>>> TONIGHT, ON THE FRONT PAGE FORECAST, FOUL BALL?

BACKLASH OVER THE MAYOR'S DECISION TO GIVE ATHLETES A PASS ON VACCINES.

AND IS BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING BACK?

CRITICS SAY YES.

ALL THAT AND MORE AS "METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.

AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO THE "METROFOCUS" FRONT PAGE FORECAST.

I'M JENNA FLANAGAN.

IN THIS WEEK'S LOOK AHEAD AT THE MAJOR HEADLINES, WITH THE APRIL 1st DEADLINE RAPIDLY APPROACHING, NEW YORK DEMOCRATS HAVE JUST A FEW DAYS TO NEGOTIATE A STATE BUDGET.

WE HAVE THE LATEST ON WHERE THINGS STAND AND THE BIGGEST PROPOSALS.

IN NEW YORK CITY, MAYOR ADAMS IS FACING BACKLASH OVER HIS DECISION TO END THE VACCINE MANDATE FOR ATHLETES AND PERFORMERS.

WHY CITY WORKERS ARE CRYING FOUL.

AND IS BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING BACK?

CRITICS ARE LASHING OUT AT THE MAYOR AND THE NYPD.

SO, FOR MUCH MORE ON THESE STORIES AND THEIR TAKE ON WHAT ELSE MIGHT DRIVE THE NEWS THIS WEEK, WE WELCOME TONIGHT'S PANEL OF EXPERTS.

UP FIRST, WE HAVE KIMBERLY PEELER-ALLEN.

KIMBERLY IS A VISITING PRACTITIONER AT THE CENTER FOR AMERICAN WOMEN IN POLITICS AT RUTGERS UNIVERSITY.

THAT IS QUITE THE TITLE, KIMBERLY, WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

>> PLEASE SURE TO BE HERE.

>> WE ARE ALSO JOINED AGAIN BY RAFAEL MANGUAL.

HE IS A SENIOR FELLOW AND HEAD OF RESEARCH FOR THE POLICING AND PUBLIC SAFETY INITIATIVE AT THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTE.

RAFAEL, GATE TO HAVE YOU BACK ON THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE BACK, THANK YOU.

>> AND ROUNDING OUT OUR ROUNDTABLE IS RETURNING AGAIN, ALYSSA KATZ, ALYSSA IS, OF COURSE, DEPUTY EDITOR AT THE INVESTIGATIVE NEWS OUTLET "THE CITY."

GREAT TO HAVE YOU ON.

>> GREAT TO BE BACK.

>> SO, ALYSSA, I WANT TO START WITH YOU AND, OF COURSE, THE STATE BUDGET.

AND WHAT YOU KNOW FROM YOUR REPORTING, WHERE WE STAND AND WHAT ARE SOME OF THE BIGGEST THINGS THAT NEED HAMMERED OUT?

>> SO, YOU KNOW, ONE DEFINING FEATURE OF THIS PROPOSED STATE BUDGET IS THAT ALL ACROSS THE BOARD, GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL AND THE LEADERS OF THE ASSEMBLY AND SENATE, ARE PROPOSING INCREASES TO AN ALREADY SIZABLE STATE BUDGET.

YOU KNOW, WITH THE IDEA THAT THE STATE IS STILL RECOVERING FROM ALL OF THE REPERCUSSIONS OF COVID, PARTICULARLY ECONOMIC REPERCUSSIONS, AND THEN FURTHER MORE, YOU HAVE MEMBERS OF THE SENATE IN PARTICULAR WHO ARE REALLY LOOKING TO REALLY USE THIS OPPORTUNITY TO ADDRESS LONG-STANDING SOCIAL CRISES IN NEW YORK.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE HAVE A PROPOSAL IN THE SENATE THAT IS -- WOULD CREATE A SUBSTANTIAL NEW CHILD CARE PROGRAM AND CREATE A STREAM OF FUNDING SO THAT FAMILIES COULD GET CHILD CARE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES AND REALLY BUILD UP A WHOLE CHILD CARE WORK FORCE THAT DOESN'T FULLY EXIST AT THIS POINT.

AND SO, YOU SEE THOSE KINDS OF AMBITIONS PLAYING OUT, ALSO FOR RENT AID FOR TENANTS, SOME OF WHOM ARE STILL STRUGGLING TO PAY RENT AND IT'S A SERIOUS ISSUE NOW THAT THE STATE'S EVICTION MORATORIUM HAS BEEN LIFTED.

AND ONE PROPOSAL THAT I THINK ADVOCATES ARE STILL HOPING FOR THAT, I BELIEVE IS NOT ON THE TABLE, THOUGH, YOU KNOW, ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN IN THE FINAL DAYS OF A BUDGET PROCESS, IS CONTINUED UNEMPLOYMENT INSURANCE, A FUND FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS WHO DID GET AMBITIOUS PACKAGE OF AID LAST YEAR FROM NEW YORK STATE BUT YOU KNOW, THAT WAS WITH THE HELP OF FEDERAL FUNDING, WE JUST DON'T -- I SHOULD CORRECT MYSELF, I DON'T THINK IT WAS FOR FEDERAL FUNDING BUT IT WAS AT A TIME WHEN FEDERAL AID WAS REALLY BUOYING THE BUDGET AND THE NEW REALITY WE HAVE HERE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THOSE FEDERAL FUNDS ARE WINDING DOWN.

AND SO NEW YORK IS GOING TO HAVE TO SUSTAIN THIS LEVEL OF, YOU KNOW, BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF ADDITIONAL BUDGETING FOR PROGRAMS THAT, YOU KNOW -- THE STATE DOESN'T NECESSARILY WANT TO BE IN A POSITION OF CREATING NEW PROGRAMS THAT PEOPLE COME TO DEPEND ON ONLY TO NOT HAVE FUNDING FOR THEM IN THE YEARS IN THE FUTURE.

SO, I THINK THAT'S THE BIG CHALLENGE, BASICALLY TAKING THESE AMBITIONS AND BRINGING THEM IN LINE WITH ACTUAL RESOURCES THAT NEW YORK STATE HAS NOW.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THAT'S REALLY INTERESTING THAT YOU ENDED THAT WITH NEW YORK STATE NOT WANTING TO CREATE A SITUATION WHERE IT WAS CREATING REVENUE OR AT LEAST FUNDING, THAT PEOPLE WOULD COME TO RELY ON.

KIMBERLY, I'M WONDERING FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, WHAT PEOPLE HAVE COME TO RELY ON WAS, OF COURSE, THE CHILD TAX CREDIT THAT WAS AT THE FEDERAL LEVEL, BUT THAT WAS ALLOWED TO SUNSET, BUT VARIOUS OTHER THINGS TO HELP PARTICULARLY, I THINK, WORKING MOMS GET BACK INTO THE WORK FORCE, SINCE THAT WAS ONE OF THE BIGGEST GROUPS HIT BY THE PANDEMIC.

HOW DO YOU SEE THE JOB THAT GOVERNOR HOCHUL IS DOING IN BUILDING THIS NEW BUDGET?

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, BUDGETS ARE ALWAYS ABOUT PRIORITIES AND NOT ABOUT DOLLARS AND CENTS.

AND THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THE GOVERNOR TO REALLY LEAN INTO WHAT SHE THINKS IS MOST IMPORTANT AND WHAT SHE THINKS WILL REALLY GET THE STATE BACK ON ITS FEET.

AND WE KNOW THAT WOMEN AND CHILD CARE PROVIDERS TOOK A HUGE HIT, BECAUSE OF THE PANDEMIC AND REALLY LOOKING AT, YOU KNOW, WAYS TO BOLSTER THEM AND GET THEM BACK INTO THE WORK FORCE.

AND WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, HOPEFULLY INCREASED MONEY FOR CHILD CARE, YOU KNOW, THE STATE COMPTROLLER PUT OUT A REPORT LAST WEEK REMINDING US THAT WOMEN ARE STILL MAKING 86 CENTS ON THE DOLLAR OF A WHITE MALE, SO, THERE STILL IS A LOT OF WORK THAT CAN BE DONE AND I THINK SOME OF THE PROPOSALS THAT ARE BEING BANDIED ABOUT IN THESE FINAL DAYS COULD, YOU KNOW, TAKE A STEP FORWARD.

WE KNOW THAT THE SOCIAL NET -- THE SOCIAL SAFETY NET WAS REALLY STRAINED, BUT WE ALSO SAW HOW IMPORTANT IT WAS OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS TO MAKE SURE THAT IT IS FORTIFIED, BECAUSE WE DON'T KNOW WHEN THESE THINGS WILL HAPPEN AND REALLY -- IT REALLY SHOWED HOW MUCH NEED THERE IS OUT THERE FROM, YOU KNOW, THE EVICTIONS AND JUST THE QUALITY OF LIFE THAT PEOPLE ARE STRUGGLING WITH, IN WAYS THAT THEY HADN'T BEFORE.

>> OF COURSE, AND RAFAEL, NOT ONLY WHAT WE'VE HEARD SO FAR ABOUT GOVERNOR HOCHUL'S AT LEAST BUDGET PROPOSALS AND WHAT SHE INTENDS TO DO, BUT THERE'S BEEN A LOT OF TALK ABOUT THE FACT THAT HER ADMINISTRATION HAS SO FAR EITHER BEEN HANDS OFF OR UNWILLING TO GET INTO DETAILS ABOUT THE ISSUE OF BAIL REFORM.

AND I'M WONDERING HOW YOU SEE THAT FACTORING INTO THE DECISIONS SHE'S MAKING.

>> YEAH, I THINK, YOU THOUGH, IT'S ALWAYS FRUSTRATED THAT POLICIES LIKE BAIL REFORM GET HANDLED THROUGH BUDGETARY PROCESSES.

I'VE ALWAYS FOUND THAT PERPLEXING AND THE PUBLIC WOULD BE BETTER SERVED HAVING THOSE ISSUES DEALT WITH ON THEIR OWN, BUT I DO THINK IT'S HIGH TIME THAT THE GOVERNOR, YOU KNOW, I THINK, COME TO TERMS WITH THE FACT THAT NEW YORK CAN NO LONGER MAINTAIN ITS STATUS AS AN OUTLIER IN SO FAR AS IT'S THE ONLY STATE IN THE UNION THAT DOES NOT ALLOW DANGEROUSNESS TO BE CONSIDERED WHEN JUDGES ARE MAKING PRE-TRIAL RELEASE DECISIONS.

NOW, YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT THE POLITICAL WILL EXISTS TO DO THAT, I THINK THAT ANSWER -- I THINK THAT QUESTION CAN BE ANSWERED IN THE NEGATIVE.

I DON'T SEE THAT HAPPENING IN THE SHORT-TERM.

PARTLY BECAUSE A LOT OF THE STATISTICS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE AVAILABLE HAVE BEEN CHERRY PICKED TO MINIMIZE THE PROBLEMS THAT BAIL REFORM SEEMS TO HAVE CAUSED.

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT WE CAN WALK AWAY FROM THE FACT THAT FOR EXAMPLE, THE SHARE OF VIOLENT FELONY ARRESTS IN NEW YORK CITY INCREASED BY 25% IN 2020 COMPARED TO 2019.

I DON'T THINK THAT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH BAIL REFORM, I THINK THAT'S MOSTLY DRIVEN BY THE BAIL REFORM.

I THINK THE GOVERNOR KNOWS THAT.

WHAT I THINK IS HER BIGGEST CHALLENGE IS NAVIGATING THE FACT THAT PEOPLE HAVE NO INTENTION OF REALLY PLAYING BALL HERE AND WANT TO MAINTAIN THE STATUS QUO FOR AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT THE ISSUE OF BAIL REFORM IS TAKING, PERHAPS, TOO MUCH OF THE OXYGEN OUT OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE REFORM CONVERSATION?

>> IT CERTAINLY GETS OUTSIDE ATTENTION.

THERE ARE A LOT OF OTHER ISSUES THAT DO REQUIRE ATTENTION, INCLUDING THE IMPACT OF RAISE THE AGE, THE IMPACT OF DISCOVERY REFORM, SOME OF THE OTHER LEVERS THAT HAVE BEEN PULLED IN RECENT YEARS.

I THINK PART OF THE REASON THAT'S THE CASE IS BECAUSE BAIL REFORM IS PROBABLY THE MOST INTUITIVE POLICY FOR PEOPLE TO UNDERSTAND, WITH RESPECT TO ITS IMPACT.

WHEN SOMEBODY WATCHES THE NEWS AND THEY SEE A CRIME THAT'S ALLEGEDLY COMMITTED BY SOMEBODY WHO HAS 15 PRIOR ARRESTS AND WAS OUT ON PRE-TRIAL RELEASE, THEY UNDERSTAND THAT IS AN AVOIDABLE CRIME AND THEY GET UPSET ABOUT THAT, NATURALLY SO.

I THINK IT'S -- THE POLITICS OF BAIL REFORM ARE JUST EASIER TO TRANSLATE FOR THE EVERYDAY PERSON, WHICH IS WHY THAT ISSUE GETS OUTSIDE ATTENTION, BUT YOU KNOW, IT IS ONE OF THOSE THINGS THAT I THINK SHOULD BE NEAR THE TOP OF THE LIST OF THINGS THAT NEED TO CHANGE FOR NEW YORK TO GET CRIME UNDER CONTROL.

>> I WANT TO PIVOT TO ANOTHER BIG ISSUE FOR THE STATE AND THAT IS, OF COURSE, EDUCATION.

WE KNOW THE IDEA OF FREE COLLEGE TUITION HAD BEEN FLOATED BY THE GOVERNOR'S ALWAYS AND THERE'S ALWAYS THE ONGOING ISSUE OF MAYORAL CONTROL OVER SCHOOLS.

ALYSSA, WHERE DOES AT LEAST RIGHT NOW THE STATE STAND WITH BOTH OF THOSE VERY BIG ISSUES?

>> SO, I MEAN, SOMETHING THAT'S VERY WELCOME FOR THE STUDENTS AND FACULTY, BOTH STATE UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK AND CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK WILL BE GETTING SOME NEW FUNDING, BUT WE HAVE MOVEMENT, ESPECIALLY LED BY CUNY FACULTY SAYING, NO, THEY NEED MUCH, MUCH MORE, AND THAT INCLUDES CAPITAL INVESTMENT.

YOU HAVE A LOT OF CITY UNIVERSITY BUILDINGS THAT ARE QUITE LITERALLY FALLING APART.

AND I THINK THERE'S A REAL EFFORT TO CALL ATTENTION TO THAT.

I DON'T THINK THE BUDGET IS GOING TO BE ABLE TO MAKE MASSIVE NEW INVESTMENT, BUT HIGHER ED IS VERY MUCH A PRIORITY.

I THINK IT'S NOTABLE THAT THE REQUESTED CONTINUATION OF MAYORAL CONTROL OF THE SCHOOLS WHICH IS CONTROLLED BY THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

NEW YORK CITY DOES NOT HAVE LEGAL AUTHORITY TO RUN ITS OWN SCHOOLS, YOU KNOW, BY THE MAYOR, THAT THAT'S NOT IN THE BUDGET RIGHT NOW AND EVEN AS WE HAVE OTHER POLICY ISSUES SUCH AS POTENTIALLY BAIL REFORM OR OTHER CRIMINAL JUSTICE ISSUES IN THE MIX, AND I THINK THAT SPEAKS TO JUST KIND OF ALBANY POLITICS, THAT THIS, YOU KNOW, THAT THE LEADERS KNOW THAT MAYORAL CONTROL IS SOMETHING THAT THEY CAN USE TO HOLD OVER ADAMS AND TRY TO USE AS A WAY TO -- AS A BARGAINING CHIP, AS THE CITY IS SEEKING OTHER THINGS SUCH AS FUNDING FOR HIGHER ED AND FUNDING FOR SCHOOLS.

SO, YOU KNOW, BUT IT'S A CONCERN, BECAUSE IT'S CHALLENGING, AS PAST MAYORS HAVE LEARNED, TO RUN A SCHOOL SYSTEM WHEN YOU KIND OF HAVE TO BEG AND PLEAD EVERY YEAR FOR THE AUTHORITY TO DO THAT AND ADAMS WANTS THAT AUTHORITY FOR YEARS TO COME.

>> KIMBERLY, ONE OTHER REALLY BIG ISSUE THAT IS, I THINK, EASILY OVERLOOKED WHEN IT'S NICE AND SUNNY OUT, BUT NOT WHEN THERE'S A 100-YEAR STORM THAT SEEMS TO COME VERY FREQUENTLY, IS, OF COURSE, CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE, IS THIS ENOUGH OF A PRIORITY IN THE BUDGET IN TERMS OF MAKING SURE THAT THE NECESSARY PREVENTATIVE MEASURES, THE SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE TO PERHAPS TAKE SOME OF THE PREVENTATIVE MEASURES TO LOWER THEIR CARBON FOOTPRINT, IS THAT BEING CONSIDERED?

>> I THINK IT IS, BUT AS WE ARE SEEING, JUST AS YOU SAID, THE 100-YEAR STORMS ARE COMING, IT FEELS LIKE, EVERY TWO YEARS, AND WE'RE SEEING THAT WE HAVE TO TAKE VERY DRASTIC MEASURES.

THERE WAS A STUDY THAT JUST CAME OUT SAYING THAT LONG ISLAND IS IN VERY BAD SHAPE IN TERMS OF SEA RISE AND WHAT THAT WILL MEAN FOR PEOPLE'S HOMES AND BEING ABLE TO HAVE THE INSFRA STRUCTURE TO KEEP THE CAPITAL IMPROVEMENTS TO KEEP PEOPLE SAFE AND HEALTHY AS WELL AS MAKING SURE WE ARE LOWERING OUR OVERALL CARBON FOOTPRINT IS SOMETHING THAT NEEDS TO BE EXAMINED AND EXPANDED, YOU KNOW, THE WIND FARMS THAT ARE GROWING, WE NEED MORE OF THEM.

BUT I THINK THERE IS ALSO A TRADEOFF IN THESE BUDGETS AND, YOU KNOW, AGAIN, IT GOES BACK TO, WHAT ARE THE MOST PRESSING PRIORITIES?

AND I THINK UNTIL WE HAVE ANOTHER STORM, YOU KNOW, LOOMING ON THE DOPPLER RADAR, IT WON'T REALLY BE PART OF THE PRESSING CONVERSATION AS IT NEEDS TO BE.

>> WELL, SPEAKING OF THINGS THAT PERHAPS DON'T GET THE ATTENTION THAT THEY SHOULD, EVEN THOUGH THEY ARE ONGOING LIKE CLIMATE CHANGE IS THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC.

RAFAEL, I'D LOVE TO GET YOUR TAKE ON WHERE THE STATE -- HOW THE STATE IS HANDLING COVID RELIEF FUNDS.

NOW, WE KNOW THAT THE GOVERNMENT, THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, HAS GOTTEN A LOT OF BACKLASH FOR NOT INCLUDING FUNDING FOR COVID RELIEF IN THEIR NEXT UPCOMING SPENDING BILL, BUT FOR NEW YORK STATE, IS NEW YORK STATE DOING ENOUGH TO BE ABLE TO KEEP THE NUMBERS UNDER CONTROL, CONSIDERING THERE'S A POSSIBILITY WE MIGHT SEE ANOTHER INCREASE IN CASES?

>> YOU KNOW, IT'S A HARD PROBLEM TO ASSESS.

I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT NEW YORK IT IS HASN'T YET GRAPPLED WITH IS WHETHER THERE DOES EXIST FATIGUE ABOUT THIS AND, YOU KNOW, THERE'S -- YOU NEED A LEVEL OF COMPLIANCE AMONG THE GENERAL PUBLIC TO MITIGATE THE EFFECTS OF THIS DISEASE.

I THINK THE PUBLIC WAS VERY MUCH ONBOARD WITH COMPLYING WITH A LOT OF THE REGULATIONS, BUT YOU KNOW, THOSE HIT VERY HARD, THEY HIT SMALL BUSINESSES VERY HARD, THEY HIT INDIVIDUALS VERY HARD.

THEY UPENDED PEOPLE'S LIVES.

AND TWO YEARS-PLUS NOW INTO THIS PANDEMIC, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE KIND OF MADE A DECISION THAT THEY'RE WILLING, YOU KNOW, AT LEAST IN LARGE ENOUGH NUMBERS THAT THEY'RE WILLING TO MAINTAIN NORMALCY.

WHAT REMAINS TO BE SEEN IS IF ALBANY IS GOING TO PLAY ALONG WITH THAT AND CREATE THE CONDITIONS FOR PEOPLE TO RETURN TO NORMALCY, WHICH IS THE ONLY THING I THINK WILL WORK RIGHT NOW.

I THINK, YOU KNOW, IF WE START TO SEE IT SORT OF DOUBLING DOWN ON, YOU KNOW, SORT OF HARSHER POLICIES THAT WE SAW TOWARD THE FRONT END OF THE PANDEMIC, I'M NOT SURE THAT THERE IS A NUMBER IN THE FORM OF RELIEF THAT WILL GET THE PUBLIC TO GO ALONG.

>> WELL, THAT, OF COURSE, WILL REMAIN TO BE SEEN.

BUT I DO WANT TO PIVOT FROM HOW WE ARE HANDLING, AT LEAST AT THE GOVERNMENT LEVEL THE COVID-19 PANDEMIC TO LOCALLY AND THAT OF COURSE IS WITH MAYOR ADAMS' DECISION TO LIFT THE VACCINE MAN DATE FOR ATHLETES AND PERFORMERS.

WE KNOW THAT THAT HAPPENED FOR ANYONE WHO IS A BASKETBALL FAN, WE KNOW THAT KYRIE IRVING, THAT MEANS HE WAS ABLE TO PLAY WITH HIS TEAM, THE NETS, AT THE BARCLAYS CENTER, BUT WHY ARE SOME CITY WORKERS UPSET ABOUT THIS?

>> WELL, CITY WORKERS, AND I WOULD ALSO SAY, PRIVATE WORKERS, IT'S KIND OF, YOU KNOW, UNFATHOMABLE FROM A PUBLIC HEALTH POINT OF VIEW, AND IT'S, YOU KNOW, IT'S IN THE NAME OF PUBLIC HEALTH THAT THESE RULES EXIST AND THAT MAYOR ADAMS MADE THIS EXEMPTION TO SAY THAT IT'S OKAY FOR KYRIE IRVING TO PLAY, BUT NOT OKAY TO BE AN EMPLOYEE IN THE PUBLIC OR PRIVATE SECTOR AND NOT BE VACCINATED, RIGHT?

AND YES, YOU CAN, YOU KNOW, WE JUST HAD 1,400 CITY EMPLOYEES WHO WERE FIRED BECAUSE THEY WEREN'T VACCINATED.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE STILL YET TO BE TERMINATED BECAUSE THEY HAVEN'T HAD THEIR SECOND SHOTS.

AND YOU HAVE A MANDATE ON ALL PRIVATE EMPLOYERS FOR WHICH ADAMS MADE AN EXCEPTION SOLELY FOR PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES.

AND I THINK THIS IS JUST, YOU KNOW, ADAMS CLEARLY FEELS LIKE HE HAS THE KIND OF MOMENTUM OF PUBLIC OPINION BEHIND HIM THAT PEOPLE GENERALLY SUPPORT STRONG COVID MITIGATION MEASURES AND THAT THE VACCINE MANDATE HELPS RAISE THE LEVEL OF COMFORT IN THE WORKPLACE, THAT WORKPLACES ARE A SAFE PLACE TO GO, BUT AT THIS POINT, WITH THE VAST MAJORITY OF WORKING-AGE ADULTS VACCINATED AND NO SORT OF ADDITIONAL BENEFIT TO NECESSARILY BE GAINED BY CONTINUING TO HAVE A MANDATE, YOU KNOW, IT'S JUST HARD TO JUSTIFY THAT IF YOU'RE A PROFESSIONAL BALL PLAYER, THAT YOU DON'T HAVE TO BE VACCINATED, BUT IF YOU'RE A WORKING PERSON, THAT YOU CANNOT GET A JOB.

IT JUST -- SEEMS LIKE AN UNSUSTAINABLE POLICY.

>> RAFAEL, DO YOU THINK THERE'S ANY RESOURCE FOR PEOPLE, CITY WORKERS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR JOBS, BECAUSE OF THEIR UNWILLINGNESS TO BE VACCINATED WHILE THIS MANDATE IS GETTING LIFTED FOR SOME BUT NOT OTHERS?

>> YEAH, I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL RESOURCE, AT LEAST IN THE COURTS, IS GOING TO BE REALLY LIMITED.

TRADITIONALLY, COURTS HAVE DEFERRED TO LOCAL GOVERNMENTS WHEN MAKING POLICY, PARTICULARLY IN THE NAME OF PUBLIC HEALTH AND EXERCISES THEIR STATE POLICE POWERS.

I'M NOT SURE LITIGATION GETTING THEM VERY FAR.

THIS IS ONE OF THE FEW SORT OF INSTANCES WHERE I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF POLITICAL MOMENTUM, WHERE YOU HAVE A LARGE PART OF THE PUBLIC SORT OF QUESTIONING THE LOGICAL CONSISTENCY OF THIS POLICY AND THAT ULTIMATELY IN THE POLITICAL CONSEQUENCES ASSOCIATED WITH IT, I THINK, ARE WHAT'S GOING TO GET PEOPLE TO CHANGE THAT THEY WANT MUCH MORE THAN LITIGATION AND LEGAL RESOURCE.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, KIMBERLY, THE OTHER BIG THING THAT ADAMS HAS BEEN PUSHING IS, OF COURSE, FOR PEOPLE TO COME BACK TO WORK IN THE OFFICE IN MANHATTAN.

DO YOU SEE THAT THIS -- AT LEAST THIS CHANGE FOR ATHLETES AND PERFORMERS, DOES THIS FURTHER HIS, I GUESS HIS ARGUMENT THAT, YES, IT'S SAFE TO COME BACK, EVEN THOUGH DEPENDING ON WHAT KIND OF PRIVATE SECTOR OR PUBLIC SECTOR JOB YOU MIGHT HAVE, YOU STILL COULD BE CAUGHT IF YOU'RE NOT VACCINATED?

>> WELL, I THINK IT IS DEFINITELY A -- A CHALLENGE JUST FROM A NARRATIVE STANDPOINT, GIVEN THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO MADE DECISIONS ABOUT THEIR CAREERS OF WHETHER OR NOT THEY WERE STAYING IN NEW YORK BECAUSE OF THE VACCINATION MANDATE.

AND NOW TO SAY, OKAY, IT'S SAFE TO COME BACK TO WORK, BUT NOT EVERYBODY -- OR THESE PARTICULAR PEOPLE DON'T NEED TO BE VACCINATED, WELL, WHAT MAKES THEM DIFFERENT?

SO, I THINK THERE IS -- EMPLOYERS ARE REALLY LOOKING AT, WHAT IS IT GOING TO TAKE TO BRING THEIR STAFFS BACK INTO THEIR BUILDINGS?

PEOPLE ARE DEFINITELY THINKING THROUGH, YOU KNOW, NOW ALL OF THESE PIECES THAT HAVE BEEN UNCOVERED AROUND CHILD CARE AND TRANSPORTATION AND WHETHER OR NOT IT IS -- IT MAKES SENSE FOR THEM TO COME BACK, AS WELL AS, YOU KNOW, DO THEY FEEL SAFE IN THEIR OFFICES, AS WE'RE SEEING, YOU KNOW, DIFFERENT VARIANTS OF THE VIRUS COMING THROUGH, EVEN IF YOU ARE VACCINATED, YOU CAN STILL GET IT.

SO, WHAT MAKES SENSE, WHAT ARE PEOPLE COMFORTABLE WITH?

YOU KNOW, WHETHER OR NOT PEOPLE ARE GOING TO BE WEARING MASKS, I THINK IT'S -- IT MAY BE THE MAYOR'S DESIRE TO GET PEOPLE TO COME BACK INTO THE OFFICES, BUT IT -- I THINK PEOPLE'S COMFORT LEVEL IS AT SUCH VARYING PLACES THAT IT'S GOING TO BE VERY HARD TO MANDATE THAT EVERYONE BE BACK IN AN OFFICE.

>> VERY TRUE.

ALYSSA, YOU KNOW, WE TOUCHED ON SORT OF -- AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR CONVERSATION WHEN WE TALKED ABOUT BAIL REFORM, BUT OF COURSE, THE IMPACT OF RISING CRIME RATES IN THE CITY IS SOMETHING ELSE THAT A LOT OF PEOPLE MOST LIKELY TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION WHEN THEY CONSIDER COMING BACK TO NEW YORK.

WE UNDERSTAND THAT PLAIN CLOTHES OFFICER UNITS AND -- FOR LACK OF A BETTER DESCRIPTION, BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING IS COMING BACK.

WHAT DO WE KNOW ABOUT THE WAY THAT MAYOR ADAMS IS GOING TO ROLL OUT THIS POLICY AND HOW IT MIGHT DIFFER FROM THE WAY IT WAS DONE BEFORE?

>> WELL, I MEAN, I THINK THAT ONE KEY FEATURE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THESE PLAIN CLOTHES OFFICERS ARE NOT GOING TO BE ENTIRELY PLAIN CLOTHES.

THEY WILL BE IDENTIFIABLE TO THE PUBLIC.

THEY'RE ALSO GOING TO HAVE BODY-WORN CAMERAS WHERE FOOTAGE WILL BE AVAILABLE AND WE'RE IN A WORLD WHERE, OF COURSE, ANY INTERACTIONS BETWEEN POLICE AND THE PUBLIC ARE QUITE LIKELY TO END UP ON VIDEO.

SO, I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, WE'RE SORT OF -- WE'RE NOW SEEING BROKEN WINDOWS-STYLE POLICING POTENTIALLY COMING BACK AND I SAY POTENTIALLY BECAUSE WE REALLY HAVE TO SEE HOW IT PLAYS OUT ON THE STREETS, BUT THIS IS HAPPENING IN THE POST-FERGUSON ERA, WHERE YOU DO HAVE POLICE OFFICERS, MANY OF WHOM, YOU KNOW, WERE TRAINED AND CAME ON THE FORCE IN THE LAST FEW YEARS, INTO THIS NEW ERA, WHERE, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WHAT THEY WILL BE WILLING AND ABLE TO DO WITH THE SCRUTINY OF THE WORLD UPON THEM AND IN TERMS OF WHETHER IT'S, YOU KNOW, ARRESTS FOR MISDEMEANORS, MANY OF WHICH, BY THE WAY, ARE NO LONGER ARRESTABLE, OR, YOU KNOW, OTHER KINDS OF ACTIONS, IT'S NOT ENTIRELY CLEAR TO ME SORT OF WHAT THAT ACTUALLY LOOKS LIKE IN THAT MODERN CONTEXT WITH AN ENTIRELY KIND OF CHANGED SET OF LAWS AND SOCIAL NORMS AROUND POLICE AND PUBLIC INTERACTIONS.

>> RAFAEL, YOU KNOW, YOU'RE -- YOU'RE A REALLY GOOD NUMBERS AND STATISTICS GUY AND SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE ALSO KNOW THAT THE NYPD IS GOING TO BE BRINGING -- OR ENFORCING INTENTLY AGAIN -- IS GOING TO BE QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES.

THAT'S EVERYTHING FROM PUBLIC DRINKING, DICE GAMES, THINGS THAT CAN LEAD TO DISPUTES, ET CETERA, SO IS THAT THE BEST WAY TO TRY TO QUELL THE RISE IN VIOLENCE THAT NEW YORK IS SEEING?

>> I THINK IT CERTAINLY IS AN IMPORTANT PART OF A BROADER EQUATION, YES.

YOU KNOW, THE QUESTION IS, THOUGH, IS TO WHAT DEGREE IS IT GOING TO BE EFFECTIVE IN TODAY'S DAY AND AGE, GIVEN THE EROSION OF THE INSTITUTIONS THROUGHOUT THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM THAT NO LONGER WANT TO OPERATE AT THE SORT OF BACKSTOP TO POLICING THAT THEY OPERATED AS BACK IN THE 1990s.

YOU KNOW, THIS IDEA THAT BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING IS KIND OF COMING BACK ASSUMES THAT BROKEN WINDOWS LEFT IN THE FIRST PLACE, BUT I'M NOT SURE IS ENTIRELY RIGHT.

IT'S NOT LIKE THE NYPD WALKED AWAY FROM IT.

UNDER BILL BRATTON, THE NYPD DEFENDED ITS BROKEN WINDOWS PRACTICES, WHICH WERE STILL IN EFFECT UNDER MAYOR DE BLASIO'S TENDER.

I THINK WHAT HAPPENED WAS, WE SAW OTHER PARTS OF THE CRIMINAL JUSTICE SYSTEM, D.A.s, YOU KNOW, CHOOSING NOT TO PROSECUTE CERTAIN TYPE OF OFFENSES.

I THINK WE SAW A LOT OF PUBLIC BACKLASH AND RESPONSE TO CERTAIN POLICE CITIZEN INTERACTIONS AND ALL OF THAT HAD THE EFFECT TO DISCOURAGE POLICE PROACTIVITY IN REAL WAYS, WHICH IS WHY WE'VE SEEN SUCH A SHARP DECLINE OF ARRESTS, PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO DISCRETIONARY FUNCTIONS.

BUT A LOT OF THE REASON WHY THEY DECIDED NOT TO CONTINUE THEIR PARTNERSHIP WITH THE NYPD AND ITS MISSION TO POLICE BROKEN WINDOWS IS THAT, YOU KNOW, THE THEORY HAD BEEN SO JUST HEAVILY MISCHARACTERIZED AND DEMONIZED AND BECAME REALLY MISUNDERSTOOD.

I THINK PEOPLE STARTED TO EQUATE BROKEN WINDOWS WITH ZERO TOLERANCE POLICING WITH A SYSTEM IN WHICH ARRESTS ARE THE DEFAULT FOR EVEN THE SMALLEST INFRACTIONS, BUT OF COURSE, THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

I MEAN, I WORK FOR THE THINK TANK THAT EMPLOYED GEORGE TELLING, WHICH WAS ONE OF THE INVENTORS OF BROKEN WINDOWS THEORY AND ONE OF THE THINGS HE WAS FRUSTRATED WITH, EVEN INTO HIS FINAL DAYS, WAS THE MISCHARACTERIZATION OF BROKEN WINDOWS.

WHAT WE WANT IS A SYSTEM IN WHICH POLICE FEEL EMPOWERED TO EXERCISE THEIR DISCRETION AND ENFORCE PRO-SOCIAL NORMS.

IF YOU GO TO A PUBLIC SAFETY MEETING, POLICE COMMUNITY MEETING, WHAT YOU'LL HEAR IS A LOT OF COMPLAINTS ABOUT QUALITY OF LIFE ISSUES.

AND SO WHEN THE POLICE WANT TO BE RESPONSIVE, THEY HAVE TO HAVE AN ANSWER FOR THE QUESTION OF, OR WHAT?

IF A POLICE OFFICER SAYS, HEY, YOU HAVE TO PUT THAT OUT, IF THEY'RE SMOKING MARIJUANA IN PUBLIC, YOU HAVE TO POUR THAT OUT IF THEY'RE DRINKING IN PUBLIC, HEY, YOU HAVE TO CLEAR OUT, AND SOMEONE SAYS NO, WELL, YOU KNOW AN ARREST IS INEVITABLE.

AND IF THE REST OF THE SYSTEM IS NOT GOING TO BACK THAT ARREST, THEN, YOU KNOW, THE POTENTIAL BENEFITS OF THAT PRACTICE MIGHT BE MUTED.

AND THAT'S WHERE I THINK WE ARE TODAY.

SO, WHILE I THINK THIS IS A GOOD MOVE FOR THE NYPD TO SORT OF RECOMMIT ITSELF TO BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING AND TO QUALITY OF LIFE ENFORCEMENT, IT'S NOT YET CLEAR IF THAT'S GOING TO HAVE THE PUBLIC SAFETY BENEFITS IT WOULD HAVE HAD AT A DIFFERENT TIME.

>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, WE ARE GOING TO HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE, BUT WE WILL BE FOLLOWING UP TO SEE HOW THE ROLLOUT OF BROKEN WINDOWS POLICING, THE RETURN OF THAT, ACTUALLY WORKS IN EXECUTION.

OF COURSE, ALSO, FOLLOWING UP ON WHAT IS AND IS NOT IN THE STATE BUDGET.

SO, I WANT TO THANK MY ROUNDTABLE OF EXPERTS TODAY, KIMBERLY PEELER-ALLEN, THANK YOU SO MUCH, RAFAEL MANGUAL, AND, OF COURSE, THANK YOU AGAIN TO ALYSSA KATZ FOR JOINING ME ON THE "METROFOCUS" FRONT PAGE FORECAST.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, THE AMBROSE MONELL FOUNDATION.