♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING, WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS," I'M JACK FORD.

PRESIDENTIAL VISITS ARE NOTHING NEW IN A CITY LIKE NEW YORK.

BUT THURSDAY'S MEETING BETWEEN PRESIDENT BIDEN, MAYOR ADAMS, AND GOVERNOR HOCHUL TOOK ON RENEWED IMPORTANCE AMONG THE ONGOING GUN VIOLENCE CRISIS.

NEW YORK HERS SAID A FINAL FAREWELL TO SECOND OFFICER FALLEN IN HARLEM AMBUSH.

THE PRESIDENT RECOGNIZED THEM, SAYING THEY WERE THE WHO AND WHAT LAW ENFORCEMENT OUGHT TO BE.

ALSO PLEDGED THAT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WOULD STEP UP ITS FIGHT AGAINST GUN VIOLENCE BY WORKING MORE CLOSELY WITH POLICE AND COMMUNITIES AND CALLED ON CONGRESS TO TAKE ACTION ON GUN REFORM.

AFTER THE VISIT, WHAT IS NEXT FOR THE TRI-STATE?

FOR A CLOSER LOOK AT CRUCIAL ISSUES.

WELCOME TONIGHT'S EXPERTS.

TWO FAMILIAR FACES ON "METROFOCUS," PROFESSOR BERKHALTER IS DIRECTOR OF THE POLICING PROJECT TO CREATE MEANINGFUL CHANGE BETWEEN POLICE DEPARTMENTS AND COMMUNITIES THEY SERVE, AND BEN MAX, THE MAX BENEFITS PODCAST WHEREVER YOU GET PODCASTS.

GENTLEMEN, WELCOME.

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE.

>> START WITH THE POLITICS, WHERE YOU THINK THEY'RE GOING, FROM A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE, PRESIDENTIAL VISITS ARE NOT UNUSUAL IN BIG CITIES.

WHY DO YOU THINK PRESIDENT BIDEN CHOSE, WITH ALL THE OTHER CITIES HE COULD HAVE GONE TO ALSO EXPERIENCING PROBLEMS WITH GUN VIOLENCE, WHY COME TO NEW YORK CITY?

>> I THINK THERE'S A FEW THINGS AT PLAY.

ONE, OBVIOUSLY THE MARQUEE CITY IN THE COUNTRY, BIGGEST CITY IN THE COUNTRY, A NATURAL PLACE TO COME.

ALSO OBVIOUSLY A VERY REAL KINSHIP BETWEEN MAYOR ADAMS AND PRESIDENT BIDEN.

CUT FROM SIMILAR CLOTH, WON ELECTIONS WITH SIMILAR MESSAGES.

BOTH WHAT LOTS OF PEOPLE LIKE TO CALL MODERATE DEMOCRATS, NOT FOLLOWING THE PROGRESSIVE CROWD TO THE LEFT.

THEY LIKE TO REACH ACROSS THE AISLE, SO FORTH.

ERIC ADAMS AS A FORMER NYPD OFFICER, UP TO CAPTAIN FOR TWO DECADES, IS OBVIOUSLY A GREAT PARTNER FOR HIM TO HAVE IN THIS ISSUE WHERE REENSPUBLICANS ARE LOOKING TO ATTACK DEMOCRATS IN UPCOMING ELECTIONS OVER CRIME AND GUN VIOLENCE, ESPECIALLY IN CITIES.

THIS IS OPPORTUNITY FOR GOOD MESSAGING ON THAT FRONT THAT HE'S TAKING ACTION, HELPING, IN CITIES, ON THE GROUND WORKING WITH PARTNERS TO LOOK GOOD FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED.

>> FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, 20 YEARS ON THE I DON'TJOB AS NYPD OFFICER, SIMILAR TO MAYOR ADAMS HERE, FROM HIS PERSPECTIVE, WHAT WAS THE VALUE TO HAVE THE PRESIDENT HERE?

>> CERTAINLY A LOT OF THAT -- THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

I AGREE WITH EVERYTHING BEN JUST SAID.

FROM MAYOR ADAMS' PERSPECTIVE, THERE'S A LOT OF VALUE HAVING THE PRESIDENT HERE.

ONE, SHOWS HE'S ABLE TO GARNER FEDERAL SUPPORT.

WE'VE HAD SEVERAL EXTREMELY HIGH PROFILE INCIDENTS OF VIOLENCE HERE IN NEW YORK THAT GARNERED NATIONAL ATTENTION.

MOST RECENT THE MURDER OF THE TWO POLICE OFFICERS.

WHICH BY THE WAY, HIT HOME IN PARTICULAR FOR ME.

I WORKED IN THE PRECINCT IN THE '90s AND MY FATHER WORKED IN THAT PRECINCT IN THE '60s.

NOT TO MENTION IT HAPPENED IN HARLEM, HARD PRESSED TO FIND ANYBODY IN THE UNITED STATES THAT DOESN'T KNOW HARLEM AND KNOWS THERE'S A PARTICULAR HISTORY IN NEW YORK.

IT'S IMPORTANT FOR HIM TO HAVE THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES COME AND HAVE THAT PRESS CONFERENCE AND MEETING AT POLICE HEADQUARTERS, SURROUNDED BY POLICE OFFICERS IN THEIR DRESS UNIFORMS.

AND HAVING THE GOVERNOR THERE.

AND TO ADDRESS THE PEOPLE OF NEW YORK AND THE PEOPLE OF THE COUNTRY.

QUITE OFTEN THE MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY HAS BEEN ALLUDED TO IS NOT JUST MAYOR OF NEW YORK CITY, KIND OF THE EXAMPLE OF THE MAYOR -- WHAT A MAYOR IS IN THE UNITED STATES.

IT'S IMPORTANT LEADERSHIP MOMENT FOR ERIC ADAMS AND IT'S NOT LOST ON ME, IT'S IMPORTANT LEADERSHIP MOMENT FOR JOE BIDEN WITH REGARDS TO GETTING HANDLE ON ADDRESSING THE VIOLENCE THAT'S BEEN PERMUTATING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> GOVERNOR HOCHUL, SHE'S NEW TO THE POSITION, NOT THAT MUCH IS KNOWN ABOUT HER POLICIES AT THIS POINT IN TIME.

WHAT IS THE VALUE FOR HER TO BE PARTICIPATING IN THIS?

>> ON THE SHEER POLITICS OF IT, GOVERNOR HOCHUL WAS A LITTLE BIT SIDELINED.

IT WAS THE ERIC ADAMS/JOE BIDEN SHOW AND MADE SENSE.

BUT GOOD FOR HOCHUL TO BE THERE AND INVOLVED.

ALTHOUGH NOT MENTIONED IN SOME REMARKS, A LITTLE BIT ON THE SIDELINES, BUT SHE WAS THERE, A PARTNER ON THAT, AND CUT FROM THE SIMILAR CLOTH AGAIN.

WHAT'S HAPPENING AROUND NEW YORK AND COUNTRY, REPUBLICANS CONTINUE, AS HAS BEEN -- GONE ON FOR DECADES, TRYING TO PAINT DEMOCRATS AS SOFT ON CRIME, NOT SUPPORTIVE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

THAT WAS KEY MESSAGE OF WHAT JOE BIDEN IS DOING, AS PROFESSOR WAS SAYING, COMING TO 1 POLICE PLAZA TO SHOW SUPPORT FOR NYPD AND LAW ENFORCEMENT WRIT LARGE.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL AND MAYOR ADAMS HAVE BEEN DOING, ESPECIALLY AFTER KILLING OF THE TWO OFFICERS WHERE POLITICALLY THERE'S VULNERABILITY THERE.

THEY'RE ALL STRESSING WE'RE NOT FOR DEFUNDING THE POLICE.

THEY THINK IT'S A LIABILITY, THAT PHRASE AND MINDSET.

EVEN IF POLICIES SHIFT RESOURCES OR GO TO COMMUNITY GROUPS, NUMBER OF OTHER THINGS, THEY'RE TRYING TO SEND THE POLITICAL MESSAGE THEY'RE NOT SOFT ON CRIME AND SUPPORTIVE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE SPECIFICS THAT CAME OUT OF THE MEETING.

GET YOUR SENSE HOW REALISTIC THEY HAVE, HOW SOON WE MIGHT EXPECT TO SEE CONSEQUENCES FROM ALL OF THIS.

THERE ARE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT EXACTLY CAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO THAT CAN HELP ON THE STREETS OF HARLEM IMMEDIATELY OR AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.

COME TO YOU FIRST ON THIS.

WE HEARD TALK YESTERDAY ABOUT THIS NOTION OF THE IRON PIPELINE, WHAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT COULD DO TO STEP IN AND HAVE SOME IMPACT ON THAT.

FIRST, GIVE US A QUICK DEFINITION.

WHAT ARE WE TALKING ABOUT WHEN WE SAY THE IRON PIPELINE, AND WHAT COULD THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DO, DO YOU THINK?

>> THE IRON PIPELINE REFERS TO BASICALLY THE SOURCE OF THE GUNS, HOW THEY ARE GETTING TO NEW YORK.

SO GUNS, BROADLY SPEAKING, ARE NOT MANUFACTURED IN NEW YORK CITY, AND MAJORITY OF THE GUNS THAT ARE BEING USED IN THESE CRIMES, IF THEY ARE PURCHASED LEGALLY, THEY'RE PURCHASED LEGALLY OUTSIDE OF NEW YORK STATE AND TRANSPORTED AND SOLD ILLEGALLY WITHIN THE STATE.

SO REFERS TO THE ORIGIN OF THESE WEAPONS, PRIMARILY FROM OUR SOUTHERN STATES, HOW THEY ARRIVE IN NEW YORK.

NOW ALSO ADD IN ON TOP OF THAT, PREVALENCE OF THE GHOST GUNS.

KITS PURCHASED AT GUN SHOWS AND SO FORTH, ONE CAN ASSEMBLE A WEAPON THAT'S NOT TRACEABLE.

THAT'S HUGE AND ALWAYS BEEN A PROBLEM.

DID CASES LIKE THAT WHEN I WAS A POLICE OFFICER.

GUNS WOULD ALWAYS COME FROM OUR SOUTHERN STATES.

WHAT CAN THE FEDERAL DO, HOW CAN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INTEINT INTERCEDE.

IF WE LOOK AT HOW FEDERAL LAW ENFORCEMENT CHANGED APPROACH TO COUNTERTERRORISM AFTER 9/11.

IT'S A MODEL OF WHAT COULD BE DONE HERE.

>> IN WHAT SENSE?

>> IT REQUIRES A COORDINATION BETWEEN FEDERAL, STATE AND LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

WHEN I SAY LOCAL AND STATE AUTHORITIES, NOT JUST NEW YORK CITY AND NEW YORK STATE LOCAL AUTHORITIES BUT BETWEEN NEW YORK STATE AND NEW YORK CITY LOCAL AUTHORITIES AND NEW YORK AND THE AUTHORITIES FROM THE SOUTHERN STATES.

AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS IN GOOD PLACE TO ASSIST WITH THAT COORDINATION AND THE INVESTIGATIONS.

BROADLY SPEAKING, TRACKING THE SOURCE, HOLDING THOSE ACCOUNTABLE IN OTHER STATES.

IF A GUN EMANATES FROM OUTSIDE OUR BORDERS, OUR LOCAL AND STATE AUTHORITIES DON'T HAVE THE JURISDICTION NECESSARILY OR THE BANDWIDTH TO ATTACK THAT.

BUT CERTAINLY THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES, THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT AND FBI AND THOSE LOCAL AUTHORITIES.

AFTER 9/11 WE SAW A VERY HIGH LEVEL OF COORDINATION.

I WAS ASSIGNED TO INTELLIGENCE DIVISION OF THE NEW YORK CITY POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WASN'T A WEEK GONE BY I DIDN'T COORDINATE WITH ANOTHER AGENCY, FEDERAL OR OUTSIDE LOCAL STATE AGENCY.

THAT'S ONE OF THE PRIMARY METHODS OF ATTACKING THE IRON PIPELINE.

>> AGAIN, LOOK AT IT FROM A POLITICAL PERSPECTIVE.

ONE THING FOR THE CHIEF EXECUTIVE, THE PRESIDENT, TO SAY HERE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO.

OTHER THING FOR IT TO HAPPEN.

IS THERE POLITICAL WILL IN WASHINGTON AND CONGRESS, CONGRESS IS SO DESPERATELY FRACTURED BY HYPERPARTISANSHIP.

DO YOU AGAINST THE SENSE YOU COULD GET COALESCING ON THE PART OF CONGRESS TO SAY WE'RE ALL INVESTED IN THIS, NEED TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT.

>> THERE'S A FEW DIFFERENT AVENUES TO ANSWERING THAT QUESTION.

ONE, THERE ARE THINGS THAT THE PRESIDENT -- THERE'S A REASON HE BROUGHT ATTORNEY GENERAL GARLAND WITH HIM, THE DEPARTMENT OF JUSTICE, ATF, THINGS THAT THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH OF THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS DOING, IS GOING TO DO.

BIDEN IS PROMISING MORE, GARLAND IS PROMISING MORE, THEY DON'T NEED TO BRING CONGRESS ALONG ON.

PIECES OF THAT, QUESTION IS HOW WILL THE IMPLEMENTATION GO, COORDINATION, COMMUNICATION, RESOURCES, SO FORTH.

THEN THERE'S QUESTIONS ABOUT CONGRESS, WHETHER THERE ARE WILLING PARTNERS.

VERY WELL MIGHT BE, THERE'S BROAD AGREEMENT THAT HAVING POLICE OFFICERS SHOT AND KILLED IS NOT A GOOD THING, THAT IS SOMETHING MANY OF AFEW THINGS THAT GOES ACROSS THE AISLE.

THERE'S POTENTIALLY ROOM FOR SOME OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT WANTS TO GET THROUGH THE NEXT BUDGET TO COME THROUGH IN TERMS OF RESOURCES FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT.

BIGGEST VOICES AGAINST THAT WILL BE FROM THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT, NOT REPUBLICANS.

SO THERE'S POSSIBILITIES ON THAT.

IN TERMS OF BROADER GUN REGULATIONS YOU BUMP INTO THE QUESTION OF WHETHER ANYTHING WOULD BE PASSED THROUGH CONGRESS AND SEEMS UNLIKELY UNLESS DEMOCRATS ARE WILLING AND ABLE SOMEHOW TO BREAK THE FILIBUSTER, DO THINGS THROUGH BUDGET RECONCILIATION TO MAKE THAT HAPPEN.

BUT I DO THINK THERE'S A SENSE OF URGENCY WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AND OTHER DEMOCRATS TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT ILLEGAL GUNS AND GUN CRIME.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS COMING OUT OF IT WAS A PLEDGE FROM WASHINGTON, THE PRESIDENT, TO GET MORE FUNDS INVOLVED.

FEDERAL FUNDS INVOLVED IN THIS.

AND KIRK, THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DO, YOU'RE FOCUSING ON IN TERMS OF YOUR POLICING PROJECT.

IF THERE WAS MONEY AVAILABLE, WHAT ARE BEST DESTINATIONS FOR THOSE DOLLARS TO GET TO THE STREETS, TALK ABOUT THE STREETS OF HARLEM, SINCE WE MENTIONED THAT, WHAT ARE THE BETTER USES FOR THAT FEDERAL MONEY IF IT COMES AVAILABLE?

>> THAT'S RAY GRET QUESTION.

THIS COUNTRY IS FRAUGHT WITH HISTORY OF THROWING MONEY AT PROBLEM AND ACHIEVING NOTHING.

I WOULD BIFURCATE THAT DISCUSSION INTO TWO CASES, ONE, FUNDING LAW ENFORCEMENT EFFORTS, AND OTHER IS FUNDING COMMUNITY EFFORTS.

START WITH THE LATTER.

COMMUNITY EFFORTS, MINUTE YOU SAY THAT, LOT OF FOLKS FEEL THAT'S SOFT AND VERY TOUCHIE-FEELIE AND WON'T NECESSARILY HAVE AN EFFECT.

AND THERE IS NO ONE SOLUTION, THERE IS NO ONE COMMUNITY EFFORT.

BUT I WOULD POINT TO ARTICLE THAT CAME OUT IN THE "NEW YORK TIMES" TODAY ABOUT A COMMANDING OFFICER IN 61 PRECINCT IN BROOKLYN, I BELIEVE CAPTAIN ST. FORD.

LITERALLY PAYING YOUNGER MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY TO SHOW UP AND ENGAGE IN CONVERSATION RATHER THAN -- THEY'RE LIKE RIVAL FACTIONS -- RATHER THAN ENGAGING WITH EACH OTHER.

FEAR WAS THEY WOULD RETALIATE AGAINST EACH OTHER BASED ON A PRIOR SHOOTING.

THIS IS NOT END ALL/BE ALL.

NOT ONLY WAY TO APPROACH IT.

BUT SHOWS A CERTAIN LEVEL OF CREATIVITY AND CREATIVITY LEVEL THAT REQUIRES FUNDING.

BROADER APPROACH.

WE HAVE COMMUNITY INTERVENERS, THIS IS NOT JUST OPEN UP A NEW REC CENTER AND ALL PROBLEMS WILL BE SOLVED, HOWEVER CREATING ANOTHER PIPELINE FOR MASS INCARCERATION, NOT GOING TO HELP.

WE DID THAT -- >> I WAS GOING TO GET TO THAT.

CONFLICT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST PUBLIC SAFETY FLIGIGHTING CRIMED JUSTICE REFORM.

WE'LL GET TO THAT.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ON THE FIGHTING CRIME SIDE, THAT IS REAL AND NEEDS MONEY.

PEOPLE RECEIVE MONEY AND SAY HIRING MORE POLICE OFFICERS.

PURPOSE OF HIRING THE POLICE OFFICERS IS SO MORE EXPERIENCED POLICE OFFICERS CAN BE MOVED INTO INVESTIGATIVE ROLES, PAY FOR OVERTIME, HANDLE -- COMBAT CRIME AND ALSO TECHNOLOGY, UPGRADE TECHNOLOGY, THOSE TYPES OF RESOURCES, TRAIN SUPERVISORS.

IF THE MONEY IS USED WISELY, THAT'S A HELP.

THAT'S A BIG IF.

>> THIS NOTION SO MANY TIMES IN THE PAST PEOPLE POINTED TO IDEA OF THROW MONEY AT IT.

IF WE DO, THINGS WILL GET BETTER.

WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT THIS SCENARIO HERE, DO YOU SEE, AS SOMEONE WHO HAS CHRONICLED THIS CITY, WHAT IS GOING ON, ALL THE PROBLEMS, DO YOU SEE A MORE REALISTIC APPROACH THAN JUST -- NOT MONEY BUT MUCH MORE HIGHLY TARGETED FUNDING?

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAYOR ADAMS IS SPOT ON ABOUT TALKING ABOUT RUNNING GOVERNMENT WRIT LARGE, INCLUDING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT, IT'S NOT JUST MORE MONEY BUT RUNNING THINGS MORE EFFECTIVELY AND EFFICIENTLY.

THAT SPOKE TO VOTERS A LOT.

IN THE PRIMARY CATHERINE GARCIA WAS ALSO TALKING ABOUT THAT AND WAS SECOND.

PEOPLE WANT TO SEE RESULTS, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT THAT.

MORE RESOURCES CAN HELP GOVERNMENT OFFICIALS, COMMUNITY GROUPS, SO FORTH, DO MORE.

HAS TO BE MONITORED, TARGETS SET, BE HELD ACCOUNTABLE, BUT UNDOUBTEDLY MORE RESOURCES CAN BE HELPFUL.

THEY HAVE TO BE USED WELL.

IN BOTH RUNNING OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AND FUNDING OF COMMUNITY VIOLENCE INTERRUPTERS, SUMMER YOUTH EMPLOYMENT PROGRAMS AND OTHER THINGS IN MAYOR ADAMS' FAIRLY UMBRELLA BLUEPRINT TO END GUN VIOLENCE, IT HAS A LOT OF LAW ENFORCEMENT PIECES AND COMMUNITY, HEALTH CARE, OTHER PIECES, IT HAS TO BE ALL OF THE ABOVE APPROACH.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE HAVEN'T TOUCHED ON YET, IN 2019, LEADING UP TO THE COVID CRISIS, THE NUMBERS IN NEW YORK CITY WERE LOOKING VERY GOOD.

TRENDING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION FOR A NUMBER OF YEARS UNDER MAYORS DINKENS, GIULIANI, ET CETERA.

BUT COVID PUT A LOT OF PEOPLE OUT OF WORK, OUT OF SCHOOL AND HAD NEGATIVE IMPACT ON THE POLICE DEPARTMENT AS WELL.

LOT OF THAT IS OVERLOOKED IN THIS DISCUSSION BUT NOW YOU HAVE TO CORRECT FOR ALL OF THAT.

NOT ONLY TRY TO GET BACK TO WHERE THINGS WERE BUT CONTINUE TO DRIVE DOWN FROM THERE.

>> COME BACK TO SOMETHING YOU BOTH TOUCHED ON, THIS NOTION OF -- WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN THE PAST, A TENSION BETWEEN, SOMETIMES OUTRIGHT CONFLICT BETWEEN THE NOTION OF MAKING THE STREETS SAFE AND IMPORTANCE OF THE PERCEPTION ON THE PART OF THE PUBLIC THAT THE STREETS ARE GETTING SAFER, AND THE IDEA OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

SO KIRK, TO YOU HERE, YOU'RE SOMEONE WHO STUDIES IT, WHO LIVED IT ON THE STREETS.

HOW DO WE MOVE FORWARD ON BOTH -- IS IT POSSIBLE TO MOVE FORWARD ON BOTH OF THOSE?

SCENARIO WE'RE SEEING IN NEW YORK CITY NOW, NEW MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY HAS TAKEN A POSITION OF LIMITING PROSECUTIONS FOR CERTAIN CRIMES AND MAYOR ADAMS DIDN'T COME OUT AND CONDEMN IT BUT SAID SOMETHING CLOSE TO NO, NO, NO, THAT'S NOT THE WAY THE SYSTEM WORKS.

IF THE POLICE DEPARTMENT ARRESTS THESE PEOPLE, YOUR JOB IS PROSECUTE THEM.

HOW DO WE FIGHT THE INCREASE IN CRIME, VIOLENT AND GUN CRIME ESPECIALLY, AND STILL CONTINUE ON A PATH THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TOWARDS, CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM.

>> I -- IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

I'M OF THE FIRM BELIEF THAT IT IS NOT A ZERO-SUM GAME.

THE FOLKS WHO IN THE COMMUNITY, IN OUR COUNTRY, WHO BELIEVE THAT THERE IS THE NEED FOR SOME REFORM, THESE ARE THE SAME FOLKS WHO WANT TO BE TREATED FAIRLY.

WHEN I SAY TREATED FAIRLY, NOT JUST WITH REGARDS TO INTERACTIONS WITH LAW ENFORCEMENT, THEY WANT THEIR COMMUNITIES TO BE TREATED FAIRLY WITH REGARDS TO ENFORCEMENT GENERALLY.

THEY WANT TO WALK HOME FROM THE SUBWAY AFTER DARK AND FEEL SAFE, BE ABLE TO RIDE THE SUBWAY AND FEEL SAFE JUST LIKE EVERYONE ELSE.

HOWEVER THAT SAFETY, THAT'S ALWAYS THE ARGUMENT, DOES NOT NEED TO COME AT THE EXPENSE OF CIVIL RIGHTS OR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS.

CAN THAT BE ACHIEVED?

ABSOLUTELY.

THE POLICE ARE PROFESSIONALS, I'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT, AND THEY CAN ACHIEVE THAT BALANCE.

OF COURSE IT'S LITTLE BIT EASIER SAID THAN DONE, THE PENDULUM TENDS TO SWING ONE DIRECTION OR OTHER.

WHEN WE HAVE HIGH CRIME, KIND OF WILLING TO SURRENDER RIGHTS AND WANT TO SEE POLICE JUMPING OUT OF CARS AND THROWING PEOPLE UP AGAINST THE WALL, PROVIDES SOME COMFORT, HOWEVER WE LIVE WITH THE AFTERMATH OF THAT.

ONCE THE PROBLEM IS SOLVED, RIKERS ISLAND IS OVERCROWDED AND WE HEAR ABOUT ALL THE COMPLAINTS AND WHATNOT.

I THINK AND MAYOR ADAMS HAS SAID A LOT OF WHAT HE WANTS TO RETURN TO, USE OF PLAINCLOTHES UNITS AND SO FORTH, WANTS TO DO IT IN THOUGHTFUL FASHION.

LOT OF FOLKS, PARTICULARLY ON THE LEFT, SAID YOU'RE TURNING THE CLOCK BACK AND HE'S SAID ABSOLUTELY NOT.

THESE TOOLS CAN BE EFFECTIVE WHEN THEY'RE USED PROPERLY.

AND I THINK HE IS STRIVING FOR THAT SWEET SPOT WHERE FOLKS WILL FEEL SAFE BUT THEY'LL BE DONE IN PROPER WAY.

BUT WE HAVE TO BE OVERT ALSO ABOUT REFORM.

CAN'T JUST ASSUME IT WILL HAPPEN IF HEARTS ARE IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

>> BEN, SOMEONE WHO CHRONICLES POLITICS AND PERCEPTIONS BECOME THE REALITIES HERE.

I SUSPECT IF YOU GRABBED 100 PEOPLE ON THE STREETS OF NEW YORK AND ASKED THEM ABOUT THIS QUESTION, GOING TO GET SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF THEM WHOSE PERSPECTIVES IS BAIL REFORM HAS PUT VIOLENT CRIMINALS BACK ON THE STREET WHEN THEY SHOULD BE HELD BEFORE TRIAL STILL.

WE ALL KNOW, FIRST OF ALL THE PURPOSE OF BAIL IS NOT START OF PUNISHMENT BUT TO GUARANTEE SOMEBODY SHOWS UP FOR TRIAL.

WE ALL KNOW APPROACH HAS BEEN NOT TO LET EVERYBODY OUT.

BUT AGAIN, PERCEPTIONS.

AND OTHER PERCEPTION I SUSPECT PEOPLE WILL HAVE IS THAT WHEN THEY HEAR MANHATTAN D.A.

SAYING WE'RE NOT GOING TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE THERE ARE MORE CRIMINALS ON THE STREET RATHER THAN IN JAIL WHERE A LOT OF THESE FOLKS SAY THEY SHOULD BE TO PROTECT THEM ON THE STREET.

WHEN WE PUT THE JUXTA POSPOSITIF WHAT WE HEARD YESTERDAY AND CONCERNS BY CITIZENS HERE, HOW DO WE NOT FIND OURSELVES IN SITUATION PUSHING BACK AGAINST CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IN FAVOR OF -- AT LEAST THE PERCEPTION -- OF PUBLIC SAFETY.

>> IT'S A VERY DELICATE BALANCE.

THIS IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT MAYOR ADAMS HAS PROMISED TO BE ABLE TO PULL OFF.

AS KIRK WAS SAYING, HE'S PROMISING HE'LL BE ABLE TO REINSTATE A VERSION OF AN ANTIGUN/ANTICRIME PLAINCLOTHES UNIT THAT WILL NOT LEAD TO THE TYPES OF HORRIFIC INCIDENTS THAT ARE THE REASON THAT UNIT WAS DISBANDED AND ERIC ADAMS IN NYPD WAS PROTESTING AGAINST THE PRIOR VERSION OR ONE OF THEM OF THAT UNIT.

IT IS HIS BIGGEST PROMISE AS MAYOR AND SOMETHING HE NEEDS TO DELIVER ON, AND IT'S ALSO EXTREMELY COMPLICATED AND TRICKY.

I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY RIGHT THAT PEOPLE, THEY BASE THEIR OPINIONS ON THEIR DAILY LIVES.

THEY FEEL UNSAFE WALKING IN NEIGHBORHOODS, ON THE SUBWAYS, THAT'S WHAT THEY CARE ABOUT.

NOT THE DATA OR THE NUMBERS OR ANY STORIES THAT POLITICIANS ARE TELLING THEM.

THEY WANT TO FEEL SAFE, YOU HAVE TO BATTLE THAT SENSE.

BUT YOU ADD UP LOTS OF PEOPLE'S PERCEPTIONS, THAT'S THE REALITY IN THE CITY, PEOPLE FEELING UNSAFE IN NEIGHBORHOODS OR SUBWAY, THAT ISSUE IS REAL TO THEM AND POLITICIANS AND POLICY MAKERS NEED TO DEAL WITH.

YOU ALSO HAVE TO SEPARATE FACT AND FICTION.

THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT BAIL REFORM HAS THE SOURCE OF THIS VERY, VERY SIGNIFICANT AND TROUBLING INCREASE IN GUN VIOLENCE OVER THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

DATA WE HAVE SO FAR JUST DOES NOT SHOW THAT.

THERE'S LOTS OF OTHER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHAT HAS LED TO THAT, BUT AS OF NOW WE HAVE TO BE ABLE TO SEPARATE THAT.

MAYOR IS TALKING ABOUT SOME CHANGES TO BAIL REFORM.

THERE MIGHT BE MERITS IN THAT DISCUSSION, BUT IT'S NOT BECAUSE THE BAIL REFORMS THAT HAVE HAPPENED HAVE BEEN BECAUSE OF THE SPIKE IN GUN VIOLENCE.

HE'S ALSO TALKED ABOUT SECOND BIG CHANGE HE WANTS TO SEE RELATED TO LANDMARK REFORMS AROUND RAISE THE AGE, HOW YOUTH OFFENDERS ARE TREATED.

THERE'S QUESTIONS AROUND WHAT DATA HE'S BASING THAT ASSERTION ON AS WELL, RELATED TO GUN CHARGES, ESPECIALLY POSSESSION VERSUS PULLING A TRIGGER.

>> THERE'S SO MUCH WE COULD TALK ABOUT, UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE LIMITED BY TIME.

BUT THIS HAS BEEN MARVELOUS CONVERSATION, TWO OF YOUR BROUGHT PERSPECTIVE TO ALL OF THIS.

LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING YOU BOTH BACK ON, CONTINUING THIS CONVERSATION AS WE GET A SENSE WHETHER THINGS ARE INDEED BECOMING EFFECTIVE AND WHETHER WE'RE GETTING THE PROGRESS WE'RE LOOKING FOR.

ALWAYS A PLEASURE HAVING YOU HERE.

LOOK FORWARD TO TALKING TO YOU BOTH AGAIN SOON.

TAKE CARE NOW.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS.

♪ >>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION, AND BY -- ♪