, but Knox County has already synced those elections up, just for our viewers to know.

And also the county commission, through its resolution supporting that state law, would add term limits, but those do not yet apply to your seats.

One of the other things that this board is trying to tackle right now, in addition to moving forward the strategic plan, is facilities.

So many people have questions about this.

We've reported about the Bureau Veritas reports that the district had put together that shows at least $1.4 billion of deferred maintenance over the next 10 years.

And this is just something that hasn't, you know, had a really strong plan in the last several years.

There's a resolution co-sponsored by you, Board Member McKinney, to bring a plan, or for Interim Superintendent Richmond to bring a plan to the board by September 1st.

Is that still your expectation?

I'll start with that.

- So, I will say this on the record, we got a little behind, the board did, in making sure that we had all of the right people onto that facilities ad hoc committee.

So we will be meeting for the first time on August 13th, and then we will make a decision.

We'll bring the full board whether we would recommend pushing it back a little bit so that we have a robust plan that we've actually given some time to, giving folks time to actually take part in and discuss.

So that may not be September 1st, but the idea is that it will be done no later probably than October.

Because according to our policy, if we're gonna start closing, we gotta start that process in November.

- And I guess to clarify that, and I'd like to hear from both of you on this, what you expect the administration to bring to this process and what you expect the committee to bring.

Is this a situation where you would like to bring a plan from the administration for this committee to weigh in on and kind of fill out a little bit?

From these two pieces of information, whatever the committee puts together and whatever Interim Superintendent Richmond's team brings, talk to me about how you will use both of those things to make a decision about what the final plan should be.

- And it is the board that will make that final plan.

And I see it as taking what the administration, what Dr. Richmond brings, and then input from our community stakeholders.

I mean, we're all in this together.

And this is a process.

For me, when I was first elected in 2018 and there was talk about a facilities plan, at that time, that facilities plan was just looking at buildings alone and closing certain buildings.

But we needed to look at the whole picture of like looking at academics and what was needed in various parts of the city to make sure that we are serving and giving the best to all of our students.

So that's what's important to me.

It's not just about closing buildings with low student enrollments.

Like, what are we offering our students across the district?

So that's what I'll be looking for when we start having these facilities conversations.

- And I think if you look at the makeup of the committee, you'll see that we're also taking into account what's the planning that's gonna happen around the city and the county so that we can, if we're thinking about closing, consolidating, or building or repurposing, what does that look like?

And we can't do that in a vacuum.

So we absolutely need the right stakeholders around the table, and I think we have that.

And also what will be included is community at large.

So this is just...

This is a committee that is helping us to think through all of those things.

Again, if you look at the folks that are on there and the type of expertise that they have, that we're looking at this holistically.

- And I wanna get one follow up in there really quickly, which is just, this is a lot of money, right?

We might talk about wanting to do more things, build things out, repurpose things, all of that costs money.

Whereas closing schools is generally presented as a cost savings measure.

There's all kinds of budgetary constraints that the county right now that's looking at potentially building a new jail, building a new hospital.

And then we have federal funding uncertainty from changes that the Trump administration has brought.

Do you think it is fair for the community to have the expectation that there is going to be new buildings and repurposing or should they be more prepared to anticipate that the first parts of this plan might be many closures?

- All of the above, Laura.

Because I'm gonna say this, a budget...

Anyone's budget shows what your morals and your values and how you prioritize things.

So we have to decide what we wanna prioritize as a community.

And so I think that will be part of the discussion that we have to have with the county.

- Briefly to Michelle 'Cause we're just a couple minutes left here.

Sorry to cut you off.

- Well, yeah, and it is a tough conversation.

There are going to have to be schools that are closed.

That just needs to be said, right?

And I think at the beginning, for people to know that going in, that is something that we have to face as a community.

- With a couple, I mentioned at the top this forensic audit.

The legislature did not get the full takeover done.

Laura's written about the details about that.

We did the show two weeks ago, so I won't go into those details.

But it would very much curtail if you haven't been following the power and authority of the local school board here.

But the audit.

Do you think that will be a fair and objective audit or do you feel like it's going to be what people call a witch hunt and that it goes in with bias?

- I think that, I hope that it will be fair.

And, you know, who knows what they'll find?

I don't think they'll find anything.

We've been doing audits for years with an outside party coming in.

So I don't know what they're looking for, but I don't think they'll find anything.

- So, again, I hope it's fair, reasonable, and objective.

I don't know because I don't know what the extent of it is.

I don't know who's doing it.

I really don't know when they're going to get started.

But what I do know is what I heard two weeks ago is that they're anticipating very happily and gleefully that they're going to find something.

And so in my mind, it's probably the latter of the two.

- And the audit will be, Laura can correct me, it'll be done by an outside party, but it's being run through the Comptroller's Office, the State Comptroller's Office.

- Comptroller's Office, yes.

- Yeah.

- And really quickly- - Yeah.

- I'm open to it 'cause we don't have anything to hide.

We just want to know that it's fair, reasonable, and objective.

- Another thing happened this week, we do a whole show on this, and we probably will try to, is that the contract for pre-K, the Federal Head Start Program, a $30 million a year contract, went back to Porter-Leath and was taken away from the Memphis-Shelby County Schools.

Do you support that decision?

- Well, the decision is made.

And so if you keep focused on what you're supposed to keep focused on, which is the children, whomever's running it, then we need to be supporting each other.

- Okay.

And Porter-Leath is coming on the show.

From your point of view, I mean, and part of the reason the schools lost it was because of accusations, I mean, findings that there was physical kicking and jerking kids around.

I mean, really awful stuff.

- And just to add that, that happened over the last, I think, five years.

- Five years, right?

- Yeah.

- So when I first came on the board, I talked about that, and I asked that we have A, B, and C a way out plan.

And I think Dr. Richmond is going to present some alternatives, and part of that will be how do we partner with Porter-Leath?

'Cause, ultimately, those students are gonna come into our system.

- It's about 3,000 students, a $30 million contract from the federal government.

We could talk about so much more.

Thank you very much for being here and talking through all these things.

Thank you, Laura.

Porter-Leath will be on along with [indistinct].

I think it's in August.

Next week, week we've got a show on affordable housing.

We've got MLGW coming up with Doug McGowen and Ursula Madden, and then also Chandell Ryan, the head of Downtown Memphis Commission.

That's all in coming weeks.

If you missed any of this episode or past episodes, you can go to wkno.org, YouTube, Daily Memphian, to get the video.

Or you can download the full podcast, it's called a podcast, Eric, the podcast of the show wherever you get your podcast.

Thanks very much.

We'll see you next week.

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