♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

HADDY ASKWITH CANTOR.

>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

TONIGHT WE BRING YOU PART II OF OUR SPECIAL FRONT PAGE FORECAST EXPLORING AN EVENT.

THIS EVENING FOCUS EXCLUSIVELY ON THE JANUARY 6th INSURRECTION AT THE U.S. CAPITOL AND THE BIGGEST QUESTIONS FACING OUR DEMOCRACY AS WE GET READY TO MARK ONE YEAR SINCE THE ATTACK.

NOW, AFTER WEEKS OF PRESIDENT TRUMP FALSELY CLAIMING THAT THE 2020 PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION WAS STOLEN, THE NATION WATCHED IN HORROR LAST YEAR AS RIOTERS VIOLENTLY FORCED THEIR WAY INTO THE HALLS OF CONGRESS ON LIVE TELEVISION IN AN ATTEMPT TO STOP CERTIFICATION OF THE ELECTION RESULTS.

WHILE THE RIOTERS WERE EVENTUALLY CLEARED OUT, THE ATTACK PROVED JUST HOW FRAGILE DEMOCRACY CAN BE IN THE FACE OF THOSE WHO WISH TO OVERTHROW IT.

IT'S ALSO LED TO SOME MAJOR CONCERNS THAT SOME IN THE GOP COULD SUBVERT RESULTS OF THE NEXT PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION.

SO AS PART OF OUR EXPLORING HATE INITIATIVE, EXAMINING THE ROOTS AND RISE OF ANTI-SEMITISM, RACISM AND EXTREMISM IN AMERICA, TONIGHT WE'LL REVISIT THE EVENTS OF LAST JANUARY AND WHAT'S AHEAD FOR THE COUNTRY A YEAR LATER.

SO JOINING ME ONCE AGAIN TO DISCUSS AS OUR PANEL OF EXPERTS, FIRST WE WELCOME BACK KIRK A FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE AND CURRENT LAW SCHOOL DIRECTOR AND DIRECTOR OF 21st CENTURY POLICING PROJECT.

WELCOME BACK TO "METROFOCUS."

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> ALSO WELCOMING AGAIN TO JOSEPH, OF COURSE, A REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST.

CHAIR OF THE CONSERVATIVE COLOR COALITION AND HOST OF THE CABLE NEWS PROGRAM "SATURDAY AGENDA."

WELCOME BACK.

>> GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> AND JOINED AGAIN BY ALYSSA KATZ, DEPUTY DIRECTOR AT THE CITY, THE NONPROFIT NEWS WEBSITE COVERING NEW YORK.

ALYSSA, WELCOME BACK TO "METROFOCUS."

>> GLAD TO BE BACK.

>> SO ALYSSA, I WANT TO START WITH YOU, AND IF YOU COULD SORT OF TAKE US BACK TO PERHAPS THE BEGINNING OF JANUARY 6th.

HOW DID THAT DAY START OUT?

CAN YOU SET THE SCENE FOR WHAT LED TO THE INSURRECTION THAT WE ALL EVENTUALLY SAW?

>> SURE.

AND I WANT TO GO BACK EVEN FURTHER, EVEN BEFORE ELECTION DAY OF 2020, BECAUSE WE HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THE THEN PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP HAD ALREADY LAID THE GROUNDWORK FOR CASTING DOUBTS ON THE ELECTION RESULT AND RAISED QUESTIONS ABOUT ELECTION INTEGRITY, TALKED ABOUT VOTER FRAUD, AND SO THAT ONCE THE ELECTION, AND THIS, OF COURSE, TOOK A WHILE, BECAUSE ALL KINDS OF EFFORTS IN SOME STATES TO BLOCK RESULTS IN THOSE STATES REALLY LED TO, YOU KNOW, REALLY COINCIDING WITH TRUMP THEN REALLY PUSHING ALONG WITH ALLIES WHAT BECAME KNOWN AS "THE BIG LIE."

THE LIE THE ELECTION WAS STOLE WHN IT WAS ULTIMATELY DECIDED FOR JOE BIDEN BY THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE, THAT THIS, IN FACT, WAS A FRAUDULENT ELECTION AND FRONTS IN MICHIGAN, ARIZONA AND OTHER STATES WHERE PERPETRATORS OF THE BIG LIE WERE FIGHTING THIS WAR BASED ENTIRELY ON FICTION.

SO THAT'S AT SET THE STAGE FOR JANUARY 6th WHEN YOU HAD PROCEDURAL VOTE IN CONGRESS TO CERTIFY THESE ELECTION RESULTS AS PRESENTED BY THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE.

THE DAY TRUMP AND HIS SUPPORTERS STAGED A BIG RALLY ON THE NATIONAL MALL WHERE THEY ENCOURAGED PEOPLE TO SHOW UP AND PROTEST THE RESULTS.

TRUMP SPOKE AT THAT RALLY, AND IN THE WAY THAT TRUMP DOES, YOU K KNOW, SPOKE IN CODED LANGUAGE THAT GAVE HIS PLAUSIBLE DENIABILITY SAYING I WASN'T INCITING ANYONE TO DO SAY, JUST SAYING THE RESULTS WERE FRAUDULENT, BUT HE DID URGE PEOPLE TO MARCH ON THE CAPITOL, TO MAKE THEIR VOICES HEARD, AND THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT MOBS OF PEOPLE DID.

THEY WALKED FROM ONE END OF THE MALL TO THE CAPITOL, WALKED FROM THE RALLY TO THE CAPITOL, AND BEGAN TO, YOU KNOW -- CAME UP AGAINST BARRICADES THAT WERE STACKED BY THE CAPITOL POLICE, SIMPLY PUSHINGED DOWN THE BARRICADES BEGAN ATTACKING POLICE AND INVADING THE BUILDING FORCIBLY AND OVERWHELMING WHAT APPEAR TO BE VERY UNPREPARED AND NOT NUMEROUS ENOUGH CAPITOL POLICE.

SO, I MEAN, THE REST IS HISTORY, AND WE CAN TALK ABOUT THAT AWFUL DAY, BUT JUST AS THE STAGE BEING SET BY TRUMP, IT'S JUST INDISPUTABLE THAT TRUMP INCITED THAT MOB AS MUCH AS TRUMP AND HIS ALLIES TRIED TO DENY THAT.

>> ACTUALLY I SAY IT'S INDISPUTABLE, THAT HASN'T BEEN OFFICIALLY, LET'S SAY, DETERMINED BY THE SELECT COMMITTEE.

A LOT OF PEOPLE DO BELIEVE THAT, BUT THAT HAS OFFICIALLY YET TO BE OFFICIALLY DETERMINED, AND KIRK, I WANT TO TURN TO YOU AND ASK, WHAT IS IT THAT YOU THINK THAT THE BIPARTISAN SELECT COMMITTEE NEEDS TO FOCUS ON TO DETERMINE WHAT ALYSSA SAID.

THAT SO MANY AMERICANS BELIEVED, THAT, YES, DONALD TRUMP DID INCITE THIS RIOT?

AS OPPOSED TO, ARE THERE ANY THINGS THAT YOU THINK THEY'RE MISSING?

>> WELL, THE BIG THING THEY WOULD HAVE TO FOCUS ON IS PROOF.

SO THIS TERM THAT HE INCITED THE MOB, SO THERE ARE TWO WAYS THAT ONE CAN INCITE SOME FORM OF ACTION.

DO SO IN TENSIONALLY OR UNINTENTIONALLY AND THERE REQUIRE AS CERTAIN LEVEL OF, CERTAINLY IT'S A LITTLE MORE DIFFICULT TO PROVE THAT SOMEONE DID ANYTHING INTENTIONALLY.

LET ALONE INCITING THIS MOB INTENTIONALLY.

I'M NOT OPINES WHETHER HE DID OR DID NOT.

SIMPLY STATING THAT IF THE COMMITTEE IS GOING IN THE DIRECTION OF PROVING THAT HE DID SO INTENTIONALLY, THEN THAT'S GOING TO REQUIRE A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PROOF, AND COMMUNICATIONS AND SO FORTH.

AND WE'VE SEEN THOSE COMMUNICATIONS, BUT WE'VE SEEN THEM MORE ON THE BACK END.

MORE OF THIS, YOU KNOW, THAT TENDS TO SHOW THAT, OR PROVE, RATHER, PERHAPS HE DID SO UNINTEN UNINTENTIONALLY.

NOT SAYING DID SO INTENTIONALLY, UNINSTENGSLY JUST TALKING ABOUT THE PROOF SET FORTH.

IT'S GOING TO A LOT MORE TO PROVE HE DID SO INTENTIONALLY AND IT'S DIFFICULT.

IT'S DIFFICULT TO DO FOR A SITTING PRESIDENT.

THE OTHER THING IS GETTING EVERYONE ON THE SAME PAGE.

SO IT'S AMAZING HOW YOU CAN HAVE AMERICANS, WHETHER THEY ARE MEMBERS OF THE GOVERNMENT OR NOT, WATCH THE SAME FOOTAGE, THE SAME SPEECHES AND COME TO DIFFERENT CONCLUSIONS.

SO THE BIGGEST TASK HERE IS, WHETHER OR NOT CONGRESS AND THE SENATE WILL BE ON THE SAME PAGE.

WHETHER THEY WILL READ THE EMAILS LISTEN TO THE TESTIMONY, LOOK AT FILM FOOTAGE AND DETERMINE AND SEE THAT THERE IS A COMMON UNDERSTANDING OF THE FACTS.

I'M NOT OVERLY HOPEFUL FOR THAT, BECAUSE FROM WHAT WE'VE SEEN IN POLITICS IN THIS COUNTRY, IT'S BEEN VERY POLARIZED AND FOLKS SEE KIND OF WHAT THEY WANT TO SEE.

RIGHT?

WE ALL TURN TO THE NEWS OUTLET THAT TELLS THE NEWS THE WAY WE W WANT TO HEAR IT AS OPPOSEDS WHERE IS THE ACTUAL TRUTH SOMETIMES.

SO THAT'S A HUGE ISSUE HERE, BUT THE STANDARD OF PROOF, THE BAR IS RATHER HIGH.

WHEN WE TALK ABOUT A SITTING OR A THEN SITTING PRESIDENT, THE BAR IS EXTREMELY HIGH.

THE FRAMERS WANTED THAT BAR HIGH, BECAUSE WE DID NOT WANT TO SEE THE GOVERNMENT CHANGE HANDS OR SOMEONE BE NECESSARILY EASILY HELD CRIMINALLY LIABLE FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

IT WILL BE VERY INTERESTING TO SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT.

IF I HAD A CRYSTAL BALL, I DOUBT THAT DONALD TRUMP WILL FACE A CRIMINAL PENALTY, WHETHER HE'LL FACE SOME TYPE OF CIVIL PENALTIES REMAINS TO BE SEEN.

>> JOSEPH, AT THE END OF YESTERDAY'S SHOW WE SORT OF TOUCHED ON THE FACT THAT THERE'S PRETTY MUCH A SPLIT AMONGST AMERICANS IN TERMS OF WHO THEY ALREADY HAVE DRAWN A CONCLUSION AS TO WHO WAS RESPONSIBLE FOR THE RIOT AND IN A LOT OF CASES WHO PARTICIPATED IN THE RIOTS.

NOT ALL AMERICANS AGREE ON THAT.

SO MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, SHOULD THE SELECT COMMITTEE REACH AT LEAST THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF THE BURDEN OF TRUTH, IN THIS POLITICAL CLIMATE, WOULD IT MATTER?

>> I MEAN, TO BE CLEAR, IF WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW DOES A NATION HEAL AND WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW DOES A NATION MOVE FORWARD TO ENSURE THAT THE ABHORRENT ACTIONS WITNESSED THAT DAY NEVER OCCUR, I WOULD SAY THAT IT'S IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE SELECT COMMITTEE TO ACHIEVE AN OUTCOME THAT WOULD BE PRODUCTIVE IN HELPING US ACHIEVE THAT.

I THINK THE NOTION THAT THIS NATION IS SO DIVIDED, YET SOMEHOW THAT DIVIDE CAN BE SOLVED BY THE POLITICKING ITSELF THAT OCCURS WITHIN THAT COMMITTEE IS JUST NOT ROOTED IN REALITY.

I THINK THE SAD THING FOR ME WITH THIS IS THAT WE ALL, I THINK, IN MANY WAYS, AGREE THAT WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th WAS AN ABOMINATION, YET SOMEHOW THE ABOMINATION WE WITNESSED IS NOT ENOUGH.

AN EFFORT TO SAY AS BAD AS IT WAS, WAIT, WAIT.

THERE'S MORE, AND IT'S MUCH, MUCH WORSE.

I THINK THAT'S WHERE WE START TO FIND OURSELVES IN THIS DISPARATE PLACE, BECAUSE THE HARD TRUTH IS THAT, YES.

THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT MARCHED DOWN TO THE CAPITOL, BUT YOU CANNOT SIMULTANEOUSLY SAY THAT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WILLFULLY AND PURPOSEFULLY INCITED ONE OF THE WORST DISPLAYS WE HAVE SEEN IN AMERICAN HISTORY, WHILE THE PEOPLE THAT WERE ON THE STAGE WITH THEM AND ALSO ORGANIZED SAID RALLY WITH THEM WERE NOW WE KNOW TEXTING HIM SAYING THAT YOU MUST END THIS AFFAIR.

SO BOTH THINGS CANNOT BE TRUE.

I THINK AGAIN THAT DOES NOT SAY YOU CANNOT HOLD THE PRESIDENT ACCOUNTABLE FOR NOT NECESSARILY KNOWING BETTER.

IT DOES NOT MEAN YOU CANNOT SAY THERE SHOULD HAVE BEEN A MORE ROBUST EFFORT TO MAKE SURE THERE WAS MESSAGING EARLIER IN THE PROCESS TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYTHING THAT WAS HUMANLY POSSIBLE WAS DONE TO KIND OF QUELL THE DISRUPTION, BUT I THINK ON SOME BASIC LEVEL, THAT REQUIRES A LEVEL OF NUANCE THAT WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO REACH AS A NATION, BECAUSE NUANCE APPEARS TO BE DEAD, BECAUSE TOO MY COLLEAGUE'S POINT WE WANT TO SEE THE NEWS THROUGH THE WORLD AS WE VIEW IT.

MARRY FROM PEOPLE THAT SHARE OUR SENSE AIBILIT SENSIBILITIES.

MY PERSPECTIVE, DUB WITH THE UNTRUTHS HAVE TO BE DONE WITH ALL UNTRUTHS EVEN LAID AT OUR FEET BY PEOPLE WITH DISAGREE WITH POLITICALLY.

>> ALYSSA, I WANT TO BRING YOU BACK INTO THE CONVERSATION AND GET YOUR TAKE ON, WILL IT MATTER THAT SEEMS TO BE, TO ME, AT LEAST, ONE OF THE BIG QUESTIONS.

THAT THERE'S SUCH A POLITICAL DIVIDE THAT AS BOTH JOSEPH AND KIRK POINTED OUT, SO MANY PEOPLE TURNEDED TO THE NEWS SOURCES THAT AT LEAST GIVE THEM THE BIAS CONFIRMATION THAT THEY'RE PERHAPS LOOKING FOR.

DOES IT MATTER WHAT THIS COMMITTEE COMES TO?

WHAT CONCLUSION IT COMES COULD?

>> YEAH.

NO.

I THINK IT REALLY DOES NOT MATTER, ALAS.

I SAY, ALAS IN TERMS OF SEEKING ACCOUNTABILITY AND ALSO AS SORT OF LAMENTING THAT ANY PROCESS IN OUR GOVERNMENT HAS BROKEN DOWN AND IN SO MANY WAYS LIKE IMPEACHMENT PART III.

YOU SAW THE SARS PATTERN IN THE TRUMP IMPEACHMENT PROCEEDINGS WHERE IT ENDED UP BECOMING A PARTISAN EXERCISE BECAUSE YOU HAD DEMOCRATS REALLY SEEKING SOME KIND OF JUSTICE AROUND THESE QUESTIONS OF TRUMP'S BETRAYALS OF THE NATIONAL TRUST AND THEN YOU HAD REPUBLICANS SAYING WE JUST WANT NO PART OF THIS.

I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE THE SAME THING HAPPENING AGAIN, AND WE'RE ALREADY SEEING IT, WHERE IT REALLY IS DEMOCRATS PURSUING IT AND REPUBLICANS BOTH IN CONGRESS REFUSING TO PARTICIPATE, BUT FOR THE MOST PART, WITH SOME EXCEPTIONS.

BUT THEN ALSO YOU HAVE THESE ALLIES OF TRUMP WHO ARE REFUSING TO COOPERATE, AND IN THE CASE OF STEVE BANNON INDICTED FOR IT.

I JUST THINK YOU JUST HAVE A SETUP FOR JUST YET ANOTHER EPISODE OF JUST TWO REALITIES THAT DO NO INTERCIRCUIT AND THE DEMOCRATS WILL DO WHAT THEY HAVE TO DO AND SHOULD BE DOING WITH THE REPUBLICANS WHO ARE WILLING TO PARTICIPATE WITH THEM.

BUT IT'S JUST -- IT'S JUST, IT'S FRUSTRATING AND FURTHER DIVISION, UNFORTUNATELY.

>> UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE NOT GOING TO SOLVE THE, DOES IT MATTER?

THAT ISSUE TONIGHT.

KIRK, TURN BACK TO YOU'S WHILE THERE ARE SO MANY THINGS PEOPLE WILL CONTINUE TO DEBATE ONE THING IS DEFINITELY INDISPUTABLY TRUE.

THAT IS THAT JANUARY 6th WAS AMONG THE WORST DAYS FOR LAW ENFORCEMENT, I.E., POLICE OFFICERS, SINCE SEPTEMBER 11th.

WE KNOW THAT 150 METROPOLITAN AND CAPITOL POLICE OFFICERS SUFFERED INJURIES FROM BOEKEN BONES TO CONCUSSIONS TO CHEMICAL BURNS SAYING NOTHING OF THE OFFICERS WHO LATER LOST THEIR LIVES THROUGH VARIOUS MEANS AFTER THE INSURRECTION TOOK PLACE.

IN YOUR OPINION, WHAT IS THE BIGGEST LESSON THAT NEEDS TO BE TAKEN FROM THE RESPONSE, HOW THE RESPONSE WAS HANDLED, AND HOW SUSCEPTIBLE THE COUNTRY IS TO SOMETHING ELSE LIKE THIS?

>> WELL, MY ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, AND LET ME TELL YOU AHEAD OF TIME THAT I'M VERY MUCH BIASED FROM SPENDING SIX YEARS IN THE INTELLIGENCE DIVISION HERE IN NEW YORK CITY.

I ALWAYS POINT BACK TO INTELLIGENCE AND THE USE OF THAT INTELLIGENCE.

SO IN THIS PARTICULAR INSTANCE AND WE SAW THIS WITH 9/11.

THAT CAUSED TREMENDOUS REFORMS.

RIGHT?

WE HAD A CERTAIN LEVEL OF INTELLIGENCE, WITH REGARDS TO THE EVENTS OF SEPTEMBER 11th IN 2001, HOWEVER, OUR LOCAL AND FEDERAL AGENCIES WEREN'T COORDINATING AT THE LEVEL THEY NOW COORDINATE.

I THINK WE KIND OF SAW THIS HERE.

THERE WAS CERTAINLY, WE KNOW NOW, THAT VARIOUS LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES GOT WIND OF THE FACT THAT THIS MIGHT BE SOMETHING THAT WAS LARGER THAN THEY EXPECTED.

THEY GOT WIND OF THE FACT THAT FOLKS WOULD BE BRINGING POSSIBLE THINGS THAT COULD BE USED AS WEAPONS, OR BEING ENCOURAGED TO BRING DIFFERENT TYPES OF DEVICES THAT COULD BE USED TO RESTAIN OTHERS.

HOWEVER, SOMEHOW, NUMBER ONE, THIS INFORMATION WASN'T FULLY DISSEMINATED TO ALL THE LAW ENFORCEMENT AGENCIES, AND WE DIDN'T REALLY SEE THE LEVEL OF PREPAREDNESS THAT WE WANTED TO SEE.

SO IF YOU THINK OF WHAT THE WHITE HOUSE AND THE CAPITOL AND SO FORTH LOOKS LIKE TODAY WITH REGARDS TO BARRICADES AND FIXED BARRICADES AND THOSE THAT ARE REMOVABLE, WE DIDN'T SEE THAT AT THE CAPITOL.

SO THE BIGGEST LESSON TO LEARN HERE IS TO ALWAYS DON'T UNDERESTIMATE THE VALUE OF INTELLIGENCE AND ONCE YOU HAVE THAT INTELLIGENCE, PUTTING IT TO WORK AND BEING PREPARED.

NO REASON FOR SO MANY POLICE OFFICERS TO BE INJURED.

ONE THING WE HAVE IN THIS COUNTRY IS AN ABUNDANCE OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS.

WE HAVE THE NATIONAL GUARD.

WE HAVE THE MILITARY.

WE HAVE THE RESOURCES TO KEEP THOSE FOLKS SAFE, AND TO KEEP THE PUBLIC SAFE.

BECAUSE, REMEMBER, THERE WERE, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY DIDN'T ATTEND THAT RALLY, BUT THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO ATTENDED THAT RALLY WHO DID NOT HAVE THE INTENTION OF PARTICIPATING AND WERE PROBABLY INJURED ALSO.

THIS IS NOT THE TYPE OF COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE THIS TYPE OF FREE FOR ALL EVERY DAY.

SO FROM MY TAKEAWAY, IT'S THE USE OF THE GATHERING AND USE OF INTELLIGENCE HAS TO BE FAR MORE ROBUST AND THAT WHAT WAS ON DISPLAY THAT DAY.

>> WELL, ALYSSA, I WANT TO TURN TO YOU AND ASK, SINCE THE INSURRECTION, MORE THAN 700 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CHARGED IN CONNECTION WITH THE ATTACK, AND I WONDER IF YOU COULD GIVE US A SENSE OF, FOR THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN AT LEAST CONVICTED, WHAT KIND OF SENTENCES HAVE THEY RECEIVED, AND IS THIS PERHAPS THE KIND OF PUBLIC DETERRENT THAT NEEDS TO EXIST TO DISCOURAGE PEOPLE FROM TRYING TO DO SOMETHING LIKE THIS AGAIN?

>> SO WITHOUT GETTING INTO SPECIFICS THAT I DON'T HAVE WITHIN REACH, I MEAN, GENERALLY EITHER THE SENTENCES HAVE BEEN FIRM ENOUGH I THINK TO SEND A CLEAR MESSAGE THAT THIS IS NOT BEHAVIOR THAT THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM CONDONES, BUT I ALSO THINK WE ARE DEALING WITH, AGAIN, IT VARIES AMONG THESE HUNDREDS, BUT SO MANY WERE REPRESENTING THEMSELVES IN COURT OR HAD THEORIES ABOUT GOVERNMENT CONSPIRACIES THAT REALLY COLORED THEIR DEFENSE.

FIRST OF ALL, CERTAINLY HELPED THE GOVERNMENT'S CASE AGAINST THEM AND MAY HAVE MADE PROSECUTION EASIER, BUT YOU'RE DEALING WITH A COHORT, AGAIN, SPEAKING VERY GENERALLY, THAT IS NOT NECESSARILY DETERRED BY THE FORCE OF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM COMING DOWN ON THEM.

THAT, IN FACT, FINDS A MARTYRDOM IN THAT STATUS OF HAVING BEEN PROSECUTED AND HAVING BEEN, WHETHER THEY CALL IT THE DEEP STATE OR ANOTHER FRAMEWORK FOR UNDERSTANDING WHAT HAPPENED.

YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE HAD SOME REGRESS, REMORSE AND WOKEN UP FROM THIS SPELL THEY'VE BEEN UNDER AND OTHERS WHO REALLY DOUBLED DOWN, AND WHO REALLY FEEL THAT THEY ARE PART OF A CAUSE.

I THINK THIS IS OF GREAT CONCERN.

WE SHOULD HAVE CONCERN GOING FORWARD, I THINK, AGAIN, JUST LIKE WITH THE DEMOCRATS IN CONGRESS.

THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM IS DOING WHAT IT MUST DO BUT THE QUESTION BECOMES IS IT SUFFICIENT TO DETER ESCALATION OF THESE SEDITIOUS KINDS OF ACTS?

I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE ANSWER QUITE PLAINLY IS, NO.

AND THEN IT BRINGS UP THE QUESTION OF, AND I'M SURE WE WILL GET TO THIS, WHAT IS TO BE DONE ABOUT DETERRING ACTIONS IN THE FUTURE IF THE JUDICIAL SYSTEM ISN'T SUFFICIENT TO DO THAT AND I THINK IT'S SIMPLY NOT.

>> JOSEPH, WE'VE TALKED SO MUCH ESPECIALLY ABOUT THE PERCEPTION OF THE NARRATIVE, AND I'M WONDERING, ESPECIALLY -- SO OFTEN IN INSTANCES THAT HAVE HAPPENED IN THE PAST, WE DIDN'T HAVE THE TECHNOLOGY THAT WE HAVE TODAY.

THIS DIDN'T JUST PLAY OUT ON LIVE TV, ALSO ON SOCIAL MEDIA.

YOU MENTIONED PEOPLE TEXTING AND THINGS OF THAT NATURE.

HOW MUCH DO YOU THINK THAT THAT HAS ALLOWED EVERYONE TO COME TO THEIR OWN CONCLUSION, AND ALMOST CREATE THEIR OWN NARRATIVE ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED?

>> LOOK, I THINK WHAT HAPPENED HAPPENED.

I THINK IT'S VERY DIFFICULT TO DENY WHAT WAS IN FRONT OF US.

THIS GOES BACK TO MY ORIGINAL POINT OF YOU DON'T HAVE TO TRY TO MAKE THIS WORSE THAN WHAT IT WAS, BECAUSE WHAT IT WAS, WAS A COMPLETE AND UTTER ABDICATION OF WHO WE ARE AS A NATION.

IT'S BAD ENOUGH.

WE DON'T HAVE TO EMBELLISH IT.

SO WE CAN HAVE A NUANCED CONVERSATION ABOUT THE FACT THAT THE OVERWHELMING MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE THAT MARCHED FROM THAT RALLY DOWN TO THE CAPITOL DID NOT ACTUALLY ENTER THE CAPITOL, DID NOT EVEN ATTEMPT TO ENTER THE CAPITOL.

THAT DOES NOT MEAN WE CAN'T ALSO HAVE A VOCIFEROUS AND ROBUST CONVERSATION ABOUT THE FACT WHAT HAPPENED ON THE STEPS OF THE CAPITOL, WHAT HAPPENED IN THAT ROTUNDA OR WAS ONE OF THE WORST DISPLAYS WE'VE EVER SEEN.

YES, WE SHOULD BE ALE TO HAVE A NUANCED CONVERSATION, SHOULD BE ABLE TO TALK ABOUT WHAT KIRK TALKED ABOUT SAYING IF WE UNDERSTAND GOING EVEN BACK TO 9/11 SINCE IT'S WAS INVOKED SO MANY TIMES THAT PART OF THAT FAILURE, WE HAD CIA PICKING UP CHATTER NOT COMMUNICATED TO THE FBI PICKING UP CHATTER WHICH WAS NOT COMMUNICATED TO THE LOCAL ENFORCEMENT.

ALSO PICKING UP CHATTER.

SO NOW JUXTAPOSE WHAT HAPPENED ON JANUARY 6th ON THAT FATEFUL DAY AND SAY, LOOK.

YES.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT IT HAS TO BE NOT TWO THINGS SAME TIME.

EITHER A SPONTANEOUS DISGRACEFUL DISPLAY OR IF IT WAS A PLANNED DISGRACEFUL DISPLAY.

SO PLANNED ABLE TO REACH THE CAPITOL, NUMBER ONE, WHO ELSE WAS INVOLVED, WHAT ARE THE IMP MR. CASES THERE AND IF IT WASN'T PLANNED, WHY WERE WE SO ILL-PREPARED?

THOSE ARE SERIOUS QUESTIONS THAT NEED TO BE ASKED AND I THINK ACCORDINGLY THE FACT THAT, DEPENDING WHEN SIDE OF THE ISSUE YOU'RE ON, YOU EITHER WANT ALL THE ANSWERS OR YOU WANT NONE OF THE ANSWERS IS WHY THERE'S SO MUCH DISTRUST IN THIS ENTIRE FIRST PLACE BUT AGAIN TRUST IN OUR JUSTICE DOES NOT EMANATE FROM THE HALLS OF CONGRESS.

IT EMANATING FROM OUR COURTROOMS AND BENCHES.

WHEN YOU SEE 700 PEOPLE, ACROSS PRETTY MUCH ALL STATES ACROSS THIS COUNTRY WHO HAVE BEEN ARRESTED, BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND JUXTAPOSE THAT WITH SO MANY CRIME CANS ACROSS THIS COUNTRY, UNSOLVED MYSTERY, HOMICIDES SPIKING ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

THE OPEN CASES, THE COLD CASES THAT WE SEE EVERY SINGLE DAY.

I THINK WE SHOULD BE HEARTENED BY THE FACT WE DO HAVE A JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT IN MANY WAYS IS WORKING.

IS IT PERFECT?

NO.

BUT I THINK IT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY TO FIGURE OUT WHERE DO THE IMPERFECTIONS LIE AND THEN IN MANY WAYS OUR INABILITY TO CLOSE THE LOOP ON THIS IS BECAUSE OF THE BUSINESS THAT'S SO INTENSE WE'RE UNABLE TO HAVE THE NUANCED CONVERSATION REQUIRED FOR AN ISSUE THAT TRULY DOES HAVE WIDE-RANGING IMPACTS AND WIDE-RANGING APPLICATIONS FOR HOW WE SELF-GOVERN AS A PEOPLE.

>> ALYSSA, JUST YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE FACT THAT IMMEDIATELY AFTER THE ATTACK, AFTER THE RIOTERS WHO DID BREACH THE CAPITOL, AS JOSEPH DEFINITELY CLARIFIED, FOR THOSE ONCE THEY WERE CLEARED OUT AND THE ELECTION CERTIFICATION CONTINUED, WE DID INITIALLY SEE TWO THINGS.

ONE, THERE WERE SOME REPUBLICANS WHO SEEMED TO BREAK FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND SAY THAT YOU KNOW, WHAT HAPPENED WAS, THAT HE WAS PARTIALLY RESPONSIBLE FOR WHAT TOOK PLACE THAT DAY, AND THAT IT WAS DISGUSTING, AND THEN THERE WERE STILL SOME REPUBLICANS WHO WE SAW WHO STILL SAID THAT THEY WANTED TO CHALLENGE THE CERTIFICATION OF THE VOTE.

WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE THE PARTY IS, AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, THE VOTERS WHO THEY'RE REPRESENTING?

>> RIGHT.

I THINK WE ALSO HAVE TO ASK A RELATED QUESTION OF WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO THEM SINCE OR WHAT WILL BE HAPPENING TO THEM AS WE ARE NOW IN A CONGRESSIONAL ELECTION YEAR AGAIN.

AND I THINK THAT YOU SAW FOR SOME MEMBERS, SOUL SEARCHING, AND A REAL KIND OF MORAL TEST FOR THEMSELVES ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE THERE IN CONGRESS TO DO, AND UNDERSTOOD WHAT THEIR JOB IS.

AND IN SO MANY CASES AN ABSOLUTE TERROR AND UNDERSTANDING IF THEY DID NOT BASICALLY GIVE IN COMPLETELY TO THE BIG LIE, THAT THEIR FUTURE WOULD BE ISN'T JEOPARDY.

A LOT OF, SEEN SO MUCH DOWNPLAYING OF THE ACTUAL SEVERITY OF WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

YOU KNOW, I MEAN, IT'S EASY TO NOT BUT CERTAINLY THE CHARACTERIZATIONS THAT, OH, THESE WERE TOURISTS AND YOU DIDN'T HAVE THE SORT OF LEVEL OF VIOLENCE THAT WAS SO CLEARLY DOCUMENTED ON VIDEO AND SEEN BY THE NATION.

YOU KNOW, YOU JUST HAD SUCH A CRITICAL MASS OF THE REPUBLICAN CONGRESSIONAL DELEGATION JUST TRYING TO, SINCE THEN, REALLY PUT THIS EPISODE BEHIND THEM AND SPEAKS VERY WELL WHY IN THIS MOMENT YOU'RE SEEING THIS LACK OF COOPERATION WITH THE INVESTIGATIVE COMMITTEE.

SO WE WILL SEE HOW THIS PLAYS OUT IN PRIMARIES IN THIS ELECTION YEAR.

I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE A CRITICAL TEST NOT JUST FOR THE FUTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BUT FOR THE FUTURE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PROCESS AND OUR TWO-PARTY SYSTEM.

DO WE HAVE A PARTY THAT HAS ATTACHMENT TO REALITY OR DOES THE BIG LIE AND THE CAPITULATION TO IT COMPLETELY DEFINE THE REPUBLICANS GOING FORWARD?

WILL PEOPLE WHO REALLY TOOK SOME OWNERSHIP HERE, WILL THEY BE THROWN OUT OF OFFICE OR WILL THOSE WHO REALLY ARE HARD-LINERS WITH TRUMP FACE ANY KIND OF PUNISHMENT FROM VOTERS?

>> I -- SORRY.

JOSEPH.

QUICKLY.

WE'RE ABOUT TO RUN OUT OF TIME.

>> YEAH.

QUICKLY.

LOOK, I THINK WE CAN CLEARLY SAY THAT FAITH IN OUR ELECTIONS IS ON DECLINE.

FAITH IN OUR ELECTION DECLINED DID NOT START WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT HIS HAND ON A BIBLE.

WE SAW THIS GOING BACK TO 2016 AND THE AFTERMATH OF THAT ELECTION.

WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT WE'VE SEEN IN THIS ELECTION, JUST NEVER HAVE SEEN IT AS VOCIFEROUSLY AND NEVER I RUPT AS IT DID ON JANUARY 6th.

WE CARE ABOUT JANUARY 6th BECAUSE OF WHETHER THE INCIDENT OCCURRED AND BECAUSE OF THE PROCEEDINGS THAT WERE ACTUALLY UNDER WAY.

SO I THINK THOSE ARE THE FACTORS THAT MAYBE JANUARY 6th THIS LARGER THAN LIFE THING THAT WE MUST DEAL WITH ACUTELY, AND SUCCINCTLY AND WE HAVE TO BE HONEST ABOUT THE FACT THAT THIS LACK OF FAITH IN OUR ELECTION PROCESS AND AMERICANS WRIT LARGE REPUBLICAN, DEMOCRATS, INDEPENDENTS, NOT FULLY TRUSTING THE PROCESS.

THAT WAS NOT SOMETHING THAT STARTED HERE.

WHICH IS IMPORTANT IF OUR GOAL IS TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO RESTORE THAT.

>> OKAY.

UNFORTUNATELY WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

I WANT TO THANK MY ROUNDTABLE OF GUESTS.

KIRK BURKHALTER, JOSEPH PINION AND OF COURSE ALYSSA KATZ.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR JOINING US ON THIS SPECIAL FRONT PAGE FORECAST EXPLORING HATE.

THANK YOU ALL FOR JOINING ME.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANKS.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION, HADDY ASKWITH KENNER.