(upbeat music) (upbeat music continues) - Hey, y'all.

I'm Kiara Butler.

And welcome to "Generation Rising" where we discuss hard-hitting topics that our diverse communities face every day.

And today's topic is a sensitive one.

We're talking about the Missing and Murdered Indigenous Women movement, and I'd like to welcome Vincent Schilling, author, journalist, and founder of Native Viewpoint.

Hi, Vincent.

How are you?

- Hi, thanks so much for having me.

Appreciate it.

- Yes, and we're actually talking to you through Zoom.

How is that feeling for you?

- It feels great.

I'm used to it.

I live on Zoom, especially ever since the pandemic.

We've just been a world of Zoom and social media, and, you know, kind of talking to each other virtually.

So it's certainly something I'm used to, to say the least.

- Yeah, so I'm happy to have you here talking to us about this topic today.

It's not oftentimes something that we talk about.

And so why is there a widespread silence on the issue?

What do you, why do you think that is?

- Well, first of all, it's uncomfortable.

You know, the reality of many things, sometimes people don't want to talk about.

We wanna sweep things under the rug.

We don't wanna look at what's really going on.

But what a lot of people don't realize is that, in the United States and Canada, First Nations Canada, Native American women are more than twice as likely to experience violence than any other demographic.

And, you know, very sad to say is the statistics say one in three Indigenous women is sexually assaulted during her life, and 67% or even up to 70, these assaults are perpetrated by non-Indigenous perpetrators.

But I can tell you, in my circles as a Native American journalist, someone who's interviewed a lot of people in the Indigenous community, I can say, I do not know of a Native woman who hasn't been a victim of assault or violence in my career.

And I've been doing this almost 20 years.

You know, I mean, you look at what's known as the Highway of Tears in Canada where 19 women have been killed on the Highway of Tears.

And the serial killer Robert Pickton, you know, there were about 49 women from the Vancouver area murdered by this guy, you know?

So it's, the statistics are disturbing and telling.

It's very sad.

- Yeah, and to have all of this research and these numbers, how is that possible?

- Well, you know, for the longest time it hasn't been possible.

And, you know, trying to find actual numbers or current statistics, you know, the latest statistic from Canada is 5,700, you know, missing and murdered Indigenous women.

But that's from a 2016 report, you know, that is six years ago.

And to find current statistics, a lot of times is a struggle, you know, especially as a journalist.

I have to dig quite a bit to find, you know, what happened, you know, most recently, and I'm resigned a lot of the times to cite old census statistics or old statistics from, you know, even a decade ago as the most current, you know, statistics on things have happened.

It's troubling.

- So would you say that our judicial systems are set up to help or protect Native communities?

- No, no, no, not at all.

I mean, don't get me wrong.

There are, you know, people in the law enforcement communities who do care.

And there are, you know, lawmakers and legislators who do care.

You know, I met with former Senator Heidi Hyde Camp in Washington, DC, who, you know, championed the, you know, Savannah's Act and Not Invisible Act in order to create, you know, government resources for tribal communities or tribal officers or those looking to find, you know, these cases of Indigenous missing and murdered women.

But that's not enough.

I mean, if you look at the court case from 1978, and a lot of people haven't heard this, but you can even look it up.

It's called "Oliphant versus the Suquamish Indian Tribe" in which a man was arrested on tribal territories.

And it's a Supreme Court case that decided that Indian courts have no criminal jurisdiction over non-Indians.

So you ask, well, wait, so Native Nations are supposed to be sovereign nations, you know, so why can't we have our own courts?

But the Supreme Court ruled that, well, it's not considered a group of your peers so you can't vote on or have a jury against someone who commits a crime on your land.

So this opened it up for anyone, "Hey, I could just go to a reservation land and commit a crime and not be busted for it?

I'm in."

So, thankfully the Violence Against Women Acts, you know, re-institution has stifled that in somewhat, and it's changed some things, but this jurisdiction or this lack of jurisdiction on Indian nations is really, really very troubling.

- Yeah, it is.

And I'm really trying to grapple with right now how the data is from like 2016 or that you're citing a case from 1978.

I was born in 1990, so it's like, why are we still using data that is that old when we're having this topic?

- Because people don't wanna cover it.

People don't wanna look into it.

That cause a lot of work.

And, you know, when we do work or when we get grants or when we do things or we do research, it's about what is most interesting to the public.

And the public doesn't wanna know about these things.

You know, it's just a sad truth to the existence or non-existence of statistics for Native American and First Nations people.

It's something I struggle with, you know, have been struggling with for decades as a journalist.

You know, I'm always like, well, where's the statistics?

And I have to do my own research.

I have to find my own stuff, and it's not easy.

- Yeah, so maybe, can you tell us more about the red hand?

Like what does that paint represent, and how does it tie into the Native culture?

- Yeah, sure.

Well, you know, when we say Native culture, and that's a good question, thank you for asking.

When we say Native culture, we have to keep in mind there's over 572 or 574 federally recognized tribes in the United States.

And that number is continuing to increase.

And that's not including the state-recognized tribes.

That's also not including the completely unwritten history of Black Indians, which were, or in my opinion, some of the biggest unwritten history in the United States.

So you take about all these cultures and all these Native cultures, and myself as a Mohawk, I can't speak for every Native person, you know what I'm saying?

I can speak for myself or share stories of people who I've spoken with.

But the red hand, in many tribes, red paint usually signifies having been in battle or battle-oriented paint or, you know, a successful battle.

Or some tribes, tribal members, if they wear red feathers, it shows they've been wounded in battle, or it does show, you know, it can show a killing.

In this particular case, the red hand print, I look at it as, and I know some would agree with me, and someone would look at it in different ways, is the red hand, in my view, represents someone who has killed an Indigenous woman.

And to place that hand, to think of, there's a bloody hand that is, you know, convicted of murder or has committed a murder, and then still uses that bloody hand to cover someone's mouth to stop further information from coming out.

So if you think about it, it's a pretty intense, pretty poignant, you know, statement, is that the bloody hand of someone who's killed is still trying to cover up any voices from getting out.

So it's pretty intense, in my view.

- Yeah, it is.

Do you think that there are stereotypes that perpetuate this violence against Native people in the United States?

- I think so.

Yeah, I do.

I do, I think so.

You know, because, if you look at Native stereotypes, what does it do?

Any kind of stereotype for any race, in my view, reduces the humanity of that race.

If you make someone a cartoon, it takes away their humanity.

It takes away what this person really is.

If you see a cartoon that's making fun of someone, let's say, for example, the Cleveland Indians chief Wahoo, you know, the most horrendous caricature of a Native person ever.

And if you look at that guy, you don't think of that weird cartoon character as having a wife and kids or grandchildren.

You know, you don't think of them as having a job or working hard to take care of their family.

You see a cartoon.

You don't see the humanity in that person.

So unfortunately, there's gonna be some people who see these stereotypes, you know, take that to heart, don't look at someone as a person, and therefore, what's the big deal in killing someone who's just a cartoon?

So I think it does tremendous damage, horrible damage.

And it certainly dismantles culture.

- Yeah, so in thinking about those stereotypes, there's this new show about missing/murdered and Indigenous awareness called the "Alaska Daily."

- What's the story?

- Cold case in Mead, a dead woman named Gloria Nunmack.

- Another missing/murdered.

Why?

- Why?

- Yeah, even if we figure out what happened, no one's gonna do anything about it, not the cops, not the courts, not the politicians.

- Then we report on that.

- You mean that, you'll take it all the way?

- I do.

Her death is obviously part of a pattern.

We need to prove it, and we need to show who's to blame.

- Great, so why not just give the whole story to me?

- For starters, it's my story.

- Do you know anything about Alaska?

- That's why it's called investigative reporting.

- Is that why you're here?

To teach us about reporting?

- She always like this?

- Yes.

Roz, you wanted the State House, you got State House.

- That's before I knew that doing this story right was an option.

- Fine, but Eileen is here now, and I want you both on it together, okay?

- Would you say, in your opinion, this show is bringing awareness, or would you say is glamorizing the trauma of real Native families?

- I definitely think it's bringing some awareness, and I wouldn't say it's so much glamorizing the trauma of missing and murder Indigenous women.

You know, I interviewed Grace Dove who is the Indigenous actress on the show who plays alongside Hillary Swank who is the character that's like this tough, you know, New York journalist who flies into the Alaska Daily and, you know, shows everybody how to do it right.

So, you know, I was teasing with Grace Dove during the interview.

I said, "Are you gonna say white savior at any point?"

We kind of chuckled about it, so, you know?

I understand what ABC's doing in the sense that, you know, they're bringing a well-known actor into this show.

You know, Hillary Swank's definitely a well-known actor, but she is kind of showing everybody how to do things.

So the one thing that I felt was good about the show is that they bring Grace Dove, who plays Roz, in as a collaborator, they're working together.

So there's certain things that Roz could do in the community that Hillary would not be able to do, or Eileen, rather, I should say.

And it tends to work together because Roz is able to speak with a mother of a woman who is missing/murdered.

And so I feel as though ABC's doing the best they can, you know, by introducing a new actor to this series anyways, meaning Grace Dove.

But one thing that I did appreciate that I see ABC do is that they created a website on their site, abc.com/mmiw where they talk about missing and murdered Indigenous women.

And they also have the red hand print on the screen and statistics about missing and murdered Indigenous women.

So that's nice to see.

Is it perfect?

You know, I don't think it's perfect, but I think they're doing the best they can.

- Yeah, and do they actually talk about white saviorism at all?

I know you joked about it, but do they explicitly say it?

- I wonder if it's coming.

You know, it might, because I will say that Grace Dove's character, Roz, is kind of in your face, like, "Well, you know, don't tell me what to do.

You don't understand this town like I do, Eileen," And, you know, so there are some intense moments, and Roz isn't a shrinking violet, which is good to see.

- Yeah, and do you think there is a connection between the colonization of the United States and the silencing or the lack of awareness of missing/murdered in Indigenous women?

- Yes, absolutely.

You know, in my view, and these are my words, but colonization is like a terribly misinformed teacher that keeps trying to teach from the wrong history book.

And when we are taught in history that Native people are just worthless savages, I mean, look at the Declaration of Independence.

How am I referred to in the Declaration of Independence?

I'm a merciless Indian savage.

It says it in the Declaration of Independence, "merciless Indian savages."

So who can be surprised when some of our children listen to what's being taught?

You know, I think to answer your question, yes.

- I think for me, what's coming up right now is around, I know black transgender women, they are oftentimes silenced, and their murders are completely disregarded.

Do you see the same thing or is there any data out there around Indigenous trans women?

- Yes.

Sadly, I don't have the statistics in front of me, you know, but I have, you know, researched this quite a bit.

I don't know the exact numbers and things, but it's a lot.

And it's troubling, and it's sad, you know?

And as far as I'm concerned, a trans woman is a woman to me.

I don't discriminate on that.

If you are a woman, you are a woman as far as I'm concerned, you know?

And when I say missing and murdered Indigenous women, you know, I include trans women in there.

And they are just as targeted, if not more.

And I know of some family members that we spoke to, you know, my family and have discovered quite a few that were, you know, terribly targeted and murdered, kidnapped.

There's a family member who we talked to whose family was, you know, literally cutting into pieces.

And, you know, they didn't get the whole body back.

It's just, it's just terrible.

One of the most upsetting things that happened, you know, my wife and I were talking about this, and there's an Indigenous man whose daughter was kidnapped and killed, and the perpetrator accidentally put her into a recycling bin which did not get thrown away right away.

- Wow.

- Sounds horrifying.

Right?

- Yeah.

- The father said, I am so grateful that he put her into the recycling bin so that we were able to recover her body.

If he would've put her in the other one, we wouldn't have.

And I was like, in what world does someone's daughter being put into a recycling bin a place to be grateful?

- Yep.

- You know?

But that's what he said.

And it just, it affected me so deeply, and this is the types of things that are happening.

It's awful.

- Yeah, it's like you're choosing between the greater evil of which one would you rather have.

- That's exactly right.

To choose between the greater evil is a terrible place to be.

I'm just like, you know?

And my heart for this family, you know?

And I really do think about this every day.

Can you imagine, and I don't even want to do this at all, but can you imagine one of your closest loved ones, you go home, and they're gone, and you never know what happens to 'em for the rest of your life, never know.

I can't even, I can't even fathom that.

But there's families who deal with this every day.

- What are some things that we could do to hold systems accountable to find women and to stop this type of violence?

- Advocate the importance of using social media.

It's a lot more powerful than people realize.

Using the #MMIW.

Or, you know, copying your local legislators on certain topics that you feel important about.

There's a district attorney, Trent Shores, who works diligently, you know, the past few years to try and increase exposure or ways for agencies that share information to literally look up on these kiosks that they would bring to tribal nations and say, "Look, if you're looking for a woman, or if you're looking for a perpetrator, we're going to compile all the information in one place."

And, you know, Trent Shores really work to have this done, and I know that they're still continuing to work on these things, but I think collaboration between organizations is key.

Social media is key.

And, you know, some of these grassroots efforts, don't ever undermine how powerful they can be.

You know, I think these are the ways that we really can, you know, feel empowered and do things that we feel as though are gonna make a difference.

Because they do, no matter how small.

- I think we oftentimes underestimate the micro level change and how that feeds into the macro.

And speaking of micro/macro, in our everyday lives, how can we like squash those microaggressions, micro insults the against the Native community?

- If we see it happen, you know, Indigenous people or, you know, people of color or people who are getting attacked don't always have to face it alone, folks, you know?

You put your energy out there and say, "I'm sorry, what happened to your people."

I hear this all the time, and I don't need that, you know?

What happened, happened in the past, you didn't do it.

But I sure wouldn't mind people coming in here and there and saying, "Hey, knock it off.

You know, leave this dude alone."

I'm not saying that it's gonna solve it, but it's nice to know that occasionally someone's on my side.

It feels good, you know?

And if at least you can offer something like, "Hey, I'm on your side," here and there, at least they're not completely getting bamboozled or, you know, squashed by a bunch of people who are out to get 'em.

You know, it's nice to know that, hey, you know what?

Maybe there's some sides against me, but if there's also some voices for me too.

- Mm-hmm, and that's the thing about microaggressions is that you don't oftentimes know that you're being micro aggressed until like later.

You're like, wait, did that person just say that to me?

Am I feeling those feelings correctly?

And because we're so used to like oppressing the feelings that we have, we typically don't say anything if it's happening because we're not aware that it's happening.

And so to have those other people step up for us, I think that's a very big thing to put on, you know?

- Or turning your head from the left to the right in the middle of the night on your pillow and going, hey, wait a minute.

- Right, like, let me think back to that conversation.

- Did he say?

(laughs) - Mm-hmm.

- Been there, been there too much, yeah.

- Yeah, is there anything, Vincent, that I haven't asked you that you would love our viewers to know?

- I think you asked some really great questions, and I really appreciate it.

I think a great thing people can do is literally type in the #MMIW on social media and check out some of the things you see or check out some of the missing posters or check out, make it real for yourself, you know?

I think it was Nietzsche that said, "It is good to think upon those things that sometimes evade us," and I'm not saying that correctly, but things you don't often think about, it's nice to kind of look into, you know?

- Yeah, and my mind keeps going back to the research that is available, the data.

As a journalist, what are some things that we can do in terms of like finding sources that are credible?

Where should we be looking?

- Mm-hmm.

Well, I think that there's a great report that I can share with you from a colleague of mine, Lisa Elwood, who wrote a story on MMIW, "On Both Sides of Turtle Island," as an excellent report.

I've done quite a bit of, you know, research and reporting on MMIW myself, met with, you know, leaders in Washington DC, and, you know, watched quite a bit of legislation go through, you know, thankfully.

- Mm-hmm.

Well, thank you, Vincent.

This has been a very enlightening conversation, and I know you have so much more to share.

So how can we stay in touch or follow you in your work?

- Okay, well, I have a little slide here I can click.

(both laugh) So I'm on social media @VinceSchilling, you know?

And I've worked hard to make sure everything said Vince Schilling.

Boy, I had to work.

- [Kiara] That's definitely hard.

- But I'm very active on Twitter @VinceSchilling, and TikToks have been doing well.

Boy, you know what, I'll tell you it, I'm watching the world of TikTok just blow up, and I strongly advocate for anyone who has a voice out there, it's a heck of a platform.

So all these platforms are good platforms for social media.

- You may just be convincing.

- Reach out to me @VinceSchilling.

- I'm jealous.

I could not get my name without an underscore or a period so I'm gonna have to do a better job.

Maybe I should download TikTok.

- Yeah, I got very lucky.

I got very lucky.

(laughs) - (laughs) Well, thank you so much, Vincent.

We have run out of time, and so I just wanna thank you again for having this conversation with us.

You can watch past episodes anytime on watch.ripbs.org and be sure to follow us on Facebook and Twitter for the latest updates.

Thank you.

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