♪♪♪ Scott: The recent outbreak of violence between Israel between Israel and Hamas has claimed over 9,000 Palestinian lives.

This conflict is layered with history and complexity that has driven protests and anger from all points across the political and religious spectrum.

Joining us today is Council on American-Islamic Relations, Sacramento Valley Executive Director, Basim Elkarra.

Basim, as a Muslim-American whose family is from the Gaza Strip, tell us how this recent violence has personally affected you and your family.

Basim: Um, so far, we've lost over 25 family members and the number continues to grow every... every day.

Every night, our time here, we call there cause its morning time there, to see who survived the... the.. the bombing overnight.

The bombings overnight is relentless.

Um, they can never... they can never sleep due to the bombing.

The strip is-- the Gaza Strip is a very small strip of land.

So, any bombing is going to impact anyone.

And just the... you know its just this guilt that, you know, I feel that I...

I live here in safety and... and... and then my taxpayer dollars are being used to murder my people, my family, and that bombs manufactured here in the United States are killing the Palestinian people.

So, it's a... it's a very difficult time.

It happens, unfortunately, every few years.

But it hasn't been this bad.

Um, you know, this is what the Israelis call “mowing the lawn ” every-- mowing the lawn of Gaza every few years and, um... and it just-- but... but this time just seeing the humanitarian crisis, the number of deaths, um, the homes destroyed, entire neighborhoods destroyed, no water, electricity.

I mean, I think the whole world is in... is in shock at what they're... what theyre seeing unfold before their eyes.

Scott: Many who, um, are either from the Jewish community or have spoken in support of Israel's actions, bring to bear what they consider to be a fundamental fact, that Israel has a right to exist and a right to defend itself against the attack that happened on October 7th.

What is your response to the fact that-- the, uh, that the people that make up Hamas are a danger to not only the Israeli people, but that the response i-is natural, given the fact that this, uh, unprovoked attack took place and, uh, took place, uh, just out of the blue.

H-How do you respond to that?

Basim: Well Id say how the Palestinians respond.

I mean, um, in the West Bank, there is no Hamas, and yet settlers are going around lynching, uh, Palestinians, um, destroying their farms, um, destroying their homes with the backing of the Israeli police and the military.

And so, for Palestinians were saying even before Hamas, Hamas is... is, you know, has been... has only been around for a few decades.

And so, if you look before the-- this conflict goes back 75 years uh, when our-- when the... when the indigenous people of the land were occupied, uh, by... by others.

And so for me, looking at this conflict, I actually take it a step back and I look at, you know, what created this conflict, were actually-- was actually European antisemitism.

And I...

I-- and I say that the... the Pales-- Scott: Explain what you mean by that.

Basim: You know, the... the Palestinians and... and Jews are victims of the Europeans, because what happened, it wasn't just the Nazis.

It wasn't the... the Nazis that were antisemitic and targeted the Jews.

Um, it was actually throughout Europe, even the British.

When the British, when Lord Balfour in 1918, uh, signed the you know, the Balfour Declaration, giving, um, a land that didn't belong, you know, it didn't belong to them, um, to the... to the Jews, um, it wasn't done out of benevolence, um, it was done to... to solve the “Jewish problem, ” as the Europeans call it.

So, they were antisemitic.

And it was... it was... you know, throughout Europe, you know, any time there was a crusade or anything, even fighting the Muslims, they would attack and kill the Jews on the way.

Um, pogroms happened throughout Europe.

So, if you look at the root of it, it was rooted in European antisemitism.

And the victims of it are... are the Jews and the Palestinians.

Scott: But in terms of what is happening on the ground right now, Basim: Well, it-- Scott: The... the attack and the response.

How-- you know, what is the... the feeling amongst the people that you speak with and that you represent with CAIR in terms of this escalation of violence right now and what happens next?

Basim: I mean, this is at a whole different level.

I mean, in the past, you know, conflicts, you would have, you know, 2,000 deaths, 3,000 deaths, but to see, you know, were already over 9,000.

And in this early stage, you know, its only, it was-- I think its only like the 21st, uh, um, day or 22nd day of the conflict.

Um, people are very upset, very angry, um, seeing the images of women and children being massacred.

Entire-- you know, just yesterday, um, they bombed a-- the Jabalia refugee camp, one of the most densely, uh, populated places on Earth, um, without-- you know, maybe I think six bombs, killing hundreds, injuring hundreds.

And, um, the whole world is watching this.

And then they attacked a... an apartment complex, um, six floors, five units on each... on each floor filled with families.

No warnings just destroyed the whole building.

And Wolf Blitzer on CNN actually confronted, um, the Israeli official about this attack.

And they said that they were targeting one Hamas official and by killing, you know, and injuring hundreds.

So, the thing is, the con-- the for... for... for Palestinians or for folks that care about justice, the issue is 75 years of occupation.

The Palestinians here are the victims.

Theyre under occupation.

Um, the Palestinians in 1996, uh, accepted the Israeli state.

And what did they get in return?

Losing more land, more land and more land.

And if you look at the map of Israel and Palestine, historic Palestine, pre 48, and then to what they're offering, the Palestinians now or what the Palestinians have the Gaza Strip, and even the West Bank is bantu- bantustans.

If you look at it, there are, you know, villages and towns and cities connected, um, and surrounded by settlements, surrounded by... by Jewish only roads.

And so, they just kept increasing the pressure, increasing the pressure on the Palestinians to the point where, um, an I-- um, an IDF, uh, Israeli official in August, in August said that increasing settler violence will increase Palestinian terrorism.

So, they-- the Palestinians already-- in Gaza-- were already dying.

I mean, what the Israelis call, “we're putting them on a diet, ” so limited electricity, limited water, limited gas.

I mean, the situation there is just, it's horrific.

It's horrific.

No human being can go through what the Palestinians, um, not, you know, in the West Bank and Gaza, but especially in Gaza, what's been happening, um, since, you know, since 1956 when... when the Israeli, you know, Israelis took over Gaza and then they f-finally left, but then they kept the siege, one of the most brutal sieges for 15-- over 15 years.

So, we have to look at the root of the conflict.

And the... the question is, Israel has gone away from a two-state solution.

Um, the United States has not supported a you know, a two-state solution or peace on... on the ground, what's happening on the ground.

We have the Biden administration that went even far beyond any Democratic or Republican administration, um, in our history, giving Israel a visa waiver program when they know they discriminate against Palestinian Americans traveling over there to see their families.

Many of them just get deported at the airport.

Scott: So, can you explain that a little bit?

I--I haven't heard about that before.

Basim: Yeah.

Scott: What are you talking about?

Basim: So, the visa waiver program is something that, um, where it allows Israelis um, to come to America without a visa.

Um, they can just fly in to the U.S. and... and are able to stay for I think it's 90 days without a visa.

So, this has never happened before because the same department knows that Palestinian Americans and Arab Americans and others, um, get discriminated against, um, when they fly over there.

And many folks just get deported at the airport, not allowed in or... or held for for hours, um, in humiliating conditions.

And so, no administration ever gave them this, yet, the Biden administration gave it to the most right wing fascist regime in Israeli history, where as you saw Israelis and folks around the world were protesting against the Netanyahu government and the judicial reforms there.

Scott: And you're... youre specifically referring to the Netanyahu government?

Basim: Yes.

Scott: Mhm.

Basim: And... and so, um, the current Netanyahu government, which includes the most right wing fascist members in Israeli history, where Israelis themselves have been protesting against this regime for, you know, for quite some time, which got world coverage.

You have Ben-Gvir and Smotrich who openly, openly racist, hate Palestinians.

Um, and... um... Smotrich wasnt, uh, Im sorry, Ben-Gvir wasnt even allowed to run for office.

H-he was... he was, you know, arrested for terrorism in Israel.

So, you have... you have... you have folks that are arming settlers.

Ben-Gvir... Ben-- um, Ben-Gvir right now is giving arms to settlers who are going and lynching Palestinians in the West Bank.

And this is not from-- information from me.

This is BTselem, the Israeli, you know, human rights organization, video documenting, um, these attacks almost on a daily basis.

Scott: T-this, a-a-and not to draw an equivalence, say, Basim, when you talk about horrendous atrocities like you just described, um... we've had others, as a matter of fact, we recently had, uh, Sacramento Mayor Darrell Steinberg talking about atrocities uh, of a similar nature against Jews in Israel and that, you know, it appears that on both sides of this conflict, there has been horrendous behavior by... by all involved.

My question to you is... what is the path forward from here to try and de-escalate the situation and move to some place where it is that these, you know, historic and multi-decade issues finally get addressed?

Or is that a pipe dream?

Basim: I mean, unfortunately, with what the United States is doing right now, its... its becoming a... a far fetched dream because, the... what-- you know, by sending billions of dollars, sending more weapons, that's not helping the situation.

Right?

That's not going to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

It's not going to... it's not going to make Israelis nor Palestinians, um, safer.

And so, the thing is, if you look at proportionality, if you look at all the conflicts um, just if you... you know, Gaz and... and in between it with Gaza and Israel, you look historically, it's 25 Israelis killed, 2,000 Palestinians killed.

50 Israelis killed, you know, 1,500, um, Palestinians killed.

We-- if we-- but we, you know, in our tradition, we have to-- we value every single life.

You know, in... in our tradition the life of one human being is more holy than the Kaaba in Mecca, you know, where Muslims pray towards.

That is our understanding of... of humanity.

And so for us, we came out clear-- you know, early on and said the attacks on any civilians is unacceptable, will... will never be condoned.

And so, but the thing is also the use of propaganda.

So, what happened to justify this latest aggression on the Palestinians, um, the Israelis, um... some Israelis came out and said 40 babies were decapitated.

Um, President Biden came out on national television and said, “I saw images of 40 babies decapitated.

” And the world was like, “Who are these savages?

Destroy these savages, kill them all.

” And then a few hours later, President Biden had to backtrack, um, that comment.

And it was... it was found it was false.

It was-- that was not true.

Scott: That was also reported in the L.A. Times, was it not?

Basim: No.

The L.A.-- So, the L.A. Times retracted the rape allegations.

So, they said they decapitated 40... 40 babies, they raped women, and then all that was retracted when people-- but the... but the damage was done.

So that already spread like wildfire.

CNN, Fox News, everyone was spreading it around the world saying, the-- you know, the Palestinians killed babies, raped women.

And... and it-- what was interesting, you know, all this will come out later on.

The Israelis will do their commission.

After each conflict the Israelis themselves will do a commission, and this information will come out from the Israelis, from B'Tselem, from human rights organizations, from Amnesty from-- a-and they will... they will analyze both sides, what both sides did and reports will come out.

And so the truth, in the fog of war, we've seen the Israelis use propaganda very efficiently and it... and it works, because what we've seen after October 7th is something weve-- we haven't seen in decades... You know, where post-9-11, where people wanted revenge, you know, for the attacks of 911.

You saw... you saw Americans of all stripes saying, “destroy these people, kill these people.

” They would justify genocide on national television.

Um, so, that was... that was very scary.

That was a wake up call, uh, to Palestinian Americans and to... to Muslims and to folks who care about justice.

But it was a wake-- and also Jewish Americans, because we saw what happened with Jewish Americans around the nation protesting some of the largest protests in New York, in Washington, D.C., in California, um, saying, “not in our name.

Cease fire now.

” And... and... and even... even, uh, if you see the footage coming out of Jerusalem where ultra-Orthodox Jews are protesting and getting beat up by Israeli police forces for... for...for speaking out against whats happening.

Scott: Let me ask you a q-- let me ask you a question.

Let's go back to October 7.

Hamas, uh, and it is not typically contested that Hamas, uh, attacked Jews in Israel and killed or took hostage, uh, a significant number of people.

What response should they have had to, uh, that attack on them?

Was it-- from their per-- uh... and I just want to leave it there and... and ask you that.

What is it that they should have done as opposed to what they did do?

Basim: Well, they should have ended the occupation.

If there was no... if there was no occupation, there's no Hamas.

There's no armed groups if there's no occupation.

The Palestinian Authority signed a peace deal with Israel.

What did they get?

What did they get out of that?

What did the Palestinians get out of that?

And i-it-- so, the question... the question is, desperate people do desperate things.

Now, we don't conde-- we don't condone attacks against civilians.

And we made that clear early on without even knowing details.

We've always been clear.

Um, CAIR has for two dec-- for over two decades CAIR has been... CAIR has been on the record that targeting civilians is against our faith and will never be justified.

Now, what's... what's... what's happening is the Israelis themselves said t-this was bound to happen because of what the pressure, the pressure cooker that's been cooking in Gaza and the West Bank from Israeli policies and especially the attacks-- Scott: Right.

But... but I-I...

I have to interrupt you and just ask you for clarification.

In response to the attack on October 7th, uh, Israel should have ended the occupation.

Basim: No, no.

Well, Im not-- Scott: Without the occupation-- Well... well, I thought you said end the occupation.

And without the occupation, there's no reason for Hamas to exist.

But that... my... my own reading is that Hamas has stated that the eradication of Israel is sort of the core principle of the organization.

So... so theoretically, even if the occupation was ended, um, that would not end, um, Hamas's existence.

Basim: I can't speak on... on behalf of Hamas or any Palestinian group, but Hamas and other groups have come out and said they will accept the 67 borders.

Scott: Really?

Basim: Which is a two-state solution.

And the Guardian actually, I just, you know, read an article in The Guardian addressing how... h-how the ideology of these groups in Palestine have evolved over the years.

And they're saying, we accept the 67 border with the right of refugees to return.

And so, if that happens, problem solved, right?

Uh, there won't be, you know, armed... armed factions fighting anymore.

And we can have p-- we can have peace in that region.

But the thing is, Israel is not interested in that.

And... and... and... and for 75 years, it just... it just keeps getting worse and worse.

And if the United States-- and... and all those who care about Israel, instead of pushing just blanket support for Israel, more funding, more arms over the years, had they pushed, uh, for peace and a two-state solution, we would have been in a very different situation right now.

And then you have, you know, and then you... you saw a split.

Folks left AIPAC, um, and joined J Street, you know, and joined J Street and pushing for a two-state solution because they recognize that in the long term that if you want Israelis to be safe, the Palestinians have to be safe and the occupation has to end, that these people's histories are intertwined and that both need to live with-- in... in security and dignity.

And until then, the conflict will continue.

Occupied people are always going to fight back.

They're not going to just accept that they're going to be under occupation and... Scott: Years ago after 911, uh, a number of Muslim Americans talked about the fear and, um, just sort of the sense of anxiety that they had just going about their daily lives in their country.

This country.

Fast forward to today, Basim, how are Muslim Americans, Palestinian Americans, what are their daily lives like at this moment?

Um, it-- is the feeling that, uh, was shared with me, post-9-11, is that present again today?

Basim: I think the fear, you know, if it's not the same, maybe even more, because what we're seeing today, we are seeing hate incidents around the country.

We're seeing hate incidents in this region.

A-- uh... uh, college students being harassed.

Uh, we had a hate... hate incident in Fresno, California, where someone in a truck attacked, uh, pro-Palestinian, um, su-- um, su-- protesters.

And so, and... and one of... and one of the women had to go, you know, get, um, get a surgery.

He ran on her leg.

And so, we're seeing attacks here.

We're seeing people get fired from their jobs all around for posting, um, you know, against what's happening in Gaza, losing their jobs.

And there's... theres a campaign, um, doxing students, um, professors, any-- uh, employees.

There's now campaigns to dox to expose their fellow workers who are ex-- who are speaking out against what's happening in Gaza.

So it is a very scary, you know, environment right now.

Scott: Actually, let... let... let me ask you about that.

Basim: Yeah.

Scott: There are some who say that, um, opposing the policies of Israel is de facto antisemitism and that the two are inextric-- inextricably intertwined together.

What's your view on that?

Basim: Oh, I-I mean, I-I reject that.

I reject...

I mean, imagine saying that any criticism of Saudi Arabia is Islamophobic.

No one's going to accept that.

And so this has been a strategy, uh, from pro-Israeli groups in the United States to connect those issues together.

And they pass resolutions.

They pass resolutions here.

And even in California, you know, to... um, they've passed legislation that for-- to boycott Israel is against the law.

And... and what's scary about these... these, too, that this is infringes upon our First Amendment rights.

Now, we... i-in Pa... even Palestinians have condemned any forms of antisemitism.

But to criticize Israel, um, that is-- we... we don't accept that as antisemitism.

But that's been a strategy and that's to... to silence all those who stand up for Israel, for... for the Palestinians.

That has been a strategy.

Um, and-- but what-- whos been speaking out against this are many American Jews who are saying, “N-no, not in our name.

This is unacceptable.

” And you see what happened in New York where thousands of young American Jews have taken to the streets, have taken over the metro stations and saying you know, and saying... and... and saying we will not accept, um, you know, the... the policies of Israel, um, as... as American Jews.

So, I think it's dangerous.

And I think it's... it's a... it's... it's a scary strategy.

And there are some folks, some Americans are supporting it, uh, but you know, this infringes upon our First Amendment rights.

And... and then what's next?

You... you... you attack, you know, you... you attack the, you know, folks that speak out against Israel, who are you going to attack next?

And so it's a slippery slope.

Scott: To... to... to take uh-- To take it a step further from this, um, view among some that, uh, any criticism of Israel is de facto antisemitism.

I want to ask you from the view of... of CAIR and, um, other affiliated organizations, does Israel, uh-- the fundamental question it always seems to come down to, does Israel have a right to exist?

Basim: It has... it has-- So, for, uh, to ask a Palestinian, what it-- you have to-- we have to ask the Israelis, will you ever allow the Palestinians to come back?

The ones-- that 750,000, now that are millions around the world, will they allow them to come... to come back?

So for me, as a Palestinian, as a Palestinian American-- Scott: That were originally displaced in the Nakba.

Basim: Yeah, I...

I as a Palestinian American, it depends what Israel sees itself in the future.

But what it's showing us is that it can... it-- it's continued the occupation after 75 years, Palestinians can not only not come back any Pal-- some-- a lot of Palestinians have left, they've had their Israeli IDs from Jerusalem removed.

So, there's been ethnic cleansing.

And this is... this is not according to me, this is Ilan Pappé, a famous Israeli historian, um, has written extensively about the ethnic cleansing, um, happening, um, in historic Palestine.

And so, the question is about the existence of Israel.

What is that-- what does that mean to a Palestinian?

Because according to the Israelis, that means that we have no future in it.

And right now the reports that are coming out is to depopulate.

The right wing in Israel want to depopulate the West Bank, and they want to send the Gazans to Egypt and they want to send the West, the folks in the West Bank to Jordan.

So, that's what they're speaking about.

So, when you ask a Palestinian about Israel's right to exist, theyre... theyre-- they don't want us to exist.

And they've been fighting to ensure that no Palestinian entity or state exists.

So, I cannot support in a state that is fundamentally opposed and trying to destroy our people systematically year after year.

Scott: Uh, uh, are...

So Israel's a reality.

Scott: Are you-- So the thing is-- but... but here's the thing.

And I... and I mentioned this earlier, the Palestinians already accepted Israel in 1996.

The Palestinians already accepted Israel.

But what did we-- what did the Palestinians get in return?

There's no state.

And it was a sham.

It was a sham.

But mean now you look-- Netanyahu himself on video in a re... in a... in a... in a... it was a hidden video when he was speaking to some settlers.

Um, they recorded and they.... and they... a-and... and they released it.

He's saying that he tricked the Americans.

There-- hes never gonna make peace.

He talks... he talks peace in front of the world.

And then behind the scenes, hes working to destroy a two-state solution.

Scott: L-let... let me, uh, Basim: And so-- let me just ask you this, in our final moments, Basim.

And again, very briefly, what do you want your fellow citizens, not just in this region but across the country, what is it that you want them to know and to focus on in the coming weeks and months?

Basim: That every life, every life; Palestinians, Israelis, Muslim, Christian, Jew, Hindu, no matter... if we value the life of human beings and believe that everyone deserves freedom and dignity, I think it will change everything.

I think our policies will be much more humane to not just Israel and Palestine.

We have, unfortunately our policies toward the world have not been very fair and just, you know.

Over a million Iraqis were killed due to the invasion that was on a false premise.

So, we have to... we have to do some soul ser-- soul search, uh, soul searching as a nation to see are our policies giving human beings of all stripes-- doesnt matter what-- dignity?

Are we pushing for policies that keep everyone safe?

And until... and until we can address that, the Israelis and Palestinians will never be safe.

They will never live in peace and stability.

And so, and really, the United States has fueled the fire in that region.

I said, like I mentioned earlier, the... the... it started with European antisemitism, and now we're not helping.

We're not helping the situation.

And the... the... the... and the one thing to come-- it comes down to this: Ben-Gurion, the founder of Israel, who was a European, he came from Europe, he said, um, about the Palestinians, we will-- they will not allow the Palestinians to come back after the Nakba.

And then he to-- and then he mentioned, he said, the old will forget-- sorry, “the old will die... the old will die and the young will forget.

” The Palestinians have never forgotten.

Scott: And... and Basim, we're going to have to leave it there.

Thank you, um, for sharing your perspective with us.

Basim: Thank you.

And that's our show.

Thanks to our guest and thanks to you for watching Studio Sacramento.

I'm Scott Syphax.

See you next time right here on KVIE.

♪♪♪ Scott Syphax: All episodes of Studio Sacramento along with other KVIE programs are available to watch online at kvie.org/video.