THIS PROGRAM IS MADE BY MPT TO ENRICH ALL OF OUR DIVERSE COMMUNITIES AND IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE GENEROUS SUPPORT OF OUR MEMBERS.

THANK YOU.

LIVE FROM MARYLAND PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" WITH JEFF SALKIN.

♪♪] >> JEFF: GOOD EVENING AND WELCOME TO YOUR "DIRECT CONNECTION."

YOU MAY HAVE NOTICED IT HAS BEEN A COLD WINTER.

SINGLE DIGIT TEMPERATURES ON MULTIPLE DAYS AND WE'RE GOING TO BE REMINDED OF THIS COLD SPELL WHEN THE UTILITY BILLS ARRIVE THEY WILL BE THE HIGHEST EVER FOR MANY OF OUR VIEWS.

JOINING US TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS ABOUT THE RISING COST OF ENERGY, DAVID LAPP MARYLAND'S PEOPLE'S COUNSEL.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Jeff: FOR PEOPLE NOT FAMILIAR WITH THE OFFICE OF PEOPLE'S COUNSEL IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PEOPLE'S COURT.

>> WE ARE AN INDEPENDENT STATE AGENCY AND OUR JOB IS TO ADVOCATE FOR UTILITY CUSTOMERS BOTH AND STATE PROCEEDINGS AT THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION OF MARYLAND, WE ALSO ADVOCATE IN FEDERAL PROCEEDINGS FOR MARYLAND UTILITY CUSTOMERS.

>> Jeff: IT IS AN ENORMOUSLY COMPLEX AREA OF LAW.

THAT YOU DEAL IN.

BUT FOR THE PURPOSES OF OUR AUDIENCE, WHY ARE UTILITY BILLS GOING UP?

>> WELL, BILLS ARE GOING UP FOR A COMPLICATED SET OF REASONS.

BUT THE COLD WEATHER FOR ONE.

PEOPLE UTS MORE POWER YOUR BILLS ARE GOING TO GO UP BECAUSE YOU ARE USING MORE.

THEY ARE GOING UP BECAUSE OF RAPIDLY ESCALATING DISTRIBUTION RATES, THAT IS THE COST OF DELIVERING THE POWER OR GAS TO THE CUSTOMER.

THOSE ARE COSTS THAT MARYLAND UTILITIES ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR.

AND THEY'VE BEEN BUILDING A LOT OF INFRASTRUCTURE AND THOSE RATES HAVE BEEN GOING UP VERY FAST OVER THE LAST 10-15 YEARS.

THE GAS DELIVERRY RATES TRIPLED SINCE 2012.

THAT IS A HUGE INCREASE.

BG'S ELECTRIC DELIVERY COSTS ALMOST DOUBLED SINCE 2012.

THAT'S WHEN EXCELON ACQUIRED BG.

AND DELIVERY COSTS GONE UP SIGNIFICANTLY.

BUT WE ALSO SEE COSTS GOING UP JUST BECAUSE OF THE COST OF THE SUPPLY, THE SUPPLY COSTS THE ENERGY.

WE LIKE OUR ELECTRIC POWER IS MOSTLY THE PRICE IS SET BY GIGAWATTS POWER PLANTS.

SO WHEN THAT COMMODITY PRICE OF GAS GOES UP WE PAY MORE.

AND SOMETIMES COLD WEATHER THEY HAVE PROBLEMS GETTING THE GAS TO THE POWER PLANTS.

SO THAT GAS COMMODITY PRICE IS THAT WE CAN'T REALLY CONTROL IN THE STATE OF MARYLAND.

THAT IS SORT OF SUBJECT TO BIGGER ECONOMIC CONDITIONS AND -- >> Jeff: IT USED TO BE LONG AGO WE USED TO HAVE REGULATORY CONTROL OF IT.

>> , I THINK.

>> WELL, WE WERE STILL SUBJECT TO SORT OF THE VOLATILITY OF GAS COMMODITY PRICES.

WE SAW IT IN 2022, RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE WE SAW THAT COMMODITY PRICE GO UP.

AND THOSE SORT OF THINGS HAVE BEEN IN PLAY FOR A LOJT TIME.

LONG TIME.

GAS WAS MORE COSTLY IN 2008 AND 2007 THEN THERE WAS THE FRACKING BOOM, THAT BROUGHT THAT COMMODITY PRICE DOWN FOR A LONGTIME.

NOW IT'S SORT OF IN-BETWEEN IT IS ANOT SUPER HIGH BUT IT'S GROWN OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS.

>> Jeff: HOW DO THE RATES THAT MARYLANDERS PAY NOW COMPARE TO NEIGHBORING STATES AND WITHIN MARYLAND ARE THERE SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCES?

>> EVERY STATE HAS DIFFERENT REGULATION AND DIFFERENT UTILITIES.

BUT YOU CAN SEE THAT HERE IN MARYLAND, WE CAN COMPARE LIKE WASHINGTON GAS TO BALTIMORE GAS AND ELECTRIC.

THE GAS DISTRIBUTION CHARGES IN 2015, JUST ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO, WASHINGTON GAS AND BGE BOTH CHARGED ABOUT THE SAME 42 CENT ACE THERM TO DELIVER THAT GAS.

TODAY BGE CUSTOMERS ARE PAYING 97 CENTS A THERM BUT WASHINGTON GAS CUSTOMERS ARE PAYING 46.

>> Jeff: HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

I'M SURE THE OFFICE OF PEOPLE'S COUNSEL WAS OPPOSING EVERY STEP OF THE WAY DECISIONS BY THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION WHICH SETS THE RATES.

>> SO ALL THOSE DISTRIBUTION RATES THEY ARE APPROVED BY THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION.

A LOT OF THOSE INCREASES THAT LED TO THAT RAPID GROWTH IN BGE'S GAS DELIVERY RATES MANY WE'VE PUSHED BACK ON UNSUCCESSFULLY IN LARGE PART.

BUT THOSE ARE APPROVED BY THE COMMISSION.

SO BGE HAS BEEN INTO THE COMMISSION, I BELIEVE, ABOUT 10 TIMES SINCE 2012.

WASHINGTON GAS FEWER TIMES.

SO WASHINGTON GAS' RATES SINCE 2015 GONE UP 4 CENTS AND BGE'S HAVE GONE UP -- THEY'VE MORE THAN DOUBLED FROM 42 CENTS TO 97 CENTS.

>> Jeff: REGULATED UTILITIES ARE AN ODD BUSINESS WHERE THE MORE THEY SPEND, THE MORE THEY MAKE.

MOST BUSINESSES YOU WANT TO KEEP YOUR EXPENSES DOWN.

IF YOU ARE A REGULATED UTILITY AND YOU CAN MAKE A CASE TO YOUR REGULATOR YOU NEED TO REBUILD THE GAS NETWORK THAT BECOMES A CAPITAL COST AND YOU EARN A REGULATED RATE OF RETURN ON THAT FOREVER.

AM I WRONG?

>> NO.

IT'S COUNTER INUSE ACTIVE YOU ARE RIGHT.

IN A COMPETITIVE MARKET, BUSINESSES HAVE THE INCENTIVE TO KEEP COSTS LOW.

THEY WANT TO SATISFY CUSTOMERS.

IN THE UTILITY MONOPOLY MARKET, THEY WANT TO SPEND MORE.

THEY ARE SORT OF LIKE MORTGAGE COMPANY.

EACH INFRASTRUCTURE INVESTMENT IS LIKE ANOTHER MORTGAGE THEY SELL AND THEY EARN WHAT IS IN EFFECT AN INTEREST RATE ON THAT MORTGAGE.

SO IF THEY CAN PERSUADE REGULATORS TO APPROVE THAT SPENDING THEY WILL INCREASE RATES AND INCREASE PROFITS AS WELL.

>> Jeff: IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT YOUR UTILITY BILL, AND WHY IT'S GOING UP, YOU CAN SEND US A QUESTION BY E-MAIL LIVE QUESTIONS@MPT.ORG.

MATTER OF SHUTTING DOWN COAL PLANTS WE'VE SHUT DOWN A NUMBER OF THEM AND THERE ARE MORE TO COME.

DID MARYLAND MOVE TOO QUICKLY BEFORE ALL OF THE RENEWABLE POWER SOURCES SOLAR, WIND, BATTERIES, WERE READY?

AND THE UPSIDE OF THAT, UPSHOT OF THAT IS WE IMPORT ELECTRICITY FROM OUT OF STATE?

>> WELL, THESE COAL PLANTS THAT HAVE RETIRED THEY HAVE NOT RETIRED BECAUSE MARYLAND HAS TOLD THEM TO RETIRE.

THERE'S NO LAW THAT PREVENTS COAL PLANTS OR GAS PLANTS FROM BEING OPERATED IN MARYLAND BUT THEY HAVE PROVEN ECONOMIC THEY ARE OLDER PLANTS AND COAL IS NO LONGER AN ECONOMIC RESOURCE.

GAS IS STILL COMPETITIVE.

BUT COAL IS NOT.

SO THOSE PLANTS HAVE SHUT DOWN FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.

AND EVEN THE COAL PLANTS THAT GET SOME ATTENTION THE BRANDON SHORES POWER PLANT IT'S NOT SHUT DOWN IT'S STILL OPERATING.

AND CUSTOMERS ARE PAYING EXTRA TO KEEP THAT PLANT OPERATING UNTIL THERE IS A RELIABILITY SOLUTION SO THAT PLANT CAN RETIRE AS IT SHOULD BECAUSE IT'S VERY COSTLY.

AND IT'S NOT PRODUCING MUCH ENERGY IT IS REALLY AVAILABLE JUST AT PEAK TIMES.

SO THAT FOR RELIABILITY PURPOSES.

IT IS NOT AFFECTING THAT IMPORT.

AND THE QUESTION ON THE IMPORTS IS AN INTERESTING ONE, BECAUSE MARYLAND HAS VIRTUALLY ALWAYS BEEN AN IMPORTER OF 40% OR SO OF ITS ENERGY THAT IS NOT A LIMITATION ON HOW MUCH GENERATION THAT MARYLAND CAN PRODUCE IN MARYLAND AND THERE ARE TIMES OF THE YEAR THAT MARYLAND PRODUCES 100% OR MORE, FEW TIMES, BUT IT'S DRIVEN BY ECONOMICS.

PJM THE REGIONAL SYSTEM OPERATOR THEY DISPATCH THE MOST CHEAPEST POWER PLANTS THAT ARE AVAILABLE AT A GIVEN TIME AND THAT 40% IS OF IMPORTS IS AN AVERAGE OVER THE COURSE OF THE YEAR THAT REFLECTING ECONOMICS.

>> Jeff: VIEWER ROGER WANTS TO KNOW IS MARYLAND ALLOWED TO BUILD ITS OWN ELECTRIC GENERATORS A STATE OPERATED CO-OP WOULD SUPPLY MORE ENERGY AT LOWER COST?

POSSIBLE THAT THE STATE -- BECAUSE THE STATE USED TO REGULATE IT WE DON'T REGULATE IT ANYMORE THIS WOULD GO A STEP FURTHER FOR STATE-OWNED GENERATION?

>> THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE SORT OF CREATED UNDER STATE LAW.

OTHER STATES DO HAVE POWER AUTHORITIES.

MARYLAND DOES NOT HAVE A POWER AUTHORITY.

THERE IS A PROVISION THAT IN THE STATUTE ENACTED A FEW YEARS AGO THAT WOULD HAVE THE GENERAL SERVICES ADMINISTRATION CONSIDER PROCURING WIND OFFSHORE WIND CAPACITY.

THAT HASN'T MOVED TOO FAR FORWARD RIGHT NOW.

BUT THAT COULD BE DONE.

BUT THAT WOULD HAVE TO BE DONE THROUGH THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

>> Jeff: INTERESTING QUESTION.

HOW MANY MARYLAND MUNICIPALITIES OFFER THEIR OWN SERVICES SUCH AS HAGERSTOWN WHICH I DID NOT KNOW HOW DOES THAT PLAY IN THE STATE ENERGY COST FOR RESIDENTS?

IS THERE A CO-OP IN HAGERSTOWN?

>> IT IS A MUNICIPAL UTILITY.

THERE'S EASTON, THERE'S OTHER MUNICIPAL UTILITIES IN THE STATE.

THE SOUTHERN MARYLAND ELECTRIC COOPERATIVE.

THESE ARE DIFFERENT MODELS OF NONFOR-PROFIT UTILITIES.

EXCELON UTILITIES SERVE 80% OF MARYLAND CUSTOMERS THROUGH THE FOR-PROFIT UTILITIES, BGE, PEPCO AND DELMARVA POWER.

>> Jeff: WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THE BIG ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE DATA CENTERS AND CHATURVEDI IS LISTENING, NO DISRESPECT, BUT WHEN THEY SETUP ONE OF THESE THINGS THEY USE AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF POWER IS THAT DRIVING UP EVERYBODY'S BILLS?

>> IT'S CERTAINLY ALREADY HAVING AN IMPACT AND POTENTIALLY GOING TO HAVE A BIGGER IMPACT IF WE DON'T ADDRESS THEM.

IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA RIGHT NOW THEY ARE PROJECTING TO ADD ESSENTIALLY THE ENTIRE POWER DEMAND THAT MARYLAND HAS DEVELOPED OVER A CENTURY, AND DROPPING THAT IN NORTHERN VIRGINIA IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS ON TOP OF THE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE.

SO CUSTOMERS ARE STARTING TO SEE SOME OF THOSE COSTS.

THERE'S THE CAPACITY MARKET COSTS.

SOME OF THOSE ARE STILL YET TO BE SEEN.

THEY ARE FOR FUTURE YEARS BUT THERE IS AN ANALYSIS SHOWING THE CAPACITY COSTS ACROSS PJM INFLATED THE MARKET BY 23 BILLION DOLLARS.

SO WE'RE ALSO -- >> Jeff: CAN WE MAKE THEM PAY MORE?

IF IF YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE 10 GAZILLION WATTS YOU WILL PAY MORE THAN I DO?

>> THAT IS ONE OF OUR PRIMARY EFFORTS GOING ON IN OUR OFFICE RIGHT NOW, TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT DATA CENTERS PAY THEIR FREIGHT THAT IS ONLY FAIR AND THAT IS THE WAY THE LAW SHOULD WORK.

THE PROBLEM IS WE HAVE A REGULATORY SYSTEM THAT NEEDS TO CATCH UP TO THE DATA CENTERS.

THIS IS REALLY A DEVELOPMENT JUST OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

IT'S MASSIVE.

IT'S CONCENTRATED AND IT'S REALLY FAST SO THE REGULATORY SYSTEM IS REALLY PREMISED ON MORE DISPERSED GROWTH OVER TIME.

AND OVER AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME AND DATA CENTERS BREAK THAT PARADIGM.

>> Jeff: VIEWER DAVID WANTS TO KNOW WHY ARE WE NO LONGER ABLE TO SELECT AN ELECTRICITY SUPPLIER OUT OF STATE?

THERE USED TO BE A COMPETITIVE SYSTEM?

>> THERE WAS LEGISLATION PASSED IN 2024, TWO YEARS AGO, SENATE BILL 1, IT'S WELL-KNOWN.

BUT IT ADDRESSED A LOT OF PROBLEMS THAT WE HAD WE'RE SEEING IN OUR RETAIL MARKET WHERE A LOT OF CUSTOMERS WERE FRANKLY BEING GOUGED BY RETAIL SUPPLIERS.

WE WERE ENGAGED IN A LOT OF LITIGATION WITH THESE COMPANIES.

SO THAT BILL ENACTED A LOT OF VERY IMPORTANT CONSUMER PROTECTIONS.

BUT IT ALSO HAD PROVISIONS THAT MAKE IT HARD FOR THE SUPPLIERS TO COMPETE.

TECHNICALLY THEY CAN STILL COMPETE IN MARYLAND BUT IT'S HARD FOR THEM TO COMPETE ON PRICE.

>> Jeff: SO YOUR OFFICE, IF ONE OF THE POWER COMPANIES GAS COMPANIES PUTS IN FOR A RATE INCREASE, DISTRIBUTION CHARGE LIKE BG AND E YOUR JOB IS TO ARGUE THAT IT SHOULD BE A LOWER NUMBER.

MORE BROADLY, IS THERE ANYTHING WHILE THE STATE LEGISLATURE IS IN, THAT YOU AND YOUR TEAM WOULD WANT THEM TO LOOK AT THAT WOULD HAVE A RAPID IMPACT AND BRING RELIEF TO PEOPLE?

>> YES.

AND I SHOULD SAY THAT WE DO GENERALLY OPPOSE THE FULL RATE INCREASE.

BUT WE LOOK AT THE FACTS AND APPLY THE LAW AND GENERALLY, WE NEED INFRASTRUCTURE AND WE NEED TO FIX IT OR REPLACE IT AT THE APPROPRIATE TIME.

BUT GENERALLY WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS WAY TOO FAST INFRASTRUCTURE SPENDING AND THAT IS WHAT IS DRIVING UP RATES.

ONE THING THAT THE LEGISLATURE COULD DO IS LOWER THE PROFIT LEVELS, THE PUBLIC SERVICE COMMISSION SETS THE PROFIT LEVELS OF THE UTILITIES.

AND THE LEGISLATURE COULD GIVE GUIDANCE TO REDUCE THOSE PROFIT LEVELS.

>> Jeff: WE WILL HAVE TO LEAVE IT THERE.

DAVID LAPP IS THE PEOPLE'S COUNSEL.

WE WILL HAVE YOU BACK IN AUGUST WHEN MY BILL IS UP AGAIN.

APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU.

[♪♪] NOW ON THE BOOK BEAT WE ARE JOINED BY THE AUTHOR OF "YOUR DATA WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU", POLICING IN THE AGE OF SELF SURVEILLANCE.

THE AUTHOR IS ANDREW GUTHRIE FERGUSON, A LAW PROFESSOR AT GEORGE WASHINGTON UNIVERSITY.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

LET'S START WITH THE PHRASE SELF SURVEY RENS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO YOU?

>> SURE.

THIS BOOK IS ABOUT OUR SEDUCTION OF SELF SURVEILLANCE ALL OF THE SMART DEVICES, WATCHES, HOMES, SMART CARS THEY ARE SURVEILLANCE DEVICES AND AVAILABLE TO POLICE AND PROSECUTORS WITH A WARRANT AND A LOT OF THE DATA IS AVAILABLE WITHOUT THE WARRANT AND ABOUT DEMOCRATIC SURVEILLANCE ALL OF THE TAXPAYER FUNDED MONEY THAT GOES TO THE CAMERA SYSTEMS ON OUR STREETS IT IS ANOTHER FORM OF SELF SURVEILLANCE AND THE BOOK IS TRYING TO GET HARD QUESTIONS WHY WE ARE INVESTING IN THIS TECHNOLOGY, WHAT IT DOES TO POWER AND PRIVACY.

AND OUR CIVIL RIGHTS.

>> Jeff: I WOULD IMAGINE MOST PEOPLE WHO USE TECHNOLOGY ARE SORT OF FAINTLY AWARE OF THIS TRADE OFF AND I'M SURE YOU WOULD ARGUE THEY SHOULD LOOK AT IT MORE CLOSELY?

>> I THINK THAT IS RIGHT.

ONE OF THE SHOCKING THINGS TO ME, SOMEONE WHO IS PRETTY FOCUSED ON THIS AREA THERE IS NOTHING TOO PRIVATE, TOO SECRET THAT CANNOT BE OBTAINED BY POLICE WITHOUT A WARRANT.

YOUR DIGITAL DIARY, YOUR APP THAT TRACKS YOUR HEALTH ISSUES ALL OF THAT WITH A WARRANT CAN BE OBTAINED BY POLICE.

AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT IS PERHAPS A REALITY THAT WE MIGHT WANT TO CHANGE.

THROUGH REGULATION, MAYBE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW INTERPRETATION.

BUT I DON'T THINK THOUGH WE HAVE ALL ADOPTED DIGITAL TECHNOLOGIES IN OUR LIVES I DON'T THINK WE REALIZE HOW EXPOSED WE ARE.

>> Jeff: YOU ARE A LAW PROFESSOR TO WHAT EXTENT IS THE LAW HERE SETTLED?

IS IT EVOLVING?

WHERE DO WE STAND?

>> THE LAW IS ALWAYS EVOLVING.

BUT IT'S TRUE IT'S INVOLVING IN THE DIGITAL SPACE.

WE HAVE OLD LAW, ANALOGUE IN A FOURTH AMENDMENT LAW THAT IS BASED ON TECHNOLOGY.

I LITERALLY HAVE TO EXPLAIN TO STUDENT WHAT IS A THERMAL IMAGER IS WHEN WE HAVE QUANTUM COMPUTING AND A.I.

AND THE LAW WAS WRITTEN IN THE 60s, 70s, 80s AND 90s AND APPLY IT TO A WORLD THAT HAS CHANGED WITH A.I.

ON VIDEO CAMERAS, AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READERS THAT ARE CONNECTING TO DATA BASES WHO YOU ARE AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

THE LAW IS STILL MOVING IN ITS VERY, VERY SLOW WAY.

THE BOOK IS AN ATTEMPT TO TRY TO REENGAGE IT OFFERS SUGGESTIONS ABOUT HOW IT COULD EVOLVE FASTER PERHAPS.

AND ALSO ENCOURAGEMENT TO CONGRESS AND STATES TO REGULATE THIS IN A MORE FULL SOME WAY.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE TECHNOLOGY THE LICENSE PLATE READERS, FACIAL RECOGNITION.

THE IDEA OF A LICENSE PLATE WHICH WE'VE HAD FOREVER THE VEHICLE COULD BE IDENTIFIED IT'S NOT ANYBODY HAS STARTED PUTTING BARCODES ON OUR VEHICLES.

SO I MEAN ISN'T THE THING THERE TO BE READ WHAT HAS CHANGED IS MAYBE THE SCALE WITH WHICH IT'S BEING READ?

>> SO IT'S THE SCALE, THE SCOPE AND THE AGREGATION OF DATA.

YOUR LICENSE PLATE WHICH USED TO BE THE NUMBERS THAT MIGHT CONNECT YOU TO WHO OWNED IT ARE CONNECTED TO DATA BASES THAT ARE ABLE TO FIGURE OUT MORE PERSONAL DATA WHO YOU ARE BEYOND JUST WHO OWNS THE CAR.

BUT MORE SO, THE LICENSE PLATES THEMSELVES ARE TRACKED BY LOCATION TIME.

SO IT IS THE SYSTEMS CAN TRACK YOU THROUGH THE CAMERAS TO DETERMINE WHERE YOU'VE DONE.

YOU PUT A LICENSE PLATE READER OUTSIDE A MEDICAL OR LEGAL CLINIC OR THE AA CENTER OR A CHURCH, OR A GUN SHOW IT REVEALS WHO IS GOING TO THE PLACES AND BY INFERENCE WHAT THEY ARE DOING THAT.

IF THE DATA IS SAVED AND OBTAINABLE BY THE POLICE OR THE GOVERNMENT FOR WHATEVER REASON IT MEANS SOME OF OUR SORT OF EXPECTATIONS OF HOW WE LIVE OUR LIVES HAVE CHANGED.

WE'VE CEDED MORE POWER TO THE GOVERNMENT.

AND WE HAVEN'T DEVELOPED CORRESPONDING PRIVACY PROTECTIONS TO GO ALONG WITH THAT CEDING OF POWER.

>> Jeff: NOW, THE CELLPHONE IS A DIFFERENT MATTER.

BECAUSE WE'VE ALWAYS HAD LICENSE PLATES AND NOW WE ALL CHOOSE TO WALK AROUND WITH A DEVICE THAT FOR MOST PEOPLE IF THE GPS IS ON IT IS TRACKING YOU EVEN IF THE GPS IS OFF THEY HAVE A ROUGH IDEA WHERE YOU ARE.

AND THAT IS INDEED SELF SURVEILLANCE.

>> IT IS TRUE.

IT IS THE SMARTPHONE, ALSO CONNECTED TO YOUR SMART WATCH IT IS NOT ONLY TELLING YOU WHERE YOU ARE, AND HOW YOUR HEART BEAT IS AT THE TIME THAT YOU ARE DOING IT.

THAT DATA IS AVAILABLE TO THE POLICE WITH A WARRANT.

THE SUPREME COURT SAID IN A CASE THAT IS RECENT CALL CARPENTER, THAT IF THE POLICE ARE TRYING TO GET AGGREGATED DATA A WEEK THEY NEED A WARRANT.

WITH A WARRANT THEY CAN OBTAIN THAT.

AGAIN, IF YOU ARE THINKING IF THEY ARE TRACKING A MURDERER IT MIGHT MAKE SENSE BUT SAYING WERE YOU AT THE NO KINGS PROTEST OR OUT THERE MAKING A CLAIM TRYING TO PUSHBACK AGAINST GOVERNMENT POLICIES YOU ALSO COULD BE TRACKED IF THAT IS CALLED A CRIME AND THE POLICE WANT TO INVESTIGATE YOUR ACTIONS AND SO THE WARRANT PROTECTION WHICH IS SOMETHING GOT TO GIVE THE SUPREME COURT CREDIT IS NOT THAT PROTECTIVE IN A WORLD WHERE WE ARE CONSTANTLY GIVING UP OUR DATA AND LOCATION.

>> Jeff: WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO SOMEBODY THAT THINKS I'VE GOT NOTHING TO HIDE.

EVERYTHING IS ON THE UP AND UP I HAVE NO SECRETS WHY SHOULD I BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS?

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO POINTS.

A LOT OF PEOPLE UP UNTIL THE LAST FEW MONTHS THOUGHT THAT THEY COULD GO ABOUT THEIR LIVES LIKE EXPOSING THINGS IF THEY ARE A JOURNALIST AND DIDN'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT THE F.B.I.

KNOCKING ON THE DOOR OR PROTESTING WHEN THEY SAW THE POLICE OR GOVERNMENT DOING SOMETHING WRONG AND WE'VE SEEN IT EXPAND TO GO AFTER PEOPLE THAT THINK THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING RIGHT, BUT ARE NOW BEING THREATENED WITH CRIMINAL PROSECUTION.

THAT MAY CHANGE IT.

I ALSO THINK WHAT WE THINK IS POTENTIALLY THE SOURCE OF GOVERNMENT CONDEMNATION CAN CHANGE.

A COUPLE YEARS AGO, PEOPLE WHO OWNED GUNS AND WERE REALLY SECOND AMENDMENT STALWARTS WHO WANT TO BE PROTECTED FROM THE GOVERNMENT OVERREACH WHY REALLY CONCERNED THAT THE GOVERNMENT WOULD COME WITH A DATABASE TO FIND GUN OWNERS.

IF YOU CONNECT OUTSIDE GUN SHOWS AND APARTMENT ANYTHING, YOU DON'T NEED THAT YOU CAN FIND IT THROUGH THE PRIVATE SYSTEMS BECAUSE OUR ACTIONS REVEAL WHO WE ARE.

I THINK IT IS A BIPARTISAN ISSUE ABOUT HOW THE GOVERNMENT WHOEVER IT IS, HOW THEY MIGHT MISUSE DATA.

AND IRONICALLY ENOUGH, DONALD TRUMP'S DATA WAS USED AGAINST HIM AND HE IS UPSET ABOUT IT.

I THINK IT ACTUALLY APPEALS TO WHOEVER IS IN THE POLITICAL MINORITY.

BECAUSE THEY RECOGNIZE HOW THE PEOPLE IN THE POLITICAL MAJORITY COULD USE OR MISUSE THAT DATA.

>> Jeff: IT'S INTERESTING, YOU'VE SAID THAT THIS ALL MAKES THE MIRANDA WARNING OF OLD ANYTHING YOU SAY CAN AND WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU, SORT OF OBSOLETE?

>> MIRANDA IS IMPORTANT IN THE INTERROGATIONS BUT WE ARE SELF INCRIMINATING OURSELVES ALL THE TIME WITH THE DATA.

WE ARE DIGITALLY NAKED EXPOSED BY THE INFORMATION AND WE HAVE NOT BUILT PROTECTIONS AROUND THAT DATA TO COUNTERACT THAT POWER CHANGE.

AND WHAT THE BOOK IS DOING IS BOTH ACKNOWLEDGING THE DESIRE FOR SELF SURVEILLANCE.

THERE IS A REASON WHY PEOPLE BUY A SMART WATCH THERE'S IMPORTANT DATA THAT CAN COME FROM THAT.

BUT THERE MAYBE LIMITS THAT WE WANT TO PUT ON WHETHER YOUR HEART BEAT OR YOUR LOCATION DATA AND WHAT YOU ARE DOING AT A CERTAIN TIME SHOULD NECESSARILY BE EXPOSED TO THE POLICE AND USED AGAINST YOU.

>> Jeff: IF YOU WANT TO BE LESS DIGITALLY NAKED OUT THERE, WHAT DO I DO?

IF I'M GOING TO THE PROTEST OR MAYBE IF I'M GOING TO THE LIQUOR STORE, YOU GET A BURNER PHONE OR SOMETHING?

>> I REALLY THINK THIS IS AN INDIVIDUAL SOLUTION ANSWER.

IF YOU BUY A SMART DEVICE YOU ARE BUYING A SURVEILLANCE DEVICE THAT IS WHAT YOU PURCHASED.

AND YOU COULD CHOOSE NOT TO PURCHASE THOSE.

IT'S HARD TO BUY A NEW CAR THAT DOESN'T TRACK YOU AND HOW IT USES GPS FOR MAPS IS HELPFUL IN LIFE.

AND WHAT INDIVIDUALS SHOULD DO IS TO PUSH THE GOVERNMENT TO REGULATE THIS SO THAT WE CAN HAVE SOME OF THE BENEFITS OF THIS DIGITAL INNOVATION AND WONDER AT THE SAME TIME HAVE PROTECTION THAT IT WON'T BE USED CONSEQUENCE US.

AND THAT IS HARD.

IF IT'S EASY PEOPLE WOULD HAVE DONE IT.

THE BOOK OFFERS A WAY THAT IS IN MANY WAYS NOT NECESSARILY AN ANTITECHNOLOGY STORY.

THE BOOK IS FILLED WITH STORIES OF POLICE USING OUR DATA TO PROSECUTE PEOPLE IN WAYS WE ARE OKAY WITH.

BUT IT ALSO SHOWS THAT THAT CHOICE CREATES A VULNERABILITY WHERE BECAUSE THERE ARE NOT REGULATIONS AND NOT PROTECTIONS WE ARE AT THE MERCY OF HOW THE GOVERNMENT WANTS TO USE ALL THIS INTIMATE DATA.

>> Jeff: AS A LAW PROFESSOR I'M CURIOUS WHAT DO YOU DO WHEN YOU SIGN UP FOR A NEW E-MAIL ACCOUNT OR SOMETHING ELSE AND IT GIVES YOU THE TERMS AND CONDITIONS.

AND IT'S LIKE 20 PAGES OF FINE PRINT LIKE A RENTAL CAR CONTRACT.

USING ALL OF YOUR LEGAL SKILLS YOU CLICK THROUGH IT AND SAY ACCEPT, RIGHT?

>> YES.

AND I CAN'T NEGOTIATE WITH AMAZON OR GOOGLE OR THE F.B.I.

AS AN INDIVIDUAL I'M POWERLESS IN THIS SITUATION.

I CAN CHOOSE WHICH COMPANIES I SUPPORT.

I CAN MAKE SURE I MAKE SMALL CHOICES BUT THIS IS A LARGE SCALE SOCIETAL PROBLEM THAT WE SHOULD ADDRESS AS A SOCIETY AND NOT LEAVE IT UP TO INDIVIDUALS WHO REALLY DON'T HAVE MUCH POWER IN THE BARGAIN.

>> Jeff: ANDREW GUTHRIE FERGUSON THE BOOK IS YOUR DATA WILL BE USED AGAINST YOU, POLICING IN THE AGE OF SELF SURVEILLANCE.

WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME.

THANK YOU VERY MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: AND THAT IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" FOR THIS WEEK.

WE'RE BACK FRIDAY WITH "STATE CIRCLE" AND THE LATEST ON MARYLAND POLITICS.

JOIN US FOR THAT FRIDAY EVENING AT 7:00 P.M.

FOR ALL OF US AT MPT THANK YOU FOR JOINING US FOR "DIRECT CONNECTION".

AND HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

[♪♪]