>> Tonight, Gretchen Carlson took on sexual harassment at Fox news and won.

No the former anchor his putting her next battle, ending the rules that favor abusers ants -- and sweep misconduct under the rug.

MetroFocus starts right now.

♪ >> This is "MetroFocus," with Rafael Pi Roman, Jack Ford, and Jenna Flanagan.

MetroFocus is made possible by Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III.

Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation.

The Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

The JPB Foundation.

>> Good evening and welcome to MetroFocus.

We last spoke with Gretchen Carlson here on MetroFocus in 2017 the height of the #MeToo movement.

When the former Fox News anchor became a leading voice in the war against sexual harassment in the workplace.

Her lawsuit against the now deceased Fox CEO Roger Ailes inspired other women to tell their stories and paved the way for a nationwide reckoning and movement.

But that lawsuit was only the beginning of her journey and of her advocacy to clean up the American workplace.

Along with her former Fox news colleague she cofounded lift our voices, a nonprofit dedicated to ending workplace rules that favor harassers and abusers.

She was instrumental in the passage of two bipartisan bills passed by Congress and signed by President Biden last year.

One limiting the use of confidentiality agreements also known as NDA's and the other ending the practice of forced arbitration in sexual harassment cases.

She is not stopping there.

She now wants to take on the toxic workplace culture she says impacts workers of all backgrounds.

Back with us tonight as part of our ongoing chasing the dream to visit journalist, advocate and author Gretchen Carlson.

It is so great to have you back on the show.

>> Hard to believe that much time has passed.

Some days it feels like it was yesterday and others it feels like a long time ago but certainly a lot of work has happened since then.

>> I do believe time slippage will be the way we describe this period in history.

Even though I've touched a little bit on some of your story I'm wondering if you can share with the audience what you can share with us about your lawsuit at Fox.

>> On July 6, 2016, I jumped off the cliff and decided to sue my boss, the former CEO and chairman of Fox news Roger Ailes for sexual harassment.

I basically had no idea what was going to happen to me the next moment, the next day, the next week.

There was no safety net underneath me at all.

The decision along thought out vision came to pass because a career I had killed myself for after 30 years in journalism and rising to the top of my profession was taken away from me and it was not my choice.

I decided finally if I don't stand up and tell the truth, who will?

The inspiring people in my life where my parents, my husband and my children who I felt I owed it to because I think a lot of us thought we had solved this in our generation but we had not and we still have not.

I really felt responsibility to try to make it better for them.

>> For people who might be listening closely perhaps for any juicy details or something, you were very careful in your language and I also wanted to know if you could explain to us what role NDA's played in your story and how you solve them as a problematic tool especially for people dealing with sexual harassment in the workplace.

>> NDA's are one of the two evil ways that companies silence you and most people have no idea have signed these parts of their agreements.

I had an NDA when I started at Fox peered one third of all Americans have these kind of NDA's they sign on the first day of employment.

They think they are just signing an NDA to protect trade secrets which I agree with but and DA's have become so much more expensive to include anything that happens to you at work you cannot talk about.

That meant the behavior I was experiencing, I could not warn other people about.

I could not go to any other women and say is the same thing happening to you because that would have violated the NDA.

The kind of NDA I signed upon resolution with Fox is sort of the old school way of resolving these issues.

In 2016, I thought it was part of the process.

It was such a blur to me what was going on.

Everything was so unexpected.

The idea we came to a resolution and they said you sign away your right to ever be able to talk about the details.

I did get two monumental things that were very progressive at that time which was number one I got a public apology from Fox which by the way is all any woman ever once because it is validating.

And I also got the ability to speak about sexual harassment and misconduct in the workplace and I have taken full advantage of that.

What I did not get was the ability to tell what really happened to me.

The way I look at it now is if I would have known back then that I would have been instrumental in igniting an international movement and I would then champion working to make workplaces safer for ending rid of NDA's, if I would have known six and a half years later we would be talking about not using and DA's anymore, I would have never signed that.

What I had no way of knowing any of that and so that was the status quo at the time.

I truly believe it does not -- it matters in the sense I think it is totally wrong people cannot own their own voices in treats and that is what I am fighting for but I still have done everything I can within those parameters to change the environment for millions of other people.

That is what I think it is the most important thing.

>> For people who might not either realize like you said that they have already signed an NDA or perhaps that has not been part of their career path or job or workplace, what is the silencing mechanism those types of contracts tend to include that keep your mouth shut about certain issues?

>> As I said, one third of all Americans signed these on the first day of work.

They think they are just signing to not take a recipe and go across the street and give it to a competitor.

In essence, they become so expensive over the last three to four decades you cannot talk about your pay.

You cannot talk about harassment if it happens to you.

You cannot talk about anything.

The problem is people usually do not realize they have signed this until something bad does happen to them and then they go to a lawyer and the lawyer says you can't talk about this.

That is when they find out.

I'm trying to do is educate people now to look at their contracts.

Look at your handbook.

Sometimes companies send you an email and just by clicking on the email you agree to the NDA without knowing it.

You have to be very vigilant and careful about what you are signing.

And DA's are just one part of the people.

There is also something called forced arbitration.

Which is the second giveaway that companies silence you.

I also had a forced arbitration clause in my contract.

They put one in my last contract.

Even as in educated woman, I did not understand the ramifications of what that meant either.

When I assembled my legal team and was thinking about bringing a lawsuit it was a dark day when they said to me you have no case because you also have a forced arbitration clause.

I said what are you talking about.

I have all this stuff.

They were like it does not matter.

You're going to the secret chamber called arbitration where no one will ever hear from you ever again.

If you want, we can talk about forced arbitration.

>> I would say unpack that a little more so we are crystal clear.

>> These are kind of wonky issues.

Companies have been able to get away with people not understanding these issues.

For the pandemic when I would speak to thousands of people in person I would ask them raise your hand if you know if you have signed a forced arbitration clause or NDA in your contract.

Nobody raised their hand.

People just do not understand this stuff.

Forced arbitration basically is signing away your seventh amendment right to a jury.

It's nothing bad happens to you at work and you have a forced arbitration clause, you cannot file a public lawsuit.

I'm talking about human rights violations.

Sexual misconduct.

Racism.

LGBTQ+ racism.

Age disability.

All of the protected classes have somehow over time been able to be thrown into the secret chamber of arbitration instead of the court system.

When you go to arbitration, the deck is stacked against you from the first day because the company usually picks the arbitrator.

What is fair about that?

Have a lot of arbitration cases but this is your only shot.

Arbitrators come back for repeat business and companies hire them because they thought in favor of the company.

You are walking into a situation where you are already down.

There are no witnesses -- not the same amount of witnesses in depositions about arbitration.

The killer is there are no appeals and it is secret.

So the predator or the wrongdoer probably gets to stay on the job because nobody knows this is going on.

And 9.9% of the time complain who comes forward who has the courage to you that is forced into arbitration and fired from their job and they never work in their chosen profession ever again.

That is what motivated me.

Thousands of people started reaching out to me telling me the same story about what had happened to them and they had all been forced into secrecy and arbitration.

I was like I have to do something about this.

I felt like Iota to all of these people who never got justice.

That I needed to make sure in the future people would get justice.

That is what forced arbitration is.

Never the intent of arbitration.

It was supposed to be for small business disputes for 300 bucks if you had a dispute with your neighbor so that you would unclog the court systems.

It was never supposed to be adjudicating human rights violations at work.

That is what I am seeking to change.

>> So with that, whirling up your sleeves and getting to work, you did get to work with probably one of the most challenging let's say governmental bodies and that is Congress but you actually got some stuff done.

Deflation got past in-laws got signed.

>> I know.

It is so surreal when I think about it because I have the two presidential photos from the signings from last year in my home office.

Look at them sometimes and I am like I did that?

I was part of that?

We do live in the most hyper political time in our generation arguably.

It also makes it seem like it was we introduced it and we passed it and that was that.

I have to tell you this was a five-year slog.

This was a tremendous them out of time walking the hallways of Congress which is what I started doing.

There were other organizations actively working on these issues before me but it was sort of like the perfect storm because it had all the institutional knowledge I did not have in the beginning and I had the sort of credibility and a well-known star power kind of case.

It was great for us to come together.

I could be this advocate that could bring more attention.

What we tried to do was strategize around how to get more Republicans on board because this tends to be more of a democratic issue.

We knew that we needed 10 Republicans in the Senate to get past the filibuster.

The house at that time was controlled by Democrats but we still wanted to have a big bipartisan showing.

I had a tremendous amount of meetings and my kids got involved with me every time I would get another person to join on.

We had a poster board in my kitchen and we would check off another name and do a happy dance in the kitchen.

First I got one senator.

Then I got three.

Then I got five.

When I got 10 I was like we are going to do this.

And so in February of last year, it passed the house overwhelmingly.

Got 113 Republicans to vote for it should huge bipartisan effort.

Three days later it went to the Senate.

It was unanimous in the Senate.

On March 3 I stood with the president and vice president in the East room in the White House which was such an honor of my life and spoke about these bills and got a chance to introduce the president.

And he signed it and there were so many other survivors there that day and it was such a victory for people who have been shoved into silence.

>> You also mentioned we were talking a moment ago about this affecting lots of different marginalized groups.

Not just women broadly but people of color.

LGBTQ discrimination.

I'm wondering for the walls that were passed, do they just focus on sexual harassment or does it focus on all kinds of workplace harassment?

>> That is such a fantastic question.

The laws that passed, the speak out act for NDA's was signed by the president December 7 last year so we passed two of the biggest label changes in the last 100 years and a span of eight months.

They only deal with sexual misconduct.

Any kind of sexual misconduct including assault.

The strategy was to go in and take a bite out of the apple and try to find bipartisan support just in this narrow bill because I knew from covering politics for as long as I did that we were never going to get both parties to come on board to protect everyone even though Eiffel heartedly believe that we should.

My organization lift our voices, our mission is to protect all protected classes.

Our strategy was let's go in with what my personal story was first as an advocate.

Try to get these laws passed.

We have already done the hard work and I can tell you right now we are working on the next protected class to add to the arbitration bill.

The strategy is working out.

It is not everything we wanted by any stretch of the imagination but it is still a huge victory and a huge step forward and we are already seeing the movement now to get more members of Congress on board for other protected classes.

>> The speak out law -- am I correct?

>> The speak out act has to do with predispute NDA's.

It is a little wonky.

These are the one third of all Americans who signed NDA's on their first day of work.

Zillions of people.

If they face sexual misconduct at work and they signed one of these things, even if they signed it 20 years ago and they have not yet filed a lawsuit, they own their own voice.

They cannot be subject to an NBA.

>> So it is retroactive.

>> It is.

So is the arbitration bill.

It is retroactive if you have not yet done a formal legal proceeding.

For example, with arbitration, if you are already in arbitration and our law passed March 3 last year, you cannot get out of that proceeding.

If you have not yet gone to arbitration and even if the company is forcing you to go into it and it is after March 3 of last year, you have rights.

We do not have to go to arbitration.

I spent a lot of time explaining this long now only to regular citizens and employees but even to lawyers because so many laws passed and it takes a while for people to get up to speed on what the new laws are.

And for companies to abide by them.

The same thing with the speak out act.

December 7, that passed.

If you have not yet filed a legal complaint about sexual misconduct at work, you have your voice.

You own it.

You own your story.

This is the first time the federal government has actually put down a marker on what they think about NDA's.

That is why it was so huge.

Not as fast as what we wanted it to be.

We want to get rid of NDA's for everything.

We want to get rid of NDA's for settlements too which has happened in three states so far where we have been doing our work through lift our voices.

We believe people should be able to own their own voice in every part of their workplace environment and in that way they are the ones who take the power back to decide whether or not they want to talk about the story.

>> When you were talking about the importance of moving on to other protected groups, taking the first step with sexual harassment for women but moving on to other protected groups, how is it that NDA's and forced arbitration can compound the negative impact for marginalized communities like we have mentioned look for racial harassment, for sexual identity, or that type of sexual harassment?

How does that compound the damage that was done to the careers perhaps when someone is dealing with an NDA or forced arbitration for filing a complaint?

>> Great question.

Unfortunately with forced arbitration, the highest percentage of people affected are African-American women.

So the stats are horrendous.

It is almost 60% of all African-American women have forced arbitration clauses in their handbooks or in their work contracts.

The second highest group are minimum-wage workers.

So arguably, the more disenfranchised you are in society, the more disenfranchised you are at work too with silencing mechanisms.

We don't think that is OK.

So that is how it is compounded.

We also hope now we have passed these laws for sexual misconduct, imagine how this plays out at work tiered if you are in a cubicle and you are being sexually harassed and you don't have to go to secrecy anymore but the person sitting next to you may be is African-American it is being racially discriminate against and they want to bring a complaint but they still have to go to the secret chamber of arbitration & an NDA, -- and sign an NDA, we believe that is complete unfair and we believe eventually not only will employees come to realize that and say something about it or companies will realize that the train has left the station as I always tell them and it is best to get on board now and change your policies for everyone so that you are being fair to everyone in owning their own voice at work.

>> Of course.

So given all you have been able to accomplish and 2017 is not feel like it was that long ago and yet in the arc of things that have at least been addressed, it also feels like a long time ago.

Do you feel as though enough attention, long-term attention -- now in the white-hot moment of the #MeToo movement but long-term attention and change has come to the way this country addresses harassment in the workplace?

>> Yeah, it is kind of a surreal experience for me because I am so entrenched in this on a daily basis that it is all I pretty much think about.

I feel we have made amends progress.

If I take a step away and look, I still feel that way because of the legislation we passed and the education we have been doing to make people aware of these issues at work.

Sometimes a read reports in the media that say nobody cares about the #MeToo movement anymore and I say wait a minute.

We are just getting started.

We have so many -- so much more work to do but we have made so much progress.

When you think back to when I filed my case, women were not being believed.

That is crazy to say but they were not being believed.

In the short span of time, I believe that has changed dramatically.

Roger Ailes got a $40 million payout when he was fired.

That is not happening anymore.

When Lisman visit CBS got fired for sexual harassment, they took his 20 million or 40 million and gave it to women's groups.

So a huge shift in change.

Men are being fired for conducting themselves in this way at work.

That alone is amends progress.

Do we still have a lot of work to do?

Tons.

Because I always say that changing culture is actually much more difficult than passing bipartisan legislation twice in the most hyper political time of our generation.

That is saying a lot.

>> I was going to say.

That was definitely saying a lot to die do wonder given what you have just described about how men who are more often than not I am assuming harassers and abusers and either work place, but how you are handling the pushback to that.

A lot of what you are describing would fit under what some people are now pejoratively calling woke culture and dismissing under the headline.

How do you deal with that kind of pushback to something that is so critical the way you are describing it?

>> We heard that now men will not go out to lunch with female colleagues or they will not do an evening event with them and they will not hire as many women as a result.

That is a copout.

That is an old-school way of looking at this.

What about saying we are going to get rid of the bad apples and we are going to actually celebrate the people who have the courage to come forward and say something is not right?

I want to make sure I say it is not like all men are these bad apples.

The majority of men want to save working environments for their colleagues who happen to be women.

This is a moment for us to come together.

Men and women.

To say we are going to fix this and we are actually going to get rid of the bad actors and protect the people that have had something terrible happen to them.

We should not force those people out of the workplace.

That is just so wrong and it is so backwards thinking.

We should be listening to them, doing an independent investigation and if the claims prove to be true, they should continue working and the bad actors, is the one that leaves.

That sounds so simple on its face but that is currently not what is happening in the majority of cases still.

That is why I say changing culture is more difficult.

But I invite men into the equation to help us with this.

We need them.

They still rule the world.

They still are the CEOs of most Fortune 500 companies.

And we need them to hire more people of color, to hire more women, to put them in positions of power because guess what happens when you put those protected classes higher up.

You don't get sexual misconduct and race discrimination.

That is my message to inviting men into the equation to help us solve this once and for all and to change their policies.

>> OK. We only have about 45 seconds left.

What I do want to ask just based on your experience as a journalist, what did you take from your 30 years in the business into your advocacy work?

>> 10 never give up.

-- tough never give up.

You know as a journalist you start in the middle and the end it is all about cold calling and trying to get people to talk to you.

Get a tremendous amount of rejection.

That -- and you build a thick skin as a result of -- >> Yes you do.

>> Journalism is highly competitive.

You have to be a fighter.

Those skills have served me well in my advocacy work because I have to wake up every day with the same fire in my belly to get this stuff done.

I see a lot of analogies between the two careers.

My journalism career has served me very well in the work I am doing now.

>> Gretchen Carlson, I want to thank you again for joining us on MetroFocus and we look forward to hearing what is next from lift our voices.

Thank you for joining us.

>> Thanks for having me.

>> Absolutely.

♪ >> Thanks for tuning in to MetroFocus.

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>> MetroFocus is made possible by Sue and Edgar Wachenheim III.

Filomen M D'Agostino foundation.

The Peter G Peterson and June Ganz Cooney fund.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

The JPB Foundation.

♪