♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS" WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III.

SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

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BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- JANET PRINDLE SEIDLER.

JODY AND JOHN ARNHOLD.

CHERYL AND PHILIP MILSTEIN FAMILY.

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DR. ROBERT C. AND TINA SOHN FOUNDATION.

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>>> GOOD EVENING AND WELL COME THE "METROFOCUS" FRONT PAGE FORECAST.

WE BEGIN OUR WEEKLY LOOK AHEAD AT THE MAJOR HEADLINES AND THE POTENTIAL IMPACT ON THE TRI-STATE WITH THE COURTROOM SENTENCING SO MANY MORE WATCHING CLOSELY.

JUST LAST FRIDAY, A MINNESOTA JUDGE GAVE DEREK CHAUVIN 22 1/2 YEARS FOR MURDERING GEORGE FLOYD.

THE QUESTION NOW, WILL THIS SENTENCE AND CASE LEAD TO LASTING AND SYSTEMIC CHANGE?

WE'LL TRY TO MAKE SENSE OF WHAT HAPPENED IN COURT AND WHERE IN NEW YORK AND THE NATION CAN GO FROM HERE.

AND SPEAKING OF THE CITY, THERE WAS YET ANOTHER SHOOTING IN TIMES SQUARE YESTERDAY.

THE LATEST GUN VIOLENCE COMING AS NEW YORKERS WAIT TO HEAR WHO MIGHT BE THEIR NEXT MAYOR AND WHAT THAT COULD MEAN FOR PUBLIC SAFETY.

WITH ABSENTEE BALLOTS STILL TRICKLING IN, WE'RE A DAY AWAY FROM THE BOARD OF ELECTIONS RELEASING AN UNOFFICIAL REPORT ON THE PRELIMINARY RANKED CHOICE RESULTS.

SO, LET'S GET THE CONVERSATION STARTED.

BACK WITH US TONIGHT, WITH THEIR TAKE ON THE HEADLINES AND WHAT ELSE COULD DRIVE NEWS THIS WEEK ARE J.C. POLANCO, POLITICAL COMMENTATOR AND FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE NEW YORK CITY BOARD OF ELECTIONS.

J.C., GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, SO HAPPY TO BE HERE.

>> WE'RE ALSO JOINED TONIGHT BY KIRK BURKHALTER, A PROFESSOR OF LAW AT NEW YORK LAW SCHOOL, DIRECTOR OF THE 21st CENTURY POLICING PROJECT AND RETIRED NYPD DETECTIVE.

WELCOME, KIRK.

>>F >> MY PLEASURE.

>> AND WE ARE ALSO JOINED TONIGHT BY NA'ILAH AMARU, A DEMOCRATIC POLITICAL STRATEGIST.

WELCOME.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO, FIRST, LET'S START OFF WITH, OF COURSE, THAT BIG SENTENCING THAT CAME DOWN LAST FRIDAY AND OF COURSE THAT WAS FOR DEREK CHAUVIN.

I WANT TO GET EVERYONE'S REACTION TO HOW THEY THOUGHT THAT WAS HANDLED.

NOW, OF COURSE, THE JUDGE COULD HAVE GIVEN MORE TIME, PERHAPS LESS TIME COULD HAVE BEEN GIVEN.

THERE'S ALSO A QUESTION OF HOW MUCH TIME SERVED AND ET CETERA.

SO, WHAT DO WE THINK OF THE 22 YEARS AND KIRK, SEEING AS HOW YOU ARE A RETIRED MEMBER OF THE NYPD, I WANT TO START WITH YOU AND GET YOUR PERSPECTIVE ON HOW THE SENTENCING WAS HANDLED.

>> SURE.

SO, THE JUDGE SOMEWHAT SPLIT THE DIFFERENCE.

THE MAXIMUM THAT CHAUVIN COULD HAVE FACED WAS 40 YEARS AND THE MINIMUM WAS 12 1/2.

THE PROSECUTION ASKED FOR 30 AND BELIEVE IT OR NOT, HIS DEFENSE ATTORNEY ASKED FOR PROBATION.

SO, THAT WAS NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN.

SO, YOU KNOW, THERE'S AN OLD ADAGE, WHEN NO ONE IS HAPPY, THE JUDGE PROBABLY GOT IT RIGHT, AND I THINK THAT'S PROBABLY WHAT OCCURRED IN THIS CASE.

THERE ARE SOME THAT THINK HE SHOULD HAVE RECEIVED THE MAX AND THERE ARE OTHERS THAT THINK THE SENTENCE, MINORITY OF FOLKS, THINK THE SENTENCE SHOULD HAVE BEEN LOWER.

I THINK THE SENTENCE IS APPROPRIATE.

I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN APPROPRIATE FOR HIM TO RECEIVE MORE TIME.

WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER IS THAT POLICE OFFICERS TRADITIONALLY ARE NEVER REALLY SENTENCED FOR MURDER.

SO, THIS CASE IS VERY MUCH AN OUTLIER IN TWO RESPECTS.

THE END RESULT AND, OF COURSE, THE HEINOUSNESS OF THE CRIME, WHICH GENERATED, OF COURSE, PRECIPITATED THE END RESULT HERE.

>> OF COURSE.

J.C.?

>> WELL, I AGREE WITH THE PROFESSOR.

THERE'S NO QUESTION, I THINK THIS WAS ONE OF THOSE SENTENCES THAT IN MY 3OPINION, IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WORSE.

I THOUGHT IT WAS GOING TO BE A LOT LOWER THAN IT WAS.

IT WAS ALMOST A RELIEF.

BUT YOU KNOW, THE IMPACT OF THE SENTENCE AND OF THE CASE AND OF THE ENTIRE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER IS GOING TO BE ONE THAT'S GOING TO LAST FOR A LONG TIME, YOU KNOW, GEORGE FLOYD'S DAUGHTER SAID THAT HER DAD CHANGED THE WORLD.

WE ARE HAVING THE CONVERSATION ABOUT POLICE ABUSE MORE THAN EVER BEFORE IN A LOT OF PLACES THAT WOULDN'T HAVE THAT CONVERSATION BEFORE.

I THINK A LOT OF INDEPENDENT-MINDED VOTERS, A LOT OF CENTRISTS LIKE MYSELF ARE NOW DISCUSSING WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S SOMETHING HERE.

AND A LOT OF US ARE LATE TO THE CONVERSATION, BUT GEORGE FLOYD CHANGED THE WORLD IN THAT WE ARE SPEAKING ABOUT THE FORMS THAT ARE SO NECESSARY IN POLICE DEPARTMENTS AROUND THE COUNTRY AND REALLY AROUND THE WORLD AS WE START LOOKING AT POLICE INTERACTION WITH THE COMMUNITY.

SO, I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE LONG LASTING.

>> OKAY.

AND NA'ILAH, YOUR REACTION?

>> YEAH, SO I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT THAT WE ACKNOWLEDGE THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HOLDING AN INDIVIDUAL OFFICER ACCOUNTABLE AND HOLDING THE SYSTEM ACCOUNTABLE THAT CREATES SUCH AN OFFICER IN THE FIRST PLACE.

AND SO I THINK TO THE POINT RAISED, THIS IS UNUSUAL IN THE SENSE THAT THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL POLICE OFFICER THAT IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND, YOU KNOW, GOT A MORE HARSH SENTENCE THAN I THINK ORIGINALLY ANTICIPATED.

WITH THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S ALSO IMPORTANT TO ACKNOWLEDGE, YOU KNOW, THE UNIQUE NATURE OF THE CHAUVIN CASE THAT MAKES IT DIFFICULT TO SAY WHETHER OR NOT IT'S GOING TO SET ANY REAL PRECEDENT IN TERMS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM OVERALL BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE DEEPER QUESTION IS, CAN WE ACTUALLY REPRODUCE THIS OUTCOME THAT PREVENTS THE CREATION OF DEREK CHAUVINS, WHO ARE WEARING THE BADGE, WHO ARE CURRENTLY GOING THROUGH POLICE TRAINING OR ARE EVEN CONSIDERING A CAREER IN LAW ENFORCEMENT.

AND SO WHILE I THINK THE SENTENCING IS SIGNIFICANT IN THE SENSE THIS IS THE FIRST TIME A POLICE OFFICER IS BEING HELD ACCOUNTABLE AND IS FACING A HARSHER PUNISHMENT, I THINK THAT THE DEEPER QUESTION STILL REMAINS TO BE SEEN IN TERMS OF THIS IMPACT ON THE OVERALL SYSTEM.

>> OF COURSE.

AND NOW KIRK, THAT SEEMS TO BE THE SECONDARY ISSUE TO ALL OF THIS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE VOICED CONCERNS THAT, AS NA'ILAH POINTED OUT, THIS SHOULDN'T BE A ONE-OFF CASE.

THIS -- IT'S THE SYSTEM THAT ALLOWED A COP LIKE HIM TO HAVE AS MANY COMPLAINTS AGAINST HIM ABOUT ESCALATINGLY DANGEROUS BEHAVIOR, TO CONTINUE TO BE ON THE FORCE.

SO, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THERE'S A PUSH-PULL AGAINST, YOU KNOW, DO WE CONTINUE TO TRY TO REFORM POLICE DEPARTMENTS, DO WE DEFUND, REFUND, ET CETERA?

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THE NEXT STEPS TO KEEP US FROM BEING IN THIS POSITION AGAIN AND WOULD IT BE SEVERAL STEPS BEFORE WE GET TO THAT PLACE WHERE WE AREN'T SO CONCERNED ABOUT THE BEHAVIOR OF POLICE OFFICERS AND ARE THEY ABUSING THEIR POWER?

>> I THINK IT WOULD BE SEVERAL STEPS.

AND I THINK YOU FRAMED THE QUESTION QUITE ACCURATELY HERE, IN THAT, WHAT DOES THIS REALLY MEAN AND WHAT WILL IT LOOK LIKE MOVING FORWARD AND HOW DID DEREK CHAUVIN GET TO THIS POINT TO BEGIN WITH?

BECAUSE HE WAS PRETTY MUCH A GUIDED MISSILE.

LET'S NOT FORGET THAT HE, A FEW YEARS PRIOR, HE DID THE SAME ACTION WITH A TEENAGER IN HIS HOME.

HE HAD HIS KNEE ON HIS NECK AND CHOKED HIM TO DEATH, BASICALLY.

SO, QUITE OFTEN WE FIND THAT WHEN YOU HAVE AN OFFICER LIKE THIS IN YOUR DEPARTMENT, SOMEONE KNOWS.

THE WAY IT USUALLY MANIFESTS ITSELF IS, OTHER POLICE OFFICERS WILL SAY, I DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH THAT PERSON, BUT REALLY IS THE EXTRA STEP TAKEN, WHERE, TO FIND OUT WHY FOLKS DON'T WANT TO WORK WITH KIRK, OH, WE FOUND OUT BECAUSE KIRK LIKES TO ASSAULT PEOPLE.

SO, THAT HAS TO BE ADDRESSED FIRST.

WHO ARE WE HIRING?

AND WHAT WENT ON WITH, LIKE I SAID, THIS IS VERY MUCH AN OUTLIER, WHAT WENT ON IN THIS CASE HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH TRAINING, THIS HAS TO DO WITH A PERSON THAT SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ON THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

THAT BEING SAID, MOVING FORWARD WITH THE WAY WE TRAIN AND EDUCATE OUR POLICE OFFICERS IS HUGE.

NOW, KEEP IN MIND, LAW ENFORCEMENT IS A LOCAL ISSUE.

AND IT'S VERY RARELY -- IT'S VERY RARE THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT INTERCEDES.

AND THAT'S HOW WE WILL MOVE THE NEEDLE FORWARD, WITH THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM INTERCEDING AND DEVELOPING STANDARDS, BASELINES FOR ALL POLICE DEPARTMENTS.

THAT'S GOING TO TAKE SOME TIME.

IT'S GOING TO TAKE MONEY AND IT'S GOING TO TAKE CONSISTENT ACTION AND PRESSURE.

>> WELL, IF WE JUST MAKE THIS JUST LOCAL AND OF COURSE, WE ARE A LOCAL SHOW SO WE WOULD BE TALKING ABOUT THE NYPD, J.C., I'M WONDERING, IS THIS SOMETHING EVEN POSSIBLE OF THE NYPD BEGINNING TO, FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION, PURGE SOME OF THE MORE PROBLEMATIC OR COMPLAINT-HEAVY OFFICERS WHO ARE ON THE FORCE?

AND WOULDN'T THAT BE IN DIRECT OPPOSITION OF EVERYTHING THAT THEIR UNION STANDS FOR?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, WE'D HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THAT, THANKS TO THE PROFESSOR AND SO MANY OTHER POLICE OF COLOR, YOU KNOW, THE POLICE DEPARTMENT LOOKS A LOT MORE LIKE NEW YORK CITY THAN IT DID BEFORE.

AND THAT, I THINK, IS A STEP IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

AS MORE OF MY STUDENTS DECIDE TO JOIN THE NYPD, WE ARE STARTING TO SEE MORE AND MORE FOLKS THAT COME FROM OUR COMMUNITY PATROLLING THE STREETS.

I DON'T WANT TO MAKE THE CHAUVIN CASE AND THE GEORGE FLOYD MURDER TO BE INDICATIVE OF THE HARD WORK THAT THE NYPD DOES EVERY DAY AND I THINK THAT WE MAY END UP CASTIGATING A LOT OF GOOD POLICE OFFICERS IN NEW YORK CITY BECAUSE OF THE CHAUVIN DECISION.

I DO HOPE THAT AS WE DIVERSIFY OUR POLICE RANKS, NOT ONLY IN RACIAL AND ETHNIC BACKGROUND, BUT IN GEOGRAPHIC DIVERSITY AS TO WHERE THEY COME FROM, WE WANT THEM TO COME MORE FROM NEW YORK CITY, I THINK YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT'S NOT GOING TO REACT IN THE SAME WAY AND THAT'S GOING TO FOCUS MORE ON DECE-ESCALATING CIRCUMSTANCES MORE THAN BEFORE.

I DON'T WANT TO HAVE THE GEORGE FLOYD CASE BE THE REASON FOR WHICH NOW PEOPLE ARE GOING TO START CASTIGATING THOSE HARD-WORKING MEN AND WOMEN THAT DO DEDICATE THEMSELVES TO LAW ENFORCEMENT.

>> TAKE THIS OUT OF THE LOCAL ARENA AND TO THE FEDERAL ONE, BECAUSE NA'ILAH, AS EVERYONE ON THIS PANEL IS AWARE OF, THE GEORGE FLOYD CASE WAS THE SPARK OR THE INSPIRATION FOR, OF COURSE, THE GEORGE FLOYD POLICING REFORM BILL THAT'S BEING WORKED ON RIGHT NOW AND SO, NA'ILAH, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IS THERE -- I GUESS, WHAT COULD POSSIBLY BE THE HAPPY MEDIUM?

WE'RE STILL WAITING TO HEAR THE MOST BASIC THINGS ABOUT THIS LEGISLATION.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK IT'S INTERESTING, THE POINT THAT J.C. BROUGHT UP IN TERMS OF, AT THE LOCAL LEVEL, TRYINGING TO DIVERSIFY OUR POLICE FORCE.

I THINK IT ALSO, EVEN DIVERSIFYING THE NYPD DOES NOT NECESSARILY REALLY TOUCH INTO THE CULTURE CHANGE THAT'S NECESSARY, RIGHT?

AND SO I THINK THAT'S A BOTH IN PART TOWARDS TRYING TO MAKE A SL SL SOLUTION.

I THINK WHAT THE CHAUVIN COURT CASE BROUGHT UP, I THINK, INTO A MORE PUBLIC NARRATIVE IS, FOCUSING ON THE BAD ASPECTS OF FOCUSING ON, INSTEAD OF BEING ANTI-POLICE, FRAMING THEIR ARGUMENT, AS WE ARE PRO-POLICE, BUT WE JUST WANT TO FOCUS ON THE BAD APPLES IN THE SYSTEM.

I DON'T THINK IF THAT'S NECESSARILY THE MOST BENEFICIAL LONG-TERM STRATEGY OF TRYING TO FIND SOLUTIONS THAT NECESSARILY MAKES EVERYONE HAPPY, BECAUSE IF YOU'RE GOING TO PROSECUTE POLICE OFFICERS BY FOCUSING ON THEM AS BEING THE BAD APPLES THAT ARE IN THE SYSTEM, I THINK IT DOES CREATE OPPORTUNITY FOR THE SYSTEM TO STILL CONTINUE TO EVADE ACCOUNTABILITY, WHICH IS THE OVERALL LARGER SYSTEM THAT WE'RE TRYING TO, I THINK, FIND RELIEF TO THAT TENSION OF, IS THIS A BAD APPLE ARGUMENT OR IS THIS GOING TO BE A LARGER CONVERSATION IN TRYING TO FIND POSITIVE SOLUTIONS THAT CHANGE THE STRUCTURAL -- THAT CHANGE THE STRUCTURE OF THE SYSTEM THAT CREATE THE -- THINGS TO HAPPEN AND BEHAVIOR TO BE ALLOWED IN THE FIRST PLACE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, OF COURSE, WITH ALL LARGER CONVERSATIONS, WE ALWAYS HAVE TO DEAL WITH SUBTLETY AND NUANCE.

AND SO WHILE THERE IS THIS CONVERSATION ON HOW WE MOVE FORWARD WITH POLICING IN AMERICA IN GENERAL, THERE IS ALSO THE CONCERN, DEEP CONCERN AND CONVERSATION ABOUT THE RISE IN VIOLENCE THAT WE'VE BEEN SEEING, ESPECIALLY THIS SUMMER, YOU KNOW, POSTPANDEMIC, THOUGH NOT OFFICIAL AND CERTAINLY NOT REALLY, BUT KIRK, I WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE, BECAUSE I SAID IN THE INTRO, THERE WAS ANOTHER SHOOTING IN TIMES SQUARE.

AND THERE HAS BEEN SOME VERY DISTURBING SHARP RISE IN VIOLENT CRIME SHOOTING DEATHS IN NEW YORK CITY, SOME WHICH HAVE BEEN CAUGHT ON CAMERA, AND FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, ARE THOSE TWO THINGS THAT AT LEAST WE CAN HOLD AND DO AT THE SAME TIME?

CAN WE TALK ABOUT HOW WE REFORM AND BETTER THE NYPD WHILE ALSO DEALING WITH A RISE IN CRIME THAT'S QUITE DISTURBING?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

ABSOLUTELY.

THE TWO ARE NOT MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

AN EFFECTIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS NOT A POLICE DEPARTMENT THAT DOES NOT COMBAT CRIME.

IT'S JUST THE OPPOSITE.

AN EFFECTIVE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS ONE THAT COMBATS CRIME, DELIVERS ALL TYPES OF OTHER SERVICES AND THAT'S A CONVERSATION FOR ANOTHER DAY.

I THINK THE POLICE DEPARTMENT IS SPREAD FAR TOO THIN.

WE ARE ASKING POLICE OFFICERS TO DO EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD WHEN THEY REALLY SHOULDN'T BE.

BUT THAT'S NOT EXCLUSIVE.

AND THEY ARE -- THEY EXIST TO PROTECT THE RIGHTS OF ALL INDIVIDUALS, INCLUDING THOSE WHOM THEY ARREST.

SO, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE SEE THIS SPIKE IN CRIME, THIS IS PERHAPS REFLECTIVE OF OUR POLICE DEPARTMENT HAVEN'T GROWN IN THE SAME MANNER THAT SOCIETY HAS GROWN.

THERE ARE A LOT OF GOOD POLICE OFFICERS OUT THERE THAT CERTAINLY WANT TO DO THEIR JOB, BUT ARE WE GIVING THEM THE TOOLS TO DO SO?

ARE WE DEPLOYING THEM CORRECTLY?

ARE WE ALLOCATING THE RESOURCES WHERE THEY SHOULD BE ALLOCATED?

WE NEED THE POLICE IN SOCIETY, RIGHT?

IT'S KIND OF A NONSTARTER TO SAY, LET'S GET RID OF THE POLICE.

HOWEVER, WHAT DO THE POLICE LOOK LIKE?

AND THERE'S BEEN A LARGE CONVERSATION ABOUT THE FACT THAT, WELL, WE HAVE THIS SPIKE IN CRIME BECAUSE OF ALL THE BAIL REFORM.

WELL, THAT'S ACTUALLY NOT TRUE, BECAUSE IN NEW YORK STATE, THE LIKELIHOOD OF A PERSON'S PROPENSITY TO COMMIT CRIME OR DANGER TO SOCIETY HAS NOT BEEN AT ISSUE.

IT WASN'T AT ISSUE, HASN'T BEEN SINCE THE 1970s OR PRIOR.

SO, THE REFORM DOESN'T FOCUS ON THAT ASPECT.

IT'S NOT THAT THESE FOLKS WOULD NOT BE OUT NOW BECAUSE OF BAIL REFORM, BUT BECAUSE OF BAIL REFORM THEY'RE OUT IN THE STREET -- THAT IS NOT THE ISSUE.

SO, FIRST, LET'S GET ALL THE MISINFORMATION THAT'S OUT THERE, LET'S GET IT STRAIGHT AND LET'S FOCUS ON MORE EFFECTIVE POLICING AND THE DEPLOYMENT OF RESOURCES.

PERHAPS IF POLICE STOP TRACKING DOWN UNTAXED CIGARETTES, CO COUNTERFEIT BILLS AND SO ON, THEY WOULD HAVE TIME TO COMBAT THESE UNLICENSED FIREARMS THAT PROLIFERATE OUR SOCIETY.

BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT JUST NEW YORK.

SO, WHEN THIS HAPPENS IN AN URBAN CITY, YOU KNOW, EVERYONE GOES CRAZY.

HOWEVER, WE'VE SEEN A SPIKE IN SHOOTINGS ALL ACROSS THE CO COUNTRY, MASS SHOOTINGS.

SO, IT'S NOT JUST NEW YORK.

THIS IS A PROBLEM IN THIS COUNTRY.

>> J.C., I FEEL LIKE, BEFORE WE SAY THAT IT IS MISINFORMATION, I FEEL LIKE YOU WOULD HAVE A COUNTERARGUMENT TO THE ISSUE OF WHETHER OR NOT BAIL REFORM HAS PLAYED A ROLE IN THIS INCREASE IN VIOLENCE.

>> THERE'S NO QUESTION, IN MY OPINION, THAT IT HAS.

I THINK THAT WHEN YOU ARREST A GANG BANGER WITH A GUN NEAR A SCHOOL AND THEN YOU RELEASE THAT GANG BANGER OUT INTO THE COMMUNITY IN WHICH THAT PERSON LIVES, DWELLS AND TERRORIZES, WITHIN A COUPLE OF HOURS, I THINK YOU MAKE THAT COMMUNITY LESS SAFE.

TAKE, FOR INSTANCE, THE GANG BANGER THAT DECIDED TO SHOOT AT THE CHILDREN IN THE BRONX JUST LAST WEEK ON SHERIDAN AVENUE.

THIS GUY HAD BEEN ARRESTED FOR AN ARMED ROBBERY IN THE MONTHS BEFORE.

RIGHT BEFORE THAT, HE WAS ARRESTED FOR ATTEMPTED MURDER AND REVENGE PORN.

I MEAN, THE FACT THAT THIS GUY WAS WALKING THE STREET BECAUSE JUDGES DO NOT HAVE THE DISCRETION ANYMORE TO DECIDE WHETHER OR NOT SOMEONE IS GOING TO BE HELD WITH BAIL, I THINK IT'S A MAJOR PROBLEM.

WE ARE -- WE ARE CREATING AN ISSUE WHERE WE'RE PUTTING OUR HEAD IN THE SAND.

THIS IS WHAT'S HAPPENING, JENNA.

WE HAVE TO ADMIT THAT THERE HAS BEEN RACIAL DISCRIMINATION IN OUR CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM FULL STOP, PERIOD.

RIGHT?

WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE ME AND YOU AND OTHERS ON THIS PANEL WHO WERE NOT ALLOWED TO HAVE BAIL BECAUSE OF THE COLOR OF THEIR SKIN.

THAT'S A FACT.

AND THE FACT IS IF YOU'VE BEEN POOR, THAT IS ALSO A REASON WHY YOU WEREN'T ALLOWED TO -- LET'S DEAL WITH THAT.

AT THE SAME TIME, POLITICIANS HAVE TO BALANCE KEEPING OUR COMMUNITY SAFE.

AND TELLING ME THAT YOU'RE GOING TO RELEASE A GANG BANGER WHO HAS DONE WITH THIS GUY DID BACK INTO THE COMMUNITY BECAUSE YOU ARE NOW PUTTING POLICIES TO TAKE CARE OF THE ISSUE OF DISCRIMINATION AND NOT KEEPING IN MIND THE NEED OF KEEPING US SAFE, IS TURNING A BLIND EYE TO CRIME.

AND WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THIS LACKADAISICAL NO BAIL THAT WE'RE SEEING IS THAT YOU'RE CREATING ENVIRONMENTS WHERE PEOPLE ARE TERRORIZING THEIR COMMUNITIES AND THEY'RE COMING RIGHT BACK AND IT DOESN'T STOP THERE.

NOW, THE DEFENDANTS ARE ALLOWED TO GET PERSONAL INFORMATION FROM EVERY WITNESS, RIGHT?

THAT MAY BE PART OF THEIR PROSECUTION, INTIMATE INFORMATION AS TO THE PERSON THEY'VE ACCOSTED, SO, THIS CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM IS REALLY NOT WHAT I THINK A -- THEY'RE WELL INTENTIONED, BUT THE CONSEQUENCES OF THESE THINGS ARE CREATING AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE KIDS ARE GETTING SHOT IN OUR STREETS, GUN VIOLENCE IS REAL, BUT THERE ARE BAD PEOPLE PULLING THOSE TRIGGERS AND WE HAVE TO CTAKE CARE OF THAT.

>> KIRK, QUICKLY, I JUST WANT TO GIVE YOU A CHANCE TO RESPOND.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I AGREE.

THE CHANGE IN THE BAIL LOWS -- THIS PERSON THAT COMMITTED THIS SHOOTING, PRIOR TO THIS REFORM, THEY WOULD HAVE BEEN RELEASED ANYWAY.

>> NO WAY.

>> THE ONLY POINT IS THAT THE REFORM DOES NOT -- HAS NOT ADDRESSED VIOLENT CRIMINALS IN THIS RESPECT, SO, THIS PERSON WOULD HAVE BEEN RELEASED PRIOR TO THE REFORM IF THE SYSTEM WORKS, IF THE JUDGES AND SO FORTH FOLLOW WHAT THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO DO, THIS PERSON IS NOT A NONVIOLENT OFFENDER, SO, CERTAINLY -- NEW YORK STATE HAS ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT WHETHER THE PERSON IS AVAILABLE OR THE LIKELIHOOD OF SHOWING UP TO COURT.

IS THERE A NEED FOR THE TYPE OF REFORM WHERE WE CONSIDER, LIKE NEW JERSEY, WHETHER SOMEONE IS A THREAT TO SOCIETY?

PERHAPS WE SHOULD.

THAT JUST HASN'T -- MY POINT IS, THAT HAS NEVER BEEN THE CASE IN NEW YORK.

>> ALL RIGHT, GENTLEMAN, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE TO PUT A PIN IN THAT, BECAUSE WE DO HAVE TO MOVE ON.

T NA'ILAH, I JUST WANT TO ASK, YOU KNOW, FROM NOT JUST A LEGISLATIVE POINT, BUT I THINK SOMETHING THAT A LOT OF ACTIVISTS ALSO POINT OUT IS THAT THESE ARE -- A LOT OF THIS CRIME IS BECAUSE OF UNDERLYING ISSUES IN UNDERSERVED AND AT-RISK COMMUNITIES, ET CETERA.

SO, FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, THIS RISE IN GUN VIOLENCE, ARE WE TREATING THE, PERHAPS THE MOLE AND NOT THE CANCER, FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION?

>> ESSENTIALLY, YES.

I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ISSUES RIGHT NOW IS BECAUSE BAIL REFORM WAS RELATIVELY NEW AND THEN WE EXPERIENCED A SPIKE, IT WAS THE SCAPEGOAT, IF YOU WILL.

HOWEVER, TO THE POINTS THAT HAVE ALREADY BEEN RAISED, THESE ISSUES, SPIKES IN CRIME, HAVE BEEN HAPPENING BEFORE BAIL REFORM WAS PASSED SO I DON'T NECESSARILY THINK IT IS THE REASON THAT WE ARE NOW EXPERIENCING A SPIKE IN CRIME, BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT TO REACKNOWLEDGE THERE'S A NUANCE TO THIS CONVERSATION THAT OFTENTIMES IS LOST WHEN WE OVERSIMPLIFY ISSUES SUCH AS, YOU KNOW, BAIL REFORM IS THE REASON FOR, YOU KNOW, NEW YORK CITY FALLING APART POST-COVID AND NOT REALLY ACKNOWLEDGING THE LARGER STRUCTURAL ISSUES THAT, AGAIN, CREATE, YOU KNOW, THESE TYPES OF BEHAVIORS AND SYSTEMS SUCH AS POVERTY, EMPLOYMENT, ALL THE THINGS THAT INTERACT WITH EACH OTHER AND NOT AS SIMPLE AS PINPOINTING IT TO A SPECIFIC LEGISLATION THAT WAS PASSED RECENTLY.

>> OKAY, WELL, LISTEN, THIS IS A CONVERSATION THAT IS WORTH CONTINUING AND, OF COURSE, WE AT "METROFOCUS" WILL BE HERE TO CONTINUE IT.

BUT I DO WANT TO MOVE TO THE PERSON WHO WILL MOST LIKELY BE DEALING WITH THIS RISE IN VIOLENT CRIME AND BAIL REFORM AND VARIOUS OTHER ISSUES BETWEEN NEW YORK CITY AND ALBANY AND THAT IS WHOEVER BECOMES THE CITY'S NEXT MAYOR.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT SOON, VERY SOON, ALLEGEDLY, I DON'T KNOW, WE'RE GOING TO FIND OUT WHO IS IN THE LEAD WITH THE RANKED CHOICE VOTING AND SO, J.C., I'LL START WITH YOU, I MEAN, WE KNOW THAT A LOT OF ABSENTEE BALLOTS HAVE COME IN.

I BELIEVE THAT KATHERINE GARCIA HAS INDICATED THAT SHE THINKS SHE'S GOING TO GET A GOOD BOOST FROM A LOT OF THOSE BALLOTS, BUT IT STILL SEEMS AS IF ERIC ADAMS IS NEXT IN LINE.

>> WELL, THERE IS A NOVEMBER ELECTION, RIGHT?

SO, HE MAY HAVE PULLED OFF THE DEMOCRATIC NOMINATION AND I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH A 70,000-VOTE LEAD WITH OVER 150,000 OR SO ABSENTEE BALLS LO BALLOTS, BUT IT LOOKS LIKE IT.

THIS NONSENSICAL, YOU KNOW HOW I FEEL ABOUT IT ALREADY, JENNA, THIS RANKED-CHOICE VOTING CREATED A ENVIRONMENT WHERE THEORETICALLY WHERE HE MAY STILL LUSE.

>> VERY TRUE.

>> IT'S TRUE.

THERE WAS SOME COLLUSION AT THE END BETWEEN GARCIA AND YANG, THEY DECIDED, JUST VOTE WHOEVER, JUST NOT FOR ERIC.

AND WHAT YOU'RE DEALING WITH, I THINK, YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE MORE OF THE NUMBER TWO VOTES GOING TO WILEY AND GARCIA.

SO, I REALLY DO BELIEVE THIS IS GOING TO BE A LOT CLOSER AT THE END THAN PEOPLE THINK AND I CAN SEE WILEY CLOSING IN THE GAP IN THE LATEST -- IN THE LATER WEEKS.

THERE'S NO QUESTION ABOUT IT.

I THINK A LOT OF GARCIA AND YANG VOTES WILL GO TO MAYA.

PEOPLE ARE GOING TO WAKE UP TO THE NONSENSE OF RANKED CHOICE VOTING AND GET RID OF IT, FIRST OPPORTUNITY.

>> FROM YOUR POINT OF VIEW, KIRK, AS A FORMER NYPD DETECTIVE AND AS A PROFESSOR OF LAW, YOUR THOUGHTS ON THE WAY AT LEAST THIS FIRST ROUND OF RANKED CHOICE VOTING HAS GONE IN NEW YORK CITY?

>> WELL, THE FIRST THING I HAVE TO SAY, REMEMBER THE GOOD OLD DAYS, WHERE THE DAY AFTER THE ELECTION, YOU COULD BUY A NEWSPAPER AND THE HEADLINE SHOWED YOU WHO WON?

WHATEVER HAPPENED TO THAT?

THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WHAT'S ON THE MIND OF -- YOU KNOW, LOCAL POLITICS IS SO DIFFERENT FROM NATIONAL POLITICS.

AS A NATIVE NEW YORKER, WHAT ARE NEW YORKERS CONCERNED ABOUT?

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SCHOOLS THEIR CHILDREN GO TO.

THEY'RE CONCERNED ABOUT THE SERVICES THAT ARE DELIVERED.

TRASH BEING PICKED UP ON TIME, SNOW BEING REMOVED.

BEING ABLE TO WALK FROM THE BUS STOP OR THE TRAIN TO THEIR HOME SAFELY ANY TIME OF NIGHT AND BEING ABLE TO AFFORD, YOU KNOW, GOODS AND SERVICES.

SO, THAT'S VERY DIFFERENT THAN THE NATIONAL LEVEL.

AND I THINK QUITE OFTEN, WHEN WE SEE LOCAL POLITICIANS TRY TO ATTACK PROBLEMS VERY, VERY BROADLY AND CAST A WIDE NET, DOESN'T GET DONE, BECAUSE IT'S JUST DIFFICULT TO DO THAT IN NEW YORK CITY.

IT'S MUCH EASIER TO MOVE THE NEEDLE WITH THESE ISSUES THAT FOLKS ARE INVESTED IN.

FROM A LEGAL STANDPOINT, YOU KNOW, JUST GETTING THINGS DONE, POLITICIANS WHO TEND TO HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT OR STATE GOVERNMENT OR NATIONAL GOVERNMENT SEEM TO DO WELL.

THAT'S NOT TO SAY A FRESHMAN POLITICIAN CAN'T DO THE JOB, BUT IT'S JUST GOING TO BE VERY INTERESTING.

I WOULD SUSPECT WE'LL SEE A CHALLENGE WITH REGARDS TO THE RANKED CHOICE VOTING, BECAUSE IT'S NEW AND THERE'S ALWAYS GOING TO BE A CHALLENGE.

I DON'T THINK WE'LL KNOW WHO'S GOING TO BE THE MAYOR UNTIL THE NEXT MAYORAL ELECTION.

>> OH, BOY.

>> NA'ILAH, I'M GOING TO GIVE YOU THE LAST WORD ON OUR ONGOING MAYORAL ELECTION AND ALSO, DOES SOMEBODY, ASIDE FROM THE WINNER OF THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY, REALLY HAVE A SHOT AT BEGINNING NOT ONLY THEIR NOVEMBER CAMPAIGN, BUT THE TRANSITION, BECAUSE THERE'S A LOT AT STAKE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I THINK TO THE SECOND QUESTION, I THINK A REPUBLICAN COULD POTENTIALLY HAVE A CHANCE, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE -- HAVE TO DO A LOT OF ELECTORAL BUILDING IN TERMS OF MORE REGISTRATION, BECAUSE I THINK WITH ERIC ADAMS AT THE TOP, IT SHOWS THAT THERE'S A STRONG APPETITE FOR A MODERATE CENTRIST CANDIDATE AND IT REFLECTS, YOU KNOW, THE LEFT-WING PROGRESSIVE SIDE OF THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY NEEDS TO DO A LOT BETTER JOB AT COALITION BUILDING.

AND I THINK LASTLY, I THINK JUST REGARDING THE RANKED CHOICE VOTING, I THINK IT'S HARD TO REALLY HAVE ANY INSIGHT REGARDING, YOU KNOW, WHO COULD BE NUMBER TWO OR WHO COULD BE NUMBER THREE, BECAUSE RANKED CHOICE VOTING ERASES THIS COMPLICATED ELECTORAL CALCULUS FOR CANDIDATES AND BALLOTS ARE GOING TO BE MIXED WITH BOTH PROGRESSIVE AND MODERATES.

AND LASTLY, I THINK REGARDING POTENTIAL CHALLENGE TO RANKED CHOICE VOTING, SOME EARLY EXIT POLLING FOR GOOD GOVERNMENT GROUPS PROVES THAT ONLY 42% OF NEW YORK VOTERS ACTUALLY USE ALL FIVE SLOTS AND THAT A MAJORITY OF THE VOTERS WERE WHITE VOTERS.

SO THIS PERPETUATES THE SAME SYSTEM OF WHITE VOTERS BEING DISPROPROFEORTIONATELY REPRESEN.

SO, I THINK ULTIMATELY, IN THE END, ERIC ADAMS MAY VERY WELL BE OUR NEXT MAYOR, BUT WITH -- NOT KNOWING WHO PICKED UP NUMBER TWO, AGAIN, BECAUSE PEOPLE PICK CANDIDATES BASED ON IDEOLOGY, POLICY POSITIONS, PERSONALITY, WE HAVE NO REAL WAY OF UNDERSTANDING THE VOTER INTENTIONS AND HOW OFTENTIMES THAT CAN BE LOST IN THESE CONVERSATIONS WHEN IT COMES TO THINKING ABOUT, WHAT ARE THE ISSUES THAT ARE MOST IMPORTANT TO NEW YORKERS?

>> WELL, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

WE'VE RUN OUT OF TIME BUT I'D LIKE TOEN TH THANK MY ENTIRE PA.

THANK YOU ALL SO MUCH FOR SHARING YOUR INSIGHT ON THESE CRITICALLY IMPORTANT ISSUES THAT WE'LL BE FOLLOWING AS THEY DEVELOP AND UNFOLD.

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

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