>>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL P. ROMAN, JACK FORD.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO THE "METROFOCUS" FRONT PAGE FORECAST.

I'M RAFAEL PI.

ROMAN.

IN THIS WEEK'S LOOK AHEAD AT THE MAJOR HEADLINES, NEW YORK REPUBLICANS ARE CRYING FOUL OVER THE STATE'S NEW CONGRESSIONAL DISTRICT LINES AND THEY'RE TAKING THEIR CASE TO COURT.

WE'LL DISCUSS.

ON FRIDAY, ALVIN BRAGG, MANHATTAN'S NEW PROGRESSIVE DISTRICT ATTORNEY OFFICIALLY REVERSED A NUMBER OF HIS MOST CONTROVERSIAL EARLY DIRECTIVES AFTER WEEKS OF BLOWBACK FROM ACROSS THE POLITICAL SPECTRUM.

WE'LL EXAMINE THAT AND THE FUTURE OF CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IN THE CITY .

>>> FINALLY, THERE ARE ENCOURAGING SIGNS THE OMICRON VARIANT IS IN RETREAT IN OUR REGION.

DOES THAT MEAN IT'S TIME TO DO AWAY WITH OUR MASK AND VAX MANDATES?

WHAT DOES IT HOLD FOR THE CITY AND THE STATE?

JOINING US NOW FOR FURTHER PERSPECTIVE IS THE PANEL OF TRI-STATE EXPERTS.

SALLY, RUTGERS POLITICAL SCIENCE PROFESSOR AND SCHOLAR AT THE CENTER FOR THE AMERICAN GOVERNOR.

RAFAEL MANUEL, SENIOR FELLOW AND HEAD OF RESEARCH FOR THE POLICING OF PUBLIC SAFETY INITIATIVE AT THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTE, AND CONTRIBUTING EDITOR FOR CITY JOURNAL, THE URBAN POLICY MAGAZINE.

AND GENE LEE EVERLY, THE INVESTIGATIVE NEWS OUTLET, CITY LIMITS.

WELCOME, ALL.

THANK YOU FOR PUTTING UP WITH THAT LONG INTRODUCTION.

SO, WE HAVE A LOT OF QUESTIONS TO GO.

I WANT TO START WITH YOU, JEAN MARIE.

REDISTRICTING HAPPENS IN EVERY STATE EVERY TEN YEARS, HOPEFULLY NOT TOO LONG AFTER THE CENSUS HAS DETERMINED A CHANGE IN THE STATE'S POPULATION SINCE THE PREVIOUS CENSUS.

LAST THURSDAY, GOVERNOR HOCHUL SIGNED INTO LAW THE NEW DISTRICT MAP THAT WAS DRAWN UP BY THE DEMOCRATS AND PASSED ON A PARTY LINE BY THE ALBANY LEGISLATURE ON WEDNESDAY.

WHY ARE DISTRICT LINES IMPORTANT?

WHY DO THEY MATTER?

AND HOW WOULD YOU CHARACTERIZE THE NEW DISTRICT LINES?

>> THIS, AS YOU SAID, IS SOMETHING THAT HAPPENS EVERY TEN YEARS.

THIS FOLLOWS THE CENSUS COUNT THAT HAPPENS AT THE SAME TIME IN EVERY DECADE.

THESE ARE REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE THEY BASICALLY DRAW UP NEW YORK'S LEGISLATIVE DISTRICTS AND CONGRESS ON THE STATE LEVEL AS WELL FOR THE NEXT TEN YEARS.

SO THERE'S A LOT AT STAKE THERE.

THE CONGRESSIONAL MAP, WHICH IS WHAT HAS CAUSED THE KIND OF LATEST CONTROVERSIAL -- THERE IS ALWAYS A CONTROVERSY.

REDISTRICTING HAS SPECIFICALLY DRAWN THE IRE OF AS YOU SAID REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS IN THE STATE.

NEW YORK CAN SHIFT ITS DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATION IN THE HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES THAT CAN OFFSET SOME OF THE LINES BEING DRAWN IN OTHER REPUBLICAN-HEAVY STATES LIKE TEXAS AND PLACES LIKE THAT.

SO THERE IS A LOT, LIKE YOU SAID, AT STAKE HERE.

>> SO WHAT ARE THE CHANGES, IF YOU CAN GIVE US A QUICK OVERVIEW OF WHAT THE MOST SIGNIFICANT CHANGES ARE IN THE NEW LINES, THE ONES THAT THE EXPERTS ARE PREDICTING WILL CAUSE REPUBLICANS ANYWHERE BETWEEN THREE AND FOUR HOUSE SEATS?

>> YEAH, SO, THIS YEAR IS SUPPOSED TO BE DIFFERENT THAN PAST REDISTRICTING PROCESSES BECAUSE, I'M SURE AS YOUR SHOW HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT, THIS PROCESS WAS SUPPOSED TO BE DONE, QUOTE, UNQUOTE, INDEPENDENTLY.

THERE IS AN INDEPENDENT COMMISSION THAT HAD BEEN INSTITUTED AS PART OF A 2014 CHANGE IN STATE LAW, AND BASICALLY THOSE MAPS THAT WERE DRAWN UP BY THAT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WERE STILL -- THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO COME TO ANY TYPE OF CONSENSUS BECAUSE THAT INDEPENDENT COMMISSION WAS STILL COMPLETELY SPLIT DOWN PARTISAN LINES.

WHAT ENDED UP HAPPENING WAS DEMOCRATIC LAWMAKERS WHO HAD CONTROL OVER THE STATE LEGISLATURE AND ALSO OBVIOUSLY HAD THE GOVERNORSHIP THIS TIME AROUND, WROTE -- DREW THEIR OWN MAPS.

AND THE WAY THAT IT'S LOOKING, DEPENDING ON HOW THE ELECTION GOES, IS THEY WOULD BE SHIFTING FROM HAVING 19 HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES, RIGHT NOW WHICH IS WHAT THE DEMOCRATS HAVE, TO EIGHT REPUBLICANS WHEN YOU BREAK IT DOWN IN THE STATE TO DEMOCRATS HAVING 22 AND REPUBLICANS HAVING FOUR.

SO THREE OF THOSE REPUBLICAN SEATS COULD POTENTIALLY LOSE BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT THEY SAY, THE WAY THE MAPS ARE DRAWN WOULD INCLUDE MORE HEAVILY DEMOCRATIC AREAS IN THE REPUBLICAN DISTRICTS.

REPUBLICANS ARE LIKELY TO LOSE A DISTRICT BECAUSE OF THE NEW LAWS CALCULATED IN THE CENSUS.

THAT WOULD BE FOUR LOSSES IF THE ELECTION GOES THAT WAY.

>> RIGHT.

DISTRICT 11, MANHATTAN ISLAND DISTRICT, HAS MOVED TO PARK SLOPE, WHICH IS VERY DEMOCRATIC.

SO THAT'S PROBABLY GOING TO GO A AWAY, THAT'S AN EXAMPLE.

PROFESSOR, NOT JUST REPUBLICANS ARE CRYING FOUL ABOUT THESE LINES.

MANY, IF NOT MOST OF THE STATE'S GOOD GOVERNMENT ORGANIZATIONS SEEM TO BE CRITICIZING THEM AS WELL.

FOR EXAMPLE, MIKE LEE, SENIOR COUNSEL FOR THE DEMOCRACY PROJECT, BRENDAN CENTER FOR JUSTICE, SAID THAT WHILE, QUOTE, SOMETIMES YOU DO NEED FANCY METRICS TO ASCERTAIN IF GERRYMANDERING HAS TAKEN PLACE.

A MAP THAT GIVES DEMOCRATS 85% OF THE SEATS IN A STATE THAT IS NOT 85% DEMOCRAT IS NOT A PARTICULAR HARD CASE.

DO YOU AGREE?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY DEMOCRATS HAVE GERRYMANDERED AS MUCH AS REPUBLICANS HAVE OVER THE YEARS.

THERE'S NO QUESTION THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN A REAL FUNDAMENTAL PROBLEM IN OUR DEMOCRACY.

HAVING SAID THAT, I WILL GO BACK TO THE CENSUS COUNT ITSELF, WHICH REALLY SUFFERED, I THINK, UNDER TRUMP AND HIS ADMINISTRATION.

THERE WAS A REAL EFFORT AFOOT TO CURTAIL THE ACTUAL TIME THAT CENSUS TAKERS HAD TO DO THE FULL COUNT.

SO I THINK WE HAVE TO GO BACK TO HOW THE CENSUS IS ADMINISTERED UNDER VARIOUS ADMINISTRATIONS AS WELL.

AND THERE IS A POLITICIZATION OF THAT.

I THINK I'M FOR, ALL OF US SHOULD BE FOR, I THINK, A NONPARTISAN EFFORT TO CREATE A SPACE FOR EXPERTS TO GET IN AND ADMINISTER THESE KINDS OF, YOU KNOW, STATISTICAL ANALYSES THAT DO THIS AS FAIR AS POSSIBLE RATHER THAN THE POLITICIANS THEMSELVES.

SO, YES, YOU KNOW, WHERE DEMOCRATS RUN AFOUL OF DOING WHAT'S RIGHT IN THE NAME OF THEIR OWN SELF-INTERESTS AND DEMOCRACY HAS TO BE CRITICIZED.

I ALSO WANT TO EMPHASIZE DONALD TRUMP WAS, YOU KNOW, HARDLY SOMEONE, YOU KNOW, RUNNING IT DOWN THE MIDDLE IN TERMS OF FAIRNESS WITH REGARD TO HOW THE CENSUS WAS TO PLAY OUT.

>> RAFAEL, A GROUP OF REPUBLICAN VOTERS HAVE ALREADY SUED THE STATE OVER THE NEW MAP.

WHAT ARE THE CHANCE THAT'S THEY'LL BE SUCCESSFUL IN GETTING THE COURTS TO OVERTURN THE MAPS AND HAVE THE LEGISLATURE DO THEM OVER AGAIN IN A MORE EQUITABLE WAY?

>> MY GUESS IS THE CHANCES ARE VERY LOW.

IT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A LIKELY OUTCOME.

THE SUPREME COURT HAS HAD MULTIPLE OPPORTUNITIES OVER THE COURSE OF THIS COUNTRY'S HISTORY TO STEP IN AND INTERFERE WITH GERRYMANDERED DISTRICT LINE DRAWING.

THEY HAVE REFUSED TO DO SO IN ALL CASES.

USUALLY ON THE GROUNDS THAT THESE ARE POLITICAL QUESTIONS OUTSIDE THE BOUNDS OF WHAT THE FEDERAL COURTS CAN ACTUALLY DECIDE ON.

THERE WERE TWO CASES IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, ONE OUT OF WISCONSIN, ONE OUT OF MARYLAND IN WHICH WE SAW SIMILAR DISTRICTS BEING DRAWN IN A CLEARLY UNFAIR WAY.

THOSE WERE CHALLENGED ON VARIOUS GROUNDS.

THE SUPREME COURT, AGAIN, REFUSED TO STEP IN.

ULTIMATELY IT SEEMS LIKE THIS IS GOING TO BE A POLITICAL PROBLEM THAT REQUIRES A POLITICAL SOLUTION.

AND NONE OF THOSE POLITICAL SOLUTIONS IS FOR THE PEOPLE WHO FEEL LIKE THEIR REPRESENTATION HAS BEEN ZAPPED TO GET UP AND MOVE TO SOMEPLACE WHERE THEIR VOICE IS GOING TO BE HEARD.

I SUSPECT THAT THAT'S NOT GOING TO BE A VERY GOOD THING FOR OUR SOCIETY.

I THINK THAT KIND OF B BALKANIZATION UNDERMINES WHAT OUGHT TO DRIVE OUR POLITICAL PROJECT.

>> RAFAEL, THE ISSUE OF THE COURTS, THE 2014 AMENDMENT TO THE CONSTITUTION JEAN MARIE REFERRED TO EARLIER EXPLICITLY SAYS, QUOTE, THE DISTRICTS SHALL NOT BE DRAWN TO DISCOURAGE COMPETITION OR BOOST ONE PARTY OR INCUMBENT CANDIDATE OVER ANOTHER.

THE VERY THING WHICH SEEMINGLY EVERYBODY AGREES EXCEPT DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATURE IN ALBANY.

ALSO JUST LAST FRIDAY, THE NORTH CAROLINA SUPREME COURT STRUCK DOWN A REDISTRICTING MAP THAT GAVE REPUBLICANS TOO MUCH OF AN EDGE, AND LAST MONTH THE SAME THING HAPPENED IN OHIO, AGAIN, WITH LINES DRAWN BY REPUBLICANS.

AS FAR AS I KNOW, THE CONSTITUTION OF THESE TWO STATES DON'T HAVE SPECIFIC LANGUAGE LIKE THE NEW YORK STATE CONSTITUTION HAS BARRING GERRYMANDERING.

SO WHY IS THIS NOT ACTUALLY A SLAM DUNK FOR REPUBLICANS?

>> THIS IS TRUE.

THE STATE SUPREME COURT -- THE STATE CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT I THINK IS GOING TO HAVE FAR LONGER RANKS THAN A CONSTITUTIONAL ARGUMENT WOULD HAVE IN A CASE LIKE THIS.

THERE REALLY ISN'T A LOT TO GO ON IN THE WAY OF A BODY OF JURISPRUDENCE TO PREDICT THE OUTCOME OF A CASE LIKE THIS.

I'M STILL NOT GOING TO HOLD MY BREATH THAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE A VERY CLEAR RESOLUTION TO THIS, BUT IT IS INTERESTING.

IT IS, I THINK, GOING TO BE INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT FOR THE FUTURE OF NEW YORK TO SEE HOW THIS PARTICULAR PROVISION OF THE STATE CONSTITUTION GETS INTERPRETED.

>> SO, PROFESSOR, YOU KNOW, ACCORDING TO A PIECE IN YESTERDAY'S "THE NEW YORK TIMES," GERRYMANDERING BY BOTH REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, YOU WERE MENTIONING BOTH HAVE BEEN DOING IT, THIS YEAR GERRYMANDERING BY THOSE -- BY BOTH PARTIES SO FAR HAVE LEFT ONLY 40 OUT OF 435 SEATS COMPETITIVE.

LAST TIME TEN YEARS AGO IT WAS 73.

IF THE NEW LINES SURVIVE THE COURTS, WHAT IS THAT GOING TO DO TO NEW YORK STATE AND NEW YORK CITY WHICH ARE ALREADY SUFFERING FROM EXTREMELY LOW VOTER TURNOUT?

>> WELL, I THINK AS RAFAEL SAYS, THIS BALKANIZATION PROCESS WHERE POLITICIANS CHOOSE THEIR VOTERS AND NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND MEANS THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE COMMUNITIES WHERE, YOU KNOW, THERE IS A KIND OF ONE-SIDED DIALOGUE.

IT'S REALLY A MONOLOGUE, AND THERE ISN'T A PUSH, AN EFFORT MADE TO GET, YOU KNOW, UNRESOLVED ISSUES RESOLVED AS POLITICIANS CAN TAKE FOR GRANTED THEIR REELECTION.

YOU MENTIONED INCUMBENCY AND INCUMBENCY IS A POWERFUL PRACTICE, THE MOST POWERFUL WEAPON IN POLITICS TO JUST HAVE THE POSITION ALREADY, AND IT JUST MEANS THAT FRANKLY, YOU KNOW, MORE MONEY IN POLITICS TO INCUMBENTS PREVENTS NEW BREATH DEMOCRATIZATION AND SMALLER KINDS OF ISSUES RELATED TO DEMOCRACY FROM FLOWERING.

SO IT'S A REAL CHALLENGE, AND IT JUST MEANS THAT VOTERS IN NEW YORK ARE ALL THE MORE ESTRANGED FROM THEIR GOVERNMENT AND ESTRANGED FROM HAVING THEIR INTERESTS MET.

>> ALL RIGHT.

LET'S TURN TO THE ISSUE OF CRIME AND DISORDER.

JEAN MARIE, LAST THURSDAY CONGRESSMAN RICHARD TORRES SAID, QUOTE, THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT IS DEAD IN NEW YORK CITY AND GOOD RIDDANCE.

ANY OFFICIAL ADVOCATING FOR THE ABOLITION OR DEFUNDING OF THE POLICE IS OUT OF TOUCH WITH REALITY AND SHOULD NOT BE TAKEN SERIOUSLY.

IS CONGRESSMAN TORRES RIGHT?

AND IF SO, WHAT HAS LED TO THE REVERSAL OF FORTUNE OF THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT WHICH SEEMS TO ME JUST A YEAR AGO WAS STILL GOING STRONG?

>> YEAH, IT'S BEEN A PRETTY REMARKABLE SHIFT IN SORT OF THE PUBLIC DISCOURSE AROUND THIS, I THINK.

AND I THINK THERE'S BEEN A NUMBER OF FACTORS AT PLAY.

WE HAVE A CITY THAT IS COMING OUT OF, A, AND STILL DEALING WITH THE PANDEMIC.

I THINK IN A LOT OF NEIGHBORHOODS THERE IS A SENSE OF JUST NORMAL LIFE NOT OPERATING THE WAY THAT IT USED TO PRIOR TO THE PANDEMIC.

STREETS IN SOME NEIGHBORHOODS IN PARTICULAR BEING A LOT QUIETER AND A LOT LESS PEOPLE PRESENCE THERE AND GIVING PEOPLE A SENSE OF UNEASE.

AND OBVIOUSLY, OF COURSE, THERE HAVE BEEN A NUMBER OF THESE HIGH-PROFILE CRIMES PARTICULARLY IN THE PAST MONTH OR SO WITH THE FATAL KILLING OF TWO POLICE OFFICERS WHO WERE ON DUTY.

SO THERE'S BEEN A LOT, I THINK, THAT HAS SORT OF SHAKEN THAT AND CREATED THIS SENSE OF REAL UNEASE AND UNCERTAINTY AND THAT ALL KIND OF FEEDS INTO THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT HOW MUCH RESOURCES WE SHOULD BE ALLOCATING TOWARDS POLICING.

>> PROFESSOR, DO YOU AGREE A REVERSAL OF FORTUNE OF DEFUND THE POLICE IS REAL?

DO YOU AGREE IT SUGGESTS IT GOES BEYOND THE DEFUNDING MOVEMENT AND INCLUDES A LOSS OF MOMENTUM FOR THE ADVOCACY OF CRIMINAL REFORM AS A WHOLE?

>> I WOULD SAY NO TO THE LATTER AND YES TO THE FORMER.

LOOK, THE DEFUND THE POLICE SLOGAN ITSELF WAS ALWAYS PROBLEMATIC AND, YOU KNOW, REPRIORITIZING MUNICIPAL FUNDS DOESN'T FIT WELL ON A BUMPER STICKER, I GET IT.

BUT REALLY WHAT I THINK ADVOCATES OF DEFUND THE POLICE HAVE BEEN TALKING ABOUT IS CREATING MORE BALANCE IN TERMS OF HOW PUBLIC FUNDS ARE SPENT WITH REGARD TO PUBLIC SAFETY.

EDUCATION AND COMMUNITY CENTERS AND OUTREACH AND A HOST OF OTHER ISSUES, MENTAL HEALTH FACILITIES, ALL NEED BETTER AND MORE FUNDING THAT OTHERWISE WOULD BE GOING TO THE POLICE.

BUT, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, I'VE ALREADY SAID THAT IN 12 SECONDS AND THAT DOESN'T MAKE FOR GOOD TELEVISION.

I'M SORRY TO YOUR VIEWERS, AND IT PROBABLY DOESN'T MAKE FOR GOOD POLITICS.

BUT THE REALITY IS THAT'S WHAT PEOPLE WHO ARE INTERESTED IN DEFUNDING THE POLICE ARE ABOUT.

AND I WILL SAY, WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THERE'S CERTAINLY MORE ATTENTION AND SPOTLIGHT ON CRIMINAL BEHAVIOR BY POLICE OFFICERS, POLICE BRUTALITY AND THE LIKE GIVEN WHAT THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS HAVE WITNESSED, BUT WE DON'T LIVE IN A VALHALLA OF POLICE COMMUNITY RELATIONS.

WE STILL HAVE LOTS OF POLICE BRUTALITY AND MINORITY COMMUNITIES IN PARTICULAR REMAIN VICTIMIZED DISPROPORTIONATELY.

SO WE HAVE TO FIND A BALANCE BETWEEN SAKE, YES, WE'RE GOING TO JET I SUN DEFUND THE POLICE VERSUS WE DON'T NEED POLICE WHATSOEVER.

AND I DON'T THINK EITHER OF THOSE EXTREMES OUGHT TO HOLD THE DAY.

>> SO, RAFAEL, DO YOU THINK THAT THE PUSH BACK IS NOT ONLY FOR THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT, BUT ALSO FOR CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM OR RADICAL CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AS A WHOLE, AND THAT THE MANHATTAN D.A.

'S WALK BACK OF SOME OF HIS MOST RADICAL DIRECTIVES ARE A SIGN OF THAT?

>> I DO.

I THINK SO.

THE QUESTION IS HOW MUCH STAYING POWER DOES THIS NEW HESITANCY HAVE.

THE CRIME PROBLEMS ARE CERTAINLY A DRIVER OF THAT.

AS YOU JUST HEARD, A LOT OF WHAT THE DEFUND THE POLICE MOVEMENT BENEFITED FROM WAS THE SENSE THEY WERE ON THE RIGHT SIDE OF HISTORY, THAT THEY WERE FIGHTING FOR A JUST CAUSE.

AND THERE WAS A LOT OF FOCUS ON DISPROPORTIONALITY IN TERMS OF THE DISTRIBUTION OF COSTS OF POLICING AND CRIMINAL JUSTICE ALONG RACIAL LINES.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'RE SEEING IS IHMCRIME HAS MOVED IN THE WR DIRECTION IN TERMS OF THE COST OF CRIME VICTIMIZATION.

A LOT OF COMMUNITIES THAT HAVE BEEN TAKEN FOR GRANTED AS CENTERS OF SUPPORT FOR A LOT OF THESE REFORM MOVEMENTS ARE STARTING TO HAVE REAL QUESTIONS.

THEY ARE THE ONES BEARING THE BRUNT OF THE RISK ASSOCIATED WITH POLICIES AIMED AT DEE POLICING, AIMED AT LARGE.

WE TALKED ABOUT TRANSFERRING RESOURCES AWAY FROM POLICE TO OTHER SORT OF CRIME FIGHTING MEK MECHANISMS.

IT HAS SEEN HUGE BOOSTS IN RECENT YEARS.

IT IS NOT CLEAR WE SEE THAT TRACK WITH CRIME TRENDS.

IN CHICAGO, FOR EXAMPLE, TAKE 2014, 2016, PER PEOPLE SPENDING WENT FROM 30 TO 50% ABOVE THE NATIONAL AVERAGE.

CRIME MOVED IN THE WRONG DIRECTION DURING THAT TIME PERIOD.

WE SAW UNEMPLOYMENT DECREASE SIGNIFICANTLY DURING THAT SAME TIME FRAME.

AGAIN, CRIME MOVED IN THE WRONG DIRECTION.

I THINK WHAT WE'RE STARTING TO LEARN IS THAT THE SIMPLE STORY THAT'S BEEN TOLD ABOUT SOCIOECONOMIC INDICATORS AND VIOLENCE IS NOT THAT SIMPLE AND PEOPLE ARE STARTING TO HAVE QUESTIONS THAT I THINK POLICY MAKERS DON'T HAVE GOOD ANSWERS FOR, WHICH IS WHY WE SAW SOMEONE LIKE ALVIN BRAGG WHO CAMPAIGNED ON CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM AND BEING A RADICAL REFORMER REVERSED TWO MAJOR POLICIES SO QUICKLY.

>> WHAT ARE THOSE MAJOR POLICIES, QUICKLY?

>> ONE IS ROBBERIES.

NOW EVEN IF YOU HAVE A DANGEROUS INSTRUMENT, EVEN IF THERE IS NOT AN IMMEDIATE PRESENCE OF THE POTENTIAL FOR PHYSICAL HARM, THAT IS NOW GOING TO BE CHARGED AS A FELONY, WHICH IS A MAJOR DEVELOPMENT BECAUSE AS WE SAW, THERE ARE A LOT OF SO-CALLED RETAIL THEFTS THAT CAN VERY EASILY ESCALATE TO ROBBERIES IF THOSE PEOPLE ARE CONFRONTED.

SO IT'S NOT AT ALL CLEAR THERE IS A RADICAL DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THOSE KINDS OF DEFENSES AND OTHERS.

>> JEAN MARIE, ABOUT A WEEK AND A HALF AGO, MAYOR ADAMS CALLED FOR ALBANY TO CALL FOR DANGEROUSNESS WHEN DECIDING TO REMAND THE PERSON INTO CUSTODY OR RELEASE THEM ON THE PROMISE THAT THEY'LL SHOW UP FOR TRIAL, WHICH IS THE STANDARD FOR THE OTHER 49 STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

AND HE ALSO CALLED FOR LOWERING THE AGE TO BE TRIED IN CRIMINAL COURT FOR GUN POSSESSION FROM 18 TO 16.

AND THE WEEK-AND-A-HALF, WHAT HAVE WE HEARD, WHAT HAVE YOU HEARD FROM ALBANY?

IS THE GOVERNOR ON BOARD WITH THIS?

ARE THE DEMOCRATIC LEGISLATORS ON BOARD WITH THIS OR NOT?

>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE SHAPING UP TO BE ONE OF, LIKE YOU SAID, THE CORE KIND OF ARGUMENTS THE LEGISLATURE IS GOING TO HAMMER OUT THIS YEAR WITH THE GOVERNOR'S INPUT.

I HAVEN'T SEEN HER LATEST COMMENTS ON THIS CALLED SPECIFICALLY, SO I HAVE TO DOUBLE-CHECK.

OBVIOUSLY THEY'LL REFORM WHEN IT WAS PASSED WAS, HUGELY CONTENTIOUS, THERE'S BEEN THIS KIND OF CAMPAIGN FROM THE RIGHT TO REVERSE THOSE THINGS.

AND I THINK THAT ERIC ADAMS SPOTLIGHTING MANY OF THESE ISSUES MEANS WE'RE IN FOR ANOTHER LEGISLATIVE YEAR OF REAL DEBATE AROUND THIS AND REAL CONTENTIOUS BACK AND FORTH, A LOT OF MORE LEFT LEANING PROGRESSIVE GROUPS HAVE BEEN KIND OF TRYING TO, TO, YOU KNOW, CENTER THE ISSUE AS THIS IS, YOU KNOW, LINKING WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN TERMS OF CRIMES, BAIL REFORM IS IN ACCURATE.

FEAR MONGERING.

THE OTHER SIDE WOULD DEBATE THAT AS WELL.

SO WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO SEE WHAT HAPPENS IN ALBANY THIS YEAR.

>> PROFESSOR, A LOT OF POLITICAL FIGURES HAVE CRITICIZED THE NEW D.A., BUT THE MAYOR HAS NOT.

IN FACT, THE MAYOR HAS SAID THAT HE'S ON THE SAME PAGE OR HE SAID A WHILE AGO THAT HE WAS ON THE SAME PAGE AS D.A.

BRAGG.

THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE.

DO THEY HAVE TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE IN ORDER FOR MAYOR ADAMS TO FULFILL HIS PROMISES REGARDING CRIME PREVENTION, FIGHTING CRIME IN THE CITY?

>> WELL, AGAIN, AS WAS THE CASE WITH THE DEFUND THE POLICE, YOU KNOW, EPISODE OVER THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS OR SLOGAN, YOU KNOW, THE NEW D.A.

HAS PRESENTED A POLITICAL PROBLEM AS MUCH AS A PRACTICAL PROBLEM, YOU KNOW.

THE LANGUAGE AND ALSO I THINK THE VERY REAL EMPHASIS ON NOT POLICING AND NOT CRIMINALIZING AND ADJUDICATING THE USE OF GUNS BY SUBJECTS AND VIOLENT CRIMES, CERTAINLY FAR FROM PROBLEMATIC AND DEEPLY DISTURBING.

HAVING SAID THAT, I UNDERSTAND THE SPIRIT WITH WHICH HIS MEMO WAS WRITTEN, WHICH IS TO DE-EMPHASIZE PETTY CRIMES, YOU KNOW, KIDS HOPPING THE TRAIN SHOULD NOT DO TIME IN JAIL AND THE LIKE.

AND I THINK ALL OF US ARE FOR, YOU KNOW, REORIENTING OUR SOCIETY ALONG LINES THAT DIRECTS ATTENTION BY POLICE TOWARDS THE MOST VIOLENT OFFENDERS.

BUT YOU CAN'T HAVE IN WRITING NOR IN REALITY THE IDEA THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE COMMITTING VIOLENT CRIMES WITH GUNS, EVEN THOSE THAT MAY LOOK LIKE GUNS BUT MAY NOT BE, CAN SOMEHOW BE MISDEMEANORS.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S WHAT THE COMMUNITY IS SAYING.

SO I THINK THAT PRESENTS A REAL PROBLEM FOR THE MAYOR IN TERMS OF, YES, ONE, SUPPORTING POLICE AND MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY WHO WANT TO SEE THEIR LOVED ONES NOT GO OFF UPSTATE OR ELSEWHERE FOR COMMITTING A CRIME THAT'S REALLY MARGINAL IN THE SCHEME OF THINGS.

IT'S A REAL POLITICAL PROBLEM.

IT'S A PROBLEM IN REALITY AS WELL.

>> RAFAEL, DO YOU THINK THAT THE MAYOR AND THE D.A.

ARE ON THE SAME PAGE AS FAR AS CRIME FIGHTING IS CONCERNED?

AND IF THEY'RE NOT, DO YOU THINK THEY NEED TO BE IN ORDER FOR THE MAYOR TO BE SUCCESSFUL?

>> THEY CERTAINLY DON'T SEEM TO HAVE BEEN ON THE SAME PAGE, NOT FOR THE EARLY PART OF BOTH OF THEIR TENURE.

ALSO IN THE LEAD UP TO THE ELECTION, THEY WERE BOTH SINGING VERY DIFFERENT TUNES ON THE CRIME ISSUE.

AND I DO THINK THEY HAVE TO BE ON THE SAME PAGE IF MAYOR ADAMS IS GOING TO BE SUCCESSFUL IN DELIVERING ON HIS PROMISES TO GET CRIME UNDER CONTROL.

ONE OF THE THINGS WE'VE SEEN WITH THIS KIND OF RE-FUNDING THE POLICE MOVEMENT IS IT'S NOT ENOUGH IN AND OF ITSELF, IT'S NECESSARY BUT NOT SUFFICIENT.

THE REALITY IS YOU NEED ALL PARTS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM ACTING IN CONCERT.

THEY CANNOT BE WORKING AT CROSS PURPOSES.

POLICE ARE MAKING ARRESTS AND CONCENTRATING THE RESOURCES ON THE DRIVERS OF CRIME AND THOSE ARRESTS ARE NOT GETTING PURSUED WITH PROSECUTION, THAT PRESENTS A REAL PROBLEM NOT JUST FOR PUBLIC SAFETY, BUT ALSO FOR MAYOR ADAMS AND HIS POLITICAL FUTURE.

BECAUSE WHAT HE WANTS TO DO IS DELIVER ON THE CRIME PROBLEM.

I DO THINK THAT THE SPIRIT OF THE DAY, ONE MEMO DID REFLECT THIS, SENDS WE SHOULD DE-EMPHASIZE LOW LEVEL ENFORCEMENT.

THERE WAS NOBODY DOING TIMES FOR FARE EVASION.

NEW YORK HAD ALREADY BEEN ONE OF THE NATION'S LEADERS ON DECARCERATION AND DE-PROSECUTING.

FARE WAS NOT BEING PROSECUTED.

WHAT ALVIN BRAGG IS GO FORWARD BEYOND WHAT HIS PREDECESSORS HAVE DONE, WHAT OTHER PROSECUTORS IN OTHER JURISDICTIONS HAVE DONE.

I THINK THE MAYOR IS SAYING HE'S NOT ON THE SAME PAGE AS ALBANY.

THE REALITY IS WHEN YOU DRASTICALLY INCREASE THE SIZE OF THE POPULATION NOW SPENDING TIME PRE-TRIAL OUTSIDE, THAT POPULATION IS GOING TO HAVE MORE OPPORTUNITIES TO COMMIT MORE CRIME AND THAT'S WHAT'S HAPPENED.

>> ALL RIGHT.

WE ONLY HAVE THREE MINUTES LEFT.

WE HAVE TO MOVE ON, SO A COUPLE QUESTIONS ABOUT COVID.

JEAN MARIE, CASES OF COVID ARE FALLING QUICKLY AROUND THE COUNTRY.

IN NEW YORK STATE CASES ARE DOWN 5% IN THE LAST TWO WEEKS.

HOSPITALIZATIONS ARE ALSO DOWN AND DEATHS ARE ALSO DOWN IN NEW YORK STATE, ALTHOUGH THEY'RE UP IN OTHER PARTS OF THE COUNTRY.

THE CURRENT NEW YORK STATE MASK MANDATES FOR BUSINESSES ARE SET TO EXPIRE THIS THURSDAY, FEBRUARY 10th.

AND THE STATE'S MASK MANDATES FOR SCHOOLS EXPIRE ON THE 21st.

WE JUST HEARD TODAY THAT THE GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY IS GOING TO END SCHOOL MANDATES, MASK MANDATES NEXT MONTH.

AND LAST FRIDAY, THE GOVERNOR OF NEW YORK APPEARED TO BE SOFTENING HER HARD MASK OR VAX STANCE.

DO YOU BELIEVE THAT THE STATE'S MASK MANDATES WILL ACTUALLY END AS SCHEDULED?

AND IF THEY DO, WILL THE NEW YORK CITY'S MORE RIGOROUS MASK AND VAX MANDATES SOON FOLLOW?

>> I DON'T WANT TO MAKE ANY PLEA DI -- PREDICTIONS IN TERMS OF WHEN THEY WILL END AND THE OUTLINES REMAIN TO BE SEEN.

GOVERNOR HOCHUL HAS LIKE YOU SAID HINTED.

SHE SAID SOMETHING LIKE WE'RE GOING TO MAKE AN ANNOUNCEMENT ABOUT THAT SOON, WHICH USUALLY MEANS THERE IS GOING TO BE SOME CHANGE COMING, RIGHT.

I THINK THE BIG ONE OBVIOUSLY IS PEOPLE ARE WAITING TO SEE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN WITH SCHOOLS.

AS YOU SAID, NEW JERSEY WILL BE DOING AWAY WITH THEIR MASK MANDATE I THINK STARTING IN MARCH.

AND THE GOVERNOR HAS INDICATED SHE'S GOING TO BE WATCHING THE DATA ON THAT AND REALLY PAYING ATTENTION TO CASE NUMBERS.

I THINK IT WILL ALSO BE KIND OF DEPENDENT ON, YOU KNOW, HOW MUCH OF A PORTION OF CHILD'S GROUP 5 AND ABOVE ARE GETTING VACCINATED AND IF THOSE NUMBERS ARE GOING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

THAT COULD POTENTIALLY HAPPEN, BUT WHEN I DON'T KNOW.

AS FOR NEW YORK CITY, I COULD SEE THE MANDATE STICKING AROUND MAYBE A LITTLE BIT LONGER HERE, BUT I ALSO -- IT'S HARD TO PREDICT, LIKE EVERYTHING WITH THIS PANDEMIC.

I THINK IT'S BEEN, YOU KNOW, THINGS CHANGE PRETTY QUICKLY.

>> WE ONLY HAVE A MINUTE LEFT.

I'VE GOT TO ASK THIS.

WHATEVER THE CITY AND THE STATE DECIDES, IT'S MY SENSE THAT NEW YORKERS ARE DONE WITH THE PANDEMIC.

THAT BARRING A VERY VICIOUS VARIANT COMING OUR WAY, THAT NEW YORKERS ARE WILLING TO LIVE WITH THE ENDEMIC JUST LIKE THEY'RE WILLING TO LIVE WITH THE FLU.

IS THAT YOUR SENSE?

QUICKLY, LET ME START WITH YOU, PROFESSOR.

>> YEAH, IT IS MY SENSE.

LOOK, WE'RE STILL SEEING, YOU KNOW, 2,500 PEOPLE OR SO DYING IN THE COUNTRY A DAY.

THESE ARE 9/11 KIND OF NUMBERS.

WE'RE STILL AT, BUT YOUR POINT TAKEN AS THE NUMBERS OF CASES AND HOSPITALIZATIONS DECLINE, I THINK NEW YORKERS, NEW JERSEYANS, PEOPLE IN THE TRI-STATE AREA WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING HARD WITH THIS IFPHENOMEN THE LAST SEVERAL YEARS DIDN'T GET VAX'D AND BOOSTED AS PEOPLE IN THE OTHER PART OF THE COUNTRY.

YOU DON'T SEE THE HUNKERING DOWN LIKE NEW YORK CITY.

THEY WANT A RAINBOW AT THE END OF THIS, POT OF GOLD, THEY WANT A REWARD FOR HAVING PLAYED BY THE RULES, IF YOU WILL, AND DON'T INTEND TO GO ON FOREVER.

>> WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO END IT THERE.

THANK YOU, GUYS, SORRY TO END SO ABRUPTLY, WE'RE OUT OF TIME.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HELPING.

>> THANK YOU.

>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY -- ♪