>>> TONIGHT, THE ESSENTIAL LESSONS FROM NEW YORK CITY'S PAST FOR OUR POST-PANDEMIC FUTURE.

FROM THE '70s FISCAL CRISIS TO BROKEN WINDOWS TO REIMAGINING THE CITY AFTER 9/11, WE LOOK BACK AT THE PLAYERS AND POLICIES THAT HAVE MADE NEW YORK, NEW YORK.

"METROFOCUS" STARTS RIGHT NOW.

♪♪ >>> THIS IS "METROFOCUS," WITH RAFAEL PI ROMAN, JACK FORD, AND JENNA FLANAGAN.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY -- >>> GOOD EVENING, AND WELCOME TO "METROFOCUS."

I'M RAFAEL PI ROMAN.

AFTER THE PANDEMIC AND AMID THE NATIONAL SURGE IN CRIME THAT'S NOT LEFT US UNTOUCHED, NEW YORK CITY IS NO DOUBT GOING THROUGH A SERIOUS TRANSITION.

BUT THIS IS OBVIOUSLY NOT THE FIRST TIME THE CITY HAS EXPERIENCED SUCH A MAJOR TRANSFORMATION, SO WHAT LESSONS CAN WE LEARN FROM THE VARIOUS EVOLUTIONS THE CITY HAS GONE THROUGH IN THE PAST, PARTICULARLY SINCE THE MASSIVE FISCAL CRISIS THAT ALMOST PUT NEW YORK OUT OF ITS MISERY JUST OVER 40 YEARS AGO?

THAT TIME PERIOD ARE THE SUBJECT AM THOMAS DYJA'S MOST RECENT BOOK, "NEW YORK, NEW YORK, NEW YORK: FOUR DECADES OF SUCCESS, EXCESS, AND TRANSFORMATION."

HE PROVIDES A PANORAMIC VIEW OF THE CRITICAL EVENTS AND KEY PLAYERS FROM ALL FACETS OF CITY LIFE THAT MADE NEW YORK WHAT IT IS TODAY.

THOMAS DYJA JOINS US NOW.

TOM, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> BY THE WAY, FIRST OF ALL, THE TIME THAW COVER IN THE BOOK IS ALMOST EXACTLY THE TIME THAT I'VE LIVE IN THE NEW YORK CITY, SO IT'S A TRIP DOWN MEMORY LANE.

PARTICULARLY I REALIZE MANY OF THE PLAYERS AND ASPECT OF NEW YORK LIFE I'VE KNOWN, I'VE MET, I'VE TALKED TO, SO IT WAS QUITE NOSTALGIC.

LET ME START OFF THE BAT AS I SAY, THE BOOK TAKES US THROUGH A NUMBER OF EVOLUTIONS, FOUR EVOLUTIONS OR TIME PERIODS YOU BELIEVE THE CITY EXPERIENCED OVER THE LAST 40 YEARS OR SO, AND THE FIST YOU CALL THE RENAISSANCE.

IN FACT, THE PERIOD WHEN THE CITY WAS COMING BACK TO LIFE FROM THE ALMOST FATAL FISCAL CRISIS.

CAN YOU GIVE US A REAL QUICK SUMMARY OF THAT FISCAL CATASTROPHE?

HOW DID I HAPPEN AND WHAT DID IT DO TO THE CITY?

>> RIGHT.

THE FISCAL CRISIS WAS REALLY A PRODUCT OF GOOD INTENTIONS GONE AWRY.

THE CITY WAS REALLY TRYING TO DO PROBABLY MORE THAN IT COULD DO REALISTICALLY WITH ITS MONEY, AND SO IT WAS SPENDING MORE THAN IT COULD AND BASICALLY BORROWING MORE THAN IT NEEDED, MORE THAN IT COULD, HONESTLY, DEALING WITH THE MARKETS.

TAX MONEY COMES IN TWICE A YEAR, AND SO THE CITY HAD TO BOREN A REGULAR BASIS.

AT A CERTAIN MOMENT, THE BANKS SAID, NO WE'RE NOT GOING TO DO IT ANYMORE, BECAUSE THE CITY WAS BORROWING MONEY TO PAY BACK THE INTEREST.

IT WAS A WAKEUP MOMENT FOR THE CITY THAT WAS NOT BEING RUN WELL ON A DAY-TO-DAY LEVEL.

IT WASN'T JUST ABOUT THE MONEY.

IT WAS ABOUT THE CITY NOT BEING UP TO DATE TECHNOLOGICALLY.

IT DID THINGS ON PAPER THAT OTHER CITIES WERE DOING ON COMPUTERS.

IT WAS A WAKEUP CALL FOR THE CITY AS A WHOLE TO KIND OF GET TO THE NEXT LEVEL.

SO WHEN KOCH TAKES OVER, IN A REAL UPSET, FRANKLY, THE EXPECTATION WAS HE WASN'T THE GUY THAT EVERYONE WANTED THE KIND OF POWER PEOPLE WERE BEHIND.

BUT HE KIND OF EVOKED THIS SENSE OF WHAT THE CITY WANTED.

SO HIS CHARGE IS TO REALLY BRING THE CITY BACK TO CUT IT DOWN NEXT TO NOTHING IN TERMS OF WHAT IT HAD TO PAY OUT IN TERM OF AUSTERITY, FIING WORKERS, CUTTING BUDGETS.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME TRYING TO REINVIGORATE THE CITY.

SO MANY HAD LEFT IN THE DECADES BEFORE.

HE NEED BRING THEM BACK.

HOW COULD YOU DRAW PEOPLE BACK TO THE CITY?

AND HOW COULD YOU GET TAX REVENUES GOING AGAIN.

GET NEW RESIDENTS, NEW BUSINESSES.

THE DOWNSIDE IS PART OF THE DEAL THAT HE KIND OF MADE WITH A CERTAIN KIND OF ELEMENT OF POPULATION WAS THAT THE CITY -- THERE WAS A SENSE THE CITY HAD BEEN TAKEN OTHER BY PEOPLE OF COLOR, THAT CONTROL WAS IN WRONG HANDS.

SO THE DIVISIVE NEGATIVE SIDE OF WHAT KOCH BRINGS TO TABLE IS A NEW YORK NATIVISM, AND HIS REAL -- ALONG WITH THE GOOD THAT HE DOES IS A VERY NEGATIVE SIDE OF RACIAL DIVISIVENESS.

>> YEAH, YOU GIVE HIM A MIXED REVIEW, CLEARLY.

BUT IT SEEMS TO ME, CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG, THAT YOU CONSIDER HIM CRITICAL FOR THE RENAISSANCE.

>> ABSOLUTELY, ABSOLUTELY.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE OTHER PLAYERS WHETHER IN GOVERNMENT OR NOT.

SOME OF THE OTHER EVENTS AND SOME OF THE OTHER PLAYERS THAT CHARACTERIZED THIS PERIOD.

>> RIGHT.

I THINK THE TWO MOST IMPORTANT THINGS THAT KOCH DOES, THAT I THINK HE GETS CREDIT FOR, ONE IS THE HOUSING -- THE HOUSING INITIATIVE THAT HE DOES, REALLY, WITH CUOMO.

KIND OF IN THE LATE '80s.

AND BY REALLY FOCUSING AND SAYING WE'RE GOING TO TAKE ON HOUSING IN THE CITY.

AND SO IT BECOMES RATHER THAN A SINGLE POLICY, IT IS A REMARKABLE MOMENT WHERE ITS BANKS, SHAREHOLDERS, STAKEHOLDERS, COMMUNITY GROUPS, ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE AND ORGANIZATIONS GET TOGETHER REALLY FOCUSED ON THE ISSUE AND REDEVELOP PLACES THAT ARE PILES -- ACRES AND ACRE OF RUBBLE IN PLACES LIKE EAST NEW YORK AND SOUTH BRONX.

OVER THE YEARS BECOME PLACES THAT ARE PLACES WHERE PEOPLE ARE LIVING AGAIN.

THE NEHEMIAH PROJECT IS ONE EXAMPLE OUT OF EAST NEW YORK OF COMMUNITY GROUPS WORKING WITH THE CITY AND REBUILDING NEIGHBORHOODS SOME WHEN JULY GIULIANI COMES ALONG AND THE CITY SEEMS LIKE, IT'S BACK TOGETHER, A LOT OF IT IS BECAUSE THOSE NEIGHBORHOODS WERE ALREADY BEING REBUILT.

THE OTHER THING ABOUT KOCH THAT'S IMPORTANT ABOUT THE WHOLE ARC OF THIS BOOK IS HE BRINGS IN A GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO ARE INVOLVED IN THE CITY ALMOST THROUGH THOSE 40 YEARS, PEOPLE WHO HAVE A NEW ATTITUDE ABOUT WHAT THE CITY CAN DO, WHAT PEOPLE IN THE CITY CAN DO, WHAT THE CITY'S POTENTIALS ARE.

SO PEOPLE LIKE GORDON DAVIS, THE PARKS COMMISSIONER, RESPONSIBLE FOR ALL KINDS OF THINGS, CENTRAL PARK CONSERVANCY, JAZZED AT LYNNSON CENTER, MATT LEVINTHAL WHO ARE TRYING TO MAKE THE PLACE WORK, MAKE THE PLACE FUNCTION WELL.

THAT'S THE KOCH GENERATION.

SOME OF THE FOLKS ARE STILL AROUND TRYING TO MAKE IT HAPPEN.

>> IN MANY RESPECTS IT'S HARD TO CONCEIVE OF NEW YORK CITY, OF THE NEW YORK CITY OF THE '80s, A TIME WHICH INCLUDED THE DEVATION OF AIDS AND THE CRACK EPIDEMIC AS A PERIOD OF REBIRTH, A PERIOD OF RENAISSANCE.

I WONDER IF YOU COULD TALK ABOUT THE EFFECTS THOSE TWO TRAGEDIES HAD ON THE CITY AND THE EFFECTS IT MAY STILL BE HAVING ON THE CITY, THE MARKS IT HAS LEFT IF THERE ARE SOME.

>> I THINK ONE OF THE IMPORTANT THINGS IS GENERATIONAL.

YOU KNOW, THE BABY BOOMERS HAVE BEEN THROUGH, YOU KNOW, WOODSTOCK AND WATERGATE AND THE VIETNAM WAR, AND THERE'S A REAL SENSE IN THE EARLY '80s, LATE '70s THAT THEY WERE A GENERATION, THE FIRST GENERATION THAT WASN'T GOING TO DO BETTER THAN THEIR PARENTS.

IT'S HARD TO THINK OF THAT NOW, BOOMERS BEING A SIGN OF ALL TERRIBLE THINGS.

BUT BEFORE THAT THERE WAS A SENSE THEY WEREN'T GOING TO GET ANYWHERE.

WHEN I SAY RENAISSANCE IT'S NOT KOCH AND POLICIES OUT OF CITY HALL.

THERE'S A BROADER KIND OF RENAISSANCE THAT HAPPENS WHEN THE BOOMERS SAY, IF I WANT TO RETIRE, IF I WANT TO PAY FOR TUITION, I BETTER GET INTO THIS MARKET.

AND IT BECOMES A KIND OF FOCAL POINT OF NOT JUST MONEY CAPITAL BUT SOCIAL CAPITAL.

IT BECOMES THE PLACE WHERE, YOU KNOW, THE MARKET AND REAGANISM KIND OF LINKED WITH IT BECOME THIS NEW EXPLOSION OF WHAT LIFE IN NEW YORK IS.

SO THINGS START GETTING CLEANED UP, AND IT'S A GENERATIONAL THING.

IT'S NOT JUST A MONEY THING, IT'S A "IT'S OUR TURN" KIND OF THING AS WELL.

>> WHAT ENDED THE RENAISSANCE AND LED TO THE NEXT EVOLUTIONARY PERIOD, WHICH YOU CALL THE RECONSIDERATION?

>> WHEN YOU'RE STARVING THEY TELL YOU NOT TO EAT TOO MUCH TOO FAST, RIGHT?

AND I THINK NEW YORK ATE TOO MUCH, TOO FAST.

THERE WAS A KIND OF GLUTTONY THAT TAKES PLACE IN THE MID '80s PERIOD.

>> "BONFIRE OF THE VANITIES."

>> LEONA HEMSLY, TRUMP VOLUME ONE.

IT WAS SUTURE SO FAST.

ALONG WITH AN EXCITING DOWNTOWN AND CULTURAL, OTHER THINGS BUT IT WAS A LOT REALLY FAST.

BLACK MONDAY, '87 RINGS THE BELL, LAST CALL FOR DRINKS HERE, BECAUSE THE MARKET IS GOING TO REALLY TEETER.

RACIALLY A LOT OF THE THINGS THAT KOCH HAD BEEN SETTING UP ARE JUST ABOUT TO BLOW UP.

IT HAD BEEN A DIVISIVE PERIOD IN TERMS OF POLICING AND RACE.

MICHAEL STEWART.

THE NUMBERS OF -- KIND OF ALL COME TO A HEAD IN '89, WHICH IS THIS KIND OF EXPLOSION, REALLY.

YOU KNOW, SPIKE LEE'S "DO THE RIGHT THING" IS A GREAT EXPRESSION OF WHAT THAT WAS ABOUT.

EVERYTHING TAKES OFF -- CRACK, CRIME.

IT JUST BLOWS UP.

SO THIS RENAISSANCE KIND OF ENDS UP POPPING AND GOING BACK DOWN IN A CERTAIN WAY.

>> SO, THE MAYOR DURING THE RECONSIDERATION WAS DAVID DINKINS, AND AS YOU DESCRIBE HIM AND AS I REMEMBER HIM, HE WAS THE QUINTESSENTIAL ANTI-POPULIST.

YOU KNOW, THE LAST PERSON ONE COULD IMAGINE ROUSING A RABBLE, AS YOU SAID.

GIVEN WHAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED I THINK A LOT OF US LONG FOR SOMEBODY LIKE THIS IN ANY POSITION NOW, BUT YOU SAY THAT QUALITY OF CIVILITY WAS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT REASONS HIS LEADERSHIP FAILED.

EXPLAIN WHY.

>> I GUESS IN A WAY HE WAS VERY MUCH A POLITICIAN, RIGHT?

HE WAS AN INSIDE GUY.

HE HAD COME UP IN HARLEM POLITICS, KIND OF THROUGH HIS IN-LAWS.

AND HE WAS NOT GOING TO BE THE FIRST GUY MARCHING AHEAD.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE OTHER PEOPLE IN THAT GROUP.

CHARLIE RANGLE, PERCY SUTTON WHO WERE AHEAD, WHO YOU WOULD PICK, THEY WERE KIND OF THE MORE FACES OF THAT SCENE.

AND IT KIND OF JUST CAME TO DINKINS BY THE END, AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WAS PROBLEMATIC WITH HIM WAS A SENSE OF INDECISION.

HE WAS VERY MUCH SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO DO THE RIGHT THING.

I THINK HIS INTENTIONS WERE ALWAYS STRONG, BUT IT LEFT HIM WITH THAT KIND OF PARALYSIS WAY TOO OFTEN OF THIS IS WHAT I NEED TO DO ON A POLITICAL LEVEL.

THIS IS WHAT SHOULD BE DONE, AND SOMETIMES -- OFTENTIMES, MAYBE ALL THE TIME, YOU NEED A MAYOR WHO CAN JUST CUT THROUGH THAT AND SAY, HERE'S WHAT NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

I'LL TAKE THE FLAK.

YOU DO THE HARD THING.

THAT'S MY JOB THE TAKING THE BULLETS FOR YOU TO DO IT.

DINKINS TOO MANY TIMES, EVEN THOUGH THROUGH HIS ENTIRE FOUR YEARS CRIME GOES GOWN FROM DAY ONE, STARTS GOING DOWN, GOES DOWN FAST, BUT DOESN'T GO DOWN FAST ENOUGH.

CRACK PEAKS.

ALL KINDS OF THING PEAK DURING HIS MAYORALTY.

AT THE END OF THE DAY HE WAS NOT ABLE TO REALLY FULLY EXPRESS WHAT WAS GOING ON THAT WAS POSITIVE.

PEOPLE JUST DIDN'T BUY IT.

CROWN HEIGHTS RIOTS CERTAINLY DIDN'T HELP.

ALONG THE WAY, SQUEEGEE MEN.

HE COULD NOT EXPRESS TO THE EVERYDAY NEW YORKER HE UNDERSTOOD HOW GROSS IT WAS AND HOW DANGEROUS PEOPLE FELT EVEN THOUGH IT WAS GETTING BETTER.

HE JUST COULDN'T GET IN THERE AND MAKE PEOPLE FEEL THAT.

>> AND I WANT TO GET TO THAT.

EVERYTHING YOU SAY RINGS TRUE, BUT EXCEPT THIS I HAVE TO SAY.

YOU WRITE OF THIS PERIOD THAT, QUOTE, NEW YORKERS WHITE, BLACK, RICH, AND POOR CRAWL INTO THE THEIR HOLES, LOCKED THE DOORS AND HUNKERED DOWN.

YOU DO QUOTE PEOPLE FROM THAT ERA WHO WERE WRITING THE SAME THING AT THAT TIME, BUT I LIVED THROUGH THAT ERA HERE AS I KNOW YOU DID, AND I ENCOUNTERED MANY UNFORTUNATE CRIMINAL SITUATIONS, AS DID A LOT OF MY FRIENDS WHO RAN THE GAMUT OF CLASS, RACE, AND AGE.

BUT NONE OF US HUNKERED DOWN.

I DON'T REMEMBER THAT PERIOD LIKE THAT AT ALL.

AND I THINK IT'S BECAUSE UNLIKE NOW, AFTER WE'VE EXPERIENCED 30 YEARS OF SAFE CITIES, WE HADN'T EXPERIENCED THAT THEN, AND IT WAS BAKED IN THE CAKE.

>> RIGHT.

IN A LOT OF WAYS -- LISTEN IT'S INTERESTING TALKING TO PEOPLE ABOUT CRIME TODAY.

I KEEP SAYING, IF YOU HAD BEEN AROUND THROUGH THAT YOU WOULD KNOW THIS IS NOTHING, AND THERE IS A TRUTH TO THE MATTER.

YOU WENT ABOUT YOUR BUSINESS, NOT AS IF WE WERE LITERALLY IN THE KIND OF COVID LOCKDOWN SITUATION, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT IT WAS STILL A TIME WHEN I REMEMBER DURING GIULIANI, JUMPING AHEAD, AT A CERTAIN MOMENT SITTING OUTSIDE AT 1:00 IN THE MORNING AND SAYING, I HAVEN'T BEEN OUTSIDE AT 1:00 IN THE MORNING IN A LONG TIME.

IT WAS NOT YOU DID PARTY OUT THERE, AND THAT WAS PART OF THE OPTICS AND FEELING IN '94 WHEN HE COMES IN IN THE FIRST YEAR OR TWO THAT PEOPLE WERE OUT IN THE STREETS, AND THERE WERE -- LIFE IN THE CITY STARTED TO GO BACK OUTSIDE.

LISTEN, IT WAS ALSO THOSE FIRST VCR AND DVDs, MOVES ARE OUT.

MAYBE I WAS DIVING INTO THAT TOO MUCH.

BUT LOOK, A LOT OF PEOPLE DID -- STREET LIFE WAS NOT AS PREVALENT.

>> MAYBE IT WAS MY AGE.

I DIDN'T CARE.

I JUST WENT OUT.

>> YOU WERE OUT THERE CLUBBING AND -- >> I MISS THOSE DAYS, I HAVE TO SAY.

SO, WHAT ENDED THE RECONSIDERATION?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, EVEN THOUGH THINGS CONTINUED TO GET BETTER, THIS WAS THE MOMENT OF THAT FIRST WAVE OF WOKE STUFF, BUT THEN IT WAS CALLED PC, POLITICAL CORRECTNESS.

YOU HAD THE WHITNEY BY ENY'ALL, WHICH WAS CHALLENGING WITH A LOT OF THESE SAME IDEAS ABOUT DIVERSITY AND AND ARE WE GOING THE LOOK AT THIS CITY IN A DIFFERENT WAY THAT'S GOING TO BE MORE INCLUSIVE.

ALONG WITH THE SENSE OF FEAR AND CRIME THAT DINKINS WAS NEVER ABLE TO DISPEL, EVEN THOUGH YOU HAD BRYANT PARK AND THINGS GETTING BETTER IT FELT TO SOME PEOPLE LIKE -- REMEMBER THE PART IN "PERFECT STORM" WHEN THEY GET THROUGH THE TERRIBLE PART AND THEN IT'S SUNNY AND THE OTHER WAVE IS COMING?

THERE WAS THAT FEELING THAT ANOTHER WAVE WAS COMING SOMEHOW.

SO GIULIANI IS ABLE TO REALLY USE IT TO COMBINE THAT CLINTON SENSE OF REINVENTING GOVERNMENT, OF, WE'RE YOUNG PEOPLE, BOOMERS ARE FINALLY TAKING CHARGE.

WE KNOW HOW TO DO THIS.

WE CAN BE LIBERALS BUT STILL PAY THE BILLS MIND SET ALONG WITH A FEAR, A REAL FEAR OF OTHER PEOPLE WHO AREN'T WHITE BEING IN CONTROL, BASICALLY, AND I THINK IT TURNS THEM VERSUS US INTO A REAL PLATFORM.

>> WE'LL GET TO THAT, YOU KNOW.

>> KIND OF MERGED TOGETHER, YOU KNOW?

BECAUSE -- >> BUT YOU CALL THAT PERIOD THE REFORMATION, AND CLEVERLY I WANTED TO -- I SHAKE THE QUESTION TO SAY, WHO WERE THE MARTIN LUTHERS AND JOHN CALVINS OF THIS REFORMATION?

AND YOU CAN LEAVE GIULIANI AND JOHN BRATTON FOR LATER, BECAUSE WE'RE GOING TO TOUCH ON THEM, BUT WHO ELSE?

TIME IS RUNNING OUT.

>> WHO ARE THE OTHER?

THEY REALLY -- WELSH THERE WAS THAT WHOLE WORLD AROUND THE MANHATTAN INSTITUTE.

IT WAS KIND OF A THINK TANK THAT KIND OF POSED AS BEING SORT OF CENTERIST AND WERE GOING TO LOOK AT PRACTICAL KINDS OF ANSWERS ABOUT THINGS LIKE URBANISM AND ATTRACTED A LOT OF SMART PEOPLE TO IT.

>> WE HAVE HAD A LOT OF THEM ON THE SHOW, AND THEY ARE SMART.

>> I'M SURE, BUT IT THE FOUNDATION THAT FUNDED CHARLES MURRAY.

BUILT ON A VERY CONSERVATIVE, TO BE KIND, KIND OF CASE.

AND I THINK A LOT OF TERRIFIC IDEAS WERE PUT OUT IN THERE.

THEY WERE VERY OFTEN IDEAS THAT HAD BEEN THINGS THAT HAD BEEN -- COME OUT OF THE KOCH AIR RAM WHEN YOU READ "REINVENTING GOVERNMENT", A LOT OF THE EXAMPLES IN THE BOOK CAME FROM THE KOCH ERA AND FROM KOCH LITERALLY HIMSELF IN THOSE YEARS.

SO THERE WAS A KIND OF REPURPOSING OF, HOW ARE WE GOING TO MAKE THESE THINGS WORK AGAIN THIS TIME?

SO, IN THE SENSE OF KIND OF CALVINISM OF THAT PERIOD, IT IS LED BY THAT SENSE OF, WE'RE GOING TO GET IT BACK, AND HONESTLY, TALK ABOUT ANYBODY WHO ISN'T GIULIANI IN THIS WORLD IS MISSING THE BIG BEAR, YOU KNOW?

>> LET'S GET TO THAT.

YOU KNOW, TURNING TO CRIME AND TO THE NEARLY THREE DECADES OF PLUMMETING CRIME IN THE CITY, WHICH BEGAN IN FULL -- WE KNOW IT BEGAN WITH DINKINS, BUT WE BEGAN TO NOTICE IT DURING THE GIULIANI YEARS.

ABOUT THOSE YEARS, YOU WRITE, ABOUT THAT YOU WRITE, IN THE END, NO ONE POLICY OR PERSON ENDED CRIME AS WE KNOW IT IN NEW YORK.

NOW, THAT'S NO DOUBT OBVIOUSLY ACCURATE, BUT COULDN'T WE SAY THAT WE DO HAVE A SENSE OF THE CLUSTER OF -- YOU KIND OF TOUCHED ON THIS.

A CLUSTER OF POLICIES AND THE KEY PLAYERS THAT ENDED CRIME AS WE KNOW IT IN NEW YORK?

I MEAN, THE KEY PLAYERS, MAYBE WANT TO INCLUDE DINKINS BUT CERTAINLY WILLIAM BRATTON AND CERTAINLY GIULIANI.

AND THE POLICIES -- THE POLICIES THAT BRATTON INSTITUTED, WHICH DRAMATICALLY RAISE THE COST OF THE TRANSACTIONAL COST OF CRIME -- IT WAS BASICALLY -- YOU TALK ABOUT A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS BUT ULTIMATELY BOILS DOWN TO THAT.

THEY MADE CRIME PAY.

I MEAN NOT PAY.

IT COST.

AND THAT'S WHAT LOWERED THE CRIME.

AND BRATTON WAS THE ARCHITECT OF THAT, AND GIULIANI, EVEN THOUGH HE UNCEREMONIOUSLY FIRED HIM, KEPT THE POLICIES GOING.

CAN THEY BE NAME AS THE PROGENERATOR OF THIS?

>> I WOULD SAY I LOOK AT CRIME IN A -- I CAN'T HELP BUT TO SEE IT IN A KIND OF HEALTH METAPHOR.

IT'S A HEALTH OF THE BODY POLITIC.

SO WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT POLICING, THAT IS VERY MUCH ONE IMPORTANT, CRUCIAL PART OF THE WHOLE EQUATION.

BUT AS I SAID BEFORE, YOU KNOW, TO TAKE PLACES THAT WERE HIGH CRIME, AND YOU LITERALLY FIXED THOSE BROKEN WINDOWS, NOT BY ARRESTING PEOPLE, NOT BY FRISKING PEOPLING BUT BY LITERALLY FIXING THE WINDOWS, AND THAT MEANT THAT HOUSING POLICY.

THAT MEANT TAKING PLACES THAT WERE HIGH CRIME AND NOT NECESSARILY GENTRIFYING THEM BUT PROVIDING HOUSING, REBUILDING THE CONTEXT OF WHAT A NEIGHBORHOOD IS, LETTING COMMUNITIES DRIVE THAT SITUATION, DRIVE THAT ARGUMENT OF REBUILDING A PLACE.

THAT WAS ENORMOUS.

IT ALSO HAD TO DO WITH THINGS LIKE EDUCATION.

THERE WAS A KIND OF END OF -- CRACK COMING DOWN WAS ENORMOUS.

YOU HAD THAT COHORT OF YOUNG MEN LARGELY WHO KILLED THEMSELVES AND KILLED EACH OTHER, AND SUDDENLY THAT GROUP OF PEOPLE WHO WERE AT RISK GOT SMALLER AND SMALLER AND SMALLER.

THE NATURE OF HOW THE DRUG BUSINESS CHANGED FROM BEING A STREET CORNER THING TO A BEEPER THING.

SO THERE'S ALL THESE DIFFERENT PIECES TO SAY WHAT SOLVED IT WAS JUST THE POLICE -- ONE CRUCIAL PART OF IT.

WHAT YOU CAN'T SAY IS INCARCERATION WAS A SOLUTION.

IT WASN'T.

INCARCERATION WENT DOWN IN NEW YORK DURING ALL THAT TIME.

AND AT THE SAME TIME THE COPS ARE GOING OUT THERE, THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WORKING ON BRINGING THAT DOWN.

SO TO ME, HAVING A POLICE THAT PROTECTS AND SERVES, WHAT HAPPENED IS IT BECAME A POLICE THAT CONTROLLED, AND THAT IS A VERY DIFFERENT THING, AND THAT'S NOT A SOLVE THAT'S GOING TO STAND.

>> GOT IT.

WE HAVE TO MOVE ON.

>> SORRY.

>> THAT COULD BE A WHOLE TOPIC IN ITSELF.

I WANT THE GET THE 9/11.

IT'S VERY MOVING YOUR SECTION ON 9/11.

AND YOU WRITE ABOUT IT.

PARTICULARLY I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE BRIEF POIGNANT MOMENT THAT THOSE OF US LIVED WHO 9/11 EXPERIENCED IN THE IMMEDIATE AFTERMATH OF 9/11, A MOMENT YOU EXPERIENCED AS A WRITER REBECCA SOLNOR DESCRIBED AS A DISASTER UTOPIA.

I HATE TO SAY IT, BUT IT WAS REAL SOLIDARITY AND REAL LOVE.

TALK ABOUT THAT MOMENT AND WHY IT DIDN'T LAST.

>> I GREW UP IN CHICAGO AND MOVE HERE WHEN I WAS 18.

EVEN THOUGH I RAISED MY KIDS HERE AND BOUGHT AN APARTMENT, I NEVER SAID, I'M A NEW YORKER.

I REMEMBER I WENT TO THE THIRD GAME OF THE WORLD SERIES THAT YEAR, TOOK MY SON, GOT TICKETS SOMEHOW, AND GOING THROUGH THAT WHOLE EXPERIENCE, KIND OF SURREAL EXPERIENCE, AND AFTER THE GAME, YOU KNOW, WHEN THEY WIN THEY PLAY FRANK SINATRA.

AND EVERYBODY -- 60,000 PEOPLE ARE SINGING FRANK SINATRA, THEY'RE WEEPING, AND I REALIZE, OH, MY GOD, I'M A NEW YORKER.

CAN'T AVOID IT ANYMORE.

THAT FEELING OF BEING SO ENMESHED WITH PEOPLE AND BEING CONNECT WITH PEOPLE AND CONSTANTLY TALK TO PEOPLE AND NOT EVEN -- THE TRUST LEVEL WAS SO HIGH, AND THAT WAS SO DEVASTATING IN COVID SINCE THE ANSWER -- THE REQUIREMENT TO THAT WAS EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE.

IT WAS A TRAGEDY OF A MULTIPLE NUMBER OF LIVES BUT WE COULDN'T CONNECT, COULDN'T HUG, WHICH IS THE THING WE ALL DID CONSTANTLY AFTER 9/11.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

WELL, LISTEN, WE HAVE TO MOVE ON.

WE HAVE LESS THAN FIVE MINUTES LEFT AND I GOT ABOUT -- LET'S MOVE TO THE REINVENTION PERIOD, WHICH OF COURSE IS THE BLOOMBERG.

QUICKLY CHARACTERIZE THAT AND TELL US WHO THE KEY PLAYERS WERE AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

YOU HAVE A PERSON, A REAL VISIONARY, SOMEONE WHO WANTS TO BE A PHILOSOPHER KING.

HE'S ABLE TO PUT A HANDLE ON TAXES AND PLEASE THE BUSINESS COMMUNITY AT THE SAME TIME HE CAN FUND.

I THINK ULTIMATELY HIS IDEA WAS REASONABLY SO THE LET PEOPLE DO THEIR JOB, AND AT A CERTAIN POINT IN A POST 911 WORLD, SELLING THE CITY TO OTHERS, BRINGING IN MONEY, AND TAKING THAT KIND OF SIMPLE EQUATION, WHICH MAKES SENSE ON A KIND OF DOLLARS AND SENSE LEVEL, KEEP THE STREET SAVES AT ALL COSTS AND GETTING THE RICH TO PAY TAXES ENDS UP UNDERMINING WHO'S THE CITY FOR.

WHAT'S THE WHOLE POINT, TO BRING MONEY TO US TO BUILD BETTER SCHOOLS, MAKE TRANSIT BETTER?

OR MAKING THE CYCLE OF MORE THINGS TO BRING IN MORE PEOPLE TO PAY TO MAKE MORE FANCY THINGS?

BLOOMBERG, STRONG INTENTIONS, IMMENSE INTELLIGENCE, BUT ENDED UP TOO MANY STEPS AWAY FROM THE PEOPLE.

>> YOU DON'T SAY MUCH ABOUT BILL DE BLASIO.

HE APPEARS IN THE EPILOGUE.

SEEMS CLEAR YOU DON'T THINK MUCH OF HIM, AND UNFORTUNATELY WE DON'T HAVE TIME TO EXPLAIN WHY.

PEOPLE WILL HAVE TO READ THE BOOK.

SOME PEOPLE CAN FINALLY GUESS.

LET ME GET TO THE FINAL QUESTION, AFTER THE PANDEMIC, AFTER THE SURGE IN CRIME, AFTER WHAT WE'VE EXPERIENCED IN THE LAST THREE YEARS, WHAT'S NEXT FOR THE CITY, WHAT'S THE EVOLUTION, AND WHAT'S THE ONE YOU HOPE FOR?

THREE MINUTES.

>> WHAT I'M REALLY HOPING IS THE NEXT EVOLUTION INCLUDES A LOT OF HOUSING.

I HOPE THAT IT'S A CITY AND A BUSINESS COMMUNITY COMING TOGETHER AND LOOKING AT WHAT WORK AND HOUSING IS AND HOW THAT WORKS SO THAT SOMETHING LIKE A PENN STATION REDEVELOPMENT, THAT WHOLE AREA IS NOT JUST ABOUT BUILDING MORE SUPER TALLS.

IT NEEDS TO BE -- IF WE'RE GOING TO REDO THE CITIER LET'S THINK ABOUT HOW WE MAKE WORK, LEISURE, AFFORDABLE HOUSING COME TOGETHER.

I DO THINK THAT IS REALLY CRUCIAL, AND I THINK THE ONE THING THAT GAVE ME HOPE DURING THOSE COVID YEARS WAS HOW MUCH PEOPLE TALKED ABOUT EQUITY.

THAT WORD WAS OUT THERE FOR THE FIRST TIME IN COMMON PARLANCE, AND I HAVEN'T HEARD IT ANYWHERE FOR BETTER THAN A YEAR.

AND SO I'D REALLY LIKE US TO DUST THAT OFF, AND ALL THESE CONVERSATIONS NEED TO HAVE THAT IN THE CONTEXT THAT WE WERE HAVING IT THEN, WHICH WAS A REALIZATION AND CONCERN, NOT THIS KIND OF FALSE FLAG WOKENESS KIND OF STUFF.

BUT LET'S REALLY TALK ABOUT WHAT THE PEOPLE IN THIS CITY NEED TO DO TO WORK TOGETHER AND TAKE US TO THE NEXT PLACE.

>> HOW OPTISTIC ARE YOU THAT WE'LL GET THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, THE CITY HAS BEEN THROUGH A LOT.

MY NEXT BOOK IS TAKING ME ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE BEGINNING AND THE CITY HAS BEEN THROUGH A SHOCKING NUMBER OF HORRIFYING DISASTERS, AND WE JUST KEEP GETTING UP AND GOING ON.

SO ACTUALLY, I'M HOPEFUL.

I'M MORE THAN HOPEFUL.

>> WELL, TOM, THE BOOK IS NEW YORK, NEW YORK, NEW YORK, SO NICE YOU NAME IT THRICE.

IT'S A GREAT READ.

I HOPE PEOPLE GO OUT AND BUY IT.

THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US, THOM.

>> THANKS SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>>> "METROFOCUS" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- SUE AND EDGAR WACHENHEIM III, FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, BERNARD AND DENISE SCHWARTZ, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG,