>> What are the biggest issues -- one of the biggest issues holding not New York it was because Bill reform.

Tonight the Democratic D.A.

defying his own party and calling for changes to the controversial law.

Elite New Yorkers and a former member who got out.

♪ >> This is a MetroFocus with Rafael B Raman, Jack Ford, and Jenna Flanagan.

MetroFocus is made possible by Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III.

Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation.

The Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

>> Good evening, and welcome to MetroFocus.

I am Jenna Flanagan.

Of all of the issues our elected officials are fighting about in Albany, that there is perhaps in a's controversial bail reform law.

The policy eliminated the use of cash bail for most misdemeanors and some violent -- nonviolent felony charges in an attempt to ensure it no one would have to sit in jail simply because they could not afford to pay their way out.

Bail reform has been criticized by Republicans and some Democrats who argue these changes to our pretrial system are the main reason we saw a spike in violent crimes in 2020.

One such Democrat is the Albany County district attorney, who says he was uninvited from testifying at a recent state hearing reviewing bail reform because of his public opposition to the law.

He joins us tonight.

Mr. district attorney, welcome to MetroFocus.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> Just so that everyone is clear, I was wondering if you could give us your understanding or legal definition of the term bail reform, because we have heard it a lot but everyone might not be on the same page.

>> I think you are right.

Often times when people regardless of where they stand on the reform issues are talking about increases in crime and what has changed, often times the issue is pegged to bail reform, but it is a confluence of all of the reforms that have been passed over the course of the last three years at that have given rise to what we are now experiencing in communities like Albany County, which is a dramatic increase in crime and violence, and more specifically crime and violence as it relates to very specific communities.

It is not just bail reform.

It is discovery reform, raise the age and a host of other reforms.

Jenna: Is this something you were always against from the onset, or was this something where you began to change her mind as time went on and you saw perhaps the changes in the crime rates?

>> Let me be very clear.

There was no one who had a closer seat at the time to these changes as I was the then president of the District Attorney's Association, so we had an opportunity to review some of these bills prior to their passage, and as a member of the Association, we certainly could see some of the benefits, but we also saw some of the dangers.

The thing I continue to harp and drive home for our leaders at the time was, look, all of the positive things about these reforms are going to be undermined by the mistakes we also see here, and unfortunately these bills were passed.

Every year they have gone back to make some adjustments but not enough to correct the issues we still believe are responsible for the increase in violence today.

Primarily, we are talking about the criminal justice system, a system that deals with dangerous people, and to get judges who we elect are prohibited from considering dangerousness.

Judges are prohibited from considering community safety.

Those are the two primary issues that I think undermined all of the other value that these reforms may have brought.

Jenna: So that is one of the things you could take us a bit deeper into what you see as some of the problems with this law.

>> Take for example, at the very beginning, what the legislature did was they basically eliminated all misdemeanors from bail consideration.

It was presumptive release.

At the judge could not even consider many of these misdemeanors for purposes of holding an individual in.

In that entire class of misdemeanors, there were sex offenses, there were hate crimes, which event the legislature upon their realization went back and make corrections, those corrections were not enough.

The idea that an individual who continues to go into a retailer and steal merchandise, and the only thing you can take into consideration is whether the person is going to be punctual and returned to court but not take a look at this person's entire history, maybe there are prior offenses were violence.

The ability for a judge not to be able to consider it, the inability of a prosecutor to make those arguments has led to recidivism, so those are the issues we continue to take issue with.

Now, at the idea that a person who is engaged in a nonviolent crime, first-time offender sitting in jail awaiting trial, I think we all agree with the principle that that person should not be sitting in jail, but we are not talking about those individuals.

What we are talking about are the career criminals that have benefited immensely from these reforms, and we would like the legislature to take a serious look at these issues and provide us with an opportunity and audience to debate these issues.

>> You also mentioned that the bail reform along has been detrimental to specific communities.

I am wondering if you can expand or highlight who you are talking about?

>> I think we get mired into talking about statistics.

Very often it is one group citing certain statistics and in group setting other statistics.

Other times those numbers are not that far off, that I think it is misleading when we say, for example, Albany County over the course of the last three years has experienced a 30% increase in violent crime.

Those numbers are right, they are correct.

But I think we tended to spread those numbers across all communities, and that is simply not true.

The suburban communities in Albany County and have not experienced a 30% increase in crimes.

The neighborhoods that have are the black and brown communities.

Ironically, the very community the legislature intended to benefit from these reforms.

But what we are seeing is more violence, rate or and brown victimization, and that is really the only issue that I a few weeks ago wanted to address with our legislators, and we were denied that opportunity to engage in that conversation.

Again, when you hear about for example New York State having a 40 plus percent increase in crimes, we are not talking about that 40% affecting all communities equally.

We are talking about those increases happening in like in a brown pockets of our communities.

Jenna: Building off what you were saying, I would have to point out in the same last three years that you mentioned, we have also all been through the trauma of a worldwide global pandemic, and there have been several other states that have seen spikes in violent crimes also in poor communities, which we do notice statistically speaking were hit harder by the impact of the pandemic.

Unemployment, job loss, food insecurity, etc.

And they also saw a similar increase.

Is this mail reform or was this something -- bail reform or was there something more existential?

>> We have had the benefit in the state of New York as being the national leader all throughout the country of being the largest safe state, and how did we do that?

We were able to achieve those goals by being tough on violent crime, but also smart about diversion, so we have applied those principles all throughout, and we have achieved record level reductions in crime, improved public safety.

We are among the few states that have been able to shut prisons down while other states have expanded their prison industrial complex, so this idea that all of these changes are brought upon by COVID is just absurd.

The reality is, if you take criminals and you catch a criminal, and then you are able to release that criminal, that criminal will continue to criminal, OK?

They will continue to engage in this crime.

New York State has lost population.

That is something we are struggling with.

How does one explain how we have seen increases all across the board in crimes with a diminishing state population?

It is common sense that it is the same people who continue to commit crimes that we now apprehend, that we release who were out there committing additional crimes.

The other thing I will say about comparisons with different states, we have never been Chicago, Illinois, Baltimore, Maryland, L.A.

If you look at the numbers prior to COVID and you look at the numbers prior to reform, New York was always heading in the right trajectory when those other cities, all of whom have also embraced the same reform ideologies, mind you, we were always going in a different direction from them.

I am glad you asked that question.

Jenna: I want to touch on the fact that you were uninvited from testifying, so I want to get into the Albany back-and-forth, so bear with me.

I understand it that you did to release written testimony, and in that you said, quote, the immobilization of criminals is not a critical part of public safety akin to pretending the earth is flat, i.e., assuming that people will or will not be able to show up for bail reform is a ridiculous assertion.

I want to also add a Democrat from the Bronx, who was also presiding over the hearings, responded saying door testimony was offensive, pejorative, and condescending.

What is your response to that?

>> What is offensive and really condescending is changing the criminal justice laws in the state of New York driving the state into the calamity we are in at the moment and pretending we are not in this moment.

I like Senator Bailey, who by the way I respect and admire, unlike Senator Bailey I am the person that asked to speak with victims.

I have to explain to people why the person that we apprehended is now out on the streets.

I am the person who has to continue to looking out to protecting those individuals, and this is not about politics for me.

It never has been.

This is about public safety, and the reality is you can talk about numbers, statistics, but at the end of the date we are talking about real human beings who are being harmed by these policies, and that should invite greater dialogue.

Jenna: That is the note we will have to leave it on, but I want to thank Albany District Attorney for joining us tonight on MetroFocus to discuss the critical issue in Albany of bail reform.

Thank you for joining us.

>> Thank you.

Jenna: Absolutely.

♪ >> Snyder was a corporate lawyer invited by an acquaintance to attend a secret meeting of a group noted by its members simply as school.

Drawn into by its charismatic leader, he joined other highly educated and successful New Yorkers but soon found himself trapped in one of the nation's most secretive and abusive Colts.

In his new book, a cautionary tale entitled Manhattan cold story, my unbelievable true story of sex, crimes, chaos, and survival, he tells how and why he joined the cold and how he got out after 23 years.

We are very least Spencer Schneider is joining us to share some of these experiences with us.

Thank you for joining us.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Is a fantastic book.

Quite honestly, if you did not know from the beginning it was a true story, you would say this is interesting that someone would forever get this story, but I cannot imagine it would've happened that way.

Given that quick introduction, explained to her viewers who you were back then when you were 29.

A brief resume, if you will, of who you are.

>> I grew up on Long Island in a middle-class family, great parents who sent me to college, send me to law school.

I started work in Manhattan with a fairly big firm, and I was working many long hours, but I had great friends, you know.

A successful life and was doing exactly what I wanted to do.

Jack: When we think of cults, the first vision we come up with our lost souls, wayward souls who have no supportive family, the direction in their lives.

Clearly that was not you when you were 29?

>> That is correct.

I had everything that I needed.

I was not looking for anything, and if anything, you know, any kind of group or surging concept was for information, and I had no interest in anything like that of any spiritual nature whatsoever.

Jack: It brings you into this.

Give us a sense, let's talk about your first meeting.

What it did look like?

What did it feel like?

What was it about it that became attractive to you?

>> The first meeting of the group was extremely boring, I should say.

You know, I was expecting, you know an esoteric school that met twice a week in Manhattan.

It was meant to be secret because it was esoteric, that we would be talking about two Russian mystics and their ideas or cosmology, and that we could use these ideas as tools for our life to help us in our careers and love lives and whatnot.

What I found was a very boring discussion I did not really follow, and I was not inclined to return.

Jenna: -- Jack: What was it then that drew your back in?

>> I promised a friend that invited me I would do a one month commitment, so I held my nose and went back to a few boring classes, but I suffered a crisis in my life, which is that I lost my job.

And when I went to class that evening, I found a lot of support and care, which I would not say that I would get from my friends and family.

Not that they were not loving, but it was a special kind of interest in them well-being.

Jack: When you experience that, give us a sense of the composition of the group?

I do not need names, but essentially identities?

What were they?

>> Yes, I should add to the description, which is, you know, there were other people dressed in suits and ties, men and women in their late 20's, early 30's who were well educated, professional people.

I was happy that there was no one in robes chanting and there were no sacrifices going on, because I was afraid it was a cult, but there were folks just like you and I.

Lawyers, doctors, and hedge fund managers, folks who went to Ivy League schools.

I mean, the person who invited me was a very established young men, IV educated, and I had no reason to doubt the group of people there would be similar to me.

Jack: Goes back to what I mentioned before, in our minds you mentioned the word cult, we tend to think of them, not us.

And to you were surrounded by us, by you in these meetings.

So that is the initial phases for you.

And again, I just want to underscore, the book is fascinating, riveting.

It elaborates so much more of these stories just to give people a sense of it.

How then did you find yourself becoming completely drawn into this?

And what did you and the others end up doing as part of this cult?

>> Sure, I think the initial thing that drew me in was the support and this community that I found of like-minded people who were interested in improving their lives, and we use the tools, what we call the school or the work to sort of improve our lives, and people really felt like we were gaining more confidence, and the people who lead the group at that time were extremely helpful to us.

You know, in navigating your young life in New York.

It can be very lonely, and it is very hard when you were just finding your way in life, so they had answers for us.

Jack: Up to now, this sounds like a wonderfully supportive group of professionals.

Young professionals in New York City helping you navigate your life where it at some point in life, this becomes far more sinister.

It turns.

Tell me how it turns.

Tell me about this charismatic leader and what direction now it took you one as opposed to the direction that you suggested early on.

>> So it turned when they asked us to start recruiting other members, other people, which involved a great amount of time and it involved a method that was frankly, you know, unethical, because we were going around and befriending folks and trying to create these matters of trust with people, with strangers really.

And then slowly lure them into the group, and when we felt they would be right for it in terms of their profile, and how much money they made and whatnot, we would let them in on the secret.

So it felt a little off.

Jack: Give me a list if you will.

It is far too expensive to get into all of it, but give me a list of some of the things you and the other members of the school found yourselves doing which made this now more sinister cult.

>> So we spent a great deal of time doing projects for the leaders.

The main leader was Sharon Gans, and we helped build her home, we helped build the spaces that we worked in.

We worked on recruiting, which was hours and hours a week, and we gave a lot of money also each month to her.

I estimate that she earned about $1 million a year intuitions -- in tuitions.

>> You talk about moments of physical abuse, mental abuse, sexual abuse, ordered marriages, divorces.

This all came from the leader?

>> The physical abuse.

We were asked to engage in boxing, but they were very brutal.

We were told that this would be character building, but a lot of us got very hurt, including me and we were discouraged from getting medical help.

I was in an arranged marriage.

Jack: Arranged by the leaders of the cult.

Basically people were told to get rid of your current wife or husband.

You will be married to this person or be involved in an affair with this person.

>> Correct, and it was very coercive.

By this time we were dependent on the group.

We found community there, and we really admired the leaders.

When they asked us or told us to do things we would do it even if it was against our own interests.

Women were directed to have affairs with other men in the group, which on reflection looking back on it, that is coercive.

It is not a consensual thing.

Jack: And people would do this, people would follow these directions including leaving spouses.

We could talk forever about this .

I got about two minutes here.

You were in this for 23 years.

>> Right.

Jack: How did you decide -- what did you decide you had to get out and how did you get out?

>> I decided when I felt that a betrayal by the leaders, there were several instances where it was clear that they were doing things that were against my interests.

Interfering in my marriage, interfering in my work life, and it became untenable.

Although I lost a lot when I left, I was doing work with someone in the group, and I lost my complete business.

I was having a nervous breakdown and I was at my wits end.

I felt I had nothing to lose, so I felt I had to leave, which I did.

Jack: Is this cult still in existence?

>> Yes it is still in existence.

The leader passed away from COVID, but the group is led by four people who are her acolytes .

I would guess there is still a couple hundred people still in the group.

Jack: This is the first comment is called Manhattan cult story.

It is the first time someone has opened up the pages on this cult.

Last thing for you is how are you doing now?

>> I am great.

I got, you know, psychological help.

I saw a therapist, which helped me tremendously, and I found new friends and new interests.

I discovered open water swimming.

I became a lifeguard, and I have a rich life.

I have all of the things that I wanted now that I was promised then.

Jack: And spent 23 years fighting against.

This is a fascinating story, and people should read this understanding this is true.

It is not fictionalized.

A cautionary tale for other people who will see themselves and you.

Thank you so much for joining us.

Good luck to you.

I know you were doing longform swimming out there.

Stay safe, and we will talk soon.

You be well now.

>> Thanks, Jack.

I appreciate it.

>> You can take our award-winning program with you everywhere you go with MetroFocus at the podcast.

Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts so you never miss an episode, or ask your smart speaker to play MetroFocus the podcast.

Also available on MetroFocus.org and the NPR one app.

♪ >> MetroFocus is made possible by Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III.

Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation.

The Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

♪