♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

>>> WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JACK FORD.

SO THE QUESTION IS HOW MANY LONG-TERM CARE RESIDENTS IN NEW YORK STATE HAVE DIED AS A RESULT OF COVID-19?

THAT QUESTION IS AT THE HEART OF A SPIRALING CRISIS NOW ENGULFING THE CUOMO ADMINISTRATION.

ON MONDAY THE GOVERNOR ADMITTED THAT THE STATE SHOULD HAVE RELEASED MORE DATA ON THE TRUE SCOPE OF THE DEATH TOLL.

LAST WEEK A LEAKED DISCUSSION BETWEEN A TOP CUOMO AIDE AND DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS SHOWED THAT THE ADMINISTRATION DELAYED RELEASING DATA ON THESE DEATHS BECAUSE OF AN INQUIRY BY THEN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S JUSTICE DEPARTMENT.

THE GOVERNOR DENIED ANY ACCUSATIONS OF A COVER-UP AND SAID STATE OFFICIALS COMPLIED WITH THE FEDERAL PROBE.

BUT ACCEPTED BLAME FOR THE DELAY AND FOR THE DAMAGE DONE BY HIS ADMINISTRATION'S LACK OF TRANSPARENCY.

NEVERTHELESS, STATE LEGISLATORS AS WELL AS RELATIVES OF LONG-TERM CARE RESIDENTS WHO DIED OF COVID SAY THAT THEY NEED MORE ANSWERS AND MORE TRANSPARENCY.

JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THIS IS BETH FINKEL, HOSPITAL THE STATE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW YORK OFFICE OF THE AARP.

BETH, WELCOME.

IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO TALK WITH YOU.

>> YOU TOO, JACK.

>> SO LET ME START, BEFORE I ASK YOU ABOUT THE REACTION TO WHAT THE GOVERNOR HAS SAID, LET ME ASK WHAT YOUR REACTION WAS WHEN THE NEWS WAS FIRST REVEALED ABOUT THAT SIGNIFICANT DISCREPANCY INITIALLY BETWEEN THE NUMBER OF DEATHS CLAIMED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN HOSPITALS AS OPPOSED TO THOSE CLAIMED TO HAVE TAKEN PLACE IN THE LONG-TERM CARE FACILITIES.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THIS HAS BEEN A TRAGEDY.

IT'S BEEN A NATIONAL TRAGEDY IN TERMS OF LIVES LOST AND WHAT THAT MEANS TO FAMILIES OF LOVED ONES AND THE ACTUAL RESIDENTS THEMSELVES.

AND AARP WAY BACK IN THE SPRING WAS ASKING ABOUT THE DISCREPANCY OF THE NUMBERS AND THE PANDEMIC AND QUESTIONING THE REPORTING.

SO WE'RE REALLY GLAD THAT WE'RE HAVING MORE TRANSPARENCY NOW.

WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

HOW DO WE LEARN FROM WHAT HAPPENED AND HOW DO WE PLAN GOING FORWARD?

THE PANDEMIC IS NOT OVER.

AND WE NEED TO BE PREPARED TO REALLY FINALLY TAKE CARE OF THIS PANDEMIC BUT ALSO BE PREPARED FOR THE ONES THAT MIGHT STILL BE TO COME.

SO THAT'S REALLY WHERE OUR FOCUS IS.

>> SO THE GOVERNOR HAS COME OUT AS I MENTIONED AND SAID OKAY, HERE'S WHAT HAPPENED.

IT WASN'T A COVER-UP BUT WE WERE STUCK IN THE MIDST OF THIS TURMOIL OF POSSIBLY THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE COMING AFTER US, SO WE KIND OF STOPPED IN WHAT WE WERE DOING IN TERMS OF PROVIDING DATA -- I'M PARAPHRASING HIM.

WE DEALT WITH THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE THEN WE WERE ENGULFED ONCE AGAIN BY A SECOND WAVE BY ROLLING OUT VACCINES.

AND HE SAID WE SHOULD HAVE DONE BETTER.

IS THAT A SATISFACTORY ANSWER, DO YOU THINK, ON BEHALF OF THE FOLKS THAT YOU REPRESENT IN AARP?

>> AGAIN, I FEEL LIKE WE'RE LOOKING AT GOING FORWARD.

RIGHT?

WE KNOW NOW WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE.

WE'RE GOING TO BE GETTING REPORTING ON TRULY WHAT THE NUMBERS ARE.

NOW WE NEED TO LOOK AT TRANSPARENCY AND THE NUMBER OF OTHER AREAS IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT LONG-TERM CARE.

RIGHT NOW THE IMMUNITY THAT NURSING HOMES HAVE IN TERMS OF PEOPLE BEING ABLE TO MAKE CASES AGAINST THEM, THAT IMMUNITY WAS TAKEN AWAY ORIGINALLY IN THE PANDEMIC.

IT HAS SINCE BEEN DISCONTINUED.

BUT IT'S NOT RETROACTIVE.

SO WE WOULD VERY MUCH LIKE TO SEE THAT IMMUNITY BE RETROACTIVE BECAUSE IF PEOPLE LOST THEIR LIVES, FAMILIES, LOVED ONES SHOULD HAVE SOME RECOURSE IF THEY THINK THAT SOMETHING WAS NOT ADDRESSED.

SO THAT'S ONE AREA.

AND I CAN GO INTO A NUMBER OF AREAS -- >> I'LL GET TO A COUPLE MORE AREAS FOR YOU IN TERMS OF MOVING FORWARD, WHAT DO WE DO MOVING FORWARD.

BUT THE LAST QUESTION TO FOCUS ON WHAT WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT HERE IS I'VE SEEN PEOPLE SAY LOOK, TERRIBLE TRAGEDY, ANYTIME ANYBODY DIES TERRIBLE TRAGEDY.

BUT THEY'VE SAID WHY DOES IT MAKE A DIFFERENCE WHETHER THEY DIED IN A HOSPITAL, WHETHER WE SAY THEY DIED IN A HOSPITAL OR IN A LONG-TERM CARE FACILITY?

WHAT DO YOU THINK IS THE ANSWER TO THAT?

>> I THINK IT GOES BACK TO WHAT TRANSPIRED.

NOT JUST ACROSS THE SYSTEM BUT IN EACH INDIVIDUAL FACILITY, BE IT A NURSING HOME OR ASSISTED LIVING OR ADULT DAYCARE OR ADULT HOME.

WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND EXACTLY WHAT TRANSPIRED IN EACH ONE OF THOSE FACILITIES.

WAS THERE PPE?

WAS THERE ADEQUATE TESTING?

WHAT HAPPENED WITH VISITATION?

WE NEED TO KNOW ALL OF THIS.

AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL.

AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL CORRECT IT GOING FORWARD.

BUT WE'LL ALWAYS BE STAUNCH ADVOCATES FOR THAT.

>> SPEAKING OF GOING FORWARD, LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME PARTICULAR AREAS.

THE QUESTION OF VISITATION.

IT'S BEEN SUCH A DIFFICULT AND HEART-WRENCHING SCENARIO BECAUSE ON THE ONE HAND YOU HEAR THE SCIENTISTS SAY IF EVERYBODY'S GETTING TOGETHER IT'S GOING TONE HANS THE SPREAD.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND YOU SEE THE AGONY, THE ANGUISH OF PEOPLE LOSING THEIR LOVED ONES AND THE BEST THING THEY CAN DO IS LOOK THROUGH A WINDOW PERHAPS AT THEM, MAYBE NOT EVEN THAT.

SO HOW THEN DO WE MOVE FORWARD HERE AND ACCOMMODATE BOTH OF THESE CONCERNS FOR SAFETY AND THE EMOTIONAL NECESSITY, IF YOU WILL, OF HAVING CONTACT WITH LOVED ONES?

>> I'M SO GLAD YOU MENTIONED THAT EMOTIONAL NECESSITY BECAUSE THAT IS ABSOLUTELY SO TRUE.

YOU KNOW, NUMBER ONE, ISOLATION IS A TERRIBLE THING.

YOU DON'T HAVE YOUR LOVED ONES VISITING YOU, HOLDING YOUR HAND, TALKING TO YOU, THAT'S REALLY HARDCORE ISOLATION.

AND WE KNOW THAT BEING ISOLATEED IS EQUAL TO SMOKING 15 CIGARETTES A DAY, WHICH HAS SO MANY OTHER HEALTH RAMIFICATIONS.

BUT ON TOP OF THAT IT'S ALSO PERSONAL ADVOCACY.

IF GOD FORBID MY MOTHER WAS IN A NURSING HOME AND I WAS NOT ABLE TO VISIT HER, THEN WHO'S MAKING SURE THAT MY MOM IS EATING THE THREE MEALS A DAY THAT SHE SHOULD BE EATING?

MAKING SURE MY MOTHER, GOD FORBID, DOESN'T HAVE BEDSORES OR WHATEVER.

THAT EXTRA LEVEL OF SURVEILLANCE AS ANY FAMILY MEMBER KNOWS WHO'S HAD SOMEBODY IN ANY KIND OF INSTITUTION, YOU NEED THAT PERSONAL ADVOCACY IN PLACE, ESPECIALLY IN THESE TIMES.

WHEN THE VISITATION RULES FIRST CAME INTO BEING, THE REASON YOU HAVE ADEQUATE TESTING, IT WASN'T EVEN AVAILABLE -- THE SCIENCE OF IT WASN'T EVEN WHERE IT IS RIGHT NOW.

SO RIGHT NOW THERE IS.

AND WITH THAT THERE'S TESTING.

THEY TEST STAFF.

THEY CAN TEST VISITORS.

AND THAT'S THE WAY IT NEEDS TO BE.

>> IT'S NOT AN EQUIVALENCE, BUT IT STRUCK HOME TO ME THAT FOUR WEEKS AGO I WAS IN A HOSPITAL, I HAD TO HAVE SOME MAJOR BACK SURGERY.

SOME DISKS FUSED, HARDWARE PUT IN.

I WAS IN THERE FOR ABOUT 3 1/2 DAYS.

AND THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT RESTRICTIONS.

MY WIFE WAS ABLE TO COME FOR A COUPLE HOURS, THAT'S IT.

NOBODY ELSE COULD VISIT.

AND YOU'RE KIND OF IN A ROOM BY YOURSELF.

BUT I KNEW I WAS GETTING OUT IN 3 1/2 DAYS.

AND AS I WAS PREPARING FOR THIS AND THIS CONVERSATION I THOUGHT, I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE, AS DEPRESSED AS I FELT, I CAN'T EVEN BEGIN TO IMAGINE THE IMPACT IT HAS ON PEOPLE, AS YOU SAID, WHO ARE JUST NOT ABLE TO SEE THESE PEOPLE.

SO ARE YOU SATISFIED IN THE PROGRESS THAT WE'RE MAKING IN TERMS OF BALANCING THE NEED FOR SAFETY WITH THE NEED FOR EMOTIONAL AND PHYSICAL CONTACT?

>> I THINK WE'RE GETTING BETTER ALL THE TIME.

THERE ARE SOME OTHER PIECES TO THIS WHEN WE TALK ABOUT SURVEILLANCE.

NEW YORK AND EVERY OTHER STATE HAS LONG-TERM CARE OMBUDSMEN.

THESE ARE VOLUNTEERS WHO FOR THE MOST PART ARE OLDER ADULTS.

AND THEY WOULD NORMALLY GO INTO THE NURSING HOMES AND DO INSPECTIONS AND ASK QUESTIONS OF PATIENTS AND JUST OBSERVE THINGS GOING ON.

BECAUSE OF COVID THEY HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO GO INTO THESE INSTITUTIONS.

THEY'RE OLDER ADULTS.

THEY CAN'T PUT THEMSELVES IN JEOPARDY.

SO WE HAVE BEEN MISSING THAT WHOLE PART OF ADVOCACY FOR A LONG TIME.

THAT'S REALLY UNFORTUNATE.

WE REALLY NEED THE STATE TO BE LOOKING AT THE LONG-TERM CARE OMBUDSMAN PROGRAM, NOT BEING JUST RELIANT ON OLDER ADULTS WHO IN THESE SITUATIONS REALLY ARE NOT GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET IN THERE AND VOLUNTEER AS THEY NORMALLY WOULD.

>> ONCE AGAIN WE'RE TALKING WITH BETH FINKEL WHO'S THE STATE DIRECTOR OF THE NEW YORK OFFICE OF THE AARP.

WHAT ABOUT THE NOTION OF VACCINATIONS THEMSELVES?

AND FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE OF YOUR ORGANIZATION WHAT ARE YOU SEEING IN TERMS OF OUR ELDERLY CITIZENS GETTING ACCESS TO THE ACTUAL VACCINATION?

AND AS A COROLLARY TO THAT THE DIFFICULTIES WE'RE HEARING THAT ELDERLY CITIZENS AND OTHER GROUPS, ACTUALLY, ARE HAVING HANDLING THE TECHNOLOGY OF HOW YOU GET SCHEDULED FOR THAT.

>> IT IS INCREDIBLY FRUSTRATING.

AND IT'S NOT ONLY FRUSTRATING FOR THE OLDER ADULTS, IT'S ALSO FRUSTRATING FOR THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS WHO ARE TRYING TO JUMP IN THERE AND HELP THEM.

AND IMAGINE, YOU KNOW, IN NEW YORK CITY 50% OF OLDER ADULTS ARE IMMIGRANTS.

SO WE'RE TALKING ABOUT THE LANGUAGE BARRIER POSSIBLY.

AND ON TOP OF THAT WE ALSO HAVE THE TECH DIVIDE.

RIGHT?

THAT COMBINES.

AND THEN THERE'S THE DISTRUST.

WE ARE FINDING THAT WITHIN AFRICAN-AMERICAN, HISPANIC AND ASIAN-AMERICAN, PACIFIC ISLANDERS THAT THERE IS A LITTLE BIT OF CYNICISM ABOUT TAKING THE VACCINE AND WE REALLY NEED TO LOOK AT PUBLIC EDUCATION TO BREAK DOWN THOSE BARRIERS.

PEOPLE SHOULD DO WHAT THEY WANT.

IF THEY DON'T WANT THE VACCINE, THAT'S THEIR BUSINESS.

BUT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT PEOPLE ARE MAKING AN INFORMED -- >> SO AT LEAST THEY KNOW ENOUGH TO MAKE THAT DECISION.

AGAIN, HOPEFULLY THEY'LL SAY YES, WE'LL TAKE IT.

BUT AT LEAST YOU DON'T WANT PEOPLE MAKING THAT DECISION BASED UPON SOMETHING THAT THEY SAW ON SOME RIDICULOUS SITE ON THE INTERNET.

>> NO.

AND THEN THEY MIGHT -- YOU KNOW, BACK TO WHAT WE WERE TALKING ABOUT, YOU'RE GOING TO END UP IN AN INSTITUTION.

YOU'RE GOING TO END UP IN A HOSPITAL.

YOU COULD END UP IN A NURSING HOME.

AND AGAIN, I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE MAKE THE POINT THAT WE NEED TO LOOK AT MORE OVERSIGHT.

IF WE DON'T GET THE RIGHT DATA, WHICH IS THE POINT YOU THAT BROUGHT UP EARLIER, HOW DO WE MAKE GOOD POLICIES GOING FORWARD IF WE DON'T HAVE THE GOOD DATA?

AND SO WE ABSOLUTELY NEED THAT.

TO ANSWER THE ETHNICITY, THAT'S SO IMPORTANT.

AND ON TOP OF THAT WE ALSO NEED TO LOOK AT DEATH.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THAT.

I'VE GOT ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT.

SO IT'S A LAST QUESTION FOR YOU.

BUT THIS NOTION OF STAFFING AND STAFFING SHORTAGES.

WHAT DO WE NEED TO DO?

>> WELL, WE KNOW ABSOLUTELY THAT THE LOWER THE STAFF TO PATIENT RATIO THE POORER THE CARE THE PATIENT IS GOING TO GET.

WE ALSO NEED TO BE LOOKING AT HOW NURSING HOMES SPEND THEIR MONEY.

NEW JERSEY ACTUALLY JUST PASSED A LAW THAT 90% OF THE MONEY THAT COMES INTO THE NURSING HOMES SHOULD BE SPENT IN DIRECT CARE.

WE DON'T HAVE THAT IN NEW YORK.

I THINK THAT'S SOMETHING WE SHOULD BE LOOKING AT.

>> SO CERTAINLY THERE ARE STEPS THAT CAN BE TAKEN HERE AS WE'RE MOVING FORWARD WITH DEALING WITH ALL OF THESE PROBLEMS.

AS WE SAID, THE -- IT'S IMPORTANT TO KNOW -- IT'S NOT AN INSIGNIFICANT FACT WHETHER IT WAS IN A HOSPITAL OR IN A LONG CARE FACILITY, LONG-TERM CARE FACILITY.

AND AS YOU SAID, THE ISSUES WE NEED TO BE FOCUSING ON NOW, VACCINATIONS, GETTING THEM OUT THERE, MAKING SURE PEOPLE UNDERSTAND WHY IT'S IMPORTANT FOR THEM TO TAKE IT, AND THEN ALSO FOCUSING ON STAFFING.

WE NEED PEOPLE IN THERE.

AND ARRANGING FOR THOSE VISITATION CONTACTS.

BETH, IT'S ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO TALK WITH YOU.

ONCE AGAIN, BETH FINKEL, WHO'S THE STATE DIRECTOR FOR THE NEW YORK OFFICE OF THE AARP.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING US WITH ALL THIS.

YOU BE WELL AND WE'LL TALK AGAIN SOON.

>> YOU TOO, JACK.

♪ THIS IS OUR STORY >>> THE BLACK CHURCH HAS SUSTAINED THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN PEOPLE FROM THE DAYS OF SLAVERY TO THIS DAY.

>> I DON'T KNOW HOW WE COULD HAVE SURVIVED AS A PEOPLE WITHOUT IT.

>> THE ROLE OF MUSIC IN THE BLACK CHURCH IS EVERYTHING.

>> WE HAVE TO HAVE SOME INDIVIDUAL AND INSTITUTIONAL ARMOR IN ORDER TO PRESERVE OUR SANITY.

>> WE ARE A TESTAMENT TO THE GOODNESS AND THE GRACE OF GOD.

>> "THE BLACK CHURCH."

FEBRUARY 16th AT 9:00, 8:00 P.M. CENTRAL.

ONLY ON PBS.

>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JACK FORD.

THAT WAS A QUICK LOOK AT A NEW TWO-PART, FOUR-HOUR PBS DOCUMENTARY TITLED "THE BLACK CHURCH: THIS IS OUR STORY, THIS IS OUR SONG."

THE SERIES, FROM EXECUTIVE PRODUCER AND HOST DR. HENRY LOUIS GATES JR., TRACES THE HISTORY OF THE BLACK CHURCH FROM ITS EARLIEST DAYS AND EXPLORES THE MASSIVE ROLE IT HAS PLAYED IN THE AFRICAN-AMERICAN EXPERIENCE.

THE SERIES ALSO ILLUMINATES HOW FOR GENERATIONS THE BLACK CHURCH HAS USED ITS POWER TO BOTH UPLIFT THE SPIRIT AND TO BRING ABOUT SOCIAL CHANGE.

BUT IT ALSO DOES NOT SHY AWAY FROM SERIOUS CRITIQUES THAT MANY BELIEVE NEED TO BE ADDRESSED IF THE CHURCH IS TO REMAIN RELEVANT FOR YOUNGER GENERATIONS.

JOINING US NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE FILM IS ITS DIRECTOR AND SERIES PRODUCER OF "THE BLACK CHURCH: THIS IS OUR STORY, THIS IS OUR SONG," STACEY HOLMAN.

STACEY, THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, JACK.

THIS IS WONDERFUL.

REALLY GREAT.

I APPRECIATE THE INVITATION.

>> WE ARE THRILLED TO HAVE YOU HERE.

IT'S A MARVELOUS FILM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT CAPTURES THE SOUL AND THE SPIRIT AND THE STORY THAT YOU WANT TO TELL.

BUT LET ME START WITH THESE QUESTIONS ABOUT THAT STORY.

WHY THIS STORY AND WHY NOW?

>> THIS IS ACTUALLY -- GATES HAS AN ARSENAL.

HENRY LOUIS GATES.

>> HE AND I WENT TO COLLEGE TOGETHER.

>> YOU GO WAY BACK.

>> I FEEL PRIVILEGED TO CALL HIM SKIP ALSO.

>> HE HAS AN ARSENAL OF FILM IDEAS HE WANTS TO DO.

AND THIS IS ONE OF THEM.

AND HE'D BEEN HOLDING ON TO IT FOR A WHILE NOW.

AND WE HAD WRAPPED ON RECONSTRUCTION AND THIS WAS THE NEXT ONE IN LINE.

AND I JUST FEEL LIKE, YOU KNOW, RECONSTRUCTION WAS TIMELY AND THIS WAS TIMELY.

EVEN WHEN YOU'RE GOING INTO A FILM, YOU HAVE NO IDEA.

BUT ALSO, THE CHURCH IS VERY CLOSE TO SKIP.

HE HAS VERY FOND MEMORIES OF IT.

IN FACT, WE -- YOU SAW IN THE ACTUAL SERIES, HE GOES BACK HOME TO HIS HOME CHURCH IN PIEDMONT, METHODIST CHURCH IN PIEDMONT -- >> HOW THE FILM STARTS OUT, WITH HIM GOING TO THAT LITTLE TINY CHURCH.

>> YES.

YES.

SO IT'S A PERSONAL STORY FOR SKIP.

SO THAT'S ONE REASON PROBABLY WHY IT MIGHT HAVE TAKEN A WHILE.

WHEN YOU'RE TELLING YOUR OWN PERSONAL STORY, IT TAKES SOME TIME TO KIND OF BE PREPARED TO TELL THAT.

>> YEAH.

LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT THE TITLE BECAUSE I'M ALWAYS FASCINATED HOW CREATORS COME UP WITH THEIR TITLES.

FILMS, BOOKS.

AND IT'S AN INTERESTING STORY, HOW THIS TITLE CAME ABOUT.

TELL US.

>> YEAH.

WELL, SKIP AND I HAD A VERY HEALTHY DEBATE, ARGUMENT DEPENDING ON WHO WAS EAVESDROPPING OR LISTENING IN.

I WANTED "HOW I GOT OVER" AS A TITLE.

BECAUSE I THOUGHT FIRST OF ALL, IT'S A SONG, IT'S MAHALIA JACKSON, IT'S ARETHA FRANKLIN.

HE WANTED "THIS IS MY STORY -- WELL, THIS IS MY STORY, THIS IS MY SONG."

WELL, WHEN YOU HAVE A DEBATE, WHO DO YOU CALL TO BREAK THAT DEBATE?

YOU CALL OPRAH WINFREY.

>> NOT EVERYBODY GETS TO CALL OPRAH WINFREY BUT IF YOU CAN -- >> IF YOU CAN YOU CALL OPRAH.

>> FUDG >> IF YOU CAN, THAT'S WHO YOU CALL.

>> YEAH.

SO HE GOT OPRAH ON THE PHONE, HE SHARED WITH HER.

THEN LITERALLY ON THE ROAD HE GETS A VOICE MAIL WITH OPRAH SINGING "THIS IS OUR STORY, THIS IS OUR SONG."

SO OBVIOUSLY MY CHOICE DID NOT GET PICKED.

OPRAH WENT WITH SKIP'S.

BUT I'M PLEASED.

IT'S A GREAT TITLE AND IT'S A SONG AND SOMETHING EVERYONE CAN RELATE TO AND IS FAMILIAR WITH.

>> AND IT DOES CAPTURE THE FILM.

NOT THAT YOURS WOULD NOT HAVE.

>> BUT THIS ONE DOES -- >> BUT THIS ONE DOES ALSO.

>> YES.

>> LET ME ASK YOU -- AGAIN, BROADER PICTURE OF THE FILM.

AND THIS GOES LITERALLY TO THE VERY END OF THE FILM WHEN SKIP GATES SAYS THAT THE BLACK CHURCH MADE A WAY OUT OF NO WAY.

HOW DOES THE FILM DO YOU THINK CAPTURE THAT KNOT?

>> FROM THE VERY BEGINNING WE START PRETTY MUCH BACK DURING THE MIDDLE PASSAGE.

AND YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE ENSLAVED AFRICANS BEING BROUGHT HERE TO NORTH AMERICA.

STRIPPED OF EVERYTHING.

YOU THINK THEY ARE.

BUT THE ONE THING THEY DID HAVE IS A BELIEF IN GOD.

THEY HAD A BELIEF IN A SPIRIT.

AND WHEN YOU START WITH NOTHING, YOU'RE STRIPPED OF EVERYTHING, THEY INCREDIBLY JUST MADE A WAY OUT OF NO WAY.

THEY TOOK WHAT THEY HAD.

THINGS THAT WERE SAID TO THEM THROUGH THE WORD.

THINGS WERE MANIPULATED THROUGH THE BIBLE.

THEY EVEN USED THAT TO INTERPRET IT IN THEIR WAY AND INTERPRET IT THE RIGHT WAY.

SO FROM ALL THE ELEMENTS THAT WERE AROUND THEM THAT THEY WERE BEING HIT WITH, FOR POSITIVE AND FOR GOOD, THEY MADE THE BLACK CHURCH.

>> LET ME ASK YOU ABOUT SOME OF THE THEMES THAT ARE WOVEN THROUGHOUT THIS STORY.

FROM THE VERY FIRST MOMENT OF THE FILM YOU'RE STRUCK BY THE MUSIC.

TALK ABOUT THE IDEA OF MUSIC AND THE BLACK CHURCH.

>> IT'S -- THEY'RE SYNONYMOUS.

YOU CAN'T HAVE ONE WITHOUT THE OTHER.

AND WE HAVE SOME INCREDIBLE PEOPLE SPEAKING ABOUT THAT.

BUT I MEAN, IF YOU THINK ABOUT IF YOU'RE GOING THROUGH SOMETHING, IF YOU'RE BEING CHALLENGED THROUGH SOMETHING, IF YOU LOOK EVEN JUST HOW AFRICAN-AMERICANS OVER TIME, WHERE THEY SPENT MOST OF THEIR TIME IN THE SOUTH, IN THE FIELDS, WHAT WOULD THEY DO?

THEY WOULD SING.

AND A LOT OF THOSE SONGS HAVE CARRIED OVER INTO THE CHURCH.

AND I FEEL IT'S PART OF THE HEARTBEAT OF THE CHURCH.

IT'S WHAT MOVES IT.

IT HELPS THE SERMON.

LIKE IF YOU CAN'T GET SOMETHING FROM THE WORD YOU'LL GET SOMETHING FROM THE WORSHIP.

YOU'LL GET SOMETHING FROM THE MUSIC.

AND IT WAS IMPORTANT FOR US REALLY TO WEAVE ALL THE DIFFERENT GENRES OF MUSIC OVER TIME BECAUSE IT SPEAKS TO JUST THE GROWTH OF THE CHURCH.

IT SPEAKS TO EVEN SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT THE CHURCH HAS LATER ON.

WE INTERVIEW KIRK FRANKLIN AND THERE WAS PUSHBACK WITH HIM WITH THE HIP-HOP AND EVEN WITH THOMAS DOROTHY AND ROSETTA FOX SPECIFICALLY.

THE PERSPECTIVE THEY GOT IN TERMS OF THE TYPE OF MUSIC THEY WERE BRINGING AND EVEN BRINGING OUT INTO THE WORLD THAT WAS CHRISTIAN MUSIC.

SO IT'S DEFINITELY AN IMPORTANT THREAD WHEN WE SPEAK ABOUT JUST HOW THE CHURCH HAS EVOLVED.

>> WE ARE ONCE AGAIN TALKING WITH STACEY HOLMAN WHO'S PRODUCER AND DIRECTOR OF THE NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY TITLED "THE BLACK CHURCH: THIS IS OUR STORY, THIS IS OUR SONG."

YOU DO TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES.

THIS IS NOT MERELY AN ODE TO THE BLACK CHURCH.

YOU TALK ABOUT THE CHALLENGES THAT THE CHURCH HAS EXPERIENCED.

ONE OF THE ONES I FOUND INTERESTING BECAUSE IT WAS AT A TIME WHEN I WAS IN HIGH SCHOOL AND COLLEGE.

I MENTIONED SKIP AND I WENT TO COLLEGE TOGETHER, AT THE SAME TIME WE WERE THERE WHEN THE BLACK PANTHER TRIAL AT YALE WAS TAKING PLACE IN NEW HAVEN, WHEN PROTESTS WERE TAKING PLACE WITH REGARD TO THE VIETNAM WAR.

AND YOU TALK IN THE FILM ABOUT THAT I GUESS MAYBE CONFLICT IS AN OKAY WORD BETWEEN THE BLACK POWER MOVEMENT AND THE TRADITIONAL BLACK CHURCH.

TALK ABOUT THAT A LITTLE BIT.

>> AT THE TIME WHEN REVEREND DR. KING WAS ASSASSINATED THE CHURCH WAS REALLY AT A CROSSROADS, AND AT THAT POINT THE CHURCH WAS THE EPICENTER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

IT WAS THE HEARTBEAT OF SOCIAL JUSTICE.

AND PEOPLE WERE NOT NECESSARILY FEELING THEY WERE GETTING THE RESULTS BY NON-VIOLENT ACTIVISM.

SO YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FOUND ANOTHER WAY OF CHURCH.

THEY FOUND ANOTHER WAY OF ACTIVISM.

AND YOU SEE THE TENSION BETWEEN THE TWO WHERE PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY LOOKING AT OTHER WAYS TO REALLY -- TO JUSTIFY AND TO FIGHT FOR SOCIAL JUSTICE.

SO THE CHURCH ALWAYS HAS THESE CRUCIAL MOMENTS WHERE IT'S KIND OF LIKE EVEN TODAY, YOU KNOW, WHERE IS THE CHURCH IN TERMS OF BLACK LIVES MATTER?

WHERE IS THE CHURCH -- SOME CHURCHES ARE EVOLVING FROM THAT AND GROWING BUT SOME AREN'T.

BUT IT'S DEFINITELY A QUESTION THAT I THINK AT ANY TIME OF TRIAL A CHURCH NEEDS TO ASK ITSELF, LIKE WHAT ARE WE DOING, WHAT'S OUR PART IN IT?

>> YOU ALSO EXAMINE THE ROLE OF WOMEN IN THE CHURCH.

WHICH IS A COMPLICATED -- MAYBE A BETTER WORD, A COMPLEX ROLE WITHIN THE CHURCH.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>> THE STAINED GLASS CEILING.

YES.

YOU GO TO CHURCHES AND IT WILL BE FILLED WITH WOMEN.

AND I THINK IT'S STILL AN ISSUE THAT MANY DENOMINATIONS ARE DEALING WITH.

THE ROLE OF BLACK WOMEN.

WHO, AGAIN, ARE VERY MUCH INTEGRAL TO THE HEARTBEAT AND TO THE EVERYDAY ACTIVITY AND MANAGEMENT OF THE CHURCH.

YOU KNOW, I THINK -- WE TALK ABOUT IN THE SERIES JUST LIKE JERITA LEE, HOW FAR BACK -- THAT'S LIKE 1800s WITH THE A.M.E. AND EVEN THE PUSHBACK SHE GOT.

SO WOMEN HAVE BEEN INVOLVED IN THE CHURCH.

WOMEN HAVE BEEN SIDELINED BY THE CHURCH.

WOMEN HAVE ATTEMPTED TO BE SILENCED BY THE CHURCH.

BUT WOMEN CONTINUE TO PRESS FOR AGENCY AND TO GROW CONGREGATIONS, TO FORM CONGREGATIONS.

IT WAS REALLY IMPORTANT FOR US TO MAKE SURE THAT WOMEN WERE RECOGNIZED FOR THE SERIES ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THERE'S SO MANY UNSUNG HEROINES IN THE BLACK CHURCH.

>> AMONG THE SHORTCOMINGS THAT YOU TALK ABOUT ARE THE NOTION OF INCLUSIVITY AND SOMETIMES THE ABSENCE OF INCLUSIVITY.

>> YEAH.

>> AND HOW THAT HAS BEEN WOVEN THROUGHOUT THE COURSE OF A CHURCH THAT HAS EMBRACED ESSENTIALLY, SAYING WE NEED TO BE TOGETHER TO SHARE OUR HISTORY.

AND YET THERE ARE SOME WHO HAVE BEEN PUSHED AWAY.

>> I MEAN, ONE THING IS THE CHURCH IS NOT A PERFECT PLACE.

AND IT'S LAYERED AND THERE ARE SO MANY PERSONALITIES AND SO MANY THINGS INVOLVED THAT REALLY MAKE IT UP.

YOU KNOW, IN TELLING THAT STORY, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALSO KIND OF PULLING OUT THE RUG AND SEEING SOME OF THE CHALLENGES THAT CHURCHES HAVE.

NOT ALL BUT SOME.

AND ALSO SOME PEOPLE WHO'VE BEEN IMPACTED BY THAT.

AS YOU KNOW, AND SOME PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN MOVED TO MAKE A CHANGE ABOUT THAT.

DID NOT TURN AWAY FROM THE CHURCH BUT CONTINUED HER FAITH.

DROVE HER FORWARD TO CONTINUE ON WITH HER MISSION, WHICH IS TO FORM AN INCREDIBLE CHURCH IN OAKLAND, CALIFORNIA.

SO IT SPEAKS TO JUST REALLY HOW GOD IS MOVING IN DIFFERENT CIRCLES AND ALSO HOW PEOPLE RESPOND TO GOD'S WORD AND THE BLACK CHURCH HAS MANY LAYERS INTO THAT CONVERSATION.

>> LAST QUESTION.

WE'VE GOT ABOUT TWO MINUTES HERE.

AS SOMEONE WHO HAS CHRONICLED THIS STORY NOW AND LIVED THIS STORY, AT THE END THERE'S MENTION OF DR. KING'S LAST BOOK, WHICH WAS TITLED "WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?"

SO WITH REFERENCE TO THE BLACK CHURCH AND WHAT YOU'VE SEEN, WHAT DO YOU THINK THE ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION IS?

WHERE DOES THE CHURCH GO FROM HERE?

>> OH, I THINK THE CHURCH -- IT DEPENDS AGAIN ON WHAT CHURCH DENOMINATION YOU'RE LOOKING AT.

BUT I THINK IT CONTINUES TO GO FORWARD.

I THINK IT CONTINUES TO SEARCH.

I THINK IT CONTINUES TO GROW.

I THINK IT CONTINUES TO BE CHALLENGED AND TO RISE UP TO THAT CHALLENGE.

THE CHURCH IS IMPORTANT TO BE OPEN TO ALL, PERSONALLY I BELIEVE.

BECAUSE IF YOU LOOK AT WHAT WE WERE DENIED, YOU CAN GO BACK IN HISTORY.

YOU KNOW, THAT WAS THE ONE THING THAT WE WERE REALLY -- THEY DID NOT THINK WE KNEW GOD, AND WE DID KNOW GOD, AND IT WAS THIS TOGETHERNESS, THIS UNITY THAT FORMED THE BLACK CHURCH.

AND I THINK WE NEED TO ALWAYS JUST TURN AND REFLECT ON THAT.

>> WELL, AS CERTAINLY MOVING FORWARD AND YOU LOOK AT GOING BACK WHAT THE STORY HAS BEEN, IT CERTAINLY SETS THE STAGE FOR MOVING FORWARD WITH THE BLACK CHURCH.

AGAIN, THE TITLE OF THE NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY IT'S CALLED "THE BLACK CHURCH: THIS IS OUR STORY, THIS IS OUR SONG."

AND FOLKS, YOU SHOULD MAKE SURE THAT YOU CHECK YOUR LOCAL PBS LISTINGS.

WATCH IT BECAUSE, AGAIN, STACEY HOLMAN, WHO IS PRODUCER, DIRECTOR OF THIS, IT'S A MARVELOUS FILM, IT'S A POWERFUL FILM, IT'S A GREAT WORK OF STORYTELLING.

NOT SURPRISED GIVEN YOUR WORK IN THE PAST AND GIVEN DR. GATES' WORK IN THE PAST.

SO I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR SPENDING SOME TIME WITH US AND WE'LL LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING WITH YOU ABOUT YOUR NEXT PROJECT.

STACEY, YOU BE WELL.

>> YOU BE WELL TOO.

THANK YOU.

>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

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