>> Tonight, a conversation on mental health and suicide.

Young black Americans are taking their lives in greater numbers than ever before.

"MetroFocus" starts right now.

>> This is "MetroFocus," with Rafael Pi Roman, Jack Ford, and Jenna Flanagan.

"MetroFocus" is made possible by the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund.

Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

Jenna: good evening.

Tonight, we are taking a look at mental health which when overlooked can have dire consequences on our emotional and social well-being.

That is the focus of our new conversation series that continues tonight with a look at black suicide.

The recent deaths of black former USA -- Miss USA and the son of actress Regina King have put a spotlight on the recent rise of suicides in the black community and the disturbing trends that showed that black children are being impacted more than ever.

From 1991-2019, self-reported suicide attempts among black adolescents rose nearly 80%.

Historically viewed as a white problem, many black children are twice as likely to lose their lives to suicide as white children.

Stigma surrounding mental health, lack of resources, bullying, racial injustice and now the isolation caused by the pandemic canal be blamed.

Joining us to dig deeper and discuss what we can do to support young people is Dr. Michael Lindsay.

He is the Executive Director of the mixed silver Institute at New York University.

Welcome to MetroFocus.

>> Thank you for having me.

We are also joined by Sean Upton it, a journalist with the lived experience.

Thank you for joining us.

Jenna: We are also doing tonight by Deeann mine Sando, mental health advocate.

Dion, thank you for doing this.

Shawna, I want to start with you.

You have lived experience and you were friendly with the former Miss USA who made headlines when she ended her life.

Can you take us back to not only how did you know her, but how did you hear about how her life ended?

>> When I was working at the Grillo.com, she and the other two winners came to the office for an interview.

We were able to have a great dialogue with them.

She was amazing incredibly sweet and humbled and poised.

.

When her death happened, it was about of a week full of hearing about death by suicide from resources.

There was a politician who died by suicide.

It was a very triggering event.

It is always a constant go all the time as it relates to social.

When I got the news, I believe it was a TMC alert, letting me know that Cheslie had passed away.

I was in the car with my boyfriend driving home and I read the news and immediately went into work mode, texting my team and the rest of the editorial team to jump on the story.

Once all of it had settled and I am sitting in the car, I burst into tears because I distinctly remember feeling the way that I am sure Cheslie felt when she decided to make the decision, a pretty permanent decision.

It is heartbreaking to see another young black woman, she was only 30 years old.

My suicide attempt was at the age of 28 so I know what is going on in our heads at that point in time.

And then to have to brace myself for about of ignorant and sometimes an empathetic responses to suicide.

A lot of people try to turn it into a moral issue, saying how could they be so selfish?

Jumping off of a building, that is not what black folks do.

It is incredibly frustrating.

For those who have not experienced the deep depths of depression and suicidal thoughts, lucky you.

But I know what that feels like and it is a darkness that you cannot pray away.

You have to try to pull yourself out of it.

There was always this idea of it gets better, but when you are in that darkness, there is no better.

You are feeling this pain and specially if you are, which a lot of black women do, our depression does not look like our white counterparts.

Maybe we are not crying or stuck in the battle the time.

Sometimes that depression can look like a lot of work.

When I am by myself, it is not that way.

It is incredibly painful to be in a room full of people and feel so alone because you cannot express to others how you were feeling because there was always the possibility that you will hear that you have great things going for you, or pray it away.

It is a really hard reality for a lot of folks.

My heart and my love and condolences goes to Cheslie's family.

Jenna: First of all, I want to thank you for giving me the correct pronunciation of her name.

I want to turn to you now and get your take not just on how you felt on these high profile instances of suicide, but what your own personal experience is with it.

>> Thank you for speaking so beautifully, Shawna.

I felt it from the mother perspective from having lost my daughter.

She was 15 when she died by suicide.

What you said is exactly who she was in terms of being the brilliant child and the person who was always the best in her class are and -- and always doing the most.

It immediately brought me back to a reflection of who my child was in the world, at school, being musically inclined, being a writer, and how depression can have a beautiful smile on its face.

Depression can have high accolades.

I immediately thought of Cheslie 's mom.

And at the same thing with Ian.

-- and the same thing with Ian.

It is not their fault.

It is not -- it is really hard for people to understand, what did I do wrong?

Why deny -- did I not see it?

Other interviews I've done with lived survivors, not being able to see the signs, and what do the signs look like for our community?

And how do you check in on your strong friends?

And how do you know yourself well enough to know when you are down and who can check in with you.

That is something I work with my clients.

When they asked me how did I get through guilt, I say quite honestly I did everything I can do.

Family therapy, individual therapy and making sure we know ourselves well enough to know the triggers.

I really appreciate you saying that the media, even though it was your job, knowing this, it was a trigger for you, and you did your job, then you setback with tears and allowed yourself to process your grief.

We do not always give ourselves space to process grief or even experience joy because there is a level of guilt about being a survivor.

It brought up all of that and more.

For me, my daughter's birthday just passed.

She would have been 26 this year , having died at 15.

Finding ways to live for myself and my other surviving children come out one of the things I did was right a book in my daughter's honor and that launched on her birthday.

So I tell people I get Brent to two things -- I gave birth to two things on her birthday.

Creating a path for them to get back to joy after such practical loss and grief.

Jenna: Dr. Lindsay, I am sure for at least other people who were in the black community, perhaps they are hearing things and hearing the uniqueness that makes the black experience in America specific.

But for people who are not in the community, what is unique that black youth are experiencing that perhaps others are not experiencing in the same way.

>> That is a really great question.

I want to thank you and MetroFocus for this conversation.

What do thank you for sharing your stories of your encounters with the challenges related to surviving, as well as whatever challenges one might go through that may lead them to engage in suicidal behaviors.

I want to thank you all so much for your courage.

I believe it will help someone.

I think about your question a lot in the context of the work we are doing with trying to sound the alarm.

We framed our work at the federal level working with a congresswoman to sound the alarm on black youth suicide.

Let me outline three things that are unique for black youth.

One, we talked about stigma or the lack of connection to treatment is really huge in communities of color and certainly in the black community.

You her Shawna said there is a lot of normative kinds of sentiment around praying about it, talking to God, go to church to try to figure it out.

We do that disproportionately more than we will go to a mental health professional.

So that makes it unique.

The second thing that is important is that we know there are disproportions related to the behaviors and being suspended from school for behaviors that other communities might have the benefit of being the recipient of mental health services, but black and brown kids get suspended.

Oftentimes there is a misunderstanding of their behaviors.

Depression looks different in our community.

For some black kids, they might express their depression symptoms in volatile ways or angry or explosive ways.

I once had a kid in therapy who said that when he was depressed, he wanted to punch somebody because he wanted them to feel the same pain he felt.

Oftentimes it is the case that black and brown kids are being suspended in lieu of receiving mental health treatment.

The third thing that is really important is that we know that in the last 10-15 years, there is well documented stories of black folks who are dying at the hands of vigilante or perhaps unfortunately related to law enforcement encounters.

And I think those experiences engender a sense of vicarious trauma.

It might also lead to a feeling of helplessness with what it means to be black or brown in America.

Black and brown kids are filling best sense of helplessness that makes them feel like life is not worth living unfortunately.

Perhaps those collective experiences are what we see in more nuanced ways in the black community that we might not see in other communities.

Jenna: That brings me back to how to reach out and help.

Particularly for young black people and young black women, depression can have a beautiful smile on its face.

With the presence of social media, you see a lot of focus on as the kids would say doing it for Instagram, looking your best and shining in your black excellence.

How are you able to tell when someone is doing that to overcompensate or when they are genuinely just proud of themselves?

How do you balance those two?

>> I definitely beloved Dr. Lindsay to interject if he disagrees, but I think there are subtleties.

Even though you are seeing positive things, there is also a level of knowing.

Each one of us have been on the planet to have this intuitive knowing in her gut.

-- our gut.

You should listen to your gut and you should also think you are the only person who was going to reach out to them.

That post looked great, but how are you really?

And to ask them directly, I am concerned about you.

It is listen to your gut.

And if they say little things.

My daughter gave me a price possession -- prized possession.

Some of those really nice things are farewell.

It did not dawn on me.

So much of that I learned afterward that people giving away their prized possessions is a behavior that is letting you know.

So they are happy, everything looks wonderful, they are clearing the way to leave.

Just check in and say, this is really important to you.

Why wouldn't you want to keep that?

So it is digging deeper than what is at the service.

Jenna: Is that something you would agree with?

>> Partially.

For me, I did not give anything away, but I was very communicative.

I am one of those friends who you may not hear from me every day, but then all of a sudden I was reaching out to certain friends who we only check in every couple of months.

The house that I lived in, my parents were upstairs, and my thought process as I was considering taking the steps was, I need to make sure the house is clean so my mother has nothing to clean up after me.

So I clean my house.

I was hiding things that I would never want my parents to find.

What is so crazy is -- again, everybody handles depression differently.

For me, my misery does not love company.

I tend to go inward a lot.

After being able to talk about my failed attempt, I have had so many of my friends who they are now pushing almost in order to find out how I am actually doing.

In all honesty, that helps, and type of therapy -- on top of therapy.

It cannot just be, let me pray on it when things are not changing for me mentally.

I am incredibly blessed to have a mother who hears when something is off.

If I pick up the phone and say how are you doing, my mom is like what is going on with you?

What is happening in your voice?

It has become a lot more frequent since I actually spoke about what I tried to do in 2015.

My parents were none the wiser.

It had been until I was able to discuss at length.

My parents knew I had a history with depression, but was never that serious until it was.

It is just a matter of always check in.

On your strong friends and on the week ones too.

Do not think any of that matters.

If there are people in this world that you love that sometimes you are late, I do not know how they do it, ask them, because their answer can be the thing that saved somebody's life that day.

Jenna: Dr. Lindsay come I want to bring you in.

Traditionally how have depression and mental health issues been acknowledged in the black community.

How did this become seen as the white problem?

We have about two minutes left.

If you could give us a quick history lesson.

>> Historically, and it has been unfortunate that a lot of communities have turned to substances, alcohol or drugs, we call this self-medication in terms of addressing their pain.

We have had as a tradition going to church and praying about it.

Our clergy have come a long way and are doing a better job of the good knowledge and professional help can be warranted -- of acknowledging professional help can be warranted.

It has been associated with demonic possession.

We are more informed nowadays.

And hopefully less and less of those kinds of messages are being conveyed to people.

>> I have definitely heard, especially from my older family members, I am black, I do not have time to be depressed.

We have seen racial justice reckonings in this country.

We are combating racism and systemic oppression, everything, where it is like do I actually have time to learn about my feelings?

That sounds like white people must.

It flows very freely.

>> That is an excellent point.

Jenna: We are going to have to leave it there.

I want to thank all three of my guests.

This is a critically important conversation that we continue.

Thank you all so much for joining us on MetroFocus.

>> Thank you.

>> Thanks for tuning in to "MetroFocus."

You can take it wherever you go with "MetroFocus" the podcast.

Listen and subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and never miss an episode.

Or ask your smart speaker to play "MetroFocus" the podcast.

Also available at metrofocus.org and on the NPR one app.

>> MetroFocus is made possible by the Peter G. Peterson and Joan Ganz Cooney Fund.

Filomen M. D'Agostino Foundation.

Barbara Hope Zuckerberg.

And by Jody and John Arnhold.

Bernard and Denise Schwartz.

Dr. Robert C. and Tina Sohn foundation.

The Ambrose Monell Foundation.

Estate of Roland Karlen.

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