♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

"METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M JACK FORD.

TODAY MARKS WHAT SHOULD BE THE OFFICIAL END TO WHAT HAS BEEN ONE OF THE MOST CONTROVERSIAL AND CONFUSING POST-PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION PERIODS IN OUR NATION'S HISTORY.

THAT'S BECAUSE TODAY CONGRESS IS SCHEDULED TO MEET IN A RARE JOINT SESSION TO ENGAGE IN WHAT HAS BEEN DESCRIBED AS A FINAL TABULATION OF THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE COUNT.

NOW, IN THE PAST THIS EVENT HAS BEEN FOR THE MOST PART MERELY CEREMONIAL.

BUT IT APPEARS THAT TODAY IT WILL BE ANYTHING BUT THAT.

SO IT LEAVES US WITH QUESTIONS SWIRLING ABOUT THIS DAY TODAY, AND INDEED SWIRLING ABOUT THIS ELECTION.

WHAT IS THE PURPOSE OF THIS GATHERING IN CONGRESS TODAY ACCORDING TO LAW?

HOW IS IT SUPPOSED TO TAKE PLACE?

WHAT ARE THE CONSEQUENCES SUPPOSED TO BE?

AND THEN BIGGER PICTURE QUESTION, WHAT WILL THE CONSEQUENCES BE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THE INCOMING BIDEN ADMINISTRATION?

ALL COMPELLING QUESTIONS.

AND WE'RE DELIGHTED TO HAVE WITH US TODAY SOMEBODY WHO CAN HELP US TO UNDERSTAND ALL OF THIS.

PROFESSOR DOUGLAS BRINKLEY IS ONE OF THE PREEMINENT PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIANS IN OUR NATION.

HE IS AN ACCLAIMED AUTHOR, INDEED OF HIS MANY BOOKS SIX OF THEM HAVE BEEN NAMED "NEW YORK TIMES" NOTABLE BOOKS OF THE YEAR, SEVEN OF THEM HAVE BEEN "NEW YORK TIMES" BEST-SELLERS.

ALL FASCINATING HISTORICAL READS.

HE'S ALSO A RENOWNED TEACHER, CURRENTLY THE CATHERINE SANOFF BROWN CHAIR OF HUMANITIES AND PROFESSOR OF HISTORY AT RICE UNIVERSITY.

AND WE ARE DELIGHTED TO HAVE PROFESSOR BRINKLEY JOIN US.

IT'S ALWAYS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

>> BACK AT YOU.

>> WE'VE GOT A LOT TO TALK ABOUT HERE.

LET'S START WITH AS I MENTIONED BEFORE, ONE OF THE QUESTIONS ON A LOT OF PEOPLE'S MINDS, WHAT IS THIS PROCEDURE THAT'S TAKING PLACE TODAY?

SO LEGALLY WHAT'S THE PURPOSE?

AND I SHOULD NOTE THAT YOU AND I ARE HAVING THIS CONVERSATION A COUPLE OF HOURS BEFORE IT'S SCHEDULED TO START.

INDEED, BY THE TIME THIS AIRS TONIGHT IT MIGHT STILL BE CONTINUING.

SO LET'S START WITH THE IDEA OF WHAT'S LEGALLY THE PURPOSE OF WHAT'S TAKING PLACE IN CONGRESS TODAY?

>> IT'S TYPICALLY VERY CEREMONIAL.

IT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR EACH ELECTOR TO CAST THEIR VOTE IN MODERN TIMES NOW UNDER CAMERA, AND IT'S JUST THE BEGINNING OF THE CORONATION OF A PRESIDENT, WHICH LEADS TO THE INAUGURATION.

IT'S DIFFERENT THIS TIME.

IT'S DIFFERENT BECAUSE YOU HAVE A DONALD TRUMP WHO'S REFUSED TO ACCEPT THE ELECTORAL COUNT.

HE'S INSISTING THAT THERE WAS FRAUD, RIGGED ELECTIONS, BALLOTS BEING STUFFED, BALLOTS BEING SHREDDED, CEMETERY VOTES, YOU NAME IT, HE'S MADE THE ACCUSATION.

AND LUCKILY FOR OUR COUNTRY WE HAVE A COURT SYSTEM AND EVERY TIME THE TRUMP TEAM HAS BROUGHT ONE OF THESE ACCUSATIONS TO THE FOREFRONT, IN PENNSYLVANIA, IN WISCONSIN, IN ARIZONA, IN GEORGIA, AND ELSEWHERE, THE COURTS HAVE SAID THIS IS NONSENSE, THERE'S NO THERE THERE, YOU'RE SPOUTING OFF WORDS BUT THERE'S NO PROOF OF WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

THIS HAS FLUMMOXED PRESIDENT TRUMP, AND SO HE'S HOPING TO MAKE SOMETHING OF A PROTEST OUT OF THE COUNTING OF THE ELECTORAL COUNT.

AND HIS PROBLEM IS MIKE PENCE, HE'S TRIED TO ARM-TWIST THE VICE PRESIDENT TO KIND OF STAND UP AND DO HIS BIDDING AND PENCE SAYS THERE'S NO ROLE, IT'S REALLY CEREMONIAL.

BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A COUPLE OF -- YOU KNOW, THERE ARE A COUPLE OF UPSTARTS.

THE JOSH HAWLEY OF MISSOURI AND TED CRUZ OF TEXAS ARE REALLY DOING ALL THIS WITH AN EYE ON FUTURE POLITICS.

THEY SEE THAT THEY MAY WANT TO RUN FOR PRESIDENT IN 2024 AND THEY NEED THE BLESSING OF DONALD TRUMP.

TRUMP WANTS TO GO ALONG WITH THIS CRAZY STUNT.

THEY'RE WILLING TO DO IT BECAUSE WE ALL HAVE SHORT MEMORIES AND THAT WE MIGHT FORGET WHAT THIS ALL IS IN ANOTHER MONTH LET ALONE YEARS BUT THE TRUMP BASE WILL REMEMBER WHEN THE DEAL WENT DOWN CRUZ AND HAWLEY AND OTHERS WERE AT THEIR SIDE.

>> WHEN WE THINK OF CONGRESSIONAL SESSIONS AND THOSE ESPECIALLY THAT ARE CONTROLLED BY STATUTE, AS THIS IS, YOU WOULD THINK OKAY, THERE'S GOING TO BE SOME SORT OF RIGID STRUCTURE TO IT AND THERE ARE PROCEDURES AND PROTOCOLS THAT TAKE PLACE.

AND AS YOU KNOW, IF YOU LOOK AT THIS STATUTE, AND WE'VE TALKED ABOUT THIS ON OUR AIR BEFORE, IT TALKS ABOUT AS YOU SAID, IT'S KIND OF A CEREMONIAL COUNTING.

NOW, THERE ARE SOME PROVISIONS FOR CONGRESS, AS YOU KNOW, TO GET INVOLVED IF THERE'S A DISPUTE.

WHEN IF YOU LOOK AT THE STATUTE IT SAYS FOR INSTANCE IF YOU GET TWO COMPETING SLATES OF ELECTORS FROM ONE STATE THAT WILL GET RESOLVED SOMEHOW AND CONGRESS HAS THE POWER TO DO THAT.

BUT THE STATUTE CLEARLY SAYS IF YOU ONLY HAVE ONE SLATE OF ELECTORS FROM EACH STATE AND IT'S BEEN CERTIFIED THROUGH THAT STATE'S PROCESS AND SIGNED OFF ON BY THAT STATE'S GOVERNOR THE LANGUAGE OF THE STATUTE SAYS IT SHALL BE ACCEPTED.

NOT IT COULD BE ACCEPTED, MIGHT BE ACCEPTED, MAY BE ACCEPTED.

SHALL BE ACCEPTED.

THERE APPEARS TO BE NO LEEWAY IN THAT.

AND YET WE HAVE SOME SENATORS SAYING, WELL, WE'RE GOING TO OBJECT -- YOU MENTIONED SENATOR HAWLEY.

HE'S BEEN QUOTED AS SAYING BECAUSE I HAVE CONSTITUENTS WHO ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THIS.

DOES THAT PROVIDE A LEGITIMATE BASIS ACCORDING TO THE STATUTE AND PRACTICE TO STAND UP AND PROVIDE OBJECTIONS TO THE COUNTING HERE?

>> NO.

HAWLEY'S ABUSING POWER.

I ORGANIZED A GROUP OF SCHOLARS, CONSTITUTIONAL SCHOLARS TO SIGN A LETTER, 22 OF US, SHAH SEAN WILLENTS OF PRINCETON UNIVERSITY AND MYSELF OF RICE UNIVERSITY, WE WENT TO EXPERTS IN THE CONSTITUTION, AND IN FACT MICHAEL NICALL, THE HEAD OF STANFORD CONSTITUTIONAL LAW, WAS THE MENTOR TO JOSH HAWLEY.

HE -- HAWLEY CLERKED FOR McCONNELL, AND McCONNELL MAKES IT VERY CLEAR THAT THIS IS WRONGHEADED AND DESTRUCTIVE OF WHAT HIS FORMER PUPIL IS DOING.

SO IT'S SAD.

YOU'RE LOOKING AT A COUPLE OF HOT DOG GRANDSTANDING POLITICIANS DOING DONALD TRUMP'S BIDDING AND PRETENDING THAT TRUMP DIDN'T LOSE.

TRUMP CAN'T ADMIT HE LOST BECAUSE OF SOME KIND OF PSYCHOLOGICAL MAKEUP IN HIM.

THE GOOD NEWS IS IT'S A LOT OF NOISE, IT'S A LOT OF ODDITIES, FREAK SHOW GOING ON.

BUT COME JANUARY 20th YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE THE RIGHT PEOPLE AND THOSE ARE THE PEOPLE THAT WON THEIR ELECTION.

YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE JOE BIDEN AND KAMALA HARRIS, OUR NEW PRESIDENT AND VICE PRESIDENT.

AND I THINK AT LEAST AT THAT POINT THINGS WILL TAKE A MORE BALANCED -- YOU KNOW, WE CAN TAKE A BREATH OF FRESH AIR THAT THIS ATTEMPT TO HIJACK AMERICAN DEMOCRACY IS OVER.

>> I INDICATED IN MY INTRODUCTION THAT THIS SHOULD BE AT LEAST OFFICIALLY THE END OF WHAT I THINK WE CAN FAIRLY CHARACTERIZE AS ONE OF THE MOST CONTENTIOUS, CONTROVERSIAL, CONFUSING EVEN PERIODS POST-PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION IN OUR HISTORY.

HAVE WE HAD OTHER SUCH PERIODS IN OUR HISTORY?

LOOKING BACK AT OTHER PRESIDENTIAL ELECTIONS, HAVE WE SEEN SITUATIONS SUCH AS THIS WHERE THINGS WERE STILL PERCOLATING AND ROILING AND BOILING EVEN MONTHS AFTER ELECTION DAY?

>> WE HAVE THIS PROBLEM IN AMERICA WHERE SOMETIMES THE PERSON WHO WINS THE POPULAR VOTE DOESN'T WIN THE ELECTORAL COLLEGE AND THINGS CAN GET CONFUSING IF IT'S TIGHT.

WE HAD DIFFICULT IDEAS IN 1876 BETWEEN RUTHERFORD B. HAYES AND SAMUEL TILDEN.

IN MORE MODERN TIMES OF COURSE 2000 WITH GEORGE W. BUSH AND AL GORE HAVING TO GO TO THE SUPREME COURT TO DECIDE WHAT HAD OCCURRED IN FLORIDA.

AND THAT CASE BECAUSE OF CLEAR DANGLING CHADS, PUNCH CARDS THAT DIDN'T PUNCH, WHAT WAS A REAL VOTE AND WHAT WAS NOT, THE STATE OF FLORIDA IN THAT YEAR RAN AN ABYSMAL, YOU KNOW, ELECTION BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T GET THINGS RIGHT.

AND THEN IT GOES TO THE SUPREME COURT, IT'S 5-4.

SO YOU CAN UNDERSTAND WHY GORE'S SUPPORTERS WOULD BE UPSET.

WE WON THE POPULAR VOTE.

THIS THING WENT TO THE COURT BUT IN THE COURT IT SEEMED TO BE TILTED IN FAVOR OF REPUBLICANS.

AND THEN OF COURSE IN 2016 HILLARY CLINTON WINNING 3,000 -- 3 MILLION MORE VOTES THAN DONALD TRUMP DID.

SO LOOK, ELECTIONS CAN BE MESSY.

IN 1860 ABRAHAM LINCOLN WASN'T ON THE BALLOT IN SEVEN STATES.

NOT ON THE BALLOT.

AND YET HE WAS PRESIDENT AND YET SOUTHERN STATES REFUSED TO ACCEPT IT AS REAL.

SO WE COULD GO THROUGH A HISTORY OF KIND OF MOMENTS OF DANGER AROUND AN ELECTION, TIMES WHEN OUR DEMOCRACY WAS PERILOUSLY CLOSE FROM COLLAPSING AND IN THE CASE OF 1860 WE DID SPLIT IN TWO.

WHAT'S ODD ABOUT WHAT DONALD TRUMP IS DOING IS HE GOT BEAT BADLY BY JOE BIDEN.

YOU KNOW, JOHN KENNEDY BARELY WON THE ELECTION IN 1860.

BUT NIXON WAS GRACIOUS ABOUT IT.

JIMMY CARTER BARELY BEAT GERALD FORD IN 17 -- 1976.

BUT IT WAS A GRACIOUS TRANSITION.

YOU HAD -- YOU COULD PICK ANOTHER.

I MEAN, GEORGE W. BUSH AND JOHN KERRY.

KERRY WAS JUST OHIO AND ANOTHER STATE AWAY FROM BEING PRESIDENT.

BUT NOBODY WOULD RUIN OUR DEMOCRATIC PROCESS BY HOLDING A TANTRUM IN POWER AND CREATE CONSPIRACY THEORIES LIKE TRUMP HAS.

WE'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS.

AND WE CAN THANK OUR LUCKY STARS THAT WE HAD AN INSPIRED GROUP OF LEADERS TO CREATE THE UNITED STATES BECAUSE WE'VE THOUGHT OF MOST PROVISIONS.

WE'VE HAD A LOT OF PRESIDENTS HAVE NEVER COME INTO THIS SYNDROME WHERE A PRESIDENT SAYS I WILL NOT LEAVE EVEN THOUGH I LOST.

THAT'S CALLED A DICTATOR.

THAT'S CALLED A TYRANT.

THAT'S CALLED A MONARCH.

A DESPOT.

WE'VE AVOIDED.

WE'VE HAD POOR PRESIDENTS.

JAMES BUCHANAN AND WARREN HARDING.

WE'VE HAD PRESIDENTS THAT HAVE HAD SCANDAL.

BUT WE'VE NEVER HAD A PRESIDENT THAT IS SAYING I'M REFUSING TO LEAVE AND CONVINCING A LARGE SEGMENT OF THE PUBLIC THAT AN ELECTION WAS FRAUDULENT WHEN IT WA WASN'T.

THE GOOD NEWS IS THE PANDEMIC ELECTION OF 2020 WAS A BEAUTIFULLY RUN AND ORCHESTRATED ELECTION.

THINGS DID NOT GO WRONG.

WE HAD NO OUTSIDE INTERFERENCE LIKE WE DID FROM RUSSIA IN 2016.

AND WE SHOULD BE PROUD OF THE MEN AND WOMEN THAT HAVE BEEN WORKING HARD AND DILIGENTLY TO VOTE COUNT AND MAKE SURE THINGS WENT WELL DURING THIS DIFFICULT YEAR.

SO I GET FRUSTRATED BECAUSE I FEEL DONALD TRUMP IS MOCKING HONEST PEOPLE'S HARD WORK OVER HIS OWN EGO.

>> HAVE YOU BEEN SURPRISED GIVEN ALL OF THIS CONTENTIOUSNESS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT HERE AND THIS HYPERPARTISANSHIP THAT WE'VE SEEN, ARE YOU SURPRISED BY SEEING, FOR INSTANCE, SOME OF THE LEADERSHIP OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY, SENATOR McCONNELL AND OTHERS STEPPING FORWARD AND SAYING NO, NOT TODAY, NOT HERE, NOT IN CONGRESS, THIS IS NOT THE PURPOSE OF WHAT WE'RE DOING?

ESSENTIALLY IT'S TIME TO MOVE FORWARD.

HAS IT SURPRISED YOU?

>> IT HAS SURPRISED ME.

I THOUGHT MITCH McCONNELL WOULD HAVE SAID THAT JOE BIDEN WAS THE PRESIDENT MUCH SOONER THAN HE DID IT.

HE LET THINGS UNSPOOL BECAUSE HE DIDN'T WANT TO ANGER DONALD TRUMP.

AND THE REASON HE DIDN'T WANT TO ANGER TRUMP, HE WAS VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE GEORGIA RUNOFF ELECTIONS FOR THE SENATE.

AND REPUBLICANS NEEDED TO HOLD -- WIN THOSE TWO SENATE RACES OR MITCH McCONNELL WOULDN'T BE MAJORITY LEADER.

AND I THINK MITCH McCONNELL PLAYED HIS STRATEGY BADLY.

HE PROBABLY NEEDED TO HAVE DECLARED BIDEN A VICTOR EARLY AND SAVED THE COUNTRY FROM SOME WEEKS THAT ALLOWED THESE CONSPIRACY THEORIES TO TRACK MORE AND MORE.

BUT IN THE END DONALD TRUMP IS A MEDIA PHENOMENON.

HE WON 70 MILLION VOTES.

HE HAS AN EXTRAORDINARY DIEHARD FOLLOWING.

AND I DON'T KNOW WHAT MITCH COULD HAVE DONE.

I MEAN, TRUMP WAS GOING TO STAY ON THIS CONSPIRATORIAL ELECTION STOLEN FROM ME MANTRA OF HIS.

I DON'T THINK ANYBODY COULD DERAIL HIM FROM THAT.

AND SO I THINK IT JUST TELLS YOU THAT EVEN IF TRUMP WON'T BE IN THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU KNOW, COME JANUARY 20th, HE'S AN EX-PRESIDENT, HE IS A MEDIA POWER PLAYER OF UNBELIEVABLE PROPORTIONS.

AND SO -- AND VERY WELL HE STILL MAY HOLD THE REINS IN WHAT'S LEFT OF THE POWER STRUCTURE OF THE REPUBLICAN PARTY FOR A FEW YEARS.

TRUMP MAY HAVE LOST TO JOE BIDEN, BUT TRUMP IS STILL A VERY POWERFUL POLITICAL FIGURE.

>> AS WE MOVE FORWARD HERE, SOME OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S ALLIES AND PEOPLE WHO ARE WORKING WITH HIM HAVE STRONGLY SUGGESTED HE IS NOT GOING TO SHOW UP AT THE INAUGURATION OF PRESIDENT-ELECT JOE BIDEN.

HOW EXTRAORDINARY WOULD THAT BE, THE ABSENCE OF A PRESIDENT WHO IS STILL ALIVE, WHO IS LEAVING OFFICE, TO NOT ATTEND THE INAUGURATION OF HIS SUCCESSOR?

>> IT'S HAPPENED A FEW TIMES IN AMERICAN HISTORY.

MOST RECENTLY, THOUGH, WAS A LONG TIME AGO.

LAST TIME THAT HAPPENED WAS WHEN ANDREW JOHNSON WOULD NOT GO TO ULYSSES S. GRANT'S INAUGURAL FOR THE TRANSFER OF POWER.

BEFORE THAT YOU HAVE TO GO BACK TO THE ANDREW JACKSON, JOHN QUINCY ADAMS ERA.

SO IN ANYTHING SIMILAR TO MODERN TIMES, MEANING SINCE THE CIVIL WAR, IT'S ONLY BEEN THAT ONE TIME WITH ANDREW JOHNSON.

BECAUSE THE TRANSITION IS THE -- IT'S AN IMAGE.

IT'S A SCENE.

IT'S A TRADITION THAT TELLS US THAT OUR DEMOCRACY WORKS, THAT WE CAN HAVE THESE BARE-FISTED FIGHTS BUT IN THE END THE COUNTRY RALLIES BEHIND THE WINNER.

ALAS, IT LOOKS LIKE TRUMP IS GOING TO FORFEIT THAT OPPORTUNITY TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

IT IS GOING TO BE A PETULANT AND GO PLAY GOLF OR HOLD AN ALTERNATIVE RALLY OR TWEET NEGATIVE THINGS ABOUT BIDEN IN THE MIDDLE OF HIS INAUGURAL ADDRESS.

WE'LL HAVE TO SEE.

BUT I WOULD NOT SUSPECT ANY GOOD BEHAVIOR COMING FROM EX-PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> WHEN YOU AS A HISTORIAN AND THE OTHER HISTORIANS, PRESIDENTIAL HISTORIANS OUT THERE, LOOK BACK ON THIS ELECTION TEN YEARS FROM NOW, 20 YEARS FROM NOW, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE IT?

HOW WAY CHARACTERIZE THIS ELECTION?

>> I THINK IT WILL BE LOOKED AT IN A GLOBAL CONTEXT WITH GREAT BRITAIN GETTING OUT OF THE EUROPEAN UNION, WITH BREXIT, WITH THE RISE OF RIGHT-WING POPULISM IN THE 21st CENTURY.

WE'LL LOOK AT DONALD TRUMP AS BEING -- TELLING US THAT POWER OF MEDIA THAT HE'S BEEN A MEDIA MOGUL FOR A LONG TIME AND IS ABLE TO CONVINCE PEOPLE OF WHATEVER HE WANTS.

HE'S IN AN AGE OF CELEBRITY-HOOD.

RONALD REAGAN WAS AN ACTOR AND WHEN WE ELECTED HIM PRESIDENT SOME PEOPLE QUIBBLED ABOUT THAT.

BUT WITH TRUMP HE'S A MAN WHO'S BEING FAMOUS FOR BEING A FULL-FLEDGED CELEBRITY.

HE'S NOT A BUSINESSPERSON.

HE NEVER ANSWERED TO ANY CEO OR BOARD.

HE'S JUST BEEN HIS OWN LONE RANGER.

AND HE HAS VIRTUALLY NO SENSE OF HISTORY, NO SENSE OF OUR DEMOCRATIC TRADITIONS, THAT WE HAD FINALLY WHAT I WOULD CALL A MOBSTER PRESIDENCY.

THAT WE HAD AN AUTHORITARIAN IN THE WHITE HOUSE THAT WAS A GREAT DISRUPTOR WHO CREATED CHAOS WHEREVER HE WENT AND PREACHED XENOPHOBIA, BIGOTRY, RACISM, AND WAS UNABLE TO UNITE THE COUNTRY BECAUSE HIS POLITICAL STRATEGY WAS BASED ON DIVIDING THE COUNTRY.

THERE WILL BE SOME PEOPLE THAT WILL ARGUE THAT TRUMP WASN'T A BAD PRESIDENT.

THEY'LL POINT TO THE ECONOMY WAS HUMMING BEFORE THE PANDEMIC.

THERE ARE THREE CONSERVATIVE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES AROUND FOR QUITE A SPELL.

THERE ARE SOME FOREIGN POLICY SUCCESSES LIKE PEACE OVERTURES IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND IF WE GET OUT OF THE NEXT FEW WEEKS WITHOUT BEING IN A MAJOR WAR, THAT WOULD BE A GOOD THING, AFTER FOUR YEARS OF DONALD TRUMP.

BUT TRUMP WILL NEVER BE SEEN AS A GREAT AMERICAN PRESIDENT.

HE'S A CULT FIGURE.

AND THAT CULT, WHICH IS SIGNIFICANT, A LARGE CULT, THEY'RE ALWAYS GOING TO LOVE HIM.

HE'LL BE THEIR FAVORITE PRESIDENT.

HE'S GOING TO HAVE 20% OF THE AMERICAN PEOPLE THAT THINK HE WAS THE GREATEST LEADER OF THEIR LIFETIME.

BUT IF YOU'RE ASKING ABOUT ACADEMICS AND SCHOLARS AND PEOPLE WHO CONTEMPLATE THE PRESIDENCY FOR A LIVING, HE'LL BE RANKED VERY LOW.

HE'S EITHER AT THE BOTTOM OF THE BARREL OR THERE AROUND JAMES BUCHANAN AND FRANKLIN PIERCE.

YOU KNOW, HE'LL BE RANKED LOWER THAN WILLIAM HENRY HARRISON, WHO WAS PRESIDENT ONLY ONE MONTH AND THEN DIED OF PNEUMONIA.

IF YOU'RE RANKED BELOW HARRISON, THAT'S GOING TO MEAN THAT YOU DID MORE DAMAGE THAN GOOD DURING YOUR WHITE HOUSE TENURE.

>> LOOKING THROUGH THE LENS OF PAST PRESIDENTIAL TRANSITIONS, HOW WOULD YOU ENVISION WHAT THE EARLY DAYS OF PRESIDENT BIDEN'S ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO LOOK LIKE, GOING TO FEEL LIKE, GOING TO BE ABLE TO FUNCTION, ESPECIALLY IN LIGHT OF THIS CONTROVERSY AND THIS CONTENTIOUSNESS THAT HAS ATTACHED ITSELF TO THIS PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION?

>> WELL, IF BIDEN CAN INHERIT THE SENATE, IF THE GEORGIA VOTING HOLDS UP, THAT IT LOOKS LIKE BOTH OF THE GEORGIA SENATE SPOTS ARE GOING TO DEMOCRATS, THAT MAKES IT 50-50 IN THE SENATE WITH KAMALA HARRIS'S TIEBREAKER, THAT'S AN OPPORTUNITY FOR BIDEN TO TRY SOME BIG THINGS OUT OF THE GATE.

I WOULD THINK HE'D WANT TO TRY TO WORK WITH MITCH McCONNELL ON DOING SOMETHING INFRASTRUCTUREWISE.

THERE IS A PUBLIC APPETITE ON REPAIRING INTERSTATES AND FREEWAYS, HIGHWAYS, FIXING DAMS AND BRIDGES.

I WOULD THINK THERE'S A PUBLIC APPETITE PERHAPS FOR DOING SOME RIVER CONSERVATION, CLEANING OF THE MISSISSIPPI AND THE HUDSON, SACRAMENTO RIVER AND OTHERS.

THERE'S PROBABLY A PUBLIC APPETITE OF SOME KIND FOR A PANDEMIC S.W.A.T.

TEAM MEANING THE NEXT TIME SOMETHING LIKE COVID-19 COMES WE HAVE STOCKPILES OF MEDICINES, SURGICAL GOWNS AND EQUIPMENT THAT WE NEED.

PERHAPS EVEN THE WAR ON CANCER THAT JOE BIDEN HAS TALKED ABOUT AFTER HE LEFT THE VICE PRESIDENCY, THAT PULLING AMERICA TOGETHER ON A BIG MEDICAL MOON SHOT FIGHTING CANCER.

SO I'M NOT -- I'M NOT DISCOUNTING THE FACT THAT BIDEN MIGHT BE ABLE TO DO SOMETHING WITH THE DEMOCRATICALLY CONTROLLED SENATE AS WELL AS CONGRESS.

HOWEVER, I ALSO WOULD NOT BE SHOCKED IF NOTHING GETS DONE THAT THE REPUBLICAN PARTY BECOMES ONE OF RESISTANCE, THAT THE MANTRA OF THE TRUMP -- LET'S CALL IT TRUMP'S 13 U.S.

SENATORS THAT WILL DO ANYTHING TRUMP SAYS AND 100-PLUS OF THE REPRESENTATIVES WILL DO ANYTHING TRUMP SAYS.

THEY'RE GOING TO BE IN OBSTRUCTIONIST MODE BECAUSE AFTER ALL THEY ARE ON THE RECORD SAYING JOE BIDEN'S AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT.

WHY WOULD THEY GO AND DO BUSINESS WITH AN ILLEGAL PRESIDENT?

SO IT'S GOING TO BE DIFFICULT FOR BIDEN TO GOVERN.

BUT THAT'S -- HE'S BEEN IN WASHINGTON A LONG TIME.

HE'S MADE DEALS WITH MITCH McCONNELL BEFORE.

HE'S PICKED SOME GOOD PEOPLE TO BE IN HIS CABINET.

FIRST-RATE PROS.

AND THE NUMBER ONE ITEM IS GOING TO HAVE TO BE A MARSHALL PLAN FOR DISTRIBUTION OF THESE VACCINES.

BECAUSE THIS COVID-19 CRISIS IS GETTING WORSE.

AS WE GO THROUGH JANUARY AND FEBRUARY HERE.

AND WE HAVE TO HAVE A BETTER DISTRIBUTION OF PRODUCT THAT IS GOING ON THUS FAR.

>> WE'VE HAD MANY PEOPLE LOOK AT THIS ELECTION AND BEMOAN THE FACT THAT IN THEIR OPINION IT'S EVIDENCE THAT OUR DEMOCRATIC SYSTEM IS BROKEN.

THAT IT'S JUST FRACTURED BEYOND REPAIR.

BUT I'M WONDERING IF YOU MIGHT LOOK AT THIS, AND LET'S ASSUME THAT AT THE END OF THE DAY TODAY OR MAYBE INTO TOMORROW, CONGRESS HAS DONE WHAT IT SAYS THE STATUTE SAYS THEY SHOULD DO, WHICH IS GOING TO SAY YES, THE NEW PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WILL BE JOE BIDEN.

MIGHT THIS BE VIEWED AS AN AFFIRMATION OF THE PROCESS?

LET ME STEAL A LINE FROM JOHN ADAMS THAT YOU'RE VERY FAMILIAR WITH.

WHICH IS A HIGH REPUBLIC IS DESIGNED TO BE A GOVERNMENT OF LAWS, NOT OF MEN.

MIGHT THB AN AFFIRMATION OF THAT?

>> I THINK SO.

I'M ALMOST POSITIVE THAT'S WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I MEAN, LOOK, WE GOT THROUGH TED CRUZ READING "GREEN EGGS AND HAM."

WE'RE GOING TO BE ABLE TO GET THROUGH TED CRUZ SAYING ARIZONA WAS NOT COUNTED CORRECTLY.

WE'RE GOING TO GET THROUGH IT.

BECAUSE BOTH IN THE END ARE MEDIA STUNTS BY TED CRUZ, WHO'S GROWING A BEARD, HE'S TRYING TO LOOK MORE LIKE STEVE BANNON NOW.

HE WANTS TO BECOME THE INHERITOR OF TRUMP'S POPULIST MOVEMENT.

AND PEOPLE WILL SEE THROUGH THAT KIND OF CHARADE.

FOUR YEARS IS A LONG TIME FROM NOW.

AND THE FACT OF THE MATTER IS THE BIG STORY MAY BE THE REPUBLICAN PARTY IS BEING SPLIT IN TWO RIGHT NOW.

THEY HAVE NO IDEA WHAT DIRECTION TO GO IN.

AND THE DEMOCRATS UNDER BIDEN HAVE SEEMED TO HAVE UNITED QUITE WELL.

THE AMOUNT OF DISSENT WITHIN THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY RANKS IS MINIMAL.

SPEAKER PELOSI IS ON FOR ANOTHER TWO YEARS.

CHUCK SCHUMER IS STILL THE CHOSEN SENATE LEADER.

AND WITH BIDEN AND HARRIS YOU HAVE A FORMIDABLE TEAM ON TOP.

IT'S GOING TO BE THE REPUBLICANS' PROBLEM WHETHER THEY SPLIT IN TWO.

AND IF TRUMP EVER CREATED A THIRD-PARTY MOVEMENT, MILLARD FILLMORE WAS PRESIDENT AND HE LATER WENT AND CREATED A KNOW-NOTHING PARTY.

THEODORE ROOSEVELT WAS PRESIDENT AND THEY LEFT AND CREATED THE PROGRESSIVE, OR BULL MOOSE PARTY.

A THIRD TRUMP PARTY WOULD REALLY DEVASTATE MODERN REPUBLICAN PARTY.

IT WOULD SPLIT IT IN TWO.

SO ANYTHING'S POSSIBLE.

BUT THE REAL STORY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA IS TOO BIG TO FAIL.

WE WILL CONTINUE TO GO ON.

WE'RE LEADING THE WORLD IN RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT.

WE'VE HAD A SETBACK WITH COVID-19, AND OUR SLOW FEDERAL RESPONSE TO LEADERSHIP, IT GOT LEFT UP TO STATES.

WE DIDN'T COORDINATE AND DO THE LOGISTICS WELL.

BUT IN THE END WE'VE COME UP WITH VACCINES THROUGH OPERATION WARP SPEED.

PRESIDENT TRUMP DESERVES SOME CREDIT FOR PUTTING THAT ON A FAST TRACK.

THE CAPITALIST FREE MARKET SYSTEM IS GOING TO BE IN PLAY HERE WHERE COMPANIES ARE COMING UP WITH VACCINES.

AND ALAS, AT THE END OF THIS DARK TUNNEL WE MIGHT BE ABLE TO HAVE ANOTHER AMERICAN TRIUMPH STORY.

I MEAN, THE BIG EVENT -- WHEN YOU REALLY PULL BACK FROM WATERGATE IS THAT THE SYSTEM HELD UP.

AND THAT I BELIEVE THE SAME IS GOING TO BE HAPPENING THIS TIME AROUND BECAUSE THIS HAS ALREADY GONE THROUGH THE COURTS AND THE COURTS HAD TOLD TRUMP HE'S OUT TO LUNCH.

>> AS YOU SAID, WE CAN LOOK BACK TO JOHN ADAMS AND TRUST IN WHAT HE SAID.

A GOVERNMENT OF LAWS, NOT OF NEN.

PROFESSOR DOUGLAS BRINKLEY, IT IS ALWAYS A PLEASURE TO SPEND SOME TIME WITH YOU.

YOU HELPED US UNDERSTAND THIS.

YOU'VE HELPED US IMMENSELY.

SO WE APPRECIATE THAT.

LOOK FORWARD TO GETTING BACK AND TALKING WITH YOU AGAIN SOMETIME VERY SOON.

YOU BE WELL.

>> THANK YOU, MY FRIEND, AND HAPPY NEW YEAR TO YOU.

>> AND TO YOU ALSO.

I'M SAYING TO EVERYBODY HAPPIER NEW YEAR.

IT'S KIND OF A LOWER BAR.

>> WE'LL TAKE IT.

>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER, JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD, CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY, JUDY AND JOSH WESTON, DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

♪ ♪ ♪