SPECIAL PRESENTATION ON PUBLIC SAFETY POLICING AND QUALITY OF LIFE.

IN NEW YORK CITY AS IN MANY CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY CRIME IS ON THE RISE, INNOCENT PEOPLE ARE BEING SHOT AND KILLED WITH TROUBLING REGULARITY.

TO ADDRESS THIS, MAYOR ERIC ADAMS RECENTLY IMPLEMENTED CONTROVERSIAL POLICIES THAT SEEMED UNTHINKABLE JUST A SHORT TIME AGO, FIRST, THE MAYOR REVIEFLD THE NYPD'S NOTORIOUS ANTI-GUN UNIT, THEN HE ANNOUNCED A CRACKDOWN ON QUALITY OF LIFE OFFENSES, A MOVE THAT CRITICS IMMEDIATELY TAGGED AS A RETURN TO THE BROKEN WINDOWS ERA OF THE 1990s, BUT IS BROKEN WINDOWS REALLY BACK AND SHOULD IT BE?

OVER THE NEXT TWO NIGHTS WE WILL SHARE WITH YOU TWO VISIONS OF PUBLIC SAFETY IN THE COSTCO INDIVIDUAL ERA, FIRST ONE BASED ON REFORM AND ASKING POLICE TO DO LESS NOT MORE.

TOMORROW NIGHT WE WILL HEAR FROM SOMEONE WHO BELIEVES BROKEN WINDOWS IS NECESSARY AND THAT POLICE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH.

SO WITH THE CITY SEEMINGLY AT A CROSSROADS THE QUESTION IS WHICH VISION WILL WIN OUT AND IS THERE PERHAPS SOME COMMON GROUND?

A SPECIAL EDITION OF "METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ ♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION AND BY -- >>> THE COUNTRY IS ON FIRE AND THEIR ANGER IS DIRECTED AT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

>> A NATIONAL OUTCRY AND ONE POLICE FORCE TRYING TO CHANGE.

>> CAN THIS BE DONE IN A WAY THAT STILL RESPECTS PEOPLE'S RIGHTS?

>> NEW YORKER WRITER JELANI COBB INVESTIGATES.

>> THE WAR ON OUR POLICE MUST END.

>> WHAT PEOPLE REALLY WANT IS THEY DON'T WANT TO BE MURDERED RUNNING FROM A TRAFFIC STOP OR BECAUSE OF A $20 BILL.

THEY DON'T WANT TO BE MURDERED.

♪♪ >> WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I AM JACK FORD.

FROM MINNESOTA TO ROCHESTER THE ISSUE OF RACE AND POLICING AMERICA HAS TAKEN ON A RENEWED URGENCY.

QUESTIONS IN MANY PEOPLE'S MINDS INCLUDE DO POLICE DEPARTMENTS NEED TO BE REFORMED?

INDEED, CAN POLICE DEPARTMENTS BE REFORMED?

AND IF SO, JUST HOW?

IN 2016 FRONT LINE A HISTORIAN JELANI COBB TRAVELED TO NEWARK, NEW JERSEY, TO TAKE A CLOSE LOOK AT EFFORTS TO CHANGE ITS TRUCKED POLICE DEPARTMENT.

NOW IN THE WAKE OF NATIONAL PROTESTS OVER POLICE BRUTALITY FRONT LINE AND JELANI COBB HAVE RETURNED TO NEWARK TO SEE WHAT'S CHANGED AND IF ANYTHING CAN BE LEARNED FROM THEIR EXPERIENCES THERE.

JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE RESULTING DOCUMENTARY TITLED "POLICING THE POLICE 2020" AND AS PART OF OUR CHASING THE DREAM INITIATIVE ON POVERTY AND OPPORTUNITY IN AMERICA, WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE HISTORIAN AND NEW YORKER WRITER JELANI COBB BACK WITH US.

WELCOME.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO LET ME START OFF WITH WHY ORIGINALLY YOU WENT TO NEWARK.

I MENTIONED IN THE INTRODUCTION THIS DOCUMENTARY YOU GO BACK, BUT JUST TO FRAME OUR CONVERSATION, GIVE US A QUICK UNDERSTANDING OF WHY ORIGINALLY YOU WENT TO NEWARK.

>> SO THERE WERE TWO THINGS, ONE IS THAT THIS WAS IN THE AFTERMATH OF FERGUSON AND THE NATIONAL CONVERSATION THAT WAS HAPPENING AROUND POLICING AND RACE THEN, ALTHOUGH NOT NEARLY, I THINK, TO THE DIMENSIONS OF THE CONVERSATION THAT WE'RE HAVING NOW ABOUT IT.

NEWARK HAS HISTORIC RESIDENTS.

IN 1967 FAMOUSLY WAS THE UPRISING IN THE CITY WHERE, YOU KNOW, OVER THE COURSE OF FOUR OR FIVE DAYS HUNDREDS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN DAMAGE WAS DONE AND IT WAS ALL SPARKED BY AN INCIDENT OF POLICE BRUTALITY AGAINST A BLACK CAB DRIVER BY THE NAME OF JOHN SMITH.

SO MAKE IT EVEN MORE CONTEMPORARY THE CITY OF NEWARK HAD JUST BEEN FOUND BY THE ERIC HOLDER DOJ TO HAVE A PATTERN OF VIOLATION OF PEOPLE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

SO ALL OF THOSE THINGS MADE NEWARK A REALLY FERTILE PLACE TO GO IF YOU WANTED TO HAVE THE CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT WAS HAPPENING WITH POLICING IN THE UNITED STATES.

>> SO YOU DECIDE TO GO BACK TO NEWARK TO SEE WHAT THEY HAVE DONE.

OBVIOUSLY WITH THE BACKDROP OF EVERYTHING THAT HAS BEEN TAKING PLACE MORE RECENTLY HERE.

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT A QUOTE THAT YOU USE EARLY ON IN THE DOCUMENTARY HERE.

YOU SAY THAT RACE IS SHORTHAND FOR A SET OF LIFE PROBABILITIES.

>> RIGHT.

>> WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY THAT?

>> SO I MEAN THAT WE KNOW THAT RACE DOESN'T EXIST AS A BIOLOGICAL CATEGORY, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST A CONVENIENT THING THAT WAS MADE UP BY PEOPLE, THAT WE COULD CATEGORIZE PEOPLE BASED ON SKIN PIGMENTATION WHICH IF YOU THINK ABOUT IT FOR MORE THAN A SECOND IT SOUNDS SILLY, BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THAT THIS NONSENSICAL CATEGORY HAS BEEN REAFIED AND MADE CONCRETE THROUGH THE INTERACTION OF AMERICAN INSTITUTIONS.

SO WE CAN LOOK AT A PERSON'S RACE AND HAVE A FAIR DEGREE OF UNDERSTANDING OF SOME THINGS IN TERMS OF PROBABILITIES, ABOUT EDUCATION, ABOUT INCOME, ABOUT LIFE EXPECTANCY, ABOUT INFANT MORTALITY, ABOUT LIFETIME INCOME, HOUSING.

ALL THE KINDS OF THINGS THAT ARE THE FORMATIVE INSTITUTIONS IN OUR LIVES.

AND WE SEE THAT THOSE THINGS HAVE SOME SORT OF A ROUGH CORRELATION TO RACE OR WHAT WE UNDERSTAND TO BE RACE IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> I WANT TO TALK WITH YOU ABOUT WHAT YOU FOUND IN TERMS OF THE ISSUES THAT ARE WOVEN THROUGHOUT THE CRISES WE'RE EXPERIENCING NOW IN TERMS OF POLICING AND EQUITABLE JUSTICE.

LET'S FOCUS NOW ON THE ISSUES, WHAT THEY ARE, WHERE THEY COME FROM.

AND ONE OF CERTAINLY ONE OF THE ISSUES THAT IS WOVEN THROUGHOUT ALL OF THESE CONVERSATIONS, AND YOU TALK ABOUT THEM IN THE DOCUMENTARY, IS THE HISTORICAL MISTRUST OF POLICE ON THE PART OF THE BLACK COMMUNITY.

>> YES.

>> TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> YEAH, SO ONE OF THE THINGS I THINK ABOUT THIS IS THAT THERE'S BEEN AN ARC OF PUBLIC UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THIS CONVERSATION ABOUT RACE AND DISTRUST OF THE POLICE HAS BEEN AND THAT'S BEEN FACILITATED BY THE EXISTENCE OF CELLPHONE CAMERAS.

PRIOR TO THIS PEOPLE LIVED IN TWO COMPLETELY DIFFERENT REALITIES, BUT WHEN WE LOOK AT THE MAJOR CONFLAGRATIONS IN AMERICAN CITIES IN THE 20th CENTURY, WHERE RACE IS A FACTOR, THEY ARE OVERWHELMINGLY CONNECTED TO INCIDENTS OF POLICE BRUTALITY.

THAT WAS WHAT HAPPENED IN HARLEM IN 1965, HARLEM IN 1935, IN DETROIT IN 1967, IN WATTS IN 1965.

YOU CAN JUST KIND OF RATTLE THEM ALL OFF, YOU KNOW, MIAMI IN 1980, YOU KNOW, EVEN GOING INTO THE 21st CENTURY, YOU KNOW, FERGUSON AND MINNESOTA AND THE WAVE OF VIOLENCE THAT WE SAW OVER THE COURSE OF THE SUMMER.

SO I THINK THAT WE HAVE A KIND OF HISTORIC BASIS FOR UNDERSTANDING POLICE THAT IS TO A LARGE DEGREE IMPACTED BY WHAT YOUR SKIN LOOKS LIKE AND FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS EVEN WHEN WE TALK ABOUT JIM CROW, THE POLICE WERE THE PEOPLE THAT ENFORCED JIM CROW.

SO IT'S HARD TO HAVE A CONCEPT OF THEM AS PUBLIC SERVANTS IF THEY ARE LITERALLY THE PEOPLE WHO ARE TELLING YOU THAT YOU CANNOT GO TO THIS SCHOOL, THAT YOU CANNOT DRINK FROM THIS FOUNTAIN AND SO ON.

>> ONCE AGAIN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT JELANI COBB A HISTORIAN AND NEW YORKER WRITER ABOUT THE NEW FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY TITLED "POLICING THE POLICE 2020."

AND YOU TALK ABOUT THE NOTION OF THE VISUAL ASPECTS OF SEEING POLICE INVOLVED WITH PEOPLE OF COLOR.

THE SELMA BRIDGE, IF YOU WOULD.

WE SAW THE POLICE WITH THEIR BATONS AND YOU TALKED ABOUT ALL THE OTHER SCENES.

RODNEY KING, PEOPLE DON'T REALIZE IF IT WASN'T FOR A NEIGHBOR WHO HAPPENED TO HAVE A CAMCORDER, ONE OF THOSE OLD BIG BOXES THAT YOU PUT ON YOUR SHOULDERS, WE WOULD KNOW NOTHING ABOUT RODNEY KING AND HE PROBABLY WOULD HAVE BEEN CONVICTED OF ASSAULTING POLICE OFFICERS AND THERE HAD NEVER BEEN A RODNEY KING CASE.

AS YOU MENTIONED, SO MUCH OF THIS NOW IS THE RESULT OF THE AVAILABILITY OF VIDEO.

>> RIGHT.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER ISSUES.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE TALK ABOUT AND YOU TALK ABOUT HERE IS THAT THE NOTION OF A LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

WHAT DO YOU MEAN WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE ABSENCE OF ACCOUNTABILITY OR THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY?

>> SO THERE ARE A LOT OF WAYS IN WHICH THIS PLAYS ITSELF OUT.

ONE IS ON THE LOCAL AND IMMEDIATE LEVEL.

SO IN NEWARK WE SAW THIS, YOU KNOW, VERY OFTEN THERE WOULD BE INSTANCES IN WHICH PEOPLE IN THE 2016 DOCUMENTARY PEOPLE COMMITTED ACTS OF VIOLENCE THAT WEREN'T CATALOGED AND WEREN'T RECORDED.

THERE WEREN'T REPORTS ABOUT WHAT THE POLICE HAD ACTUALLY DONE.

THEN IN OTHER INSTANCES THE MECHANISMS BY WHICH SOMEONE COULD MAKE A COMPLAINT TO INTERNAL AFFAIRS, EXTERNALLY OR FROM WITHIN THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ITSELF, WERE DIFFICULT AND NOT LIKELY TO CULMINATE IN ANY ACTUAL DISCIPLINARY ACTION BEING TAKEN.

BEYOND THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE THINGS LIKE QUALIFIED IMMUNITY THAT MAKE POLICE ESSENTIALLY INVULNERABLE -- >> TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE I KNOW -- AND I'M A FORMER PROSECUTOR, FORMER DEFENSE ATTORNEY.

I'VE PROSECUTED POLICE OFFICERS AND DEFENDED POLICE OFFICERS.

I KNOW PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND THAT NOTION OF QUALIFIED IMMUNITY.

THEY WILL SAY DO YOU MEAN POLICE CAN DO WHATEVER THEY WANT AND THERE ARE NO LEGAL REPERCUSSIONS?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> IT'S ESSENTIALLY A DOCTRINE THAT LOOKS AT THE NATURE OF POLICING AS BEING SUCH THAT WE'RE ASKING PEOPLE TO USE FORCE ON BEHALF OF THE SOCIETY AND THEY'RE IMMUNIZED FOR THE CONSEQUENCES OF IT AND THE WAY THAT OTHER PUBLIC SERVANTS WOULD NOT BE OR IT RAISES THE BAR FOR WHICH PEOPLE CAN BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE.

THERE'S BEEN A LOT -- AND THEN OTHER KINDS OF KIND OF LEGAL MECHANISMS OR, EXCUSE ME, EXTRA LEGAL MECHANISMS LIKE, YOU KNOW, WHAT THE POLICE UNIONS HAVE NEGOTIATED IN MANY CITIES WHEN AN OFFICER IS INVOLVED IN THE SHOOTING YOU HAVE 48 HOURS BEFORE YOU HAVE TO ACTUALLY SAY WHAT HAPPENED AND THAT'S CERTAINLY NOT A LUXURY THAT'S AFFORDED TO THE PEOPLE WHO ARE BEING ARRESTED FOR SHOOTINGS.

SO THERE'S A WAY IN WHICH ACCOUNTABILITY FOR POLICE LOOKS VERY DIFFERENT THAN IT WOULD FOR PEOPLE IN OTHER WALKS OF SOCIETY.

>> HOW ABOUT THE CULTURE OF POLICING?

AND, AGAIN, LOOK, PEOPLE HAVE SAID THIS BEFORE AND IT'S NOT AS IF THE MOVEMENTS, THE CURRENT MOVEMENTS, ARE TRYING TO CONDEMN ANYBODY WHO HAS EVER SERVED AS A POLICE OFFICER OR ANYBODY WHO IS CURRENTLY SERVING AS A POLICE OFFICER, BUT THE ISSUE HAS BECOME MORE THAN ARE WE JUST TALKING ABOUT A FEW BAD PEOPLE IN A PROFESSION?

UNDERSTANDING THAT ALL PROFESSIONS HAVE A FEW BAD PEOPLE.

OR IS THERE SOMETHING THAT'S MORE CULTURALLY EMBEDDED HERE?

YOU KNOW, FOR INSTANCE, YOU SAW WITH GEORGE FLOYD PEOPLE WHO USED TO THINK -- AND I INTERVIEWED SOME -- WHO USED TO THINK, OKAY, A FEW BAD PEOPLE, NOT EVERYBODY, BUT I KNOW THERE ARE FOLKS WHO WATCH THAT AND SAY, WAIT A MINUTE, MAYBE IT IS A CULTURE PROBLEM BECAUSE THREE OTHER OFFICERS JUST STANDING THERE.

>> RIGHT.

>> RELUCTANT TO DO ANYTHING.

DOES THAT SUGGEST MORE OF AN EMBEDDED CULTURAL PROBLEM HERE?

AND YET YOU'VE GOT THE COMPETING SIDE IS THIS, YOU'VE GOT THE POLICE OFFICER SAYING WE'RE THE ONES OUT THERE DOING THE JOB, YOU KNOW, IF YOU REMEMBER THE LINE JACK NICHOLSON'S LINE FROM "A FEW GOOD MEN" WHEN HE SAYS YOU WANT ME ON A LINE.

YOU NEED ME ON THAT LINE.

>> YEAH.

>> WELL, YOU'VE GOT THAT PART OF THE ARGUMENT FOR POLICE, TOO.

AND THEN THE OTHER PART OF THE CULTURE IS WE HAVE TO CIRCLE OUR WAGONS TO PROTECT OURSELVES BECAUSE WE ARE THE ONES OUT THERE DOING THE JOB.

HOW DO WE CONFRONT THAT?

>> SO THE PROBLEM WITH THE ARGUMENT YOU WANT ME OUT THIS, YOU NEED ME OUT THERE, THAT IS MUCH MORE APPEALING TO PEOPLE WHO ARE RELATIVELY SAFE, THE PEOPLE WHO ARE THE HIGHEST PORTION CHRONICALLY THE HIGHEST PROPORTION OF VIOLENT CRIME AND HOMICIDE VICTIMS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE LEAST LIKELY TO ENDORSE THAT FIND OF POLICING.

SO IT'S NOT THAT PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOOD FOR THEM, IT'S THAT THEY ARE MAKING A CALCULATION ABOUT AT WHAT COST?

AND SO IN NEWARK WE WOULD SEE THINGS LIKE POLICE IN THE NAME OF PROTECTING COMMUNITIES DOING STOP AND FRISKS, THAT ENTAILED STOPPING PEOPLE ON THE STREET AND PULLING THE WAISTBAND OF THEIR PANTS AND UNDERWEAR AWAY FROM THEIR BODY LOOKING DOWN THE FRONT AND LOOKING DOWN THE BACK.

I THINK THAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD BE AGHAST, CERTAINLY IF YOU WANT TO A SUBURBAN COMMUNITY -- >> IT'S NOT WHAT YOU WOULD EXPECT TO HAPPEN AND THAT'S NOT WE WANT YOU ON THE LINE.

>> NO.

>>> WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I AM JACK FORD.

TONIGHT WE'RE GOING TO CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION WITH "THE NEW YORKER'S" JELANI COBB ABOUT HIS NEW FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY ON RACE AND POLICING IN AMERICA.

IT'S CALLED "POLICING THE POLICE 2020" AND IN IT HE EXAMINES THE QUESTION OF WHY ACCOUNTABILITY IS SO HARD TO COME BY WHEN IT COMES TO POLICE.

HE ALSO LOOKS AT SOME WAYS THAT THE ANY OF NEWARK HAS TACKLED SOME OF THE MORE INTRACTABLE PROBLEMS FACING ITS POLICE FORCE OVER THE LAST FOUR YEARS.

SO JELANI COBB, ONCE AGAIN, WELCOME TO YOU.

WE'RE DELIGHTED WE CAN CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SO WE SPOKE LAST NIGHT ABOUT MANY OF THE UNDERLYING ISSUES, WE TALKED ABOUT WHY YOU HAD ORIGINALLY GONE TO NEWARK FOR SOME YEARS AGO, WHY YOU WANTED TO GO BACK TO SEE WHAT NEWARK HAS BEEN ABLE TO DO SINCE THAT TIME AND SOME OF THOSE UNDERLYING ISSUES, ACCOUNTABILITY, OF POLICE CULTURE, THE EXPECTATIONS IN TERMS OF THE COMMUNITY AND THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SO LET'S START OFF THIS PART OF THE CONVERSATION BY TALKING ABOUT WHEN YOU WANT BACK TO NEWARK.

WHEN YOU WENT YOU RODE IN POLICE CARS, YOU GOT A SENSE OF WHAT REALLY GOES ON ON THE STREETS.

WHAT STRUCK YOU AS MOST DIFFERENT FROM THEN TO NOW?

>> WELL, NOW I THINK THERE'S A MUCH MORE RECEPTIVE ATTITUDE AROUND THE IDEA THAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAS TO CHANGE, AND I THINK THAT THE DEPARTMENT ITSELF SEEMS TO HAVE KIND OF COME AROUND TO SAYING THAT WE'VE DONE SOME THINGS THAT WE'VE OPERATED IN WAYS THAT WEREN'T THE BEST WAY AND THE MOST EFFICIENT WAY OF POLICING THIS PARTICULAR COMMUNITY, AND IN ADDITION THERE ARE THE BEGINNINGS OF A MORE DIVERSE SET OF APPROACHES TO PUBLIC SAFETY, DOING THINGS BEYOND JUST POLICING.

>> LET ME GET TO THAT IN A FEW MOMENTS BECAUSE I THINK IT'S FASCINATING TO SEE WHAT IS HAPPENING THERE.

AGAIN, TO SET THE STAGE FOR SOME OF THE CONVERSATIONS ONE OF THE THINGS YOU HEAR ALMOST REGULARLY NOW WHEN PEOPLE ARE LOOKING AT THIS ISSUE AND LOOKING IN TERMS OF REMEDIES IS YOU WILL SEE AND HEAR THE TERM "DEFUNDING THE POLICE."

WHAT DO YOU UNDERSTAND THAT TERM TO MEAN?

>> WELL, IT HAS GENERALLY -- IT MEANS DIFFERENT THINGS BUT HAS GENERALLY -- I GUESS THE MOST CONSENSUS DEFINITION THAT I'VE HEARD IS THAT IT WOULD ENTAIL USING REVENUE, TAKING MONEY AWAY FROM POLICE DEPARTMENT BUDGETS AND USING THAT REVENUE TO FUND DIFFERENT KINDS OF ORGANIZATIONS THAT WILL RESPOND TO COMMUNITY NEEDS IN PLACE OF SIMPLY USING THE POLICE.

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING FROM CONVERSATIONS YOU'VE HEARD THERE ARE SOME MORE SAYING DEFUND THE POLICE MEANING ABOLISH THE POLICE.

ARE YOU SEEING THAT AS BEING A VIABLE ALTERNATIVE OR SUGGESTION GIVEN WHAT YOU'VE SEEN IN TERMS OF YOUR REPORTING?

>> JUST IN TERMS OF MY REPORTING, WE TALKED TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE IN NEWARK, WE TALKED TO COMMUNITY MEMBERS, WE TALKED TO PEOPLE ON THE POLICE FORCE, WE TALKED TO PEOPLE IN LEADERSHIP, WE TALKED TO THE MAYOR AND A WHOLE SPECTRUM OF PEOPLE AND WE DID NOT FIND A GREAT DEAL OF SUPPORT FOR ABOLISHING THE POLICE.

WHAT WE DID FIND WAS A PRETTY SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF SUPPORT FOR DEFUNDING, MEANING IF YOU ARE GOING TO OFFLOAD THINGS THAN IN THE PURVIEW OF POLICE TO OTHER ORGANIZATIONS AND JUST AS A QUICK NOTE, THE FIRST TIME I EVER HEARD THE IDEA ASSOCIATED WITH WHAT'S BECOME THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT, THE FIRST TIME I EVER HEARD THOSE IDEAS IT CAME FROM POLICE OFFICERS.

>> INTERESTING.

>> YEAH.

>> POLICE OFFICERS THEMSELVES ARE SAYING -- >> YEAH.

>> SO IN WHAT SENSE?

ARE THEY SAYING, LOOK, THERE ARE THINGS WE ARE GOOD AT AND SHOULD DO BUT THERE ARE THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE SHOULD BE DOING THAT ARE GOOD AT IT?

>> YES.

EXACTLY.

I THINK TO A LARGE PART PEOPLE ARE RESPONDING TO THE LANGUAGE AROUND IT.

THIS IS NOT A NEW IDEA.

IF YOU GO BACK TO THE OLD KERNER COMMISSION REPORT IN 1968 ABOUT WHAT THEY CALL THE CIVIL DISTURBANCES OF 1967, THEY SUGGEST SOMETHING THAT'S BASICALLY THE SAME THING, SAYING THAT IF YOU USE POLICE FOR EVERY KIND OF SOCIAL PROBLEM, YOU ARE INEVITABLY GOING TO CREATE FRICTION BETWEEN COMMUNITIES AND POLICE BECAUSE THAT'S NOT WHAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS ARE CREATED FOR.

COPS KNOW THAT AND LOTS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMUNITY MEMBERS KNOW THAT, AND IT'S AN IDEA THAT IS PROBABLY LESS RADICAL IN PRACTICE THAN IT SEEMS IN RHETORIC.

>> ONCE AGAIN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT JELANI COBB ABOUT HIS FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY TITLED "POLICING THE POLICE 2020."

AGAIN, A REMINDER FOR YOU FOLKS GO TO METROFOCUS.ORG AND YOU CAN FIND EXACTLY WHEN AND WHERE YOU CAN SEE THAT.

SO LET'S FOCUS NOW ON NEWARK.

YOU GO BACK.

NEWARK HAS -- LET ME ASK YOU, ACTUALLY, TO CHARACTERIZE IT RATHER THAN ME.

WHAT KIND OF PROGRESS HAVE THEY MADE AND WHAT SORT OF THINGS IN PARTICULAR CAN YOU POINT TO?

>> WELL, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE FEDERAL MONITOR SAID, A MAN BY THE NAME OF PETER HARVEY CHARGED WITH OVERSEEING THE REFORMS IN NEWARK, ONE OF THE THINGS HE SAID WAS HE THOUGHT THAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS REALLY NEEDED TO KNOW THE LAW.

WE'RE SEEING -- >> THAT SEEMS INTERESTING THAT YOU WOULD THINK THAT THAT WOULD BE FOUNDATIONAL.

>> RIGHT.

IN MANY INSTANCES THEY DID NOT.

SO THEY'VE HAD INTENSIVE TRAINING ABOUT WHAT OFFICERS ARE ALLOWED TO DO BY LAW AND WHAT THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO DO BY LAW.

IN ADDITION, YOU KNOW, THEY'VE GOTTEN NEW POLICIES AROUND TREATING MEMBERS OF THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY WITH, YOU KNOW, RESPECT AND RECOGNIZING THEIR RIGHTS AND SO ON.

JUST SOME PROACTIVE KINDS OF THINGS.

AND ONE OF THE MORE INNOVATIVE THINGS, I THINK, IN ADDITION IS THAT THE NEWARK COMMUNITY HAS A GROUP, THE NEWARK COMMUNITY STREET TEAM, WHICH DOES ESSENTIALLY DIPLOMATIC WORK IN HIGH-VIOLENCE COMMUNITIES, TRYING TO DEESCALATE CONFLICTS BEFORE THEY RISE TO THE LEVEL OF NEEDING THE POLICE TO BE INVOLVED.

>> WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION OF MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR BEING PART OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT?

I THINK IN SOME WAYS THAT'S BEEN TOSSED OUT, BUT IT MAY WELL BE TOO SIMPLISTIC A SOLUTION, IT GOES BACK TO THE CULTURE THAT WE TALKED -- YOU AND I TALKED ABOUT PREVIOUSLY AND YOU LOOK AT THE POLICE OFFICERS SURROUNDING GEORGE FLOYD, THERE WERE OFFICERS OF COLOR THERE AND STILL NOBODY STEPPED UP AND SAID THIS ISN'T RIGHT, WE HAVE TO STOP THIS.

SO HOW DOES THAT PLAY INTO, DO YOU THINK, THE REMEDY SCHEME, IF YOU WILL?

>> I MEAN, IF YOU GO BACK TO THE 1967 -- THE REPORT THAT CAME OUT OF THE UPRISINGS THERE SAID THAT THEY NEEDED TO DIVERSIFY THEIR POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THE DEPARTMENT NOW IS MAJORITY PEOPLE OF COLOR AND SO I THINK THAT THERE'S A -- A VALUE TO THAT, BUT IT IS NOT A PANACEA, YOU KNOW, YOU WOULD LIKE TO HAVE POLICE REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMMUNITIES, BUT CERTAINLY YOU CAN STILL HAVE THOSE KINDS OF PROBLEMS AS WE SAW IN 2014, YOU CAN STILL HAVE THOSE KINDS OF PROBLEMS WHILE EVEN HAVING A DIVERSE POLICE FORCE.

>> GENERALLY SPEAKING WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT POLICE FORCES YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LOCAL FORCES AS YOU NOTED.

>> YES.

>> LOCAL COMMUNITIES, THEN THE STATE LEVEL, THEN THE FEDERAL LEVEL CERTAINLY.

>> RIGHT.

>> AND WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT NEWARK, FOR INSTANCE, YOU'RE LOOKING AT WHAT THE PEOPLE IN NEWARK, THE LEADERS, THE ADMINISTRATION, MAYOR RAS BARAKA, WHAT THEY HAVE DONE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS.

BUT WHAT ABOUT AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL IN TERMS OF EITHER MONEY OR GUIDANCE OR DIRECTION, ARE WE SEEING WHAT WE NEED TO SEE IN TERMS OF LEADERSHIP FROM THE FEDERAL LEVEL?

>> UNFORTUNATELY NOT RIGHT NOW.

YOU KNOW, THE DOJ HAS THE CAPACITY TO CONDUCT OVERSIGHT OVER POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

NOW, IT'S A DROP IN THE BUCKET KIND OF SITUATION, THERE ARE 18,000 POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN THE COUNTRY, THE DOJ DOESN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO OVERSEE ALL OF THEM, BUT THE MOST TROUBLE, THE MOST PROBLEMATIC ONES THEY CAN STEP IN AND CONDUCT OVERSIGHT IN THOSE INSTANCES, BUT WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN THE LAST FOUR YEARS HAS BEEN THAT THE DOJ HAS SYSTEMATICALLY STEPPED AWAY FROM ANY KIND OF OVERSIGHT AND SAYING THAT THEY DID NOT WANT TO INTERFERE WITH POLICE MATTERS, AND EVEN DISMISSING THE IDEA THAT YOU COULD HAVE SUCH A THING AS A CHRONICALLY PROBLEMATIC POLICE DEPARTMENT.

SO WE HAVEN'T SEEN A GREAT DEAL OF REFORM LEADERSHIP ON THAT LEVEL.

>> HOW ABOUT THE IDEA OF YOU USED THE TERM "DIPLOMACY."

POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE DEPARTMENT, TALKING ABOUT NEWARK WE SAW -- I KNOW THAT YOU'VE STUDIED THIS BUT THE CAMDEN POLICE DEPARTMENT AGAIN IN THE STATE OF NEW JERSEY, CAMDEN POLICE DEPARTMENT BASICALLY WENT AWAY AND REBUILT ITSELF FROM SCRATCH A NUMBER OF YEARS AGO AND ONE OF THE THINGS I WAS STRUCK BY IS THAT AS PART OF LIKE YOUR FIRST DAY ON THE JOB AS A POLICE OFFICER PART OF WHAT YOU DO IS YOU GO KNOCK ON DOORS AND YOU INTRODUCE YOURSELF TO THE RESIDENTS AND THE COMMUNITY MEMBERS AND YOU SAY, LOOK, WE'RE HERE TO PROTECT AND SERVE.

HOW ABOUT THAT, THAT IDEA OF DIPLOMACY, HOW SIGNIFICANT DO YOU THINK THAT COULD BE?

>> I THINK THAT'S HUGE.

I THINK THAT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU TALK TO -- WHEN YOU -- YOU HEAR WHEN YOU TALK TO PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY IS A PERVASIVE SENSE THAT THEY HAVE NOT BEEN TREATED WITH RESPECT.

I THINK THAT A GOOD DEAL OF FRICTION THAT ARISES JUST COMES IN THE COURSE OF DAY TO DAY INTERACTION.

I DON'T EVEN HEAR THAT SIMPLY FROM COMMUNITY MEMBERS, I HEARD THAT FROM POLICE OFFICERS WHO KIND OF OFF THE RECORD SAY THAT.

LIKE, YEAH, I KNOW WE'RE GOING ABOUT THINGS IN A WAY THAT JUST KIND OF MAKES PEOPLE HATE US, BUT WE'RE TRYING TO GET CRIME DOWN AND MAYBE THIS IS NOT THE BEST WAY TO DO IT.

SO I THINK THAT'S A REALLY BIG PART OF IT.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS -- I'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT HERE WITH YOU, BUT WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS HERE, AND I'VE HEARD POLICE OFFICERS SAY THIS, POLICE OFFICERS SAYING, LOOK, WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGE.

WE RECOGNIZE WE NEED TO MAKE CHANGES, BUT WE ALSO POINT TO THE FACT THAT VIDEOS, AS YOU MENTIONED IN OUR CONVERSATION YESTERDAY, ARE CAPTURING THINGS NOW THAT DIDN'T GET CAPTURED IN THE PAST, BUT THEY'RE ALSO -- THE POLICE SAY THEY'RE NOT CAPTURING ALL THE GOOD THINGS THAT POLICE OFFICERS WILL DOO ON THE STREET AS A COUNTERBALANCE, IF YOU WILL, OR JUST A BETTER PICTURE, A MORE COMPREHENSIVE PICTURE.

HOW ABOUT THAT?

>> SURE.

I MEAN, I THINK THAT WE NEED TO HAVE AS COMPREHENSIVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH THE POLICE, A DEPICTION OF POLICE, AS POSSIBLE.

SO THAT WE HAVE AN UNDERSTANDING OF THE WHOLE PICTURE.

YOU KNOW, THAT SAID, WE SHOULDN'T HAVE TO OFFSET REALLY EGREGIOUSLY BAD BEHAVIOR WITH GOOD BEHAVIOR, WE SHOULD SIMPLY HAVE A BEHAVIOR THAT MEETS THE BASELINE FOR THE MINIMUM STANDARD AND BEHAVIOR THAT EXCEEDS THAT THAT IS REALLY GOOD OR REALLY GREAT.

>> SO THE NOTION OF LET'S MAKE SURE THAT WE TRUMPET THE GOOD THINGS THAT ARE BEING DONE BUT WE DON'T HAVE TO DO IT BY PUTTING IT IN A SCALE.

>> RIGHT.

EXACTLY.

>> THE WAYS THE TERRIBLE THINGS THAT ARE TAKING PLACE -- I LITERALLY HAVE 30 SECONDS, BUT ARE YOU OPTIMISTIC THAT NOW MIGHT BE THE TIME FOR CHANGE?

>> I BELIEVE SO.

I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE.

NOTHING IS GUARANTEED, BUT BASED ON WHAT I SAW IN NEWARK I DO THINK THAT IT IS AT LEAST -- IT IS AT LEAST POSSIBLE.

>> ONCE AGAIN, THE DOCUMENTARY, FRONT LINE DOCUMENTARY IS TITLED "POLICING THE POLICE 2020."

OUR GUEST, JELANI COBB, NEW YORKER WRITER, HISTORIAN.

WONDERFUL WORK AGAIN, FOLLOWING UP THE ONE FROM FOUR YEARS AGO.

WE CERTAINLY APPRECIATE YOUR TAKING SOME TIME TO TALK WITH US AND HOPEFULLY WE WILL GET A CHANCE TO CHAT SOME MORE AS WE MOVE FORWARD TO SEE JUST HOW -- WHAT SORT OF PROGRESS WE ARE MAKING.

JELANI, AGAIN, OUR THANKS, YOU TAKE CARE.

>> TAKE CARE.

>>"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY -- ♪♪ ♪♪ ♪♪