>>> TONIGHT, EXPLORING ABRAHAM LINCOLN'S COMPLICATED VIEWS ON SLAVERY.

AND THE COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN BLACK AMERICANS AND THEIR RIGHTS ON THE ROAD.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

ABRAHAM LINCOLN IS CONSIDERED ONE OF THE COUNTRY'S GREATEST PRESIDENTS.

HE SAVED THE UNION AND ENDED SLAVERY, THE ACCOMPLISHMENT WHICH EARNED HIM THE TITLE "THE GREAT EMANCIPATOR."

CRITICS AND HISTORIANS HAVE ARGUED FOR DECADES THAT WHILE LINCOLN PLAYED A LARGE PART IN THE EVENTUAL END OF SLAVERY, HE WAS NOT THROUGH MUCH OF HIS POLITICAL CAREER OR EVEN MUCH OF HIS PRESIDENCY A FIERCE ABOLITIONIST.

IN HONOR OF PRESIDENT'S DAY, APPLE TV PLUS IS RELEASING A FOUR-PART NEW DOCUMENTARY ENTITLED "LINCOLN'S DILEMMA" WHICH PRESENTS A MORE NUANCED LOOK AT THE LIFE AND LEGACY OF AMERICA'S 16th PRESIDENT, PARTICULARLY AT HOW HIS EFFORTS TO PRESERVE THE UNION TRUMPED ALL OTHER CONCERNS.

HERE IS A PREVIEW OF THE DOCUMENTARY.

>> LINCOLN WAS CAUGHT BETWEEN TWO POLES OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, THOSE WHO DEMANDED IMMEDIATE EMANCIPATION AND THOSE WHO INSISTED ON REUNIFICATION FIRST EVEN AT THE COST OF PRESERVING SLAVERY.

SOME COMPARED HIM TO A FAMOUS AERIALIST NAMES CHARLES BLONDEN.

>> CHARLES BLONDEN WAS A VISITING, TOURING TIGHTROPE WALKER FROM FRANCE.

HE WENT BACK AND FORTH ACROSS NIAGARA FALLS, 1,200 FEET, NO NET.

AND A LOT OF CARTOONISTS SUDDENLY REALIZED, THIS IS LINCOLN.

ON ONE SIDE, LINCOLN WAS BEING CALLED A DANGEROUS RADICAL WHO WAS GOING TO CAUSE A RACIAL REVERSAL IN AMERICA.

ON THE OTHER SIDE, HE WAS BEING CALLED TOO CAUTIOUS, TOO SLOW ON SLAVERY.

>> AND JOINING US NOW IS THE NARRATOR OF "LINCOLN'S DILEMMA," THE TONY, GOLDEN GLOBE, AND EMMY AWARD WINNING ACTOR WHO WILL ALSO TAKE ON THE ICONIC ROLE OF JIM GORED IN THE UPCOMING "BATMAN" MOVIE, JEFFREY WRIGHT.

JEFFREY, IT'S AN HONOR TO HAVE YOU HERE WITH US.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> JEFFREY, WE HAVE A LITTLE TIME, LET ME GET RIGHT TO IT.

WHAT MOVED YOU TO BECOME PART OF THIS PROJECT?

HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED?

>> I GUESS IT WAS PRETTY SIMPLE.

I LOVE OUR HIFSTORY.

I LOVE THE HISTORY OF AMERICA.

I LOVE THINK DISCOVER THAT THINGS ARE MORE NUANCED AND MORE COMPLEX THAN WE'RE OFTEN LED TO BELIEVE.

AND MOST OFTEN THAT'S THE CASE, WHEN YOU DIG DOWN INTO THE HISTORY, YOU FIND THE NUANCE AND THE DETAIL IS THRILLING, BUT OFTEN OVERLOOKED.

AND I THINK THIS SERIES, WHICH IS A FOUR-PART SERIES COVERING LINCOLN'S PRESIDENCY, DOES THAT QUITE WONDERFULLY.

SO WHEN I WAS ASKED TO BE A PART OF IT, SENT THE FIRST EPISODE, SENT THE SCRIPTS, I CHECKED IT OUT, AND I WAS IN FROM THE START.

AND THEN OF COURSE I THINK LIKE MOST AUDIENCE MEMBERS WILL DO, I IMMEDIATELY STARTED TO GOOGLE ALL -- ANY NUMBER OF THINGS THAT I WASN'T PREVIOUSLY AWARE OF THAT ARE INCLUDED IN THE SERIES.

IT'S REALLY -- IT REALLY LOOKS AT HIS PRESIDENCY AND LOOKS AT HIM AS A MAN THROUGH SOMETHING OF A FRESH LENS.

>> THE SERIES IS CALLED "LINCOLN'S DILEMMA."

WHAT IS OR WHAT WAS LINCOLN'S DILEMMA?

>> WELL, LINCOLN'S DILEMMA IS REALLY MANY THINGS.

IT WAS A DIVIDED COUNTRY, AS WE KNOW.

IT WASN'T DIVIDED SOLELY ACROSS GEOGRAPHICAL LINES, THOUGH.

THERE WERE MEMBERS OF HIS OWN PARTY, THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, WHO WERE ABOLITIONISTS.

THERE WERE SOME WHO WERE LESS SO.

THERE WERE CONSTITUENTS IN THE NORTH WHO HAD ECONOMIC TIES TO THE SOUTH, WHO WERE LIKE, WELL, WAIT, LET'S SLOW DOWN A LITTLE BIT ON UNDERMINING THE ECONOMIC POWER OF THE SOUTH BY ABOLISHING SLAVERY BECAUSE THAT WILL AFFECT OUR EXPORTS OUT OF NEW YORK HARBOR, WHICH WERE MOSTLY COTTON.

AND OF COURSE THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, THOSE STAUNCH PROPONENTS OF SLAVERY IN THE SOUTH THAT HE WAS TRYING TO NEGOTIATE WITH AS WELL.

AND THEN OF COURSE THERE WERE BLACK FOLKS WHO WERE BEARING THE BRUNT OF THE BRUTALITY OF SLAVERY BUT WHO WERE REPRESENTED IN SOME WAYS BY FOLKS LIKE FREDERICK DOUGLASS, A POWERFUL VOICE IN LINCOLN'S EAR, PUSHING HIM TO BE THE PROGRESSIVE WITH A SMALL "P" PRESIDENT THAT WE CELEBRATE TODAY.

SO HE'S TRYING TO NAVIGATE ALL THESE VARIOUS CONSTITUENTS, HE'S NAVIGATING A COUNTRY ON THE BRINK OF WAR, AS HE BECOMES PRESIDENT.

AND SO HIS DILEMMAS ARE MANY.

HOW DOES HE CAPTAIN OUR COUNTRY THROUGH ALL OF THAT, PRESERVE THE UNION, AND ESTABLISH THE BEGINNINGS OF THE COUNTRY THAT, YOU KNOW, WE KNOW AND ENJOY TO SOME EXTENT TODAY.

>> AND IN 1862, IN A LETTER TO HORACE GREELEY, THE EDITOR AND PUBLISHER OF "NEW YORK TRIBUNE" AT THE TIME, LINCOLN FAMOUSLY OR INFAMOUSLY WROTE, QUOTE, IF I COULD SAVE THE UNION WITHOUT FREEING ANY SLAVES, I WOULD DO IT.

AND IF I COULD SAVE IT BY FREEING ALL THE SLAVES, I WOULD DO IT.

AND IF I COULD SAVE IT BY FREEING SOME AND LEAVING OTHERS ALONE, I WOULD DO THAT.

IF LINCOLN REALLY MEANT WHAT HE WAS SAYING, THAT HE ESSENTIALLY CONSIDERS SLAVERY A SECONDARY ISSUE AT BEST COMPARED TO PRESERVING THE UNION, HOW SHOULD WE ASSESS HIM?

WHAT SHOULD WE THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK FOR ME, THE BEST WINDOW FOR THAT ASSESSMENT IS THROUGH FREDERICK DOUGLASS, BECAUSE DOUGLASS TALKS ABOUT THIS VERY SPECIFICALLY IN BOTH HIS EULOGY HERE IN NEW YORK CITY AFTER LINCOLN'S ASSASSINATION, AND HE ALSO TALKS ABOUT IT IN AN INCREDIBLE SPEECH GIVEN AT THE DEDICATION OF THE EMANCIPATION STATUE IN LINCOLN PARK IN WASHINGTON, DC.

AND HE DESCRIBES LINCOLN AS A MAN OF HIS TIME, A WHITE MAN OF HIS TIME, WHO IS BURDENED BY THE RACE PREJUDICES OF MANY, PERHAPS MOST OF HIS FELLOW COUNTRYMEN.

AND HE SPEAKS, SPECIFICALLY, DOUGLASS DOES, TO WHITE AMERICANS, SAYING LINCOLN PRIMARILY WAS YOUR PRESIDENT, THIS IS THE FACT.

BUT ULTIMATELY, HE REGARDS LINCOLN AS AN HONORABLE MAN, BECAUSE HE SAYS, DESPITE THIS, AND HE BEGAN, AS YOU DESCRIBED, AS ANTISLAVERY BUT ONLY TO A EX EXTENT.

WITH HELP FROM PEOPLE LIKE DOUGLASS, WITH PRODDING, WITH THE PRODDING OF THE TIMES, ULTIMATELY HE BECOMES THE PRESIDENT WHO BY EXECUTIVE ORDER SIGNS THE EMANCIPATION PROCLAMATION AND SEES THE RATIFICATION OF THE 13th AMENDMENT, ALSO THROUGH DOUGLASS' PRODDING INCLUDES BLACK AMERICANS ON THE SIDE OF THE UNION FORCES, AND GIVES THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THEIR OWN FIST IN THE FIGHT FOR THEIR OWN FREEDOM.

HE BECOMES -- OR RATHER, HE, AS DOUGLASS DESCRIBED, HE KEEPS HIS PROMISE TO BLACK PEOPLE, DESPITE HIS LIMITATIONS, DESPITE HIS IMPERFECTIONS, THE RESULTS ARE SEEN IN HIS WORK.

AND HIS WORK ARE WHAT INFORM THE NATURE OF OUR COUNTRY TODAY.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE PUSHED THE COUNTRY TOWARD A MORE PERFECT UNION THROUGH HIS PRESIDENCY IN A WAY THAT'S UNDENIABLE.

SO YES, HE WAS A MAN OF THE TIMES.

YES, HE WAS FLAWED.

BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, WE CELEBRATE HIM FOR A REASON.

>> YOU KNOW, IN HIS SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS, I HAD HEARD IT, BUT THIS DOCUMENTARY FOCUSES ON IT, HE'S BASICALLY -- LINCOLN IS BASICALLY MAKING THE ARGUMENT IN THAT SPEECH THAT WHATEVER SUFFERING THE NATION IS UNDERGOING BECAUSE OF THE WAR, WE DESERVE IT, IT'S THE RIGHTEOUS DECREE OF GOD, BECAUSE OF THE SUFFERING WE INFLICTED ON THE SLAVES.

AND SOMEBODY SAID THAT DOUGLASS COULD HAVE WRITTEN THAT.

AND DOUGLASS CALLED IT SACRED.

BUT DOUGLASS, JUST TO GO BACK A LITTLE BIT ON DOUGLASS, HE STARTED OFF AS LINCOLN'S FIERCEST CRITIC.

DID LINCOLN BECOME THE MAN OF THE SECOND INAUGURAL ADDRESS BECAUSE OF DOUGLASS?

>> I THINK TO SOME EXTENT WE HAVE TO SAY YES.

DOUGLASS IS IN SOME WAYS LINCOLN'S EQUAL ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE FENCE.

HE'S NOT PRESIDENT.

YOU MAY CALL DOUGLASS THE PRESIDENT OF BLACK AMERICA.

AND HIS VOICE, BOTH AS AN ORATOR AND AS A WRITER, IS AS POWERFUL AS LINCOLN'S.

AND HE HAD LINCOLN'S EAR.

AND IN FACT, AFTER THAT SECOND INAUGURATION, WE UNDERSTAND DOUGLASS MET WITH HIM AND I BELIEVE THERE WAS THE GOVERNOR FROM A NORTHERN STATE, I FORGET EXACTLY WHO HE WAS, WHO WAS MADE TO WAIT OUTSIDE WHILE LINCOLN -- >> CHATTED WITH DOUGLASS.

>> CHATTED WITH DOUGLASS, ABOUT WHOM HE CALLED "MY FRIEND DOUGLASS."

SO THERE IS NO QUESTION, THE HISTORICAL RECORD SEEMS TO SUGGEST THAT FREDERICK DOUGLASS WAS A SIGNIFICANT INFLUENCE ON THE DIRECTION OF LINCOLN'S PRESIDENCY.

>> WE ONLY HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE LEFT, AND I'VE GOT TO GET THIS IN, YOU TOUCHED ON IT.

THE SERIES MAKES CLEAR THAT THE ONLY PROBLEM WITH CALLING LINCOLN THE GREAT EMANCIPATOR IS THAT IT TAKES AWAY THE CREDIT FROM THOSE WHO REALLY WERE CHIEFLY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE EMANCIPATION, THE SLAVES THEMSELVES PRIMARILY, BUT SPECIFICALLY THE BLACK SOLDIERS WHO FOUGHT IN THE CIVIL WAR.

IN A MINUTE, TELL US THEIR ROLE AND IMPORTANCE IN THE WAR, LESS THAN A MINUTE.

>> OVER 200,000 BLACK SOLDIERS AND SAILORS SERVED IN THE UNION ARMY, AN ENORMOUS NUMBER, 40,000 GAVE THEIR LIVES, MANY, LIKE WITH ALL THOSE WHO PASSED IN THE WAR, DIED OF DISEASE.

BUT 40,000.

200,000.

I WASN'T AWARE THE FIGURE WAS THAT HIGH.

BUT -- BECAUSE THAT PART OF OUR HISTORY IS OFTEN MUTED.

THE CONTRIBUTIONS OF BLACK PEOPLE IN SECURING THEIR OWN FREEDOM.

AND THAT WAS THROUGH DOUGLASS' INFLUENCE AND LINCOLN MADE IT POSSIBLE.

AND IT'S JUST A TESTAMENT TO THE COMPLEXITY OF OUR HISTORY AND THE POWER OF IT.

>> AND IT'S IMPORTANT HOW HARD THEY FOUGHT AND WHAT THEY HAD TO FACE IF CAPTURED.

WE HAVE TO END IT THERE, JEFFREY.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEEING YOU IN THE NEW "BATMAN" MOVIE.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME, RAFAEL.

>>> WHAT USED TO BE AMERICAN IS TO TAKE TO THE ROAD.

>> MOBILITY IS ESSENTIAL TO FREEDOM.

>> DISCOVERY.

>> FREEDOM.

>> THE NOTION OF DRIVING WHILE BLACK REMINDS US THAT THAT'S NOT AVAILABLE TO ALL AMERICANS.

>> TO BE ABLE TO MOVE FREELY.

WE LIVE IN A COUNTRY WHERE IT'S NEVER BEEN EVERYBODY'S RIGHT.

>> THERE ARE STILL SO MANY DANGERS.

>> WE HAVE TO ENGAGE HISTORY WITH A KIND OF BRUTAL HONESTY.

>>> HELLO, I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

YOU KNOW, THE CLIP WE JUST SAW WAS A PREVIEW OF "DRIVING WHILE BLACK," A NEW PBS DOCUMENTARY THAT CHRONICLES THE HISTORY OF THE COMPLEX RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN AFRICAN AMERICANS AND THE AUTOMOBILE.

AND THE SERIES OF PARADOXES THAT THAT RELATIONSHIP HAS ENGENDERED.

FROM SLAVERY TO JIM CROW TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS ERA TO THE PRESENT DAY.

THIS DOCUMENTARY BY ACCLAIMED HISTORIAN DR. GRETCHEN SOREN, AND AWARD WINNING DOCUMENTARIAN RIG BURNS, DESCRIBES HOW THE RIGHTS OF PEOPLE ACROSS AMERICA HAVE BEEN CIRCUMSCRIBED BY RACE.

JOINING US ARE THE FILM'S DIRECTORS, GRETCHEN SOREN AND RICK BURNS.

THANKS FOR JOINING US TODAY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US, RAFAEL.

>> THE AMAZING THING ABOUT THIS FILM IS HOW THIS PARTICULAR SUBJECT YOU COVERED OPENS UP A WINDOW TO ALMOST THE ENTIRE AFRICAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE IN THE COUNTRY.

SO LET ME BEGIN WITH THE OBVIOUS QUESTION.

HOW DID THIS PROJECT COME TO BE?

WHAT WAS ITS GENESIS?

>> I WAS WORKING ON AN EXHIBITION.

I'M AN EXHIBITION CURATOR.

I WAS WORKING ON AN EXHIBITION ON THE HISTORY OF AFRICAN AMERICANS IN SARATOGA SPRINGS, NEW YORK, WHICH IS A RESORT COMMUNITY.

A COLLEAGUE OF MINE HANDED ME A XEROXED PAGE THAT HAD THE COVER OF THE NEGRO MOTORIST GREEN BOOK.

I HAD NEVER HEARD OF IT.

I WAS SURPRISED, AS SOMEONE WHO HAD STUDIED AFRICAN AMERICAN HISTORY, THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING I HAD ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA ABOUT.

AND I WANTED TO KNOW MORE.

SO I REALLY STARTED THE RESEARCH LOOKING THE GREEN BOOK.

AND IT JUST EXPANDED AND EXPANDED AND EXPANDED.

THE MORE I DUG INTO IT.

AND I REALIZED THAT THE GREEN BOOK WAS REALLY JUST A LITTLE PART OF THE STORY.

AND THAT THE STORY WAS REALLY A STORY ABOUT THE AUTOMOBILE AND THE AFRICAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE AND HOW IT WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE WHITE AMERICAN EXPERIENCE WITH THE AUTOMOBILE.

OF COURSE WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE AUTOMOBILE, YOU OPEN UP AN ENTIRE WORLD THAT REALLY TALKS ABOUT TRAVEL AND VACATIONS AND TRANSPORTATION ACROSS THE COUNTRY AND HOW WE DECIDED TO BECOME A NATION OF DRIVERS INSTEAD OF A NATION OF PEOPLE WHO TOOK PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION.

>> RICK, HOW DID YOU GET INVOLVED IN THE PROJECT?

>> I'VE KNOWN GRETCHEN SINCE WE WORKED ON OUR SERIES ON THE HISTORY OF NEW YORK BACK IN THE LATE 1990s.

GRETCHEN WAS A REMARKABLE ON-CAMERA INTERFVIEWEE FOR THAT TALKING ABOUT EARLY NEW YORK.

WE'VE BEEN KIND OF UNINDICTED CO-CONSPIRATORS OVER THE LAST FEW DECADES.

SHE CAME TO ME FIVE YEARS AGO AND SAID, LOOK, RICK, I WANT YOU TO SIT DOWN WITH ME AND LOOK AT THESE IMAGES I HAD.

SHE POPPED OPEN HER LAPTOP AND SHOWED ME IMAGE AFTER IMAGE, LITERALLY HUNDREDS, THOUSANDS OF IMAGES SHE HAD COLLECTED OVER THE YEARS, ABOUT KIND OF LIKE THE AMERICAN ROAD, THE WORLD OF THE AMERICAN CAR AND THE HIGHWAY FROM THE EARLY 20th CENTURY THROUGH THE EARLY 21st CENTURY, IN WHICH WHAT WAS UNCANNY WAS THIS SORT OF DOUBLE EXPERIENCE, THE PARADOXICAL EXPERIENCE, AS YOU WERE SAYING, RAFAEL, IN WHICH IT'S A WORLD THAT, YOU KNOW, WHITE AMERICANS CAN SEE.

THERE ARE THE ROAD SIGNS AND THERE ARE THE HOTELS AND THERE ARE THE RESTAURANTS.

THERE ARE ALSO THESE THINGS WHICH WERE LIKE REALLY SHOCKING TO SEE.

COMING INTO A TOWN IN NORTH CAROLINA, THE KKK RIGHT NEXT TO THE ROTARY CLUB.

ABOVE THE MAIN STREET IN TEXAS.

YOU SEE THAT, LIKE, WOW, THE AMERICAN AUTOMOBILE LANDSCAPE HAS BEEN HAUNTED FROM THE BEGINNING WITH THIS DOUBLE INSCRIPTION, AND THAT THE WAY, AS YOU SAID, RACE AND MOBILITY, HAS BEEN DISTRIBUTED IN AMERICA HAS BEEN UNEQUAL FROM THE START.

GRETCHEN SOLD ME THAT THIS WAS THE TNEXT PROJECT WE WOULD WORK ON, AND WE WORKED ON IT FOR THE NEXT FIVE YEARS.

>> THE FIRST PARADOX OF COURSE IS THE FACT THAT WHILE THE AUTOMOBILE ALLOWED AFRICAN AMERICANS TO LEAVE THE INDIGNITY OF JIM CROW PUBLIC TRANSPORTATION, IT CREATED A WHOLE NEW SET OF PROBLEMS.

REAL FEARS, REAL THREATS ON THE ROAD.

AND A WHOLE NEW SET OF INDIGNITIES.

TALK ABOUT THAT PARADOX.

>> IT WAS DANGEROUS FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS TO GO OUT ON THE ROAD.

IT TOOK A LOT OF COURAGE.

YOU DIDN'T KNOW AS YOU WERE TRAVELING ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHERE YOU WOULD BE WELCOME.

AND ESPECIALLY BEFORE THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM, AFRICAN AMERICANS WOULD HAVE TO DRIVE THROUGH THESE SMALL TOWNS.

YOU NEVER KNOW WHAT YOU COULD ENCOUNTER WHEN YOU WERE GOING THROUGH THESE SMALL TOWNS.

AND THERE WERE MANY STORIES OF PEOPLE WHO, YOU KNOW, DROVE THROUGH A TOWN AND THEY HAPPENED TO COME UPON A LYNCHING OR THEY DROVE THROUGH A TOWN AND THERE WAS AN ANGRY WHITE MOB THAT ACCOSTED THEIR CAR.

SO YOU REALLY DIDN'T KNOW WHAT COULD HAPPEN.

AND IF YOU COULD IMAGINE WHAT WOULD HAPPEN WHEN YOU GOT INTO A CAR ACCIDENT, THERE WERE ONLY 200 AFRICAN AMERICAN HOSPITALS THROUGHOUT THE ENTIRE UNITED STATES.

SO IF YOU WERE IN A CAR ACCIDENT, FIRST OF ALL, THE WHITE PEOPLE WOULD BE TAKEN BY WHITE AMBULANCE BECAUSE THE AMBULANCES WERE SEGREGATED, TO THE HOSPITAL FIRST.

AND ONLY THEN WOULD THE BLACK AMBULANCE BE ALLOWED TO COME IN.

MANY OF THE AMBULANCES WERE CONTROLLED BY THE FUNERAL HOMES.

SO YOU WERE ACTUALLY RIDING IN WHAT WAS CALLED A COMBINATION COACH, WHICH WAS -- IT WAS BOTH AN AMBULANCE AND AN HEARSE THAT COULD BE CONVERTED DEPENDING ON WHETHER THE PERSON IN THE BACK WAS ALIVE OR DEAD.

SO YOU CAN IMAGINE WHAT THAT MUST HAVE BEEN LIKE IF YOU WERE TRAVELING AND YOU HAD TO BE TAKEN TO A HOSPITAL.

AND MANY PEOPLE WENT FROM HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL TO HOSPITAL, BECAUSE NO HOSPITAL WOULD ACCEPT THEM AS AFRICAN AMERICANS.

SO THOSE ARE JUST REALLY A FEW OF THE THINGS THAT HAPPENED.

>> THEN OF COURSE THERE WERE THE INDIGNITIES, BECAUSE IT WAS THE RARE GAS STATION OR RESTAURANT OR HOTEL OR MOTEL THAT AFRICAN AMERICANS COULD PATRONIZE ON AMERICAN ROADS.

BUT THAT BRINGS US TO THE SECOND PARADOX WHICH IS, AS A RESULT OF THAT, A WHOLE NEW NETWORK, AND THIS WAS NEW TO ME, A WHOLE NEW NETWORK OF MOSTLY AFRICAN AMERICAN OWNED BUSINESSES SPROUTED UP ACROSS THE COUNTRY, HOTELS, MOTELS, RESORTS, YOU NAME IT, THAT CREATED A WHOLE NEW POWER BASE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS AND A WHOLE NEW COMMUNITY THAT THE AFRICAN AMERICANS COULD SHARE.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> YES, BECAUSE AFRICAN AMERICANS WANTED TO TRAVEL.

THEY WANTED TO SEE THE COUNTRY.

AND SO IF YOU TRAVELED, YOU NEEDED GUEST HOUSES AND TOURIST HOMES, RESTAURANTS, PLACES TO STOP AND EAT.

AND GAS STATIONS.

AND SO THIS NETWORK, PRIMARILY ON THE EAST COAST TO THE MISSISSIPPI, AND THEN MANY OF THEM WERE ALSO ON THE WEST COAST.

NOT AS MANY WEST OF THE MISSISSIPPI TO THE WEST COAST.

BUT THERE WAS A LARGE NETWORK OF VIBRANT AFRICAN AMERICAN BUSINESSES THAT SERVED THIS MARKET.

THE IRONY IS THOSE BUSINESSES GO OUT OF BUSINESS, MANY OF THEM, MOST OF THEM GO OUT OF BUSINESS WHEN AFRICAN AMERICANS START TO FREQUENT PUBLIC ACCOMMODATIONS THAT ARE OPEN TO EVERYONE.

SO WHEN HILTON HOTEL, WHEN HOWARD JOHNSON'S, ARE NOW AVAILABLE TO AFRICAN AMERICANS, THEY GO BECAUSE THEY CAN, BECAUSE THEY WORKED SO HARD TO BREAK THESE PLACES OPEN.

AND THAT KILLS MANY OF THE BLACK BUSINESSES.

BUT ALSO, AND THIS IS A POINT THAT I THINK RICK MAKES VERY ELOQUENTLY, THAT URBAN RENEWAL DESTROYS SO MANY BLACK COMMUNITIES AND BLACK NEIGHBORHOODS THAT THAT'S ANOTHER WAY THAT THESE BUSINESSES GET TAKEN, THEY GET TAKEN BY EMINENT DOMAIN.

>> RIGHT, SO TALK ABOUT THAT, RICK, TALK ABOUT HOW THE DECISION TO MAKE AMERICA A NATION OF DRIVERS ON THE ONE HAND BY THE CREATION OF THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM WAS A POSITIVE FOR AFRICAN AMERICANS BECAUSE IT MADE TRAVEL SAFER, ON THE OTHER HAND IT HAD THIS EFFECT THAT GRETCHEN JUST TALKED ABOUT.

>> IT'S EXTRAORDINARY.

ALL THE ISSUES THAT HAVE TO DO WITH MOBILITY, HAVE TO DO WITH POWER, HAVE TO DO WITH WHO CONTROLS THE POWER.

THE POWER TO MOVE, WHERE YOU CAN GO, WHEN YOU CAN GO, HOW YOU CAN GO.

AND WHEN THE REMARKABLE 41,000-MILE, EVENTUALLY, LONG INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM STARTS TO BE BUILT IN THE 1950s, THE QUESTION IS WHERE ARE THOSE HIGHWAYS GOING TO BE BUILT.

WHEN ANY OF THEM COME NEAR TOWNS OR CITIES, THERE'S AN ENORMOUS STRUGGLE TO SAY, NOT IN MY BACKYARD.

AND OF COURSE THE BACKYARDS IN WHICH THE INTERSTATE HIGHWAY SYSTEM WAS BUILT WAS ALMOST INVARIABLY IN THE BACKYARDS OF PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO IF YOU JUST TAKE, YOU KNOW, 10, ONE OF THE LEGENDARY INTERSTATE HIGHWAYS, GOES ACROSS THE BOTTOM OF AMERICA, WHERE IT GOES THROUGH, IN NEW ORLEANS, FOR EXAMPLE, IS RIGHT THROUGH THE HEART OF ONE OF THE MOST VIBRANT BLACK COMMUNITIES WHICH NOW HAS VERY, VERY POIGNANTLY PAINTED MURALS ON THE PYLONS OF THE OVERPASSES, THE FIGURES OF THE KIND OF LEGENDARY MEN AND WOMEN WHO WERE THE LEADERS OF THOSE COMMUNITIES, INCLUDING WYNTON MARSALIS' FATHER.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY, THE MARSALIS MOTEL WAS ONE OF THESE FAMOUS WAY STATIONS ALONG THE ROUTE OF THE NEGRO MOTORIST GUIDE ITINERARY IN AMERICA, RIGHT THROUGH CENTRAL AVENUE IN LOS ANGELES.

WHAT YOU FIND IS THAT THE POOR COMMUNITIES, AND THE COMMUNITIES OF COLOR, DID NOT HAVE THE POLITICAL POWER TO PREVENT THE HIGHWAY, INTERSTATE HIGHWAY FROM CRASHING THROUGH THEIR DOMAIN.

>> THE FILM CULMINATES WITH WHAT MOST OF US ARE FAMILIAR, ASSOCIATED WITH DRIVING WHILE BLACK, WHICH IS THE PRESENT DAY, AND THE CONFRONTATIONS BETWEEN THE POLICE AND AFRICAN AMERICAN MOTORISTS.

THIS IS WHERE IN THE DOCUMENTARY THE SCHOLARS STOP TALKING ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS EXPERIENCE AS OBJECTIVE SCHOLARS AND START TALKING ABOUT PARTICIPANTS AND PROTAGONISTS OF THAT STORY.

AND GRETCHEN, YOU'RE ONE OF THEM.

YOU TALK ABOUT THIS EXPERIENCE AS A PARENT.

TELL US ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, MY KIDS GREW UP IN A RURAL AREA, COOPERSTOWN, NEW YORK.

AND IT'S A BEAUTIFUL AREA AND IT'S A GREAT PLACE TO RAISE CHILDREN.

BUT WHEN MY SON TURNED THE AGE TO GET HIS LICENSE, DRIVER'S LICENSE, I HAD TO GIVE HIM THE TALK, THE TALK THAT EVERY AFRICAN AMERICAN PARENT GIVES THEIR CHILD.

AND THAT TALK IS, YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL WHEN YOU'RE STOPPED BY THE POLICE, BECAUSE THE POLICE DON'T SEE YOU AS A GOOD KID.

THEY SEE YOU AS A BLACK KID.

AND IT WAS INTERESTING, MY SON WORKED ON THIS PROJECT AS A CO-PRODUCER FOR THE FIRST THREE YEARS OF ITS LIFE, AND WHEN WE GATHERED ALL OF THE SCHOLARS TOGETHER, HE HEARD SCHOLAR AFTER SCHOLAR AFTER SCHOLAR SAY THE SAME THING.

YOU'VE GOT TO BE CAREFUL.

AND, YOU KNOW, HE NEVER BELIEVED IT, MOM, COME ON, MOM, MOM, I'M OKAY, EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE.

BUT I THINK HE STARTED TO UNDERSTAND THE REAL DANGER FOR AFRICAN AMERICAN -- ESPECIALLY FOR MEN, BUT IT SEEMS NOW IT'S ALSO FOR WOMEN.

WE'VE SEEN SEVERAL EXAMPLES THAT ARE PRETTY FRIGHTENING.

YOU KNOW, THAT WE'RE NOT SAYING -- WE NEVER SAY THAT POLICE ARE BAD.

WE DON'T BELIEVE THAT POLICE ARE BAD.

WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS, YOU DON'T WANT TO ENCOUNTER THAT ONE POLICEMAN OR POLICEWOMAN WHO ONLY SEES THE COLOR OF YOUR SKIN AND DOESN'T -- AND IS AFRAID OF YOU FOR THAT REASON, IS TERRIFIED OF YOU, MORE TERRIFIED OF YOU PERHAPS THAN YOU ARE OF THEM.

>> IN THE FILM YOU SAY AT SOME POINT THAT YOU'RE HOPEFUL, SOMETIMES YOU'RE HOPEFUL AND SOMETIMES YOU DON'T HAVE SO MUCH HOPE.

WHAT GIVES YOU HOPE AND WHAT TAKES IT AWAY?

>> THAT'S A BRILLIANT QUESTION.

YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT ACCOMPLICES LIKE RICK BURNS ARE WILLING TO SAY, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS.

THERE ARE TIMES IN AMERICAN HISTORY WHEN WHITE AMERICANS HAVE JOINED WITH AFRICAN AMERICANS TO TRY AND MAKE CHANGE.

AND THAT'S REALLY ONE OF THE KIND OF THINGS THAT GIVES ME HOPE.

EVERY TIME I SEE OR HEAR OF ANOTHER BLACK MAN BEING MURDERED BY THE POLICE, MY HEART SINKS A LITTLE BIT.

I THINK, WHEN WILL THIS STOP, WHEN WILL THIS STOP BEING JUST A REGULAR PART OF OUR EXISTENCE.

>> LET'S HOPE IT STOPS SOON.

UNFORTUNATELY WE HAVE TO STOP, BECAUSE WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

THANK YOU BOTH FOR TALKING WITH US TODAY, IT'S A WONDERFUL DOCUMENTARY.

>> THANK YOU, RAFAEL.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING US.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --