♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO THE "METROFOCUS" FRONT PAGE FORECAST.

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

IN THIS WEEK'S LOOK AHEAD AT THE MAJOR HEADLINES, THE TRISTATE DIGS OUT AFTER A WINTER STORM HAMMERED THE REGION, DROPPING UP TO TWO FEET OF SNOW AND REPORTEDLY KILLING AT LEAST FOUR PEOPLE ON LONG ISLAND.

IN THE AFTERMATH OF THE STORM, GOVERNOR HOCHUL AND MAYOR ERIC ADAMS ARE BOTH MEETING THIS WEEK WITH PRESIDENT BIDEN AMID NEW YORK'S GROWING GUN VIOLENCE CRISIS.

SO, TONIGHT, WE'LL DISCUSS WHAT NEW YORK LEADERS WANT FROM THE PRESIDENT AND CONGRESS.

WE'LL ALSO UNPACK WHAT'S NEXT FOR THE CITY'S BLUEPRINT TO END GUN VIOLENCE.

THIS, AS THE NYPD PREPARES TO SAY A FINAL GOOD-BYE TO THE SECOND POLICE OFFICER KILLED IN THE HARLEM SHOOTING AMBUSH AND COMMUNITY LEADERS RAISE THEIR CONCERNS ABOUT THE MAYOR'S NEW POLICING PLAN.

SO, FOR MUCH MORE ON THESE STORIES, AS WELL AS THEIR TAKE ON WHAT CAN BE IN THE NEWS THIS WEEK, WE WELCOME BACK TO "METROFOCUS" DR. DARRIN PORCHER.

HE IS A PACE UNIVERSITY CRIMINAL JUSTICE PROFESSOR.

HE IS A NATIONALLY ACCLAIMED EXPERT WITNESS AND A RETIRED NYPD LIEUTENANT.

DR. DARRIN PORCHER, IT IS GREAT TO HAVE YOU BACK ON "METROFOCUS."

>> ALWAYS A PLEASURE, JENNA.

>> WE'D LIKE TO WELCOME BACK RAFAEL MANGUAL.

RAFAEL IS A SENIOR FELLOW AT THE MANHATTAN SINCE TUT AND HEAD OF RESEARCH FOR THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTE.

HE IS ALSO A CONTRIBUTOR FOR "CITY JOURNAL."

GREAT TO YHAVE YOU.

>> GREAT TO BE BACK.

>> AND FOR THE FIRST TIME, JODI MORALES.

SHE IS A CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY, SOCIAL JUSTICE ADVOCATE AND COMMISSIONER FOR THE NEW YORK CITY BOARD OF ELECTIONS.

JODI, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS, IT'S A PRIVILEGE TO BE HERE.

>> SO, FIRST, I WANT TO START WITH THE GOVERNOR AND THE MAYOR.

WHAT WE KNOW SO FAR IS THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL IS PLANNING ON ATTENDING THE NATIONAL GOVERNOR'S ASSOCIATION MEETING IN WASHINGTON TODAY, I BELIEVE AS WE'RE ACTUALLY TAPING AND SO MAYOR ADAMS IS ALSO SET TO MEET WITH THE PRESIDENT LATER THIS WEEK.

DR. PORCHER, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, DO YOU KNOW, PERHAPS, WHAT THEY MIGHT BE LOOKING FUR AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, WHAT YOU THINK THEY SHOULD BE PUSHING FOR FROM THE PRESIDENT?

>> I THINK THAT THIS IS A GREAT OPPORTUNITY FOR BOTH THE GOVERNOR AND THE NEWLY ELECTED MAYOR TO INTRODUCE THE PROBLEM THAT IS PLAGUING NEW YORKERS IN CONNECTION WITH GUN VIOLENCE.

THIS HAS BECOME MORE OF A NATIONAL ISSUE THAT IS GARNERING GREATER ATTENTION AND THE RESOURCES HAVE NOT BEEN FULFILLED ON A LOCALIZED LEVEL.

ONE OF THE THING WE LOOK BACK AT DURING THE DEATH OF GEORGE FLOYD, WE HAD THIS PUBLIC OUTCRY FOR DEFUNDING POLICE BUT THE FOCUS WAS NOT THE POLICE REFORM.

AND I THINK POLICE REFORM SHOULD HAVE BEEN THE AGENDA THAT WE SHOULD HAVE INTRODUCED IN THE WAKE OF ATROCITIES THAT HAVE OCCURRED IN THE PAST.

I WAS A PRIOR LIEUTENANT IN THE NYPD'S INTERNAL AFFAIRS BUREAU.

I INVESTIGATED OFFICERS FOR MISCONDUCT.

SO, AS WE MOVE FORWARD IN CONNECTION WITH THIS SUMMIT, THIS UP AND COMING SUMMIT BETWEEN THE PRESIDENT AND OUR ELECTED OFFICIALS HERE IN NEW YORK, I THINK THAT THE PUSH SHOULD BE FOR GREATER RESOURCES AND WHEN I SAY GREATER RESOURCES, THAT DOESN'T MEAN JUST THROWING MONEY AT THE PROBLEM AND IT'S GOING TO GO AWAY, WE NEED IMPER CALL SOLUTIONS THAT NEED TO BE INTRODUCED AS OPPOSED TO GREATER MANPOWER AND GREATER EXISTENCE OF PLAIN CLOTHES UNITS.

I THINK PLAIN CLOTHES UNITS ARE AN ESSENTIAL TOOL IN ERADICATING GUN VIOLENCE, BUT THE ULTIMATE GOAL IS TO BRIDGE THAT POLICE AND UNCOMMUNITY RELATIONSHIP AN IT'S THAT PARTNERSHIP THAT REMAINS SUPREME.

SO, WHAT TOOLS CAN BE EMPLOY POLICE AND COMMUNITY WITH TO UPHOLD THAT PARTNERSHIP TO ENSURE THAT WE CAN ERADICATE THE GUN VIOLENCE THAT'S PLAGUING OUR CITY, BECAUSE THE MORE TIPS THAT WE HAVE, THEY'RE FLOWING TO LAW ENFORCEMENT, THE GREATER THEIR ABILITY TO INTRADIKT PROBLEMS BEFORE THEY OCCUR.

>> RAFAEL, DO YOU THINK THIS IS SOMETHING WHERE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO STEP IN AND PROVIDE ASSISTANT TO THE CITY AND THE STATE?

>> I DO.

LOOK, OF COURSE THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT'S ROLE IN COMBATTING WHAT IS ESSENTIALLY A LOCALIZED PROBLEM IS GOING TO BE LIMITED BECAUSE OF OUR SEPARATION OF POWERS, BUT THEY DO HAVE A ROLE TO PLAY, AND THAT'S WITH THE FUNDING MECHANISM.

THERE ARE A COUPLE OF THINGS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT SHOULD CONSIDER DOING.

ONE IS FUNDING THE HIRING OF MORE POLICE OFFICERS.

WE SAW THAT SINCE 2020, AND PRIOR TO 2020, THERE HAS BEEN A REAL CRISIS ACROSS POLICE DEPARTMENTS WITH HIRING AND RETENTION.

THE NYPD DROPPED 7% IN 2020 COMPARED TO 2019.

WE NEED TO DO OUR BEST TO BACK FILL THOSE OFFICERS, BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE KNOW IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAYS TO COMBAT CRIME IS TOLL ADD POLICE TO THE BEAT.

ANOTHER THING IS FUNDING JOINT TASK FORCES.

FEDERAL AND STATE TASK FORCES.

THIS IS ACTUALLY AN INTERESTING WAY AROUND SOME OF THE BARRIERS THAT HAVE BEEN PUT UP BY LOCAL D.A.

'S THAT HAVE SORT OF PROMISED NOT TO PURSUE THINGS LIKE PRETRIAL DETENTION OR HARSH POSTCONVICTION SENTENCES.

IF YOU CAN FIND AREAS OF CONCURRENT JURISDICTION, YOU MIGHT BE ABLE TO SIDESTEP THOSE REFORMS AND GET MORE TIME.

AND IT REALLY IS JUST A TINY SLICE OF OFFENDERS.

IN NEW YORK, ABOUT 5% OF THE CITY STREET SEGMENTS SEE ABOUT HALF THE CITY'S CRIME.

IT'S REALLY ONLY ABOUT 5% TO 10% OF THE PEOPLE LIVING IN THOSE PLACES THAT ARE DRIVING IT.

IF WE CAN USE INTELLIGENCE, TECHNOLOGY TO FIND THOSE PEOPLE, WE CAN ENJOY THE BENEFITS OF THE RESULT.

>> SO THEN, JODI, THIS IS WHY I WANT TO BRING YOU INTO THE CONVERSATION, BECAUSE I WOULD IMAGINE AS A SOCIAL JUSTICE ADVOCATE, YOU ARE AWARE THAT THERE ARE SEVERAL -- NOT ALL PEOPLE IN A LOT OF THE EFFECTED COMMUNITIES, BUT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE RAISING ALARMS ABOUT THE IDEA OF THE RETURN OF PLAIN CLOTHES UNITS AND SOME OF THE OTHER PLANS THAT, AT LEAST, MAYOR ADAMS HAS PUT FORWARD.

>> CERTAINLY.

AND JUST TO PIGGY BACK OFF OF WHAT MR. MANGUAL HAS SAID, THERE HAS BEEN NOTHING STOPPING THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT FROM STEPPING IN THROUGHOUT THIS ENTIRE PERIOD OF TIME AND TAKING OVER THESE GUN PROSECUTIONS.

AS A PRACTICING CRIMINAL DEFENSE ATTORNEY WITH ALMOST 14 YEARS IN THE BUSINESS, I CAN TELL YOU THAT THAT HAS HAPPENED OVER AND OVER AND OVER.

I DON'T THINK THAT THIS PARTICULAR PART OF THE MAYOR'S PLAN IS REALLY GOING TO MAKE ANY SORT OF HEADWAY, LIKE I SAID, THEY'VE ALREADY HAD THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT AND DO IT OFTEN.

WHAT WE HAVE TO CONSIDER IS THAT WE'RE IN A SITUATION RIGHT NOW WHERE EVERYBODY CAN PASSING THE BUCK.

YOU'VE GOT LAW MAKERS ARGUING THAT JUDGES HAVE MORE POWER UNDER THE LAW THAN WHAT THEY'RE USING, YOU'VE GOT JUDGES ARGUING THAT THEY MUST APPLY THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE MEANS CRITERIA WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT SETTING BAIL AND SAYING THEY HAVE LITTLE DISCRETION TO DO MORE.

WE HAVE OUR MAYOR ASKING LAWMAKERS TO PUT DANGEROUSNESS BACK ON THE BOOKS AND THE CRITERIA IN TERMS OF SETTING BAIL.

AND THEN ON TOP OF ALL OF THAT, WE'VE GOT OVERLOADED JAILS THAT HAVE BECOME THE BREEDING GROUND FOR DISEASE AND DEATH.

AND WHAT'S GETTING LOST IN ALL OF THIS ARE THE UNDERLYING ISSUES OF MENTAL HEALTH AND ACCESS TO RESOURCES.

YOU DON'T LESSEN CRIME BY INCARCERATING PEOPLE, YOU LESSEN CRIME BY ELIMINATING POVERTY AND YOU LESSEN VIOLENCE BY CREATING STRONG, HAPPY AND HEALTHY COMMUNITIES THAT DON'T HAVE TO FIGHT OVER MATERIAL RESOURCES.

SO, OF COURSE, THESE THINGS THAT ARE GOING TO COME INTO OUR COMMUNITIES, HYPER VIGILANT, ARE NOT GOING TO HELP US FEEL ANY SAFER, THEY ARE GOING TO BE MORE POLARIZING THAN WHAT WE ALREADY ARE DEALING WITH.

>> IF I COULD GENTLY DISAGREE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> I THINK THERE IS A BIT OF A GAP BETWEEN WHAT THE DATA SAYS AND WHAT WAS JUST SAID ABOUT THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN POVERTY AND VIOLENCE.

I'LL THROW OUT A COUPLE OF DATA POINTS TO CONSIDER.

IN 1989, THE YEAR BEFORE NEW YORK CITY SAW ITS PEAK MURDER NUMBER OF 262, OUR POVERTY RATE WAS LOWER THAN IN 2016, WHERE WE SAW 292.

CRIME NUMBERS HAVE NOT TRACKED WITH NUMBERS LIKE POVERTY RATE, LIKE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE.

IN 2007 TO 2010, WE SAW A HUGE EXPLOSION OF UNEMPLOYMENT.

VIOLENT CRIME DECREASED.

THAT'S BECAUSE WE U-- THAT'S A REAL NUMBER.

>> AND WHAT ABOUT RECIDIVISM?

I HAVE TO BRING THAT UP, BECAUSE IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HAVING SOMEONE INCARCERATED, SURE, WE'RE ABATING CRIME WHILE THERE THERE.

WHEN THEY ARE BROUGHT BACK OUT, NOT GIVEN ANY SORT OF RESOURCES OR COMMUNITY STABILITY, THEY ARE LIKELY TO REOFFEND.

WHAT IS THE PURSE?

WE'RE NOT GETTING ANYWHERE IF WE'RE NOT INVESTING THE MONEY IN THE RIGHT PLACE.

INCARCERATING PEOPLE, AS WE KNOW, DOES NOT HELP OUR COMMUNITY.

>> AGAIN, I WOULD DISAGREE, I MEAN, OF COURSE, THE RECIDIVISM RATE IS ATROCIOUS IN THIS COUNTRY, WE'RE LOOKING AT 83% OF PRISONERS WHO REOFFEND ONCE ON AVERAGE, BUT TO ME, THAT'S JUST AN ARGUMENT FOR HARSHER POSTCONVICTION SENTENCES.

WE KNOW THE MEDIUM AMOUNT OF TIME THAT SOMEONE SPENDS IN STATE PRISON IS ONLY ABOUT 16 MONTHS, WHICH IS NOT A PARTICULARLY LONG TIME, ESPECIALLY IF YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT HIGH RATE OFFENDERS.

THERE ARE RESEARCH SHOWING THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT ENGAGED IN PARTICULARLY SERIOUS TYPES OF CRIME AND WHO DO NOT OFFEND AT A HIGH RATE, THAT INCARCERATING THEM COULD PRODUCE RECIDIVISM RATES THAT WOULD OUTWEIGH THE BENEFITS THAT WERE ENJOYED WHILE THEY WERE INCARCERATED, BUT THAT IS NOT A BODY OF RESEARCH THAT CAN BE GENERALIZED TO THE BROADER INCARCERATED POPULATION.

>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY FOR THIS TOPIC, WHILE IT IS CRITICALLY IMPORTANT THAT WE DO CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION, I DO WANT TO MOVE ON SLIGHTLY AND TO DR. PORCHER, I WANT TO BUILD ON THIS ISSUE AND ASK YOU THE QUESTION, DOES IT TELL YOU ANYTHING THAT WHEN THE NEW MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ALVIN BRAGG FIRST CAME IN, HE CAME IN WITH THIS INTENSE, OR PART OF HIS CAMPAIGN PROMISE WAS CERTAIN LOW LEVEL CRIMES WERE BEING DEALT WITH IN THE COURT SYSTEM AND NOW WE'VE LEARNED THAT PERHAPS AFTER SOME CONVERSATIONS WITH GOVERNOR HOCHUL AND MOST LIKELY MAYOR ADAMS, AS WELL, THAT HE HAS PIVOTED ON THAT POINT.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT THE WAY THAT CRIME AND GUN VIOLENCE, AT LEAST VIOLENT CRIME IN NEW YORK, IS GOING TO BE HANDLED REGARDLESS OF WHAT WAS SAID ON THE CAMPAIGN TRAIL?

>> WELL, WHEN WE LOOK TO THE TESTAMENT OF NEWLY ELECTED DISTRICT ATTORNEY FOR THE COUNTY OF MANHATTAN'S STATEMENTS ON HOW HE WAS LOOKING TO NOT PROSECUTE CERTAIN LOW LEVEL OFFENSES, I THINK HE WAS FOCUSES MORE TOWARDS CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM, BUT AT THE SAME TOKEN, HE DIDN'T HAVE A LEVEL OF INCUMBENCY IN THE OFFICE TO GENUINELY UNDERSTAND THE SCHEMATIC OF WHAT WORKS IN NEW YORK COUNTY.

SO, ONCE HE -- ONCE HE BECAME SEATED, HE IMMEDIATELY HAD A DOZEN-PLUS DISTRICT ATTORNEY, SENIOR DISTRICT ATTORNEYATTORNE LEFT THAT OFFICE BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T IN LINE WITH THAT POLICY.

HE'S SINCE WALKED IT BACK.

BUT ONE THING I BELIEVE THAT DID, IT PRESENTED A PSYCHOLOGICAL EFFECT ON PEOPLE THAT ARE LOOKING TO OFFEND IN THE COUNTY OF MANHATTAN, WHICH ALLOWED THEM TO THINKIMPUNITY.

RIGHT NOW, I DON'T WANT TO SAY WE'RE UNDER SIEGE, BUT WE'RE EXPERIENCING A RISE IN CRIME IN ALL OF THE FIVE BOROUGHS.

WHEN WE LOOK IN MANHATTAN, WHAT WORKS FOR THE CITIZENS?

YOU, AS THE DISTRICT ATTORNEY, ARE ELECTED TO UPHOLD THE RULE OF LAW.

YOU CAN HAVE YOUR PERSONAL CONVICTIONS, THAT'S FINE, BUT YOU NEED TO CHECK THAT AT THE DOOR AND YOU NEED TO HAVE A STRATEGY THAT WORKS FOR THE CITIZENS OF THAT PARTICULAR COUNTY.

I THINK IN MANY INSTANCES, HE WAS CONSUMED BY THE SENTIMENT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM THAT WAS COMING FROM THE EXTREME LEFT OR THE PROGRESSIVE MOVEMENT.

THAT'S ULTIMATELY WHO GOT HIM ELECTED AND HE FELT HE CAN EXECUTE ON THAT WHEN HE CAME INTO OFFICE, BUT HE CLEARLY SEES THAT IS NOT WHERE IT IS.

I'M HOPEFUL THAT THE PIVOT THAT ALVIN BRAGG HAS MADE MENTION TO IS SOMETHING THAT HE WILL EXECUTE ON, BUT IT REMANES TO BE SEEN.

I'M A FIRM BELIEVER IN THIS, ANY ELECTED OFFICIAL THAT COMES INTO OFFICE, YOU GOT 365 DAYS TO TURN THINGS AROUND.

AFTER 365 DAYS, YOU OWN IT, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OR NOT.

YOU CAN'T BLAME THE PERSONNEL WHO WAS IN THERE PRIOR TO YOU, YOU NEED TO BE THAT PERSON THAT EXECUTES ON A FORMIDABLE STRATEGY.

ANOTHER THING THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL MADE MENTION TO IS, SHE DOES HAVE THE ABILITY TO PROVIDE OVERSIGHT IF THE RULE OF LAW IS NOT BEING UPHELD, SO, I'M HOPEFUL THAT THAT CONVERSATION BETWEEN ALVIN BRAGG AND THE GOVERNOR HAS PUT HIM IN A PLACE WHERE HE UNDERSTOOD, IT'S NO LONGER WHAT HE WANTS TO DO, BUT WHAT HE HAS TO DO AND ULTIMATELY, IT'S FOR THE PUBLIC SAFETY OF THE RESIDENTS IN THEM.

>> I ALSO THEN WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT A SUBJECT THAT WE WERE JUST DISCUSSING A MOMENT AGO, AND THAT IS, A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE PROGRESSIVE LEFT ARE SAYING THAT, YOU KNOW, USUALLY THE WINTERTIME IS A SLOWDOWN FOR CRIME, FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION, WE TEND TO SEE LESS VIOLENCE CRIME IN THE STREETS AND THAT'S NOT HAPPENING THIS YEAR.

THERE'S A LOT OF UNDERLYING SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC ISSUES THAT, OF COURSE, WE ALL KNOW, WERE EXACERBATED BY THE PANDEMIC.

HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK OF TRULY ADDRESSING THE ISSUE OF VIOLENT CRIME MEANS ALSO ADDRESSING THESE UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT SEEM TO BE THE CAUSES THAT LEAD PEOPLE INTO SOME OF THESE CHOICES THAT END UP HARMING THE ENTIRE COMMUNITY?

>> THAT'S A GREAT POINT, JENNA, AND I BELIEVE IT'S ALL COMPREHENSIVE IN TERMS OF HOW YOU DRIVE THE DIRECTION OF C CRIME.

WE'RE AT THE 31st OF JANUARY, SO, WE'RE FOUR WEEKS IN AND WE'VE EXPERIENCED THIS TREMENDOUS RISE IN CRIME.

I FEEL A LOT OF THIS WAS A BYPRODUCT OF THE INABILITY WITHIN THE DE BLASIO ADMINISTRATION TO WRAP THEIR ARMS AROUND CRIME REDUCTION AND IT HAS MANIFESTED IN ERIC ADAMS, THE NEWLY ELECTED MAYOR, HAS TO COME IN AND DO WHATEVER HE CAN TO BRING THE NUMBERS DOWN.

WE LOOK AT THE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS AND THAT'S BEEN A REAL PROBLEM FOR YEARS ON END.

JUST ONE OF THE THINGS, WHEN BILL DE BLASIO WAS IN OFFICE, HIS WIFE HAD A PROGRAM THAT SHE WAS CHAIRING, WHICH WAS REFERRED TO AS THRIVE NYC.

$900 MILLION THAT WAS EARMARKED FOR THRIVE NYC, THAT MONEY WENT UNACCOUNTED FOR AND THERE'S NO ANSWERS AND SO, AS A RESULT OF THAT, WE SEE THIS HOMELESS CRISIS THAT IS REALLY ALL OVER THE PLACE, MENTAL HEALTH IS A REAL ISSUE.

I THINK THAT POLICING NEEDS TO BE -- WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT FROM A DIFFERENT LENS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE ENFORCEMENT, IT'S NOT JUST THE POLICE AND THE COMMUNITY RELATIONSHIP, BUT IT'S HOW CAN WE HAVE DIFFERENT COMPONENTS WORKING IN UNISON, BE IT MENTAL HEALTH, POLICE PRACTITIONERS AND SOCIAL SERVICE WORKERS THAT CAN COME TOGETHER AND ADDRESS A LOT OF THE ISSUES THAT WE HAVE IN OUR SOCIETY.

OFTENTIMES POLICE, WHETHER YOU LIKE IT OUR NOT, THEY ARE THE POSITION OF DEFAULT, AT 2:00 ON A TUESDAY, THERE'S NO ONE THERE BUT POLICE.

GRANTED, WE ALWAYS SEE POLICE AS THE INDIVIDUALS OR THE ORGANIZATION THAT DEALS WITH CRIME, BUT IT'S FAR MORE MULTIFACETED THAN THAT AND HOPEFULLY WE CAN INCORPORATE OTHER PEOPLE THERE AND WE WON'T JUST DEPLOY THE POLICE OFFICER, BUT WE'LL HAVE ADDITIONAL PRACTITIONERS THAT CAN ASSIST POLICE AND ENGAGE IN THESE INCIDENTS IN DEALING WITH PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH.

AND I THINK THAT IS THE TRAJECTORY WE NEED TO GET ON AS OPPOSED TO JUST LOOKING AT THE OFFICERS AS OUR BEST LINE OF DEFENSE.

>> RAFAEL AND JODI, I PROMISE I'M GOING TO BRING YOU BACK INTO THIS, BUT DR. PORCHER, YOU LEAD ME INTO THE OTHER POINT, WHICH IS THE CITY IS PREPARING TO SAY GOOD-BYE TO ITS SECOND YOUNG OFFICER WHO PRETTY MUCH -- NOT PRETTY MUCH, THEY DID, THEY FOUND THEMSELVES IN THE VERY SITUATION THAT YOU DESCRIBED, WHERE THESE TWO YOUNG OFFICERS WERE RESPONDING TO A DOMESTIC VIOLENCE CALL IN HARLEM.

THERE'S NUMEROUS DIFFERENT WAYS THAT PEOPLE HAVE SUGGESTED THAT PERHAPS THIS COULD HAVE BEEN BETTER ADDRESSED IF THE NYPD HAD THE FACILITIES OR THE ABILITY TO DO OTHER THAN JUST DISPATCHING TWO YOUNG ROOKIE OFFICERS, BUT FIRST AND FOREMOST, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE AS A FORMER LIEUTENANT, JUST, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON THE LOSS OF THESE TWO YOUNG MEN?

>> I THINK WHENEVER WE HAVE THE LOSS OF A POLICE OFFICER, IT'S A LOSS FOR US AS A SOCIETY IN A WHOLE.

WHEN WE TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE SOCIAL CONTRACT, IT AFFORDS CITIZENS PROTECTIONS BY GOVERNMENT, WHICH IS REFLECTIVE OF POLICE IN THAT PARTICULAR COMPONENT.

AND SO, WE HAD AN OFFICER AND ULTIMATELY WAS GOING -- WE HAD SEVERAL OFFICERS THAT WERE GOING TO THE AID OF A MOTHER THAT CLAIMED THAT THERE WAS A DISPUTE OCCURRING AND THEN TWO OF THE OFFICERS TRAGICALLY LOST THEIR LIFE.

WHAT IS ALSO UNFORTUNATE IS THAT THE PERPETRATOR IN THIS CASE LOST THEIR LIVES, AS WELL.

WE WANT TO TAKE PEOPLE INTO CUSTODY WITH AS LITTLE FORCE AS POSSIBLE, BUT SOMETIMES YOU HAVE NO OTHER RESOURCE BUT TO USE DEADLY PHYSICAL FORCE, AS WE SAW IN THIS SITUATION.

YOU KNOW, WE LOOK TO THE TRAINING ASPECT, BECAUSE MANY PEOPLE MADE MENTION OF, LOOK, THIS WAS A JOON YOUR OFFICER, WHY DIDN'T WE HAVE A MORE SENIOR OFFICER ON THE SCENE, BUT I ALSO THINK, AND THIS IS SOMETHING BEING DONE, OFFICERS RECEIVING CALLS FOR ASSISTANCE ARE BEING TRANSMITTED OR, THEY HAVE THIS INFORMATION TRANSMITTED TO THEM IN CONNECTION WITH IF THE PERSON AT THAT PREMISE WAS CONVICTED OF A FELONY, WERE THERE ARRESTS WHAT WAS THE HISTORY IN THIS PARTICULAR LOCATION, WAS THERE A CRISIS OF MENTAL HEALTH AT LARGE IN THIS PARTICULAR RESIDENCE IN THE PAST?

SO, I THINK THESE ARE ESSENTIAL TOOLS FOR OFFICERS TO HAVE.

I THINK IT'S MORE OF A LEARNING CURVE, AND THIS IS SOMETHING THEY EXTRACTED FROM OVER IN LONDON.

THE LONDON POLICE DEPARTMENT WAS USING THIS SAME INFORMATION TECHNOLOGY, WHERE AS THE OFFICERS RECEIVING THIS TECHNOLOGY AND IT GAVE THEM THIS INFORMATION, BUT JUST NOT EVERYONE -- WE'RE CREATURES OF HABIT, NO ONE LIKES TO DO ANYTHING NEW, BUT I THINK THIS IS A NECESSARY PIECE AND IT GOES BACK TO WHAT I MENTIONED EARLIER, WHEN WE HAVE THESE CASES OF A PERSON THAT'S EXPERIENCING A MENTAL HEALTH ILLNESS, NOT SAYING THAT WAS THE CASE HERE, BUT WHATEVER TOOLS CAN BE OFFERED TO POLICE OFFICERS AND DISPATCH THEM IN ACCORDANCE WITH OTHER HEALTH PRACTITIONERS OR PRACTITIONERS THAT CAN ASSIST THEM IN THESE PARTICULAR SITUATIONS IN A RESPONSE, I AGREE WITH IT AND I STAND BEHIND IT.

AND WE'RE GOING THROUGH A REVOLUTION IN POLICING, BUT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I BELIEVE IS GENUINELY BEING INTRODUCED TO MAKE IT SAFER FOR BOTH OFFICERS AND CITIZENS IN THE CITY OF NEW YORK.

>> JODI, YOUR TAKE ON THAT TRAGIC SITUATION THAT HAPPENED IN HARLEM.

THERE WAS A LOT OF TALK, AT LEAST AFTER THE GEORGE FLOYD PROTESTS IN 2020, THAT THERE WERE BETTER WAYS TO HANDLE PUBLIC SAFETY AND THERE SHOULD BE PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS, ET CETERA, HOWEVER, THIS WAS CLEARLY AN ARMED INDIVIDUAL WHO WAS ABLE TO TAKE THE LIFE OF THESE TWO YOUNG OFFICERS.

SO, WHAT IS YOUR TAKE ON PERHAPS WHERE THE NYPD SHOULD TRY TO ADDRESS SIMILAR SITUATIONS WHEN THEY INEVITABLY COME UP?

>> WELL, FIRST AND FOREMOST, I MEAN, THIS WAS A TRAGEDY, A HUGE LOSS FOR OUR CITY.

THESE TWO OFFICERS HAD NOTHING BUT GOOD INTENTIONS, AT LEAST BASED ON SOME OF THE INFORMATION THAT I HEARD IN TERMS OF WHY THEY JOINED THE FORCE, WHAT THEY WANTED TO DO AS POLICE OFFICERS.

OF COURSE.

WE NEED TO DO MORE WITHIN OUR COMMUNITIES TO STRENGTHEN THE RELATIONSHIPS BETWEEN LAW ENFORCEMENT AND THE FOLKS THAT ARE WALKING AROUND EACH AND EVERY DAY WHO ALSO WANT A SAFE COMMUNITY.

I'M NOT SAYING DO AWAY WITH ALL POLICE OFFICERS.

I AM SAYING THAT WE NEED TO HAVE MORE PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICERS, WE DO NEED TO HAVE MENTAL HEALTH PROGR PROFESSIONALS ON CALL TO HANDLE THESE SITUATIONS SO WE DON'T HAVE TO FACE ANOTHER HORRIFIC EVENT JUST LIKE WE JUST DID.

>> RAFAEL, I MEAN, AGAIN, YOU STUDIED ALL THIS WITH THE MANHAT MANHATTAN INSTITUTE.

WHAT TO THE STATISTICS BEAR OUT TO YOU IF ANYTHING COULD HAVE BEEN DONE TO PREVENT SOMETHING LIKE THIS, AT LEAST FROM HAPPENING IN THE FUTURE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, ONE THING THAT THE STATISTICS BEAR OUT IS THAT WE CAN HAND OFF TO A SIGNIFICANT, OR A MAJORITY DEGREE THE RESPONSIBILITY OF POLICE OFFICERS TO RESPOND TO CALLS INVOLVING DOMESTIC DISPUTES, ISSUES OF MENTAL HEALTH, ET CETERA, I THINK THE STATISTICS SHOW THAT THIS IS JUST NOT POSSIBLE.

WE DON'T HAVE THE BANDWIDTH OF OTHER PEOPLE TO TAKE THAT ON.

THIS CALL CAME IN ON A FRIDAY NIGHT WHEN A LOT OF MENTAL HEALTH PROFESSIONALS ARE NOT WORKING.

POLICE ARE THE ONLY PEOPLE OUT THERE WHO ARE TAKING THESE CALLS WHEN THEY COME IN, WHICH IS OFTEN ON THE WEEKENDS, AT OFF HOURS, AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OVER 100,000 CALLS A YEAR, JUST FOR ISSUES INVOLVING MENTAL HEALTH, NOT INCLUDING DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

SO, I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE LIVE IN A WORLD, AT LEAST RIGHT NOW IN WHICH THE POLICE ARE GOING TOE HAVE TO CONTINUE TO PLAY A ROLE IN THIS.

SO, I DON'T THINK DIVERTING THESE RESPONSIBILITIES TO OTHER PARTIES IS A VIABLE SOLUTION.

I AGREE THAT TRAINING AND INFORMATION SHARING ARE IMPORTANT COMPONENTS OF ALL OF THIS, BUT THERE IS A LIMIT TO WHAT THAT COULD HAVE DONE TO MAKE THIS PARTICULAR SITUATION PLAY OUT DIFFERENTLY.

THESE OFFICERS WERE MURDERED BEFORE THEY WERE ABLE TO MAKE CONTACT WITH THE SUSPECT.

THEY WERE WALKING DOWN A HALLWAY.

THEY HAD NO OPPORTUNITY TO PUT THEIR TRAINING INTO PRACTICE.

THEY WERE MELT WITH GUN FIRE.

UNFORTUNATELY, THIS WAS JUST AN AMBUSH AND I'M NOT SURE IT WAS AVOIDABLE.

I'M NOT SURE IT WOULD HAVE PLAYED OUT DIFFERENTLY HAD WE HAD MORE SENIOR OFFICERS RESPONDING.

AND THAT IS, I THINK, WHAT REALLY GETS AT THE BRAVERY OF WHAT POLICE DO EVERY DAY.

THEY KNOCK ON THESE DOORS NOT REALLY KNOWING WHAT'S BEHIND THEM.

AND SOMETIMES WHAT'S BEHIND THEM IS GOING TO BE A MAD MAN WITH A GUN PULLING A TRIGGER AND ONE OF THE THINGS, I THINK WE CAN ALL DO BETTER IS TO COMMUNICATE OUR SENSE OF UNDERSTANDING WITH POLICE OFFICERS WHO I THINK ARE FEELING QUITE EMBATTLED RIGHT NOW.

THE SHOW AT THE FUNERAL LAST FRIDAY WAS HEARTWRENCHING AND EMOTIONAL AND I THINK THE FEELING IN THE AIR WAS THAT, YOU KNOW, AS A DEPARTMENT, THEY ARE JUST TIRED OF BEING PUT DOWN BY THE COMMUNITY AND BEING UNAPPRECIATED BY THE COMMUNITY.

AND I DO THINK THAT'S FEEDING THE RECRUITMENT AND RETENTION CRISIS THAT ALL DEPARTMENTS ARE DEALING WITH.

>> WELL, AGAIN, WE WILL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW THIS STORY LINE, BUT I'D BE REMISS IF I DIDN'T MENTION, OF COURSE, WE ARE AT THE VERY END OF OUR TIME TOGETHER, SO, I WILL ASK, IF YOU COULD GIVE A GRADE TO HOW WELL MAYOR ADAMS HANDLED HIS FIRST BLIZZARD IN NEW YORK AND DR. DARRIN, I'LL START WITH YOU.

>> I WOULD SAY A "B," BECAUSE WE'RE STILL GAINING STATISTICS AS TO WHAT HAPPENED IN TERMS OF EITHER CAR ACCIDENTS, PEOPLE THAT WERE INJURED AS A RESULT OF SANITATION'S ABILITY OR INABILITY TO CLEAN THE STREETS PROPERLY.

I'D GIVE HIM A "B" AND I THINK THAT'S SOLID.

>> OKAY, RAFAEL, A GRADE?

>> I'LL GIVE HIM AN A-MY NICE.

SO FAR, AT LEAST IN MY PERSONAL LIFE, I GOT ALL MY DELIVERIES, YOU KNOW, THE STREET'S IN PRETTY DECENT SHAPE, THE SIDEWALKS ARE IN GOOD SHAPE.

TRAINS WERE RUNNING MOSTLY ON TIME.

I'M NOT TERRIBLY UNHAPPY.

>> OKAY, AND JODI, FINAL WORD, WITH TEN SECONDS LEFT?

>> I'D GIVE HIM A B-PLUS.

MY NEIGHBORHOOD WAS CLEANED UP PRETTY QUICKLY, NOT WITHSTANDING THE OTHER ISSUES, I THINK HE DID A GREAT JOB THIS TIME.

>> ALL RIGHT, LISTEN, I'D LIKE TO THANK ALL OF MY ROUNDTABLE GUESTS, DR. DARRIN PORCHER, RAFAEL MANGUAL, AND OUR FIRST-TIME GUEST, JODI MORALES WHO I'M SURE WE WILL HAVE BACK.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR TAKING TIME TO JOIN US ON THE "METROFOCUS" ROUNDTABLE.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

♪ >>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY --