>>> THE SANTOS SAGA.

AT THE TIME OF THIS RECORDING, GEORGE SANTOS SAT ON TWO CONGRESSIONAL COMMITTEES, BUT HE HAS SINCE TEMPORARILY RECUSED HIMSELF FROM THOSE SEATS.

TONIGHT, YOU WILL LEARN ABOUT HIS SHOCKING PAST FROM THE JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE BEEN HOT ON HIS HEELS THE ENTIRE WAY.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

LAST SEPTEMBER, A SMALL PAPER ON LONG ISLAND, THE "NORTH SHORE LEADER" PUBLISHED AN EXPOSE ON REPUBLICAN CANDIDATE FOR CONGRESS, GEORGE SANTOS, REVEALING THAT SANTOS INVENTED PARTS OF HIS PERSONAL STORY, BUT IT WASN'T UNTIL AFTER SANTOS' ELECTION AND A "NEW YORK TIMES" INVESTIGATION THAT THE CONGRESSMAN'S STORY BEGAN TO FULLY UNRAVEL AND GAIN WIDESPREAD ATTENTION.

"THE TIMES" REPORTED THAT SANTOS LIED ABOUT HIS EDUCATION, HIS WORK HISTORY, HIS PERSONAL WEALTH, HIS SUPPOSED CHARITABLE WORK, AND MORE, AND IT WAS ANOTHER MEDIA OUTLET, THE FORWARD, THAT EXPOSED SANTOS' FALSE CLAIMS THAT HE HAD JEWISH HERITAGE AND THAT HIS GRANDPARENTS FOR HOLOCAUST SURVIVES.

SANTOS IS FACING CALLS FROM REPUBLICANS ON LONG ISLAND TO RESIGN AND BEYOND, NOT TO MENTION MANY LOCAL, STATE, AND FEDERAL INVESTIGATIONS.

BIG QUESTIONS REMAIN -- WHY DID THE INITIAL REPORTING ON SANTOS NOT REACH A BIGGER AUDIENCE.

WHAT IS HIS FUTURE IN CONGRESS?

AND IN THIS AGE OF SHRINKING LOCAL MEDIA, HOW CAN WE BE SURE THIS KIND OF THING WON'T HAPPEN MORE AND MORE.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT ALL OF THESE ARE THE JOURNALISTS WHO WERE AMONG THE FIRST TO REPORT ON GEORGE SANTOS AND HIS LIES.

FIRST I'D LIKE TO WELCOME TO THE SHOW GRANT LALLY, THE PUBLISHER OF THE "NORTH SHORE LEADER," THE FIRST OUTLET TO REPORT THE MULTIPLE FALSEHOODS SANTOS WAS SELLING THE VOTERS.

GRANT.

I'D ALSO LIKE TO WELCOME GRACE ASHFORD, ONE OF THE "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER WHO IS DUG INTO THE STORY AND BROKE THE STORY NATIONALLY.

GRACE, GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON "METROFOCUS."

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, JENNA.

GREAT TO BE HERE.

>> AND OF COURSE WE'D ALSO LIKE TO WELCOME JODI RUDOREN, THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF IF FORWARD, WHICH FIRST INVESTIGATED AND EXPOSED SANTOS' LIES ABOUT HAVING A JEWISH BACKGROUND.

JODI, IT'S GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, JENNA.

>> FIRST OFF, A STORY LIKE THIS -- AND GRANT I WANT TO START WITH YOU.

WHERE DID THIS FIRST COME ON TO YOUR RADAR?

WAS THERE ANYTHING ABOUT SANTOS THE CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE THAT MADE YOU AND YOUR NEWSROOM GO, WAIT A SECOND?

>> EXACTLY, REALLY RIGHT FROM THE START, WHICH WAS THREE YEARS AGO, I SAT DOWN WITH HIM FOR AN HOUR AND A HALF FOR A LUNCH MEETING INTERVIEW, AND HE WAS ODD RIGHT FROM THE START.

THERE WAS -- THERE WAS -- THERE WAS A LOT WRONG.

AND HE WAS BRAGGING, HE WAS BRAG GUY ABOUT HIS WEALTH.

AT THE TIME HE WAS ONLY ABOUT 31 YEARS OLD, AND CARRYING HIMSELF MORE LIKE A GIDDY HIGH SCHOOL KID THAN WHAT HE WAS CLAIMING TO BE, WHICH WAS A VERY SUCCESSFUL FINANCE MULTIMILLIONAIRE.

IT DIDN'T SIT.

I ASKED HIM SOME QUESTIONS, AND JODI DID GREAT RESEARCH TO SORT OF -- WHICH VERIFIED IT.

YOU BY ASKED HIM ABOUT HIS HERITAGE.

HE'S BRAZILIAN, HE'S IN FINANCE.

I ASSUMED AT THE TIME BECAUSE I KNOW SOME BRAZILIANS IN BUSINESS AND LAW DOWN THERE, AND MANY OF THEM ARE OF LEBANESE OR SYRIAN, SO I ASSUMED HE PROBABLY HAD SOME BACKGROUND.

BUT WHEN I ASKED HIM THAT QUESTION, HE HAD NO IDEA WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT.

IF YOU'RE IN FINANCE IN BRAZIL YOU'RE DEALING WITH THEM.

THESE ARE THE LEADING BUSINESS FAMILIES DOWN THERE.

HE DIDN'T HAVE ANY IDEA WHAT I WAS TALKING ABOUT, WHICH TOLD ME THERE'S SOMETHING OFF.

BUT HE DID SAY THAT HE WAS PORTUGUESE AND A LITTLE BELGIAN AND CATHOLIC, SO, YOU KNOW, A YEAR LATER WHEN HE SUDDENLY PROCLAIMED HIMSELF JEWISH, I KNEW THAT WAS A LIE.

>> SO THEN, GRACE, I WANT TO GO TO YOU, BECAUSE OF COURSE BUILDING OFF THIS STORY I'M ASSUMING YOU WERE ASSIGNED THIS, BUT WHEN YOU STARTED TO SCRATCH BELOW THE SURFACE, WHAT STOOD OUT TO YOU AS, LIKE, WAIT A SECOND?

>> YEAH, SO IT'S REALLY INTERESTING.

GRANT WAS OBVIOUSLY COMING AT THIS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF LONG ISLAND, FROM ACTUALLY MEETING WITH MR. SANTOS.

WE SORT OF CAME AT IT COMPLETE OPPOSITE, THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, MY EDITOR SAID, WE'VE GOT THIS NEW CONGRESSMAN OUT ON LONG ISLAND.

HE'S YOUNG, HE'S GAY, YOU KNOW, HE'S THE SON OF IMMIGRANTS.

HE'S GOT THIS REALLY INTRIGUING STORY.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHO IS HE?

LET'S FIND OUT A LITTLE MORE ABOUT HIM.

LET'S DO A PROFILE.

MICHAEL GOULD AND I STARTED DIGGING IN, AND SORT OF A SIMILAR THING HAPPENED, BUT JUST FROM LOOKING AT HIS CHANGING BACKGROUND, THE WAY HE DESCRIBED HIS CAREER ON HIS CAMPAIGN WEBSITE, AND, YOU KNOW, LOOKING AT ONE OF THE KEY THINGS I NOTICED WAS HE CLAIMED HE RAN A PET CHARITY THAT WAS A 501 C 3 THAT THE IRS DIDN'T SEEM TO HAVE ANY RECORD OF.

THAT GAVE ME THE SENSE I NEEDED TO TAKE EVERYTHING HE SAID WITH MORE SCRUTINY.

EVENTUALLY I TURNED TO MY COLLEAGUE AND SAID, I KNOW IT SOUNDS WHACKY, BUT CHECK WITH GOLDMAN SACHS AND CITI GROUP.

I THINK IT'S OVERKILL, BUT MIGHT AS WELL.

THAT ENDED UP BEING THE KEY BUILDING BLOCK FOR US.

WE LATER FOUND OUT THAT IN FACT HE HAD NOT GRADUATED FROM EITHER OF THE SCHOOLS HE TOLD PEOPLE HE GRADUATED FROM, AND IN FACT, HE HAD SPENT TIME IN BRAZIL, AND THERE WERE CRIMINAL CHARGES THAT WERE KIND OF STILL PENDING AGAINST HIM THERE.

THAT WAS KIND OF THE FIRST KIND OF JENGA BLOCK THAT FELL.

>> JODI, AT THIS POINT SO MANY LIES HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED, BUT FOR YOU, I'M WONDERING, ONE OF THE FIRST ONES THAT SEEMED TO BE THE MOST EGREGIOUS TO THE PUBLIC WAS THE FACT THAT HE IN FACT WAS NOT JEWISH THE WAY HE CLAIMED, NOR DID HE HAVE GRANDPARENTS WHO SURVIVED THE HOLOCAUST.

HOW DID YOUR PAPER UNCOVER THAT?

>> I'M KIND OF LIKE GRACE.

I THINK WE WEREN'T PAYING ATTENTION TO THIS RACE IN PARTICULAR.

YOU KNOW, HE HAD RUN TWO YEARS BEFORE AND HAD GOTTEN TROUNCED.

WASN'T ON OUR RADAR.

AND THEN WHEN WE WON WE WERE LIKE, OH, THAT DISTRICT FLIPPED IT HAD BEEN A BLUE DISTRICT.

IT CHANGED.

NOW HE WAS ONE OF JUST A HANDFUL OF JEWISH REPUBLICANS IN ELECTED OFFICE ANYWHERE, SO WE WERE LIKE, OH, WE SHOULD LOOK INTO HIM, AND OUR POLITICAL REPORTER REACHED OUT FOR AN INTERVIEW AND NEVER HEARD BACK.

THEN GRACE AND MICHAEL'S STORY LANDED.

I REMEMBER READING IT.

I WORKED "THE NEW YORK TIMES" FOR A LONG TIME.

IT WAS LIKE, HE LEAD ABOUT THIS, HE LIED ABOUT -- IT WAS ASTOUNDING HOW MANY THINGS ON THIS RESUME WERE MADE UP, AS WELL AS CAMPAIGN FINANCE VIOLATIONS THAT HAVE BEEN EXPOSED.

IT'S INTERESTING OUR COLLEAGUES AT THE JEWISH TELEGRAPH AGENCY THAT DAY PUBLISHED A STORY OR THAT MORNING THAT SAID, DID HE ALSO LIE ABOUT HIS JEWISH BACKGROUND?

AND THAT'S WHAT WE WERE ALL WONDERING.

ONE OF OUR CONTRIBUTORS, ANDREW SILVERSTEIN, A HISTORY BUFF -- HE RUN A WALKING TOUR COMPANY OF HISTORIC NEW YORK, AND HE HAD RECENTLY BEEN WORKING ON A GENEALOGY, USING A LOT OF GENEALOGY WEBSITES TO LOOK INTO HOLOCAUST SURVISURVIVORS' ALSO HIS OWN PERSONAL STORY.

HE KNEW HOW TO DO THIS.

JUST AS SOON AS HE READ THE "NEW YORK TIMES" STORY HE'S LIKE, LET'S FIND OUT.

IT WAS THE OPENING LINE ON THE ABOUT GEORGE PAGE OF HIS WEBSITE SAID SANTOS' GRANDPARENTS FLED ANTI-JEWISH PERSECUTION IN BELGIUM AND THEN UKRAINE BEFORE WORLD WAR II.

HE'S LIKE, THERE SHOULD BE A MANIFEST THAT SHOWS THEM GOING FROM THOSE PLACES.

INSTEAD, HE FOUND RECORDS DOCUMENTING THOSE VERY SAME GRANDPARENTS WERE BORN IN BRAZIL IN 1927 AND 1918, A LOT BEFORE HITLER'S RISE AND THE ANTI-JEWISH PERSECUTION BECAME SO BAD SOME WE PUBLISHED THAT STORY TWO DAYS BEFORE "THE TIMES", AND I THINK -- "THE TIMES" PUBLISHED THIS INCREDIBLE LITANY OF LIES, AND WE CAME BEHIND IT TO SHOW JUST THE MOST -- THE GROSSEST OF THE LIES, THE SORT OF IMMORAL, INHUMANE LIE THAT I THINK WAS JUST SO OFFENSIVE.

AND THE FACT THAT IT WAS NOT ISOLATED.

IT WAS NOT SOME STRANGE, WEIRD THING, BUT A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR WHO ALSO MAKES UP A HOLOCAUST STORY JUST, I THINK, HIT PEOPLE IN THE GUT.

>> GRANT, I WANT TO GO BACK TO YOU, BECAUSE OF COURSE THE QUESTION THAT SO MANY PEOPLE ARE ASKING IN HINDSIGHT NOW IS HOW DIDN'T MORE PEOPLE KNOW?

WHY WASN'T THIS MORE WIDESPREAD INFORMATION?

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, TELL US A LITTLE BIT ABOUT YOUR PAPER AND ALSO WHAT AT LEAST WAS THE REACTION WHEN YOU FIRST PUBLISHED?

>> "NORTH SHORE LEADER" IS A 77-YEAR-OLD WEEKLY NEWSPAPER.

IT'S BEEN PUBLISHING ON THE NORTH SHORE OF LONG ISLAND OUT OF LOCUST VALLEY.

IT'S A RESPECTED INSTITUTION, BUT IT'S A SMALL PAPER.

WE HAVE ROUGHLY 20 WRITERS.

EVERYBODY'S PART-TIME.

AND THE REASON WE WERE -- WE COVERED SANTOS IS BECAUSE WE WERE IN HIS CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT.

WE SAW HIM, AND WE HEARD STORIES, BECAUSE WE'RE CLOSE TO THE GROUND.

WE HEAR PEOPLE COME IN, AND THEY WOULD TELL US STORIES ABOUT THE RIDICULOUS LIES THAT HE WOULD TELL OR THE RIDICULOUS BRAGGING OR THE BIZARRE SHOPPING TRIPS OR TAKING SOMEONE ON A TOUR OF THE NORTH SHORE POINTING OUT THE MANSIONS THAT HE CLAIMED TO OWN BUT DIDN'T OWN.

SO ALL OF THAT -- YOU KNOW, AFTER A WHILE IT ADDED UP.

THEN WE STARTED ANALYZING HIS CAMPAIGN FINANCE FILINGS, WHICH SHOWED HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY BEING ALLEGEDLY RAISED AND SPENT, BUT ON THE GROUND THERE WAS NOTHING.

I MEAN, LITERALLY NOTHING.

NOT A LAWN SIGN, NOT A CAMPAIGN OFFICE, NOT A MAILER, NOT A TV AD.

SO WE WENT THROUGH HIS CAMPAIGN FILINGS THAT SAID HE SPENT $1.5 MILLION, AND THERE WASN'T A PENNY SPENT PRIOR TO LABOR DAY.

WE LOOKED AT HIS PERSONAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURES, WHICH WHERE HE CLAIMED HE WAS WORTH NOTHING IN 2020, LESS THAN $5,000, AND JUST TWO YEARS LATER HE'S WORTH $11 MILLION.

SO -- AND ONE OF IT ADDED UP, SO WE KNEW HE WAS LYING.

>> THE RESPONSE, THOUGH -- BECAUSE I FEEL LIKE THE QUESTION THAT SO MANY PEOPLE KEEP ASKING, AS MORE STILL SEEMS TO BE COMING OUT ABOUT THE CONGRESSMAN, IS HOW DID -- WHY WASN'T THIS MORE WELL KNOWN?

AND ON TOP OF THAT, WE DON'T HAVE SOMEBODY FROM THE OPPOSITION CAMPAIGN BUCK WHERE WAS THE OPPO RESEARCH?

SEEMS LIKE THIS WAS ALL RIGHT THERE, YET IT WAS NEWS TO EVERYONE UNTIL AFTER THE ELECTION.

>> TO BE HONEST, A LOT OF IT WAS NEWS TO ME.

WE KNEW HE WAS A LIAR.

WE KNEW HE WAS A PATHOLOGICAL LIAR, BUT WE ACTUALLY JOKED AT ONE POINT, SOMEONE IN THE OFFICE SAID, WHAT IF HE DIDN'T GO TO BARUCH COLLEGE?

WE ALL LAUGHED AND SAID, NO, I'M SURE HE WENT.

SO THE EXTRAVAGANCE OF THE LIES WAS BREATH TAING TO ALL OF US.

I GIVE GRACE AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES" CREDIT FOR DIGGING DEEP AND DOING GOOD JOURNALISM AND EXPOSING ALL OF THIS.

WE'RE IN THE AGE OF THE GRIFTER.

THIS IS SAMUEL BANKMAN-FRIED'S AGE, AND YOU HAVE TO WATCH AND DON'T TRUST ANYTHING.

YOU KNOW, YOU NEED TO VERIFY.

>> SO, GRACE, COMING AT THIS FROM THE PERSPECTIVE OF JUST AN INTERNATIONALLY WELL RESPECTED AND MORE IMPORTANTLY ALSO, WELL KNOWN NEWSPAPER, HOW DUH SEE THE BREAKDOWN OF THIS, AT LEAST FROM A JOURNALISM PERSPECTIVE?

THE FACT THAT THIS HAPPENED TO COME ACROSS YOUR DESK, BUT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" CAN'T POSSIBLY INVESTIGATE EVERY CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE IN EVERY DISTRICT.

>> IT'S TRUE.

THERE ARE INDIVIDUAL RACES THAT THE NEWS ESTABLISHMENT DECIDES ARE IMPORTANT HERE IN NEW YORK.

THOSE WERE MANY OF THE RACES IN THE HUDSON VALLEY I KNOW I COVERED CLOSELY, AND UPSTATE, BECAUSE WE KNEW THAT NEW YORK WAS GOING TO BE CONSEQUENTIAL, BUT WE DIDN'T KNOW OBVIOUSLY THAT NEW YORK WAS GOING TO REALLY BE THE MARGIN OF VICTORY FOR REPUBLICANS IN THE HOUSE AND THIS WAS JUST SORT OF ONE OF THE RACES THAT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS -- CLEARLY IT WAS ON THE LIST OF RACES TO PAY ATTENTION TO, BUT IT JUST DIDN'T KIND OF RISE TO THE TOP, AND ALSO PART OF THAT HAS TO DO WITH THE FACT THAT IT WAS NOT ONE OF THE RACES NATIONALLY THE GROUPS WERE SPENDING MONEY MORE.

IN RETROSPECT, THIS IS ALSO VERY INTERESTING.

WHY WEREN'T NATIONAL REPUBLICANS SPENDING MORE ON BEHALF OF GEORGE SANTOS?

AND THERE'S BEEN REPORTING ABOUT QUESTIONS AND OBVIOUSLY THE KIND OF QUESTIONS THAT WERE SWIRLING ON LONG ISLAND THAT GRANT IS SPEAKING TO, I THINK,EN WHY, PLAYED A ROLE.

BUT WHEN WE KIND OF APPROACHED IT, OBVIOUSLY WE READ WHAT WE COULD FIND.

I CALLED GRANT, ACTUALLY, SHORTLY AFTER MY STORY PUBLISHED TO SAY, I SAW YOUR STORY, IT WAS GREAT.

THE FACT THAT IT DIDN'T GET PICK UP IN NEWS DAY, WHICH IS A GREAT PAPER, YOU CAN SEE THE WAY IN WHICH THE MEDIA ECOSYSTEM IS BEING HOLLOWED OUT.

DOESN'T GET PICKED UP BY ""NEWSDAY"".

WE DIDN'T SEE IT.

WE HAPPEN TO BE LUCKY WE WERE GIVEN THE TIME, THAT MY EDITOR SAID, YOU CAN HAVE ANOTHER WEEK, BECAUSE HE STILL DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.

BUT THAT'S THE PRIVILEGE OF WORKING AT "THE NEW YORK TIMES" BECAUSE YOU HAVE EIGHT WEEKS -- OR I THINK THIS WAS SIX WEEKS -- WORKING ON SOMETHING.

I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO THE DIFFICULT PLACE JOURNALISM IS IN TODAY.

>> I JUST REALLY WANT TO UNDERSCORE THAT IF I CAN, JENNA.

A FEW THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, THE DEMOCRATS PRESUME THIS WAS A DEMOCRATIC DISTRICT.

THEY HAD AN 87-PAGE MEMO WITH A LOT OF QUESTIONS ABOUT SANTOS THEY DIDN'T DIG INTO INTO FOLLOW UP ON.

THE REPUBLICANS ASSUMED IT WAS A DEMOCRATIC DISTRICT AND DIDN'T -- THERE WAS A SKIPPED STEP IN THEIR VETTING PROCESS.

GEORGE SAID HE HAS 20 PART-TIME WRITERS, THEIR EARS ARE CLOSE TO THE GROUND.

THEY MANAGED TO SURFACE A LOT OF THE QUESTIONS ABOUT SANTOS, BUT THEY DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DIG IN AND NAIL THE ANSWERS, AND THAT'S -- AND THEN AS GRACE SAID IN "NEWSDAY," WHICH HAS A LOT SMALLER STAFF THAN IT DID A SHORT TIME AGO, DIDN'T EITHER DIG IN.

THE FACT IS, A QUARTER OF LOCAL NEWSPAPERS HAVE CLOSED IN THE LAST 15 YEAR SBEFS HALF THE WORKING REPORTERS IN THIS COUNTRY WE USED TO.

SO VERY FEW PLACES HAVE WHAT GRACE AND "THE NEW YORK TIMES" HAVE, WHICH IS THE LUXURY OF TIME TO DO THE REPORTING THAT WE NEED TO SAFEGUARD OUR DEMOCRACY.

I'M NOT EXAGGERATING.

EVERYBODY SEES NOW THAT THIS REPORTING WAS CRITICAL AND SHOULD HAVE BEEN DONE BEFORE THE ELECTION, AND THE WAY -- UNLESS PEOPLE INVEST MORE IN LOCAL NEWSROOMS, IN NONPROFIT NEWSROOMS, UNLESS THEY SUBSCRIBE TO THEIR LOCAL PAPERS AND SPEND MONEY TO PAY OUR SALARIES, WE WILL NOT HAVE THE REPORTING THAT WE NEED, AND WE WILL END UP WITH MORE OUTRAGEOUS SITUATIONS LIKE THIS.

SO, I MEAN, WE'RE NOT -- WE'RE NOT -- WE ARE CULPABLE.

WE ALL FEEL -- AS PROUD AS WE ARE ABOUT THE REPORTING WE'VE DONE, I THINK WE ALL FEEL TERRIBLE ABOUT THE FACT THAT IT WAS DONE AFTER THE ELECTION.

AND EVERYBODY -- IT'S A MASSIVE SYSTEMIC PROBLEM.

THERE'S A LOT OF QUESTIONS AROUND DEMOCRACY AND THE THREATS TO DEMOCRACY, AND THERE ARE MANY BUT THE WITHERING OF THE INDEPENDENT REPORTING ECOSYSTEM THAT WE ARE ALL, LIKE, PROUDLY HANGING ON TO AND PART OF, IS A BIG THREAT TO DEMOCRACY.

>> GRANT, GIVEN ALL OF THAT, THEN IT BECOME A QUESTION OF, NOW WHAT?

WE KNOW THAT LONG ISLAND REPUBLICANS HAVE CALLED FOR SANTOS TO STEP DOWN, BUT HE'S DEFIANTLY SAID, THE VOTERS VOTED FOR ME, AND I WILL SERVE OUT MY TERM.

WHAT SENSE ARE YOU GETTING FROM YOUR READERS ABOUT HOW THEY FEEL ABOUT HAVING GEORGE SANTOS AS THEIR REPRESENTATIVE IN CONGRESS?

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, DO THEY TRUST HIM?

>> NOBODY TRUSTS GEORGE SANTOS.

EVERYONE IS DISGUSTED WITH AND BY GEORGE SANTOS.

EVERYONE WANTS HIM GONE.

HE'S A LIAR AND A SOCIOPATH.

HE'S GETTING A THRILL OVER ALL THE ATTENTION HE'S GETTING BY THIS COVERAGE.

YOU SEE IT WITH THE SMILES HE GIVES AND THE WEIRD ANSWERS HE'S GIVE AS HE WALKING AROUND CAPITOL HILL.

HE'S NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

HE'S GOING TO HAVE TO BE REMOVED AND IT TAKES A TWO-THIRDS VOTE OF THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

I TALKED WITH A NUMBER OF MEMBERS OF CONGRESS.

I RAN MYSELF EIGHT YEARS AGO FOR CONGRESS, SO I KNOW THE PEOPLE INVOLVED.

AND, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE ARE GETTING READY.

THEY'RE WAITING FOR THE SHOE TO DROP.

THEY'RE WAITING FOR AN INDICTMENT TO COME DOWN, A CRIMINAL CHARGE TO BE FILED, AND AT THAT POINT THEY'RE GOING TO EXPEL HIM, AND THAT COULD BE AS SOON AS THREE OR FOUR WEEKS FROM NOW.

>> OKAY, WELL SPEAKING OF THOSE CRIMINAL INDICTMENTS, GRACE, CAN YOU FILL US IN ON AT LEAST WHAT MAY OR MAY NOT LAND THE CONGRESSMAN IN HANDCUFFS?

>> YES, YES, AND JUST TO CLARIFY, NO INDICTMENTS AT THIS POINT.

THERE ARE SEVERAL INQUIRIES.

OTHER THAN -- SO, THERE IS THE -- THERE ARE A COUPLE OF LOCAL DISTRICT ATTORNEYS IN NEW YORK THAT HAVE INDICATED THEY'RE LOOKING AT HIM.

THE NEW YORK STATE ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES INDICATED SHE'S TAKING A LOOK.

ONE OF THE KEY ONES I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE THEIREN EYE ON IS THE PROBE TAKING ON THE CASE.

THERE HAVE BEEN COMPLAINTS FILED, OR AT LEAST ONE COMPLAINT FILED WITH THE FEC BY THE CAMPAIGN LEGAL CENTER ABOUT SOME VERY UNUSUAL KIND OF PATTERNS IN THE FILINGS THAT GRANT ALLUDED TO A LITTLE BIT.

AS WELL AS SEVERAL COMPLAINTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE TO THE VARIOUS ETHICS COMMISSIONS WITHIN THE ACTUAL HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES.

AND, YOU KNOW, THE WAY THAT THOSE ARE BEING METED OUT CHANGED A LITTLE BIT.

THERE'S BETTER RULE CHANGE THAT WAS VOTED ON EARLIER IN THIS SESSION.

SO IT'S NOT REALLY CLEAR.

A LOT OF THOSE THINGS ARE PROBABLY PRETTY SLOW MOVING.

BUT ON TOP OF THAT YOU ALSO HAVE -- WE REPORTED A WEEK OR SO AGO, THE S.E.C.

HAD BEEN LOOKING SEVERAL MONTHS AGO INTO MR. SANTOS' PARTICIPATION IN THIS PONZI SCHEME COMPANY BEFORE HE WAS ELECTED TO OFFICE.

THERE'S BEEN REPORTING THAT MAYBE MORE INTERVIEWS HAVE BEEN DONE THERE.

AND THEN OF COURSE THE CRIMINAL CHARGES IN BRAZIL FROM MANY, MANY YEARS AGO, STEMMING FROM WHEN HE WAS, I THINK, 19 YEARS OLD, AND HE STOLE A CHECKBOOK BELONGING TO HIS MOTHER'S EMPLOYER, USED IT TO WRITE A COUPLE BAD CHECKS TO BUY SOME THING AT A SHOP, INCLUDING A PAIR OF SHOES, AND LATER ENDED UPCOMING INTO THE POLICE WITH HIS MOTHER, AND BOTH OF THEM CONFESSING.

BUT AS THAT CASE WAS WINDING ITS WAY THROUGH THE BRAZILIAN LEGAL SYSTEM, IT WAS PUT ON HOLD BECAUSE AT A CERTAIN POINT THEY WERE NOT ABLE TO FIND MR. SANTOS, AND OUR REPORTING FINDS THAT AT SOME POINT HE RETURNED TO NEW YORK AND KIND OF RE-BEGAN HIS LIFE HERE.

HE'S HIRED A LOCAL ATTORNEY AND HE'LL BE PRESENTING A DEFENSE.

>> I'M ALSO WONDERING, AND JODI, MAYBE YOU CAN WEIGH IN ON THIS.

THERE SEEMS TO BE A MALAISE SETTING IN FOR AT LEAST SOME PEOPLE, SOME VOTERS IN THE SENSE THAT, TO ONE DEGREE OR ANOTHER, ALL POLITICIANS LIE, AND ON TOP OF THAT, THERE'S ALSO THE FACT THAT OUR ATTENTION IN THE NEWS CYCLE SEEMS TO MOVE SO FAST.

DO YOU SEE A POSSIBILITY WHERE WE COULD JUST SORT OF MOVE ON FROM THIS AND THIS JUST BE THIS WEIRD THING THAT HAPPENED AT THE END OF '22, BEGINNING OF 2023, BUT NOW WE'RE ON TO THE NEXT CRISIS?

>> I MEAN, I'LL TRY TO TEASE OUT A FEW OF THOSE THINGS.

FIRST OF ALL, I DO FEEL PEOPLE ARE VERY CYNICAL FOR THE POLITICIANS AND THE TRUTH AND FRANKLY JUSTIFIABLY SO.

WE DO SEE A LOT OF POLITICIANS LYING.

BUT THIS REALLY DOES FEEL TOTALLY DIFFERENT FROM THAT TO ME.

I THINK WE SEE POLITICIANS ROUTINELY SORT OF FUDGING EXACTLY WHAT THEY THINK ABOUT SOMETHING OR WHETHER THEY MADE A DEAL ABOUT SOMETHING.

WE DON'T SEE PEOPLE INVENTING THEIR BACKGROUNDS FROM THEIR RESUME FROM TOP TO BOTTOM OR SEE PEOPLE LYING ABOUT CONNECTIONS TO THE HOLOCAUST.

THAT IS AN EXTREMELY RARE THING, AND I THINK PEOPLE ARE, DESPITE THEIR CYNICISM, ABLE TO DISTINGUISH BETWEEN GEORGE SANTOS AND THE GENERAL DISDAIN THEY HAVE FOR POLITICIANS AND THE TRUTH.

IT DOESN'T HELP IN TERMS OF TRUSTING INSTITUTIONS AT ALL.

I ALSO THINK IT'S JUST REALLY IMPORTANT TO CALL OUT THAT I DON'T -- WHEN I HEAR KEVIN McCARTHY, HOUSE SPEAKER AND OTHER REPUBLICAN LEADERS TALK ABOUT, WELL, THE VOTERS SPOKE -- THAT IS NOT REALLY WHAT THEY THINK.

EITHER THAT IS SOMETHING CLOSE TO A LIE, IN MY VIEW -- THEY CERTAINLY KNOW THAT THE VOTERS DID NOT KNOW THE FULL STORY ABOUT GEORGE SANTOS.

THEY SEE THE FOOTAGE AND COVERAGE OF THE PEOPLE PROTESTING NOW.

WHAT THEY'RE REALLY SAYING IS, THIS IS A GAME IN WHICH THE MOST IMPORTANT THING IS TO HOLD ON TO OUR MAJORITY.

IT IS VERY SLIM, AND WE ARE NOT CONFIDENT WE'LL WIN IF THERE'S A SPECIAL ELECTION.

AND SO THAT'S EXACTLY PROBABLY WHAT THE DEMOCRAT -- IT'S HARD TO KNOW, OF COURSE, BUT SO MUCH OF THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT IS NOW THIS NUMBERS GAME.

YOU SEE AS GRACE TALKED BEFORE, WE FOCUS ON A HANDFUL OF RACES.

THE ONLY RACES THAT THE POLITICAL ESTABLISHMENT DECIDED WILL ESTABLISH CONTROL OF THE HOUSE OR SENATE.

THOSE ARE THE RACES THE MEDIA INVESTS THEIR TIME BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE THE MONEY TO INVEST IN OTHER RACES.

IN TERMS OF WHETHER THIS WILL BE ANOTHER FLASH IN THE PAN, I DON'T KNOW.

YOU'RE CERTAINLY RIGHT ABOUT THE NEWS CYCLE, BUT PARTICULARLY IF HE STAYS IN CONGRESS AND STAYS AS SORT OF A -- WE CONTINUE TO UNVEIL MORE LIES, AND EVERY TIME HE SPEAKS, THIS IS REVIVED.

I THINK IT MAY WELL BE HE BECOMES A SORT OF EMBLEM OF THE DECLINE OF ALL OF THESE THINGS IN TERMS OF THE VALUE OF TRUTH AND OF FACTS AND OF REPORTING, AND HE MAY, IF HE LASTS UNTIL 2024, I THINK THAT MIGHT HELP KEEP THIS IDEA PRESENT FOR VOTERS' MINDS TO HAVE MORE SCRUTINY, HAVE MORE CYNICISM, HAVE MORE REPORTING ABOUT POLITICS AND POLITICIANS.

>> GRANT, WE HAVE ABOUT A MINUTE AND A HALF LEFT, BUT I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR THOUGHTS ON AT LEAST WHAT YOU HEAR FROM YOUR READERS.

ONE, DO YOU THINK THAT IF A SPECIAL ELECTION IS HELD IN THAT DISTRICT IT WOULD GO TO ANOTHER REPUBLICAN, OR HAS GEORGE SANTOS DAMAGED THE REPUBLICAN BRAND AT LEAST IN THAT DISTRICT?

>> I THINK BOTH OF THOSE THINGS ARE TRUE.

RIGHT NOW PEOPLE ARE REALLY FURIOUS ABOUT GEORGE SANTOS, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S A PRETTY REPUBLICAN DISTRICT.

IT WAS REDRAWN IN JUNE, AND THAT'S PART OF THE STORY OF HOW HE WAS ELECTED.

HE WAS ALREADY A NOMINEE FOR A DIFFERENT DISTRICT, AND THEN THE TOP COURT IN NEW YORK CHANGED THE DISTRICT FROM WHAT WAS A D PLUS 11 TO PROBABLY AN R PLUS 4 OR 5, SO IT WAS A MAJOR CHANGE OUT FROM UNDER HIM.

I ALSO BELIEVE HE WILL BE EXPELLED BECAUSE HE IS SUCH A DISTRACTION FOR THE REPUBLICANS IN CONGRESS NOW.

I WAS TALKING TO A FRESHMAN MEMBER OF CONGRESS, AND HE SAID, EVERY TIME I APPEAR AT SOMETHING, I'M ASKED ABOUT GEORGE SANTOS, AND I DIDN'T COME HERE TO TALK ABOUT GEORGE SANTOS, SO, YOU KNOW, HE'S A ROT, A RUST THAT IS EATING AWAY AT THE REPUTATION OF OTHER VERY GOOD PEOPLE.

AND SO THEY WILL -- I THINK THEY'RE GOING TO EXPEL HIM AS SOON AS THEY HAVE A CLEAR SHOT TO DO SO.

>> AND THE GENERAL BELIEF IS THAT KEVIN McCARTHY AT LEAST MIGHT BE WAITING FOR FORMAL CHARGES OF SOME SORT.

>> THAT'S WHAT HE HAS SAID IS THAT HE'S WAITING FOR CRIMINAL CHARGES TO BE FILED.

BUT, YOU KNOW, WE'LL SEE.

AND I DO THINK THAT WILL COME SOON.

I KNOW PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN SPOKEN TO BY THE FBI ALREADY.

AND THAT'S PARTICULARLY AROUND THE CHARITIES FRAUD ISSUE, FAKE CHARITY AND STOLE THE MONEY.

>> DEFINITELY LOOKING FORWARD TO 2024, WHICH WILL BE HERE SOONER THAN ANY OF US KNOW IT.

BUT LOOKING I'LL BE INTERESTED TO SEE HOW MUCH MORE IN-DEPTH REPORTING WE GET ON SEEMINGLY INNOCUOUS CONGRESSIONAL RACES.

I WANT TO THANK MY ROUND TABLE OF JOURNALISTS FOR JOINING ME.

GRANT LALLY, THE FIRST OUTLET TO REPORT ON THE MULTIPLE FALSEHOODS OF NOW CONGRESSMAN GEORGE SANTOS, GRACE ASHFORD, WHO BROKE THE STORY NATIONALLY, AND OF COURSE JODI ROD ROD, THE EDITOR-IN-CHIEF OF THE FORWARD, WHICH INVESTIGATED HIS LIES ABOUT HAVING JEWISH HERITAGE.

THANK YOU FOR YOUR WORK, AND OF COURSE GOING FORWARD WE'LL BE WATCHING HOW THIS STORY DEVELOPS.

>> THANKS, JENNA.

>> THANK YOU.

>> SUCH A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

THANK YOU ALL.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG,