>>> TONIGHT, BRIDGING THE DIVIDE BETWEEN THE POLICE AND THE PUBLIC.

HOW A FORMER TOP COP WORKS TO WIN BACK NEW YORK'S TRUST.

AND HONORING BROOKLYN'S ROLE IN THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I'M JACK FORD.

YOU MAY NOT REALIZE IT, BUT THERE ARE APPROXIMATELY 19,000 CIVILIAN EMPLOYEES OF THE NEW YORK POLICE DEPARTMENT WHO ASSIST THE SOME 36,000 OFFICERS THAT YOU SEE ON THE STREETS EVERY DAY.

THESE PEOPLE HANDLE EVERYTHING FROM PROVIDING TECHNOLOGICAL SUPPORT TO GIVING LEGAL COUNSEL TO BEING THE PUBLIC RELATIONS ARM FOR THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

OVER THE PAST FEW YEARS, THE PANDEMIC, THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS, AND THE RECENT SPIKE IN CRIME HAVE ALL COME TOGETHER TO CREATE PARTICULAR CHALLENGES FOR THE NYPD, BOTH FROM A POLICING PERSPECTIVE AND FROM A PUBLIC RELATIONS PERSPECTIVE.

MAKING THE NYPD COMMUNICATIONS AND PUBLIC RELATIONS MORE IMPORTANT THAN EVER.

JOINING US NOW TO DISCUSS HOW HE HELPED THE NYPD DEAL WITH THE CHALLENGES OF THE PAST TWO YEARS FROM A GHUN CASE COMMUNICATIONS PERSPECTIVE IS A HIGHLY ACCOMPLISHED JOURNALIST, RICHARD ESPOSITO.

WELCOME, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, JACK, IT'S A PLEASURE TO BE HERE.

>> I WANT TO GET TO ALL OF THOSE ISSUES THAT I LISTED HERE, AND THE ISSUES THAT YOU WRESTLED WITH IN YOUR POSITION.

BUT I'M CURIOUS, AND I THINK OUR VIEWERS WILL BE ALSO.

AS I MENTIONED, YOU HAD A HIGHLY ACCOMPLISHED CAREER AS A JOURNALIST.

EMMY AWARDS, ANY NUMBER OF AWARDS.

AND RECOGNIZED FOR YOUR INTEGRITY AS A JOURNALIST.

SO, MY QUESTION IS, WHAT THEN PROMPTED YOU TO WALK AWAY FROM THAT AND TO STEP INTO THIS POSITION, A DEAFIFFICULT POSITI WITH THE NYPD?

>> WELL, A DIFFICULT POSITION IS PART OF THE REASON.

I LIKE A CHALLENGE.

GOVERNMENT SERVICE IS ANOTHER PART OF THE REASON.

I REALLY FELT IT WAS SOMETHING THAT I HAD NEVER DONE AND I REALLY WANTED TO DO.

I HAD BEEN COVERING LAW ENFORCEMENT, CRIMINAL JUSTICE, HOMELAND SECURITY, AND A BIT OF NATIONAL, FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS, SO, I'VE SEEN IT FROM THE OUTSIDE AND I REALLY WANTED TO SEE IT FROM THE INSIDE AND SEE JUST HOW ONE OF THE BIGGEST AGENCIES OF ITS KIND WORKED AND HOW THE PEOPLE INSIDE IT WORKED.

SO, IT WAS A REAL FASCINATION OF MINE AND I'M NOT THE FIRST ACCOMPLISHED JOURNALIST TO TAKE THIS POSITION, GOING ALL THE WAY BACK TO ROBERT DALEY, WHO I THINK HAS WRITTEN 26 BOOKS, STARTING WITH BOOKS ABOUT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, GOING THROUGH FORMULA 1 RACING.

JOHN MILLER, WHO, AS YOU KNOW, WORKED AT NBC, ABC -- >> JOHN WAS A COLLEAGUE OF MINE, AS A MATTER OF FACT, WE WORKED TOGETHER FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS.

>> YEAH, AND HE AND I, WE HAVE PARALLEL TRACKS.

WE MET WHEN WE WERE IN OUR 20s AND WE WERE BOTH COVERING CRIME IN NEW YORK AND WE'VE BEEN FRIENDS EVER SINCE, SO, THERE'S A LONG AND SORT OF STORIED HISTORY OF JOURNALISTS TAKING THIS POSITION FOR TWO YEARS OR FOUR YEARS AND THEN GOING BACK TO JOURNALISM OR, IN MY CASE, I'M GOING INTO CONSULTING FOR COMPANIES THAT ARE IN THE NATIONAL SECURITY, HOMELAND SECURITY, CRIMINAL JUSTICE SPACE.

>> LET ME FOCUS A LITTLE BIT ON SOME OF THOSE ISSUED THAT I MENTIONED, BECAUSE CLEARLY, THAT'S WHAT YOU WERE FOCUSED ON, SIGNIFICANTLY, FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> I WAS.

>> LET'S START WITH THE PANDEMIC.

IT'S NOTHING THAT WE HAD EVER SEEN BEFORE IN YOUR LIFETIMES, AND CLEARLY, THE POLICE WERE THRUST INTO THE MIDDLE OF THIS IN SO MANY DIFFERENT FASHIONS HERE.

HOW DO YOU THINK GENERALLY SPEAKING THE NYPD DID IN TERMS OF THEIR RESPONSE TO THE PANDEMIC?

>> WELL, THAT'S A REALLY GOOD QUESTION AND ONE THAT IS IMPORTANT TO LOOK AT IN THE WHOLE.

IN THE WHOLE, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT HAD OVER A MILLION CONTACTS WITH THE PUBLIC, AND I'M QUITE PROUD THAT THAT THE NUMBER OF ARRESTS AND SUMMONS WAS AROUND 500, SO ON THE WHOLE, A VERY GOOD JOB.

IN THE CASE OF A FEW INSTANCES, A VERY BAD JOB.

WE -- ONE COP RESIGNED OVER HIS TACTICS, A COUPLE OF OTHER COPS PUSHED PEOPLE WHO REFUSED TO PUT A MASK ON, AND OUR OFFICERS AND CIVILIANS JUST LIKE THE LARGER PUBLIC IN THE COUNTRY AND IN THE CITY, SOME OF THEM CHOSE NOT TO WEAR MASKS, SOME OF THEM CHOSE NOT TO BE VACCINATED, SO, WE HAD PUBLIC CHALLENGES AND INTERNAL CHALLENGES AND ON THE WHOLE, A GOOD JOB ON THE WHOLE.

>> WHEN YOU, AS THE PERSON WHO WAS IN THE POSITION OF ESSENTIALLY EXPLAINING AND TALKING ABOUT ALL OF THESE ISSUES, RESPONDING TO CRITICISMS HERE, LET'S FOCUS ON WHAT YOU MENTIONED.

INSTANCES THAT WE'LL REMEMBER, WHERE POLICE OFFICERS WERE SHOWN CLEARLY JUST IGNORING THE NOTION OF THE MASK MANDATE.

AND YOU HAD A LOT OF FOLKS OUT THERE SAYING, WELL, WHAT KIND OF HYPOCRISY DOES THAT SUGGEST?

THEY'RE NOT FOLLOWING THE LAW.

FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, HOW DID YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> I RESPONDED IN A COUPLE OF WAYS.

POLICE OFFICIALS FEEL WE HAVE A HIGHER RESPONSIBILITY TO THE PUBLIC THAN PERHAPS PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT IN LAW ENFORCEMENT, SO, WE FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT WE WANTED EVERYONE TO BE VACCINATED, WE WANTED EVERYONE TO WEAR A MASK IN PUBLIC OR IN OUR OWN BUILDINGS.

REMEMBER, UNLIKE MANY PEOPLE, POLICE OFFICERS HAD TO GO TO WORK EVERY DAY.

THERE WAS NO QUARANTINING AT HOME.

IF YOU WERE WORKING -- YOU WEREN'T WORKING REMOTELY, YOU WERE WORKING OUT ON THE STREETS, IN THE PRECINCTS, IN THE SPECIAL UNITS.

SO, WHILE WE HOLD OURSELVES TO A HIGH STANDARD, IT'S UNAVOIDABLE THAT SOME PEOPLE, WHETHER FOR RELIGIOUS OR OTHER ACCOMMODATIONS, DON'T WANT TO WEAR MASKS OR DON'T WANT TO GET VACCINATED, BUT WE PUT A LOT OF PRESSURE ON PEOPLE TO GET VACCINATED AND TO GET MASKS, BECAUSE WE FELT VERY STRONGLY THAT -- WE HAD AN OBLIGATION TO OURSELVES, TO OUR FAMILIES AND TO THE PUBLIC.

>> WHAT ARE THE OTHER SIGNIFICANT PERIODS OF TIME THAT CREATED SIGNIFICANT CHALLENGES HERE, WITH REGARD TO THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS AND OTHER PROTESTS SURROUNDING THAT.

IN TERMS OF, AGAIN, ESSENTIALLY REPRESENTING THE POLICE, TALKING ABOUT POLICE ACTIONS HERE, AND I SHOULD MENTION THIS, I'VE SAID T THIS BEFORE, I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED AND I'VE HEARD OTHER PEOPLE WHO SHARED THE SAME EXPERIENCES, SAY THE VAST MAJORITY OF LAW ENFORCEMENT PEOPLE ARE GOOD, HONEST, AND DECENT FOLKS.

THE PROBLEM IS WITH THOSE WHO AREN'T AND EVERY PROFESSION HAS THOSE WHO AREN'T, ALL OF THAT.

AND ALL OF THAT CERTAINLY IS WHAT CAME TO THE SURFACE WITH WE GU REGARDS TO THE BLACK LIVES MATTER PROTESTS.

SO, LOOKING AT THE NYPD, HOW DO YOU THINK THE NYPD RESPONDED, WHAT WERE THE -- MAYBE A BETTER QUESTION IS, WHAT WERE THE REAL CHALLENGES FOR THE NYPD AND CERTAINLY FOR YOU ABOUT THOSE RESPONSES?

>> SO, THERE DEFINITELY WAS A COMMUNICATIONS CHALLENGE.

BUT LET'S LOOK AT THE OVERALL CHALLENGE.

YOU ALREADY TOUCHED ON COVID.

WELL, BY MAY 28th, WHEN THE PROTESTS REALLY BEGAN IN EARNEST IN NEW YORK CITY, AND IMPORTANT PROTESTS, THE COVID EPIDEMIC WAS NOWHERE NEAR ABATING.

SO YOU ALREADY HAD A LARGE NUMBER OF COPS HOME, OUT SICK.

WE HAD A HIGH SICK RATE FOR THE FIRST YEAR OF COVID.

THEN THE PROTESTS COME AND JUST LIKE COVID, NEVER BEFORE SEEN EVENT.

WE HAD HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE ON THE STREET IN NEW YORK AND THAT REQUIRED US TO DEPLOY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF OFFICERS EVERY DAY.

THE COMMUNICATIONS CHALLENGE WAS ONE, AND MOST IMPORTANT, LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT WE SUPPORTED THE RIGHT TO PROTEST.

LETTING PEOPLE KNOW THAT FREE SPEECH WAS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT TO THE NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

ALWAYS HAS BEEN OR AT LEAST, IN MY LIFETIME, WHICH GOES BACK TO THE VIETNAM WAR ERA, AND WE DID ON THE KWHOEL WHOLE A GOOD JOB.

WE MANAGED TO ALLOW MOST OF THE PEACEFUL PROTESTERS, MOST OF THE TIME, TO PROTEST.

AND THESE WERE UNUSUAL KINDS OF PROTESTS, COMPARED TO PAST PROTESTS.

THESE WERE ESSENTIALLY A MOVEMENT WITHOUT A LEADER.

SO THERE WASN'T THAT INTERACTION WITH A PERSON REPRESENTING ALL THE PROTESTERS THAT OFTEN IS CHARACTERIZED, HOW LAW ENFORCEMENT INTERACTS WITH A GROUP.

BUT WHAT THERE WAS WAS AN UNPRECEDENTED CHALLENGE.

PEOPLE SAID WE WERE UNPREPARED.

THAT'S TRUE, WE WERE.

WE TEND TO TRY TO BE PREPARED FOR EVERYTHING.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE FILES ON HOW TO RESPOND TO A TERRORIST THREAT, HOW TO MANAGE A HOSTAGE INCIDENT, BUT WE NEVER HAD A PROTEST LIKE THIS.

SO, THERE WAS PART OF A LEARNING CURVE THAT, WHILE WORKING, QUICKLY TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, WHAT ARE THE PROPER TACTICS, WHAT KIND OF DISTANCE , ARE WE TOO AGGRESSIVE?

AND YOU'VE SEEN THE NARRATIVE OF THE CRITICISM.

WE HAD MORE CRITICS AND OVERSIGHT THAN AN AGENCY MIGHT REALLY WANT TO HAVE.

AND THERE WERE SIGNIFICANT, SMALL INTENSES OF OUR OFFICERS OVERREACTING.

ONE OF THEM WAS PUSHED INTO RETIREMENT BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG, ANOTHER ONE WAS PUSHED OUT BECAUSE HE WAS WRONG.

SOMETIMES TWITTER FEEDS OVEREMPHASIZE THE INSTANCES WHERE LAW ENFORCEMENT IS IN THE WRONG OR APPEARS TO BE IN THE WRONG AND SOMETIMES THAT INITIAL VIDEO ISN'T QUITE ACCURATE.

BUT AS YOU KNOW, AS A LAWYER, WE CAN'T JUST JUMP INTO THE FRAY, WE'VE GOT TO ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE VIDEO, WE'VE GOT TO ACTUALLY -- AND THAT CAN TAKE A DAY.

WE TRY TO GO AS FAST AS WE CAN.

ONE INSTANCE WAS A VIDEO SHOWS AN OFFICER PULLING HIS GUN AND THE VIDEO INITIALLY LOOKED LIKE THIS OFFICER WAS PULLING HIS GUN AND POINTING IT AT PROTESTERS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE WHOLE VIDEO, YOU DISCOVERED THAT SOMEONE HAD HIT AN OFFICER BEHIND HIM ON THE HEAD WITH A FIRE EXTINGUISHER OR A BRICK AND HE WAS THERE TRYING TO PROTECT THAT FALLEN PERSON.

THAT TOOK DAYS TO COME OUT.

SO, THAT'S PARTAL OF THE COM COMMUNICATIONS CHALLENGE, CONVEYING WHAT REALLY HAPPENED.

ANOTHER PART WAS CONVEYING THAT THESE WERE IN THE MINORITY, THESE INSTANCES OF OVERAGGRESSIVE POLICING.

THE OTHER THING WAS THE CITIZEN JOURNALIST POLICING.

MANY PEOPLE FEEL THEY ARE JOURNALISTS.

THEY HAVE NO CREDIT ENTIALS, THEY'RE NOT PART OF A NEWS ORGANIZATION.

THE WORLD HAS CHANGED.

WE WERE ADJUSTING ON THE FLY TO THAT NEW REALITY, TOO.

HOW DO WE MAKE SURE PEOPLE GET ACCESS?

AND MAKE SURE THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE NOT ARRESTING SOMEONE WHO IS ACTI ING AS A JOURNALIST WHO DOESN'T LISTEN TO US AND STEPS INTO THE STREET, FOR EXAMPLE?

SO, A GOOD DEAL OF CHALLENGE.

>> YEAH.

LAST QUESTION FOR YOU.

WE COULD TALK FOR A LONG TIME, BUT UNFORTUNATELY, WE HAVE CERTAIN TIME CONSTRAINTS, YOU UNDERSTAND THIS AS A JOURNALIST HERE.

WE HAVE A MINUTE, AND IT'S A HARD QUESTION, BUT I'M GOING TO ASK IT ANYWAY.

WE MENTIONED THE RISE IN CRIME RECENTLY.

REAL QUICKLY, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S HAPPENING?

>> FROM MY -- >> ESPECIALLY SUBWAYS, WE SEE THAT HAPPENING.

WHY DO YOU THINK THAT'S HAPPENING?

>> SO -- OKAY, IF I WERE A SOCIOLOGIST, I COULD GIVE YOU ONE SET OF REASONS.

I WAS WORKING AS A JOURNALIST AND THEN AS A POLICE OFFICIAL AND THERE ARE ANOTHER SET OF REASONS.

ALL OF THESE THINGS PROBABLY WHOLISTICALLY WEIGH INTO IT, BUT THE REALITY IS, FOR TWO YEARS, WE'VE SEEN AN INCREASE IN CRIME NATIONALLY AND IN NEW YORK, SIGNIFICANTLY.

THIS PAST JANUARY WAS UP ABOUT 40% OVER THE YEAR BEFORE.

OVERALL CRIME.

OF SHOOTINGS UP PHENOMENALLY.

THE STORY OF THE SHOOTINGS IS A GOOD STORY, BECAUSE WHAT YOU FIND IS 46% OF THOSE ARE GANG SHOOTINGS.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

>> SO, THE PUBLIC PROBLEM ON THAT CASE IS FEAR.

>> RIGHT.

>> THESE FOLKS ARE SHOOTING AT EACH OTHER.

>> YEAH, THERE ARE SO MANY.

AND RICH, APOLOGIZE.

WE'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION SOMETIME SOON.

AGAIN, OUR THANKS TO RICHARD ESPOSITO, THE FORMER COMMISSIONER FOR COMMUNICATIONS FOR THE NYPD.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING AGAIN SOON.

YOU TAKE CARE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, JACK.

IT'S REALLY A PLEASURE.

>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I'M JACK FORD.

AFTER DECADES OF LOCAL ACTIVISM, THE NEW YORK CITY LAND PRESERVATION COMMISSION HAS VOTED TO DESIGNATE A SMALL BRICK BUILDING IN BROOKLYN AS A HISTORIC LANDMARK.

MID 19th CENTURY, 227 DUTHFIELD STREET WAS OWNED BY HARRIET AND THOMAS TRUESDALE.

THERE'S REASON TO BELIEVE, ACCORDING TO THE ADVOCATES, THAT THEIR HOME MAY WELL HAVE SERVED AS A TEMPORARY STOP FOR THOSE ESCAPING SLAVERY.

THOUGH THE CITY CONAMEDAL PORTION OF THE STREET ABOLIABOLITION IST PLACE, THEY HAVE RESISTED LANDMARK STATUS FOR THE BUILDING UNTIL NOW.

JOINING ME NOW TO TALK ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS LOCATION AND THE SIGNIFICANT OF ITS LANDMARK DESIGNATION IS HISTORIAN MICHAEL HENRY ADAMS.

MICHAEL, WELCOME TO YOU.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> OH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

GREAT FUN TO TALK WITH YOU THIS AFTERNOON.

>> WELL, I'M DELIGHTED TO CHAT WITH YOU.

LET'S START WITH THIS NOTION OF A DESIGNATION, LANDMARK STATUS.

JUST WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, NEW YORK CITY HAS THE BEST PRESERVATION LAW IN THE NATION AND ONE OF THE OLDEST.

IT MEANS THAT WOULD THERE BEING PROOF BY THE OWNER THAT THEY WILL EXPERIENCE SOME HARDSHIP IF THEY MADE CHANGES OR ALTERATIONS OR DEMOLITION OF A BUILDING, THAT THEY CANNOT DEMOLISH IT OR CHANGE IT WITHOUT GETTING THE APPROVAL OF THE CITY GOVERNMENT.

AND SO, THAT JUST GOES SUCH A LONG WAY TOWARD HELPING US TO PRESERVE BUILDINGS THAT EXEMPLIFY OUR GREAT HISTORY IN THE CITY.

>> AND WHAT DOES THE PROCESS INVOLVE?

HOW DOES IT COME TO BE THAT A LOCATION SUCH AS THIS IS ABLE TO ACHIEVE THAT DESIGNATION?

>> WELL, ORDINARILY, IT'S PEOPLE IN A GIVEN NEIGHBORHOOD WHO FEEL THAT THERE'S SOMETHING SIGNIFICANT OR HISTORICAL OR OR AESTHETIC IMPORTANCE IN THEIR COMMUNITY SHOULD BE PROTECTED AND THEY PETITION THE LANDMARK PRESERVATION COMMISSION, THEY ASK FOR A REQUEST FOR EVALUATION AND OFTENTIMES THEY GET A FORM LETTER BACK THAT EITHER SAYS THANK YOU FOR YOUR INTEREST IN THE WORK OF THE LANDMARKS COMMISSION.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU KNOW, THE LPC IS THE SMALLEST AGENCY IN THE CITY WITH THE SMALLEST BUDGET AND THE COMMISSIONERS DON'T RECEIVE ANY PAY, THEY'RE VOLUNTEERS, UNLIKE THE MEMBERS OF THE PLANNING COMMISSION, AND SO THAT REALLY PRESCRIBES WHICH PEOPLE CAN ACTUALLY AFFORD TO VOLUNTEER TO BE ON THE COMMISSION, SO IT'S NOT AS OPEN A PROCESS AS ONE WOULD LIKE TO HOPE.

AND IT WOULD BE GREAT IF AS IN SOME OTHER JURISDICTIONS, IF CITY COUNCIL MEMBERS COULD NOMINATE BUILDINGS TO BE ON THE LAND LANDMARKS COMMISSION.

BUT THERE'S A PROCESS, A HEARING IS HELD AFTER THE BEING HAS BEEN CALENDARED.

AFTER THAT HEARING, USUALLY THE HEARING IS FAIRLY PROFORMA, THE BUILDING BECOMES DESIGNATED, AND THEN IT BECOMES AN OFFICIAL NEW YORK CITY LANDMARK.

>> TELL US ABOUT THE HISTORY OF THIS BUILDING THAT LED TO ITS DESIGNATION.

>> WELL, THIS BUILDING IS VERY SPECIAL AND IT FACED TREMENDOUS PROBLEMS, IN PART BECAUSE THIS BUILDING WAS OWNED BY THE TRUESDALE FAMILY AND MR. AND MRS. TRUESDALE WERE PROMINENT ACTIVISTS IN THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD, BUT THEN IT'S BELIEVED THAT THEIR NEIGHBORS IN A ROW THAT EXISTED TO THE WEST OF THEIR HOUSE, AND HOUSES THAT VERY MUCH LIKE THIS HOUSE, A GROUP OF ROW HOUSES, AND WHEN PEOPLE FIRST PETITIONED THE CITY TO GET THE TRUESDALE HOUSE DESIGNATED AS A LANDMARK, THEY ALSO ASKED THAT THE OTHER HOUSES BE PROTECT AND THE CITY HAD A PLAN TO TAKE THEM ALL BY IMMINENT DOMAIN AND DEMOLISH THEM TO CREATE A PARK AND PERSISTING TO TRY TO AT LEAST SAVE THIS ONE HOUSE, WE FINALLY HAVE GOT THAT.

THIS ONE PARTICULAR HOUSE THAT'S BEEN PROTECTED, BUT THE OTHER HOUSES HAVE ALL BEEN DEMOLISHED IN THAT TIME PERIOD.

THE COMMISSION INITIALLY SAID THAT, A, AS YOU SUGGESTED, THAT A, IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO PROVE THAT THIS HOUSE HAD BEEN ASSOCIATED WITH THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

WELL, THAT'S NOT ANYTHING STRANGE, GIVEN THAT THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD WAS A HIGHLY SECRETIVE OPERATION.

MUCH LIKE, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE WHO RISKED THEIR LIVES TO HIDE JEWS DURING THE HOLE LOOCAUST.

THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS IN FINES COULD BE ISSUED TO YOU FOR HIDING FUGITIVE SLAVES, AND, YOU KNOW -- >> AT A TIME, BY THE WAY, WHEN THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WERE SIGNIFICANT NUMBERS.

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT -- >> YEAH, A CITY COMMISSIONER MIGHT MAKE $3,000 A YEAR.

A BANKER MIGHT MAKE $5,000 A YEAR.

SO, THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS WAS A LOT OF MONEY.

AND SO, PEOPLE WERE TAKING A TREMENDOUS RISK AND THIS HO HOUSE -- THERE WERE NO FIRM DIARY EBB TRIES OR LETTERS THAT SAID SOME SPECIFIC ACTIVITY OCCURRED HERE.

AND, OF COURSE, IN THE TIME, PEOPLE DIDN'T HAVE SIGNS THAT SAID, THIS IS, 227 DUFFFIELD STREET THIS IS THE BROOKLYN STOCK ON THE UNDERGROUND RAILROAD.

BROOKLYN WAS THIS MASSIVE -- WE FORGET IT WAS ONE OF THE LARGEST CITIES IN THE COUNTRY, AND ITS PORT WAS HEAVILY INVOLVED WITH ACTIVITY DIRECTLY CONNECTED TO SLAVERY.

AND EXPORTING AND IMPORTING GOODS OF THE SOUTH AND BRINGING COTTON TO THE THE NORTH TO BE SPUN AND TO FABRIC IN NORTHERN MILLS.

AND THIS ACTIVITY WAS SO PROMINENT IN THE NEW YORK AREA THAT AT THE BEGINNING OF THE CIVIL WAR, OR EVEN BEFORE THE WAR, IN 1860, MAYOR FERNANDO WOOD OF THE NEW YORK SUGGESTED THAT NEW YORK SEE CEDE CECED FR UNION AND NOT CURTAIL A BIG PART OF ITS BUSINESS.

>> I WAS SURPRISED -- I WAS SURPRISED TO LEARN, AT ONE POINT, THAT ALBANY WAS ONE OF THE MAJOR SLAVE TRADING CENTERS IN THE COLONIES AND, INDEED, IN THE STATES, UNTIL IT WAS BANNED.

AGAIN, SORT OF UNDERSCORING YOUR POINT HERE.

LET ME JUMP IN FOR ONE SECOND.

ONCE AGAIN, I'M TALKING WITH MICHAEL HENRY ADAMS, PRESERVATIONIST AND HISTORIAN.

AS YOU MENTIONED, BACK IN -- AS RECENTLY AS 2007, THE COMMISSION SAID NO TO PROVIDING THIS HISTORIC DESIGNATION FOR THIS PROPERTY.

WHAT CHANGED BETWEEN THEN AND NOW, DO YOU THINK?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THEY SAY THAT ALL POLITICS IS LOCAL AND WHAT IS CONVERSELY TRUE IS THAT EVERYTHING IS POLITICAL.

AND SO BY HAVING A NEW ADMINISTRATION FROM THE BLOOMBERG ADMINISTRATION, BY HAVING THE FIRST LADY OF NEW YORK, AND ALSO BY HAVING AS OUR PUBLIC ADVOCATE AND NOW OUR WONDERFUL SECRETARY OF STATE, LETITIA JAMES, I'M SORRY, ATTORNEY GENERAL, NOT SECOND STA SECRETARY OF STATE, LETITIA JAMES AND MRS. McCRAY WERE INSTRUMENTAL IN CHANGING WHAT HAPPENED AT THIS BUILDING.

AND WE'RE SO GRATEFUL, BECAUSE THEY MADE ALL THE DIFFERENCE, I THINK.

>> THE ATTORNEY FOR THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY, THE OWNER OF THE PROPERTY INTENDED TO DEVELOP IT, TEN-STORY APARTMENT BUILDING, SAID WE'RE GOING TO INCLUDE A MUSEUM FOR BLACK HISTORY IN THAT DEVELOPMENT AND THE ATTORNEY HAS SAID THAT, ESSENTIALLY, HIS CLIENT IS FINANCIALLY DEVASTATED BY THIS DECISION.

SO, WHAT DO YOU SAY -- OTHER CRITICS HAVE SAID THIS, THAT, YOU KNOW, IT IS FAIR TO LIMIT SOMEBODY'S USE OF THEIR PROPERTY BASED UPON A FINDING THAT IT IS, AT BEST, PROBABLE THAT THIS PROPERTY WAS USED OR MAYBE EVEN JUST POSSIBLE THAT THIS PROPERTY WAS USED.

WHAT IS A SHORT ANSWER TO THAT CRITICISM?

>> WELL, THE SHORT ANSWER IS THAT THERE IS A HARDSHIP PROVISION IN THE NEW YORK STATE LAW AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU ARE A BUSINESS, YOU CAN OPEN YOUR BOOKS AND PROVE THAT, WITHOUT THE DEVELOPMENT THAT YOU INTEND TO DO, THAT YOU CANNOT AFFORD TO SURVIVE.

AND IF YOU CAN DO THAT, YOUR BUILDING CAN BE DELL MDEMOLISHE.

BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT SINCE I'VE LIVED IN NEW YORK, IN 1985, THERE HAVE BEEN FEWER THAN A DOZEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE AVAILED THEMSELF OF THAT HARDSHIP PROVISION.

IT'S JUST NOT A LEGITIMATE THING.

PEOPLE BUY PROPERTIES, OFTENTIMES JUST TO SPECULATE THAT THEY MIGHT BE ABLE TO SOMEHOW MAKE MORE MONEY IN THE FUTURE THAN THEY ARE MAKING NOW AND WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT THE GREAT HISTORY IMBUED IN THIS PLACE, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT A POLICE THAT WAS OWNED AND LIVED IN BY ONE OF THE MOST PROMINENT ABOLITIONISTS OF ITS TIME, YOU DON'T IMAGINE THAT A PERSON LIKE THAT DID AVAIL EVERY RESOURCE AVAILABLE TO HIM IN ORDER TO BE ABLE TO UTILIZE HIS BUSINESS OF -- OF TRANSFERRING SLAVES, FORMER SLAVES, TO FREEDOM.

>> RIGHT.

>> IN CANADA.

SO, IT'S -- IT GOES WITHOUT QUESTION THAT, OF COURSE, SOMETHING THAT WAS UTILIZED TO BE USEFUL TO FREEING PEOPLE OCCURRED IN THIS HOUSE.

>> LITTLE BIT LESS THAN TWO MINUTES LEFT, SO LET ME ASK YOU TWO QUESTIONS.

FIRST, ARE THERE OTHER PARTICULAR SITES THAT YOU FEEL SHOULD BE GRANTED THIS DESIGNATION?

AND IS THE CITY DOING ENOUGH WITH REGARD TO THAT?

>> WELL, TWO THINGS.

THERE'S A HOUSE AT NUMBER 857 RIVERSIDE DRIVE, AND IT IS JUST AS NOTORIOUS OF BEING DESIGNATED AS THIS HOUSE THAT'S BEING A CENTER OF THE ABOLITION MOVEMENT.

IT WAS BUILT BY A LEADING ABOLITIONIST NAMED DENNIS H HARRIS, HE DIDN'T LIVE THERE, HE LIVED NEARBY, ACROSS THE STREET.

HE LOOKED DOWN AT THIS HOUSE, WHICH WAS VACANT FOR TWO YEARS AND HE SOLD IT TO HIS PARTNER, ANOTHER PROMINENT ABOLITIONIST NAMED JUDGE JOHN NEWHOUSE.

AND NEWHOUSE LIVED IN THIS HOUSE FOR THE NEXT 50 YEARS.

AND SO, THERE'S NO WAY, AGAIN, THAT HE DID NOT UTILIZE THIS HOUSE, SOMEHOW, SOME WAY, FOR THIS NOBLE EFFORT HE WAS INVOLVED IN.

AND THE CITY, UNFORTUNATELY, THE MAYOR SAID RECENTLY THAT EVERY AGENCY IN THE CITY, INCLUDING THE POLICE, SUFFERED FROM SYSTEMIC RACISM AND THAT HE WANTED TO OF BOTH IDENTIFY IT AND ROOT IT OUT AND THE WAY THAT MUST BE ROOTED OUT IN TERMS OF LANDMARKING IS FOR COMMUNITIES OF COLOR TO BE GIVEN THE SAME NUMBERS OF LANDMARKS THAT EXIST IN PROSPEROUS WHITE NEIGHBORHOODS, WHICH IS NOT THE CASE NOW.

IN GREENWICH VILLAGE, COMPARED TO OTHER PLACES, THERE'S A HUGE DISCREPANCY.

>> AGAIN, OUR THANKS, MICHAEL HENRY ADAMS, THANK YOU FOR COMING ON AND HELPING US UNDERSTAND THIS PROCESS.

BE WELL.

>> SO GRATEFUL TO YOU.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> TAKE CARE.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --