- [Narrator] Production and distribution of City Club forums and ideas stream public media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.

(upbeat inspirational music) (people chattering) (bell ringing) - Good afternoon and welcome to the City Club of Cleveland, where we are devoted to conversations of consequence that help democracy thrive.

I'm Cynthia Connelly, director of programming here and proud member.

It's great to be here introducing today's forum, Misunderstanding Critical Race Theory.

Over the last year, a controversy over critical race theory or CRT has emerged almost out of nowhere.

It came up twice in recent months on this stage.

Our Law Day speaker Peter Kirsanow of the United States Commission on Civil Rights, brought it up in his address as a threat to the future of the nation.

And it came up again last week.

Republican candidate for governor Jim Renacci told the audience it should be removed from the state's K through 12 education standards.

But the rhetoric around CRT has been heating up for months.

And now two bills are circulating through the Ohio State House, attempting to limit discussion on race in the classroom.

Local school boards are grappling with feedback from both sides of the aisle, but what exactly is critical race theory and what is it not?

And how has this framework of analysis become the new punching bag in our nation's culture wars?

To shed some light on all of this, we are joined today by Dr. Hassan Kwame Jeffries, associate professor of history at the Ohio State University.

Dr. Jeffries has worked on several public history projects.

From 2010 to 2014, he was the lead historian and primary script writer for the $27 million renovation of the National Civil Rights Museum at the Lorraine Hotel in Memphis, Tennessee.

It's the site of the assassination of Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

He hosts the podcast, teaching hard history, American Slavery, a production of the Southern Poverty Law Center's Teaching Tolerance Project.

Dr. Jeffries has also contributed to several documentary film projects, including the Emmy Nominated PBS documentary, Black America, since MLK.

He was a featured on-camera scholar.

A quick heads up, if you're listening on WCPN, we anticipate that we will be preempted by president Biden, who is expected to address the nation at one o'clock.

Our live stream is always available to you at thecityclub.org.

And if you'd like to join the conversation, text your question to 330-541-5794, that's 330-541-5794, And our staff will try to work it into the program.

You can also tweet it @thecityclub.

Esteemed guests, members and friends of the City Club of Cleveland, please join me in welcoming Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries.

(people clapping) - Well, thank you very much for the warm words of introduction and most especially for the invitation to join you all here this afternoon.

It is great to be in person to be able to share some thoughts and ideas in person, especially in this August setting and to be able to share some thoughts and ideas around this important, important topic.

I'm just gonna dive right in.

Keep my eye on the clock.

I told Biden's people hold on, but you know, it is what it is.

So what is critical race theory?

It's a 40 year old framework designed to help academics make sense of America.

40 year old framework designed to help academics make sense of America.

It originated with a group of brilliant black legal scholars, like Kimberlé Crenshaw and the late Derrick Bell, and has been refined over the years by scholars, in other disciplines.

The framework centers on the idea that racism is systemic, that racism is deeply embedded in the legal systems and economic structures of American society and that these systems and structures reproduce and produce racial inequality.

To put it in its simplest terms in order to make sense of America in the past as well as in the present, you have to take seriously the role of race and racism in society.

That's it.

It ain't that complicated.

In order to make sense of the American past and the present you have to take seriously, the role of race and racism in society.

You can't understand slavery without understanding the centrality of race and racism.

You can't understand Jim Crow without understanding the role of race and racism in American society.

You can't understand America's forward march towards democracy, the expansion of the vote, without understanding the role of race and racism.

It ain't that complicated.

Take seriously the role of race and racism in American society.

When we break down critical race theory it really has just two components, two core ideas.

The first is that race isn't real.

Race, critical race theory, race isn't real.

Biologically race is meaningless.

Human Genome Project.

There is no substantial genetic difference between anybody sitting in this room.

Race itself is biologically meaningless.

Racism real.

But at the same time, race is socially meaningful.

And this is where it gets complicated.

Because if race isn't real then we shouldn't pay attention to it.

But if race is socially meaningful, which it is, something that was literally created in Western Europe and ideas some 600 years ago, but that has shaped the contours of global life, privileging some and providing justification for the oppression of others for the last 600 years.

So while race itself is biologically meaningless, we have to take it seriously because it's socially meaningful.

And at the same time, it's also culturally relevant because in the American context, we use race as a stand-in for cultural ancestry and cultural heritage.

So when you see me as an African-American, you're also seeing my grandparents and my great-grandparents.

You're seeing the cultural heritage that I have inherited.

And because race is socially meaningful and because race is culturally relevant, stand-in for cultural heritage and cultural ancestry, we have to avoid the colorblind trap.

We can't pretend as though we don't see race.

Child psychologists tell us that children as young infants, as young as three months old, are able to distinguish the race of the people they see based upon the cues and clues of their caregivers.

And by the time our children are in kindergarten in the first grade, they're already associating certain beliefs and stereotypes with people based upon race, overwhelmingly assuming that whiteness is positive and that anything associated with blackness is negative.

White children by the first grade are showing a preference by about 80% for whiteness, a preference for whiteness and black children 60% preference for whiteness.

This is something that impacts us all.

So we can't pretend as though we don't see race, but that's what we say to ourselves to make us feel comfortable.

I don't see race.

You say that to me, what you just did was erase me.

So we have to avoid the colorblind trap.

That's what critical race theory says.

Avoid the colorblind trap.

And at the same time, while it's saying that race isn't real, critical race theory reminds us that racism is real.

That racism manifest itself in two ways, personal prejudice, which we can see.

We saw a lot better before four years ago, but we can still see it.

It manifests itself in these personal ways, but then also manifests itself in these institutional and structural ways.

Sometimes it is manifested in conscious ways, conscious bias, explicit bias.

Sometimes it's implicit.

And this is where people get hung up on, right?

Because what critical race theory tells us is we got to dispense with the bad actor theory of racism, that although everything that is born of racism is born of one or two bad actors.

The bad apple.

We want to look at the apples on the ground and never look up at the tree.

And here's the problem with that.

One, it ignores the institution.

It ignores the systemic, ignores the systems and structures, but it also messes up what the possible solutions are.

Because if the problem is just a bad actor, then the solution to racism and inequality is real simple.

Just get rid of the actor.

But we saw in Birmingham, Alabama, the problem wasn't just a racist sheriff, Bull Connor.

Because as soon as you removed him, you still had racism.

Imagine that!

So critical race theory is like, look, we have to take this stuff seriously.

Why?

Because it is embedded in our systems and structures.

If we could, if someone could snap his or her fingers today and erase any racial prejudice that existed in our hearts and minds tomorrow, you would still have racial inequality the day after.

And that's what critical race theory says, is that we got to understand why that is the case.

So that's what critical race theory is.

Then what isn't it?

Because there are so many misconceptions circulating, purposeful disinformation.

So just a few things, one, critical race theory ain't Marxism.

Nobody who is embracing or using critical race theory as a way of understanding the world is saying, let's get rid of capitalism in favor of communism.

That's not a conversation that's happening.

The conversation that is happening is we have to be clear about who benefits from capitalism and who was hurt from capitalism.

That's fundamentally different than pushing or assuming, Marxism.

Critical race theory is not suggesting that white people are inherently evil.

Not saying that people believe, listen, critical race theory is not saying that people believe in racism because they are born.

It's saying that people believe in racism because they are born in America.

They are born into a society that has embraced and perpetuated these ideas and notions of white supremacy.

That's two different things because if you're proposing that it's inherently that somehow racism, racial prejudice is inherent to birth, then there's nothing you can do about it.

To me, that's terrible.

But we know this is something that literally people created 600 years ago.

So if it didn't exist before it doesn't have to exist, going forward.

Critical race theory is not suggesting that black, now this is one of my favorite ones, that somehow those who espuse critical race theory was suggesting that all black people are hopelessly oppressed victims and that success is beyond their/our reach.

So suddenly those who are opposed to anti-racist teaching are doing it in the best interest of black folk.

And that's a new one to me.

What critical race theory is suggesting is that the obstacles to success have been placed in front of black folk, simply because they're black.

Now, this is usually when you know, here in the great state of Ohio, somebody from Southeast Ohio would jump up.

Good white person from Southeast Ohio would jump up.

Ah, I know what you're talking about.

You're talking about white privilege and I don't have white privilege.

I grew up poor in Southeast Ohio.

We didn't even have well water.

We used to drink oil.

(audience laughs) And I was like, what critical race theory tells us is that white privilege is real, but it's called white privilege.

It's not called white guarantee.

You're not guaranteed to be successful in America because you're white.

You just have the privilege of not having to deal with certain obstacles because you're black or brown.

That's the fundamental difference.

Don't get mad at me cause you couldn't capitalize on your whiteness.

(audience laughs) That's not on us, NAACP.

(audience laughs) And critical race theory is also not suggesting that progress hasn't happened.

Progress is real.

It's just saying that in order to continue to make progress, we have to understand the context in which we have made progress in the past.

So if we are being honest with ourselves, you have to acknowledge that these are actually reasonable points, if not essential points for understanding America's past and present.

And that these are points that are rooted in historical reality.

We're not dealing with fiction with dealing with facts.

Those scholars who embrace critical race theory, I'm making stuff up.

And they have historical evidence on their side.

As a teacher, I deal with primary sources.

Let's go to the evidence, the evidence about America's past and present, but also the evidence of what is being taught and what's not being taught in America's schools.

So why the hysteria then?

Why the hysteria around critical race theory?

Because this is a politically manufactured crisis.

According to the Brookings Institute, Fox News has mentioned critical race theory, 1300 times in it's programming over the last four months.

That's 10 times a day.

I've been teaching at the Ohio State University, Go Buckeyes, for the last 20, almost 20 years.

I haven't said critical race theory that many times over that entire period.

So why is this a critically manual?

How has this become a politically manufactured crisis?

Let's be clear.

That this has been manufactured by Republican politicians in a response to the racial reckoning of the summer of 2020.

That when we think back to what we saw last summer, which was the largest mass mobilization of people in American history over the course of between June and July, you had some 30 million people take to the streets of America and the largest public protest in American history.

The largest protest during the civil rights movement was the March on Washington.

That had 250,000 people for one afternoon.

We're talking about 30 million people for a couple months.

And these folk who were taking to the streets, mostly young people, weren't just demanding and they were, but they weren't just demanding justice for the victims of police violence.

They were also demanding an end to systemic racism.

And see, we hadn't heard that before.

Not in that sort of public way.

Now certainly the black power movement was about dealing with institutions and structures, right?

So we gotta move away from just the civil rights era and talk about black power, but this is something new that black folk had been calling for.

But to see it being echoed, not only in the cities of America, but also in the suburbs, like, wait, we gotta do something with systemic racism.

This then becomes the response because what's at the heart of the anti critical race theory calls is this idea that systemic racism, that racism in general, but systemic racism in particular, doesn't exist.

It's not real.

And if you are an elected official and you can convince people that systemic racism isn't real, guess what you don't have to do?

You don't have to address it.

So there is, there is a political angle to this that frees up those who don't want to deal with actually addressing the problems that confront the status quo today.

That make up the status quo today.

But it's more than that.

The political angle is important and it's more than as well because we also see that the hysteria around critical race theory is, is being ginned up by Republican/conservative operatives.

Why?

Because they are afraid of losing those white voters who were most animated by the racism of Donald Trump.

I don't know if y'all heard me.

Afraid of losing those white voters who were most animated by the racism of Donald Trump because they understand and Donald Trump understood this.

He may not have understood what, let me stop.

That racism is the most powerful political organizing tool in American history, the most powerful political organizing tool in American history.

And so this hysteria around critical race theory and what it isn't is really appealing to the racism of those who have formed this core part of that political party.

And this isn't anything new.

This is Nixon's Southern strategy to win back the White House after disaffected Democrats who were segregationist begin to turn away from the democratic party because they're embracing legislation that promotes civil rights.

But then so it's an extension.

So we we've seen this before, but now it gets mixed up into the culture wars, which have always turned around race in some way, shape or form.

And so we look back most recently, you go back to the seventies and it's culture was centered around the threat to taking your unborn.

Anti-abortion.

That's what conservatives were pitching.

And then the 1980s, it's the NRA.

They were coming for your unborn, now they're coming for your guns and you move a little forward through time.

In the early 2000's, they were first coming for your unborn.

Then they were coming for your guns.

Now they're coming for your Bible.

It's the whole gay marriage thing, we remember that 2004.

And now we went from Bibles and guns and the unborn to what is this?

What's at the heart of this critical race theory history?

Why is it animating those who aren't engaged, typically engaged in politics?

Because they're saying that they're coming for your children.

That's what this is.

That's why people are getting, are so afraid and rightly so, like don't come for my children.

I get mad when you do that.

I get that.

But if nobody coming for your children, sometimes, I love my white parents, sometimes, you know, I love my white parents, I mean, I hate to break that news to you.

I teach them at Ohio state.

They're very good students.

Ain't nothing magical about them.

Other than the ability of white children attract public resources, wherever they go.

And so when you begin to frame it that way, you can see it becomes a real threat.

That parents are willing to get mobilized around.

And especially when you start pushing the disinformation.

Coming for your children.

And that is what is underlying.

That's why it resonates.

And they're coming in a particular way, right?

And this is the education component of it.

And this is why it makes it so serious because this isn't just politics.

This is about what we teach our children.

And why does that connection between what we teach our children and they're coming for your children actually resonates so well with those who are anybody'll buy this.

Because we as a nation actually hate history.

We hate history.

What we love is nostalgia.

We hate history, but we love nostalgia.

And we certainly don't want to deal with hard, what I call hard history.

Those aspects of the past that make us uncomfortable in the present.

We don't want to deal with that.

We want to deal with the Disney version of history, where all the enemies are clear and everything gets better within 90 minutes.

We don't want to deal with those aspects of the past that make us uncomfortable in the present.

And so you combine that with this idea that we're coming for your children, then you see what we see at these school boards here in Ohio and across the country.

So we have to take this full outrage seriously because it isn't just legislation.

It isn't just trying to gin up votes.

It is in fact becoming legislation.

It was one thing when Arkansas Senator Tom Cotton speaking in the Florida Senate talks about slavery was just a necessary evil and all these other things.

I mean, I was like, I thought we were over the antebellum justifications for the institution of slavery, but I guess not, but that education decisions are made locally.

And so when we begin to see this moving out of the realm of congressional speak and now legislation being passed, some 20 bills in state legislatures across the country or eight being passed already, some 20 that are on the books, including here in Ohio with Bouse Bill 322 and House Bill 327.

Now let's be clear about what this is, and this is why this is dangerous because now you're talking about messing with kids' minds.

Now you're talking, I was pointing out earlier.

Now we're talking about not actually teaching the truth.

And how was that the case?

How was that the case?

And we gotta be careful about understanding how to legislation is and how it's framed because none of these bills actually mentioned critical race theory.

They don't.

They talk about specified concepts and divisive concepts.

Specified concepts and divisive concepts.

And what are these?

That are now associated with this idea of critical race theory, which I just said, just take race and racism seriously.

What are these divisive concepts that we have to make sure aren't being taught in schools?

One, that one race is inherently superior to another race.

That an individual is inherently racist, you're not suppose to teach this, or oppressive whether consciously or unconsciously or that an individual should be discriminated against, should be discriminated against because of their race.

Like these are the concepts that are being pushed by those who believe in critical race theory.

And we have to prevent them from being taught in a classroom.

Well, guess what?

Ain't none of that being taught.

Nowhere, nobody.

And if you think it is, show me the evidence.

So now we're creating a bill to deal with an issue that doesn't exist.

And you say, well, if it doesn't exist, then it's not a problem.

Then let the bill pass.

But hold on because there's more.

What then are they asking teachers to teach?

In the same bill House 322, that teachers then have to teach that the advent of slavery in the United States constituted or rather that the advent of slavery in the United States did not constitute the true founding of the United States.

This is the hang up on the 1619 project.

And all of 1619 project.

If you can do some math, it was like, it's 400 years after slavery began in the United States.

I think we should pay attention to it.

That's the 1619 project for those who haven't read it.

That's it.

Not saying that this is the beginning point of the nation, but saying that you can't separate capitalism and racism, which is a reason why we have slavery.

That that in fact represents the double helix of America's DNA from the beginning, when this nation had choices and could choose not to do what other nations were doing as colonies and chose to go down this path.

Nobody's silly enough to say that this is the beginning, but we are serious enough to say that you can't understand 1776, unless you understand 1619.

The beginning and then what comes after.

And also again, so you say, oh, essentially tell teachers, don't teach about slavery the way it happened and the way it has informed, informed America's evolution over time.

And at the same time, that if you're going to teach about American values, you have to teach that slavery and racism, or you can't teach that slavery and racism are anything other than deviations from the authentic founding principles of liberty and equality.

That you could talk about it, but you can talk about it something that's over there, that it was an unfortunate hiccup.

That's not America.

James Madison, the fourth president of the United States, the architect of the Bill of Rights enslaved over 100 people over the course of his lifetime.

He never freed a single soul.

He was a third generation enslaver.

Third generation.

That means between his grandfather, his father and himself, they held six generations of people in bondage.

Buying and selling people.

The only way that you were able to gain your freedom, if you were an African-American man, woman or child on the slave labor camp of James Madison is if you died, he sold you away or you ran away.

And so you want to talk about the Constitution and not talk about slavery.

That's treating James Madison as an enslaver, like he was an Uber driver.

It was just some side hustle.

This was central to who he was.

Just as slavery was central to who we were and continues to inform who we are.

And then lastly, HB 327.

I'll wrap up now.

It's requiring to the Department of Education to withhold funding, would require the Department of Education to withhold funding from a district or school until it fell into compliance, fell into compliance.

And so here you have the financial disincentive, but even more so than what the bills would do if enacted is what they have already done, because they have been proposed.

And that is create a chilling effect on teachers K through 12, a silencing effect on teachers K through 12.

You can't mess with me, I got tenure.

I'm going to speak truth, no matter what, but the kids, the teachers were like, wait a minute, I need to talk about this.

But I'm being told I can't.

I can't talk seriously about race or racism.

I can't talk about current events.

A bill coming out of the Senate in Texas, we thought we were bad, a bill coming out of the senate in Texas essentially has wiped out saying that you can't teach Martin Luther King's I have a dream speech because it talks about reparations.

And you can't teach what is arguably the most important piece of literature in the 20th century, which was King's letter from Birmingham jail.

Now, if you're not teaching King, I don't know what you're teaching.

Especially the ways in which we've watered down King over the years.

He was a safe negro, you can't even teach safe negros anymore.

Forget about black power.

Forget about abolitionists.

Forget about the black folk who rebelled against the institution of slavery.

So the consequences are very high because in the end, in the end, what we actually want to do and critical race, one, it's not being taught, obviously K through 12, but just talking about race and racism is so important.

Teaching is so important for our youngest learners on up, because it's helping them understand.

And that's what we want to do as teachers.

We want our students to understand the present, understand the world in which they live.

And they can only do that if they understand the past.

And you cannot understand the past in America, if you don't understand the centrality of race and racism in American history.

And in the end, it's not about blaming anybody for slavery who's living now.

blaming anybody for Jim Crow, who's living now.

Certainly not shaming our children, but it is about preparing them to inherit the world that we're leaving them.

To inherit the mess that we're leaving them.

To prepare them to address the issues that we have left unaddressed.

And they can only do that adequately if we teach history honestly.

Thank you very much.

(audience applauds) - Today at the City Club we're listening to a forum talking about critical race theory, specifically what it is and what it is not.

Onstage is Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries associate professor of history at the Ohio State University.

We are about to begin the audience Q&A.

We welcome questions from everyone.

City Club members, guests, students, and those of you joining us via our live stream or the radio broadcast on 90.3 Ideastream Public Media.

Now, if you have a question here in the audience, our Q&A will look a little different than we saw each other last back in March of 2020.

We ask that you first raise your hand to be acknowledged.

Please wait in your seat until a city club staffer motions you over to one of the two designated mic stands to ask your question.

If you're unable to walk to the microphone, a City Club staffer will come to you.

As usual, if you'd like to Tweet a question, please tweet it @thecityclub.

And you can also text them to 330-541-5794. that's 330-541-5794.

And our staff will try to work it into the program.

Supervising the microphones today, are content and programming coordinator, Bliss Davis, and member and outreach manager, Tiffany France.

May we have the first question, please?

- It's fascinating, what you said.

My question is how much is that has to do with colonialism because I come originally from Pakistan and that's the same thought process about the white being better than, and that was all the colonial history and that has been perpetuated around the world.

So what did that have on American society because of the British.

- Thank you very much.

- Yeah, the British, they're problematic.

We have to understand that white supremacy and racism is a global phenomenon.

That the color line is a global phenomenon.

It stretches around the world and has done so for, for centuries now.

And that, so what we're facing in New York, in New York, that's the Brooklyn in me coming, what we're facing in America is not necessarily unique to America, but the context is different.

And so, yes, this is an extension.

America is born of colonialism, but then it branches off in its own direction.

And so one of the things that critical race theory actually says, again, this high level of analysis, we're not talking about this with kindergartners, right?

We're talking about fairness and equality in the light, but high level analysis is like, you have to put in conversation, what's happening in America and what's happening in the colonial world with decolonization and colonization.

This is all together.

America has his own colonial history in the Philippines.

And we talk about Haiti, things going on right now.

And we can only make sense of that if we put them in conversation.

So in that sense, we like to talk a lot about American exceptionalism, there's nothing exceptional about America's brand of racism in that it existed and the way in which it plays out and has impacted people in the nation and around the world.

But it does need to be in conversation because all of it is very much connected.

Thank you.

- Our next question comes from Twitter.

There are a lot of parents in Northeast, Ohio currently protesting the teaching of CRT in schools.

How would you respond to these parents?

- Well, I would say first, you could do a little homework.

Like I'm a teacher.

I give homework.

What are you actually protesting?

Like, just to be honest, like reflect, like don't get caught up in the misinformation.

Do your homework, like turn the channel.

Do your own homework.

Because if you do your homework, if you do a little research, you will realize that one, what you're saying and think is being taught in the classroom, isn't being taught.

And two, what you actually want to be taught, actually isn't being taught either.

Now, what you really want, if you're serious about having your children understand the world in which they live is you have to seriously engage these questions of race and racism.

But there's also I think and this may not be connected necessarily to that, those individual parents, but we also have to be clear that this isn't just something that bubbled up from the surface.

So there are parents who are genuinely concerned about what their children might be learning and made uncomfortable in the light, but you also have parents and some sort of political operatives if you will, who have been gunning for programming centered around diversity, equity and inclusion and that this is a back door to end all of that.

And so while some parents are just genuinely concerned and I'm sympathetic to that because there's been so much disinformation and misinformation, we do have to separate those out from those who are using this purposefully to undermine the good work of so many people to bring about a more equitable society.

- Hello, my name is Kayla.

I'm from CMSD school districts, and I'm in this big coalition under Meryl Johnson So my question is that, well, I know that besides misinformation, a lot of the problems that a lot of people aren't aware of bill's and critical race theory.

So how do we get the word out so that we can counteract this?

- That's a great question.

And I'm glad you're thinking about organizing because that's really what it's going to take, because what we've seen is a mobilization from those who are opposed to critical race theory.

And there has to be an equal and opposite mobilization for those who want history to be taught, honestly.

For those who want us to continue to make forward progress with ending and getting rid of systemic racism.

It's is not enough just to sit back and say, oh, this will blow over because it won't, that's not the way change happens.

Sometimes we get a little bit comfortable with the idea that the arc of the moral universe is long and it bends towards justice.

We stopped there.

That was one of King's favorite quotes.

Barack Obama had that woven into is rug in the oval office.

I don't think his predecessor left that rug there, but King will say the arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends towards justice, only if you exert a force necessary to pull it in that direction.

That left to his own devices, it will bend towards injustice and to those who are pulling it in that direction.

And so we can't be complacent.

We actually have to mobilize, you have to organize and it's tough.

And this is hard because in a way we've already lost ground or those who want to teach diversity equity, inclusion, teach honest history, we have already lost ground to the idea, to the language of critical race theory.

Already lost ground.

Because there's actually nothing wrong with critical race theory, but there's so much disinformation and misinformation.

You have people and school just does, well we don't teach it and that's it, but that's not an adequate response.

That's like when, when people used to say Barack Obama was a Muslim, that's a bad thing.

The proper response wasn't just, he's not a Muslim because then you see, well, yeah, there's a problem with being a Muslim.

It's the same thing here.

The proper response isn't just, that's actually not what's being taught, the proper response is, you know what?

Critical race theory is something that's being taught in law schools, but we need to be making sure our kids understand the role of racism in America.

But that becomes, that's not a sound bite.

That becomes harder to convey.

And that's why it takes a little bit more time to sit down and dialogue with people, not dismiss people, take them seriously and take their concerns seriously, if they are genuine, if they are genuine, but it's a challenge.

It's a challenge, but you have to organize and mobilize.

And I'm glad that as a student representing SPEAK and that's where it's going to come from, it wasn't us who were out there in the summer of 2020.

It was our kids.

It was our students.

And it's going to be them who are going to lead us out of this mess again.

- Hello, thank you very much for your, the information that you've provided us.

I'm pretty horrified by the proposed legislation that you discussed and I'm wondering how it would work itself out.

I'm also wondering about the rights we have under the first amendment in relation to that legislation, but who's the decision maker?

Will it be school boards?

And then if they make a decision, will there be litigation?

How do you see this being worked out if that legislation passes?

- I think that the technical legal term is, it's a hot mess.

Because it can't be worked out cleanly because there will be serious infringements on first amendment rights, not only of teachers, but then of students and young people.

Who decides?

In Tennessee, we see in the state of Tennessee?

All of this legislation is copycat legislation, by the way.

None of this stuff is original, right?

And it's all drawn initially.

Literally the language is drawn from the executive order that Donald Trump put in place signed in September of 2020, right?

All of this, which was, no federal governments and all, doing diversity equity inclusion.

All of this is copycat legislation based upon that.

And when we look at those states that have already enacted that legislation like Tennessee, essentially they said any person can file a complaint if they find that these divisive topics and subjects are being taught in school and then the school board or beginning for some with the principals, but then the school board is required to investigate.

You have some school districts that now have hundreds of complaints just from random parents.

Ain't got nothing better to do.

And so now what do you do with that?

And so, yes, it's a mess and it's gonna, and just logistically it's a mess.

And then also it's a mess in terms of the potential violations for the first amendment, freedom of speech, to say nothing about just teaching your kids stuff, that ain't true.

Purposefully.

And this is the other thing that we have to be very careful of because what this leads to, this slippery slope, and we're already sliding down it, leads to book bans.

And I'm not talk, there's a group out of Tennessee, it's been parents, been white women who have been leading this charge.

And among their books that they said is inappropriate, is The Picture Book written by Ruby Bridges.

Ruby Bridges at age six years old was the first child to desegregate schools in New Orleans, Louisiana.

Made famous in the minds of many by that Norman Rockwell photograph.

And these parents object to this Picture Book in the schools because they did not like the depiction of the crowds of white people who were jeering at this six year old child, trying to prevent her from going to school.

They didn't like that.

And so they're saying this book has to come out.

And so if you're in a district there a parent can file a complaint about that.

But what's the alternative?

What do you want?

To pretend that Meemaw wasn't there?

Trying to prevent a six year old to go to school.

Six year old black child.

So we have to, that's that hard history.

We want the nostalgia.

We don't want to deal with the truth of it, but our children, not just black children, all our children need to understand because, that's, we still live.

We're still going to segregated schools.

So what worked?

What didn't work?

How did we get here?

You can't understand that.

And one of the best ways, especially for our youngest learners, let's talk about Ruby Bridges experience.

So now you're pulling that out.

Teachers are afraid to share this information with them.

That to me is not just unfortunate.

That's criminal, that's criminal, That's educational malpractice and that's what they're asking us to do with this legislation.

So yes, the technical term, hot mess.

- I'm so glad you're here this afternoon.

My name is Meryl Johnson.

I'm a member of the State Board of Education district 11.

One of the things you didn't mention was substitute House Bill 327, which says that teachers who teach about race will have their licenses suspended or revoked.

And we're talking about livelihood here.

And so Randi Weingarten, who's the president of the American Federation of Teachers has said publicly, that they're putting more money into their legal defense because they have teacher's backs.

So my question is to you, how do you advise teachers?

- That is one, it's egregious to think that we're going to do that as a state.

And we've got to say weak, right?

Because this is still us.

That we would do that, that we will put teachers into this situation.

That is unfair.

That is unfortunate.

And we shouldn't allow it to happen.

I think for teachers though, they have to be very.

They have to navigate these waters in the moment.

There are some school districts where you have school boards and you have administrators who will not have the back of teachers who want to teach the truth.

That's just the reality.

And so for those teachers in those, and these are mostly white school districts, and for those teachers who are in those districts, it doesn't really make sense in the moment, right?

To fight in particular ways.

One of the things that we learned about the civil rights movement is that everybody should fight, but not everybody needs to fight the same way.

And so in those districts, you have to continue to teach.

But if, if somebody, if a parent comes at you, that's the Brooklyn, right?

If a parent comes at you, are you teaching us critical race theory?

I'm not teaching critical race theory 'cause they're not, but I'm gonna teach you about democracy.

I'm gonna teach about civil rights.

I am gonna teach you about civil liberties.

I am going to teach about civics and government.

And maybe if we had a better understanding of that, we wouldn't have had that attempted insurrection on January 6th.

So don't change up.

Don't stop teaching what you're teaching.

If what it is you're teaching is the truth.

And you're teaching it honestly.

Because we need you in the classroom.

But in those districts where there's a little bit more room.

In those districts where you have the building administrators and you have the school board that has your back, those are the districts where the teachers need to step up and speak out for those who are not in a position to do so.

To explain why teaching this history honestly is so critically important.

To get their students just as we saw, to speak up and say, look, this is what I need to learn.

We mess around.

I get the students at Ohio State.

Mess around and stop teaching them this stuff and continuing to not teach them this stuff.

Because when they come to the Ohio State University and they wind up in my class, they're in for a rude awakening.

It's like, this is what U.S. history it was all about?

This thing called lynching?

And black folk building institutions like historically black colleges.

And guess what?

This is what some parents are afraid of.

They're afraid of their kids being upset.

I said, oh, we don't want these kids to get uncomfortable, right?

Their kid.

You study American history, honestly, you will be upset.

Trigger warning.

It's rough.

And they will be upset and they will get mad.

They will get mad.

They go through the five stages of grief, they're in denial, then they're upset, then angry.

Then they start crying in my office.

And I keep tissues in there.

Nobody told me about this version of American history.

How come I never learned this?

And when they get mad, they don't get mad at me because I'm just sharing evidence.

Primary sources, let people speak in their own voice.

Here, read some Thomas Jefferson.

I don't gotta make it up.

Thomas Jefferson wouldn't shut up.

Notes on the state of Virginia, offering a scientific justification for racism.

Read this.

They don't get mad at me.

They get mad at the teachers who they had K through 12, who never shared this with them.

They get mad at their parents.

How come you never, how come we never talked about this?

So you don't want to be that teacher.

You don't want to be that parent when your child comes home, little Kylie, there is always a Kylie, little Kylie comes home and is like, how come you never told me about this?

Where do we stand on school segregation in 1960's, 1970's as a family?

It's a hard conversation.

But what we as teachers and educators have to do, and this is sort of our investment, All of us, whether you're white, black doesn't matter, is you have to share a little bit of yourself.

And by that, I mean, when talking about race and racism, unlike math and science, there's a lot of unlearning that has to be done before we can get to the real learning.

And rather than telling our children, no, we're not going to talk about it or pretend it doesn't exist, we need to engage in that process of learning with them and share with them.

You know what?

This is what I used to believe.

This is the language that I used to use until I learned differently, because then you're actually giving your children permission to unlearn some of the nonsense that they have learned.

And you're saying that this is a process that evolves over time.

That's what education oughta be.

And that's what we should be doing.

- Thank you so much.

Again, my name is Danielle Syd and my question is a lot of people used the term ally a lot last year.

And I think about it in the context of this conversation, where we think about Japanese interment camps, the Holocaust, all of these other significant issues that potentially align themselves with race and racism.

What do you think potentially happens if we do see critical race theory, these bills being passed, does it potentially lead us down the path of not teaching that?

And how do we encourage other folks that maybe not be the front of the attack to understand that they're potentially on the chopping block as well?

- No, that's great because all of this is connected.

It's all connected.

Because it may be questions of race as it relates specifically to the African-American experience that is galvanizing and animating people.

But under these bills, under these divisive concepts, you can't teach anything.

You can't talk about internment camps.

You can't have a serious conversation about the motivations behind the bombing of Hiroshima.

You can't have a serious conversation about the genocide of native people.

You can't.

Not if this stuff goes through.

And so this impacts everybody.

You can't have a serious conversation about white supremacy.

How you gonna talk about America and not talking about white supremacy?

And that's just not in the past.

We know in the present, mess around, let's go back to Kylie.

Mess around.

And not teach young Kylie about white supremacy.

And then don't get mad when she is recruited into a white nationalists organization.

And is storming the Capitol based upon a lie, that an election was stolen because black people voted in Atlanta.

So the consequences are real.

Like even it's not just about learning, it's about what is going to happen to people in the moment.

And that affects all of us, so not just people of color, but then also white folk and also all of the identities, right?

Because this isn't just about race.

As one of the critical race theory says, you gotta look at the intersections.

How does this play out with gender?

And so every, everyone will be negatively affected if we continue to go down this down this path.

(audience applauds) Thank you very much.

- Alright.

Today at the City Club, we have been listening to a forum on critical race theory, specifically what it is and what it is not featuring Dr. Hasan Kwame Jeffries, associate professor of history at the Ohio State University.

Today's forum is part of our education innovation series.

We welcome guests at tables hosted by the Cleveland NAACP, the Nordson Corporation Foundation, friends of Mark Ross and Honesty for Ohio Education.

We're happy to have you here.

Be sure to join us next Thursday, August 26, we are also in person welcoming Tom Mihaljevic, Chief Executive Officer and president of the Cleveland Clinic and Cliff Megerian Chief Executive Officer of University Hospitals.

They will be discussing how these two traditional competitors made the decision to come together and tackle COVID-19 and what can be replicated for future public health crises.

You can purchase tickets to this forum and learn more about our other forms by visiting cityclub.org.

That brings us to the end of today's forum.

Thank you, Dr. Jeffries and thank you members and friends of the City Club.

This forum is now adjourned.

(audience applauds) - [Narrator] For information on upcoming speakers or for podcasts of the City Club, go to city club.org.

(inspiring music) - [Narrator] Production and distribution of City Club forums and Ideastream Public Media are made possible by PNC and the United Black Fund of Greater Cleveland Incorporated.