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♪ FROM MARYLAND PUBLIC TELEVISION, THIS IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" WITH JEFF SALKIN.

>> Jeff: GOOD EVENING WELCOME TO OUR "DIRECT CONNECTION."

THE CALENDAR TURNS TO JULY AND THOUGHTS OF MARYLANDERS TURN TO BLUE CRABS.

BUT THIS YEAR THERE ARE CONCERNS ABOUT A NEW DECISION BY VIRGINIA AUTHORITIES IS THAT COULD AFFECT FUTURE CRAB FEASTS HERE.

JOINING US TONIGHT TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTIONS IS MIKE WILBERG, PROFESSOR AT THE CHESAPEAKE BIOLOGICAL LABORATORY AT THE UNIVERSITY MARYLAND CENTER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE.

MIKE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

BEFORE WE GET TO THE BORDER SKIRMISH THING, BIG PICTURE, HOW IS THE CHESAPEAKE BAY CRAB FISHERY DOING?

>> SO, BLUE CRABS IN CHESAPEAKE BAY ARE DOING OKAY.

THE MAIN THING WE MONITOR WITH BLUE CRABS THIS CHESAPEAKE BAY IS THE NUMBER OF ADULT FEMALES BECAUSE THOSE ARE GOING TO BE THE ONES THAT PRODUCE THE YOUNG THE NEXT YEAR.

AND THEY HAVE BEEN DOING OKAY BUT NOT QUITE UP TO OUR TARGET LEVELS THAT WE WANT TO SEE THEM AT.

AS WELL AS THE FISHERY HAS BEEN HARVESTING A BIT FEWER THAN WHAT WE THINK THE TARGET MIGHT BE ABLE TO SUPPORT.

BUT MALES AND YOUNG CRABS HAVE BEEN LOWER THAN WHAT WE WOULD LIKE, BUT WE ARE STILL WELL ABOVE THE LEVELS THAT WERE REALLY CONCERNING IN THE EARLY 2000S.

>> JEFF: HOW DO YOU KNOW-- THERE IS A DREDGE SURVEY DONE IN COOPERATION BETWEEN MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA THAT HAS BEEN DONE FOR DECADES.

HOW ACCURATE DO WE THINK THAT IS?

>> WE THINK IT'S QUITE ACCURATE.

IT IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE BEST FISHERY SURVEYS THAT WE HAVE, CERTAINLY IN THE BAY BUT ALSO ALONG THE EAST COAST.

AND SO THE WAY THE DREDGE SURVEY WORKS IS THEY HAVE VESSELS THAT GO OUT WITH A SIX-FOOT WIDE CRAB DREDGE IN THE WINTER WHILE THE CRABS ARE MORE DORMANT.

AND BASICALLY THEY DREDGE THEM UP AND COUNT THE NUMBER THAT, OVER THE AREA OF THE DREDGE THEY TOW AND THEN WE CAN SCALE UP THE NUMBERS THAT THEY CATCH IN ORDER TO GET ESTIMATES OF ABUNDANCE.

THAT'S THE MAIN WAY THE BLUE CRAB IS TRACKED IN CHESAPEAKE BAY AND THAT'S HOW WE GET OUR ANNUAL ABUNDANCE ESTIMATES THAT GET REPORTED.

>> Jeff: IN ADDITION TO THAT, YOU ARE STARTING WORK ON A NEW ASSESSMENT OF THE CRAB POPULATION.

HOW IS THAT GOING TO BE DONE?

>> THE ASSESSMENT IS A LITTLE DIFFERENT FROM THE ANNUAL SURVEY.

THE WAY THE ASSESSMENT WORKS IS THAT WE TRY TO TAKE A HOLISTIC LOOK AT ALL DATA AVAILABLE FOR BLUE CRABS AND THEN WE TRY TO RECONSTRUCT HOW THEIR POPULATION HAS CHANGED OVER TIME, WHAT THINGS MIGHT BE INFLUENCING IT, HOW FISHING IN PARTICULAR HAS INFLUENCED IT.

AND ONE OF THE MAIN GOALS OF THE STOCK ASSESSMENT IS TO TRY AND FIGURE OUT HOW MANY BLUE CRABS IT IS SAFE TO HARVEST EACH YEAR AND THAT INFORMATION IS USED TO HELP DEVELOP REGULATIONS THAT WILL ALLOW SUSTAINABILITY AND OTHER THINGS LIKE THAT TO HELP MANAGE THE FISHERY.

>> Jeff: I KNOW OUR VIEWERS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW MANY ARE SAFE TO HARVEST EACH YEAR BUT MAYBE MORE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW MANY ARE SAFE TO EAT EACH YEAR.

SHOULD PEOPLE WATCHING FEEL GUILTY OR NOT GUILTY ABOUT GOING TO A CRAB FEAST THIS SUMMER?

>> IN GENERAL, I THINK THE CRAB POPULATION IS DOING REASONABLY WELL, AND SO I DON'T THINK-- IT'S NOT DOING ENVIRONMENTAL HARM TO EAT BLUE CRABS SO I DON'T THINK PEOPLE SHOULD FEEL BAD ABOUT EATING BLUE CRABS.

>> Jeff: THAT'S THE SOUNDBITE FOR THE EVENING.

WE'LL PRINT THAT ONE FOR FUTURE USE.

LET ME REMIND OUR VIEWERS, IF YOU HAVE A QUESTION ABOUT MARYLAND BLUE CRABS CALL THE NUMBER ON THE SCREEN OR WRITE TO THE WORDS ON THE SCREEN.

LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SKIRMISH THAT BROKE OUT LAST WEEK BETWEEN THE STATES OF MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA.

THERE WAS A NARROW VOTE BY VIRGINIA AGENCY TO GO BACK TO ALLOWING A WINTER HARVEST.

WHY IS THAT IMPORTANT?

>> SO, LET'S SEE, IN 2008, THE VIRGINIA WINTER DREDGE FISHERY WAS CLOSED AS PART OF THAT TO RECOVER THE POPULATION.

ONE OF THE MAIN REASONS THAT FISHERY WAS CLOSED IS BECAUSE IT CATCHES ALMOST EXCLUSIVELY FEMALES AND THESE ARE ALMOST ALL FEMALES THAT WILL BE THE ONES THAT WILL BE SPAWNING THE NEXT YEAR.

SO IT CATCHES THEM AT A SENSITIVE POINT IN THEIR LIFE CYCLE.

ONE OF THE REASONS THE FISHERY IS MOSTLY FEMALE IS BECAUSE THE BLUE CRABS LIFE CYCLE.

FEMALES NEED FULL STRENGTH SEA WATER FOR THEIR EGGS TO SURVIVE.

SO THEY ALL MARCH DOWN TO THE MOUTH OF THE CHESAPEAKE BAY TO SPAWN.

AND MANY OF THEM, OVER THE WINTER, NEAR THE MOUTH OF THE CHESAPEAKE BAY, AND THAT'S WHERE A LOT OF THIS WINTER DREDGE FISHERY USED TO OCCUR.

SO THAT'S ONE OF THE MAIN CONCERNS ABOUT IT IS THAT IT'S TARGETING THIS PORTION OF THE POPULATION WHEN THEY'RE QUITE VULNERABLE.

>> Jeff: AND TRYING TO THINK ABOUT THE POLITICS OF IT.

I MEAN MARYLAND WATERMEN DON'T GET ANY OF THAT.

IT'S ALL VIRGINIA, I GUESS?

>> YES.

AND SO SOME OF THE CRABS THAT THEY'RE HARVESTING ARE ONES FROM MARYLAND THAT MADE THEIR WAY DOWN TO THE MOUTH-- SO WE ARE TALKING ABOUT CRABS FROM ALL OVER THE BAY, MARYLAND, POTOMAC RIVER AND VIRGINIA ALL GOING DOWN TO THE MOUTH OF BAY TO SPAWN AND THAT'S-- THOSE ARE THE CRABS THAT WE THINK ARE THE ONES WHERE THEIR YOUNG ARE RETURNING TO THE BAY TO KEEP THE LIFE CYCLE GOING.

>> Jeff: IT SEEMS INTUITIVE THAT THEY SHOULD BE LEFT ALONE, PARTICULARLY THE FEMALES, BUT IS THERE ANY DATA TO BACK UP THE IDEA THAT, I THINK YOU SAID 2008, WAS SOME SORT OF TURNING POINT FOR THE CRAB POPULATION?

>> IN 2008, THERE WAS A LARGE COMMISSION, THE BISTATE BLUE CRAB COMMISSION THAT THIS WAS PART OF THEIR ANSWER THAT THEY NEGOTIATED BETWEEN MARYLAND AND VIRGINIA TO TRY AND HELP THE POPULATION RECOVER.

AND SO THAT IS WHERE THE IDEA OF CLOSING THE WINTER DREDGE FISHERY CAME FROM.

THE OTHER PIECE OF INFORMATION THAT WAS IMPORTANT AT THE TIME, WAS THAT THE WINTER DREDGE FISHERY WAS THOUGHT TO ALSO HARM OTHER CRABS THAT WEREN'T CAUGHT, TOO, AND SO WHEN DREDGES WERE DRAGGED ACROSS THE BOTTOM, PARTICULARLY IN SANDY ENVIRONMENTS, THEY TENDED TO NOT CATCH ALL THE CRABS AND THEY WOULD KILL THEM OTHERWISE, WHICH MADE THE FISHING-- THE EFFECT OF THE FISHERY WASN'T JUST THE ANIMALS THAT WERE CAUGHT.

IT WAS ALSO ALL THE OTHER ONES THAT WERE KILLED TOO.

>> Jeff: CRABS HAVE AN AMAZINGLY SHORT LIFE CYCLE.

IT'S GENERALLY JUST TWO YEARS?

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> YES, THAT'S OUR BEST QUESTIONS RIGHT NOW, THAT ABOUT PROBABLY ABOUT 95% OF THE CRABS WON'T LIVE LONGER THAN TWO YEARS.

>> Jeff: AND THEN WHAT HAPPENS TO THEM?

THE PREDATOR LIST WOULD INCLUDE US, BUT YOU KNOW, YOU ALSO READ A LOT ABOUT THE BLUE CATFISH, SNAKE HEADS, ROCK FISH.

>> THEY TEND TO EAT THE SMALL SMALLER BLUE CRABS SO FOR THE LARGER BLUE CRABS THEY'RE PROBABLY DIEING FROM DISEASE, OTHER SORTS OF CRABS EATING THEM.

ONE OF THE BIGGEST SOURCES OF MORTALITY FOR BLUE CRABS IS OTHER BLUE CRABS EATING THEM.

AND SO THERE IS A VARIETY OF THINGS THAT WOULD PREY ON THEM.

BUT DEFINITELY THINGS LIKE BLUE CATS WILL EAT LARGE BLUE CRABS AND SMALL BLUE CRABS, TOO.

ROCK FISH TEND TO MAINLY FOCUS ON SMALLER BLUE CRABS.

>> Jeff: IN TERMS OF REGULATION OVERALL, WOULD YOU SAY THAT REGULATORY ENVIRONMENT IS PERMISSIVE OR RESTRICTIVE IN TERMS OF THE FISHERY?

I'M SURE THE WATERMEN WOULD ALWAYS LIKE TO BE ABLE TO CATCH MORE, BUT IN TERMS OF RECREATIONAL CRABBERS AND THE OVERALL ENTERPRISE, IS IT HISTORICALLY LOOSE OR TIGHT?

>> WE ARE TIGHTER THAN WE HAVE BEEN THROUGHOUT MOST OF THE HISTORY FOR THIS FISHERY.

BUT THE REGULATIONS STILL ALLOW FOR QUITE A BIT OF FISHING.

AND SO THE ABILITY OF THE FISHERY TO BE ECONOMICALLY SUSTAINABLE FOR ALL THE WATERMEN IS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT THE MANAGEMENT AGENCY TAKES VERY SERIOUSLY WHEN THEY'RE CONSIDERING THE REGULATIONS.

>> Jeff: LET'S TALK ABOUT EUROPE, WHICH I DON'T THINK IS ANYTHING I'VE EVER BROUGHT UP BEFORE IN A CONVERSATION ABOUT BLUE CRABS, BUT I WAS READING THAT BLUE CRABS HAVE BECOME AN INVASIVE SPECIES OF THEIR OWN, PARTICULARLY IN ITALY.

HOW CAN THAT BE?

>> YEAH, AND SO THEY HAVE BEEN TRANSPORTED OVER THERE VIA SHIPS, I BELIEVE, AND THEY HAVE REALLY TAKEN AHOLD AND THEY'RE BECOMING REALLY COMMON ALL ALONG THE MEDITERRANEAN.

IN FACT, ONE OF THE RESEARCHERS FROM TURKEY CAME AND VISITED OUR LAB ABOUT 10 YEARS AGO TRYING TO UNDERSTAND BLUE CRAB BIOLOGY AS IT WAS UNFOLDING IN TURKEY.

SO AT THE FAR END OF THE MEDITERRANEAN, BUT, YEAH, ITALY HAS BEEN IN THE NEWS RECENTLY BECAUSE OF CONCERNS ABOUT BLUE CRABS AFFECTING THEIR CLAM AQUA CULTURES.

BLUE CRABS HAVE BEEN REPORTED TO GET INTO THE CLAM FARMS AND BASICALLY EAT ALL THE BABY CLAMS THAT THEY WERE TRYING TO RAISE.

>> Jeff: WELL, IF THEY WANT TO GET RID OF BLUE CRABS IN ITALY, I THINK WE CAN HELP, BUT THERE IS REALLY NOT A FISHERY FOR THAT.

THERE IS REALLY NO REASON TO TRANSPORT THEM THAT FAR.

SO THEY WOULD EITHER HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO DESTROY THEM OR EAT THEM THEMSELVES.

>> YEAH, THEY HAVE BEEN APPARENTLY STARTING TO MAKE OWN MARKETS FOR THEM OVER THERE, AT LEAST FROM SOME OF THE STUFF THAT I'VE READ.

UNFORTUNATELY, NOBODY HAS INVITED ME TO ITALY YET TO GO AND HELP THEM WITH THEIR BLUE CRAB PROBLEM.

I'M WAITING FOR THAT CALL.

>> Jeff: I THINK THAT'S AN EXCELLENT IDEA.

YOU PREVIOUSLY DID SOME WORK ON OYSTERS, WHICH, YOU KNOW, I THINK OF, AT THIS POINT, AS PRETTY WELL DECIMATED IN THE BAY.

DISEASE, OVERFISHING.

BUT THRIVING IN AN AQUA CULTURE SETTING.

WHAT IS THE REALITY OF THAT.

>> OYSTERS HAVE BEEN INTERESTING IN THAT AS BLUE CRABS HAVE BEEN DECLINING, OYSTERS HAVE BEEN DOING MUCH BETTER, PARTICULARLY IN MARYLAND.

AND SO OVER THE LAST 10 OR 12 YEARS, WE HAVE SEEN OYSTERS HAVE A PRETTY MAJOR REBOUND, AT LEAST IN THE PARTS OF THE BAY IN THE TOP PART AND SOUTH WHERE WE HAVE SEEN THEM RECOVER.

IT'S STILL NOT A GOOD SITUATION IN THE NORTHERN PART OF THE BAY FOR OYSTERS.

SO NORTH OF THE BAY BRIDGE, OYSTERS HAVE CONTINUED TO DECLINE AND ARE AT HISTORICALLY LOW LEVELS.

BUT WE HAVE SEEN REALLY STRONG RECOVERIES OF OYSTERS IN THE TANGIER SOUND.

>> Jeff: TWO DISEASES YOU USED TO HEAR ABOUT MSX AND DERMO BUT YOU DON'T AREA THAT ANYMORE.

SEDIMENT WAS AN ISSUE.

ARE THOSE STILL FACTORS.

>> MSX AND DERMO ARE STILL THE TWO MAIN DISEASES.

ONE OF THE REASONS THAT OYSTERS-- SORRY, SWITCHED MY SPECIES UP-- THAT OYSTERS HAVE INCREASED IN RECENT YEARS IS BECAUSE WE HAVEN'T SEEN THE SEVERE DISEASE OUTBREAKS LIKE WE DID IN THE MID 1980s OR MID 1990S.

IN THE MID 19ATION, WE HAD SEVERAL YEARS OVER WHICH ABOUT 75% OF THE ADULT OYSTERS WERE KILLED AND THEN WE HAD ANOTHER OUTBREAK OF DISEASE LIKE THAT IN 1999-2002.

SO BECAUSE OF BOTH-- WHEN BOTH OF THOSE DISEASES HAPPENED IS WHEN THE POPULATION DROPPED TO ITS LOWEST LEVEL IN THE EARLY 2000S.

SINCE THEN WE HAVEN'T HAD A MAJOR DISEASE OUTBREAK.

LAST YEAR THE DISEASE WAS UP A LITTLE BIT AND MORE CRABS WERE SHOWING UP DEAD IN THE FISHERY SURVEYS.

BUT IT WASN'T ANYTHING LIKE IT WAS IN THE REALLY BAD YEARS WHEN THE DISEASE WAS AFFECTING THEM SO THAT'S A REALLY MAJOR PART ABOUT THE TURN AROUND FOR OYSTERS.

>> Jeff: WHAT WOULD YOU SAY THE HEALTH OF THESE POPULATIONS, OYSTERS, CRABS, OTHER SPECIES, TELLS US ABOUT THE OVERALL HEALTH OF THE BAY?

>> I THINK IT TELLS US THAT THE SAME SORT OF MESSAGE THAT WE GET FROM THE OTHER SOURCES, LIKE BAY REPORT CARD AND OTHER THINGS, THAT WE ARE KIND OF IN A MIXED STATE; THAT OYSTERS AND BLUE CRABS AREN'T-- WE DON'T THINK THEY'RE NEAR THE LEVELS OF ABUNDANCE THEY WERE SAY IN THE 1950S PROBABLY QUITE A BIT BELOW THAT AND A LOT OF THAT IS PROBABLY-- I SUSPECT A LOT OF THAT IS DUE TO HABITAT CHANGE THAT HAS JUST BEEN CAUSED BY SO MANY MORE PEOPLE LIVING IN THE CHESAPEAKE BAY WATERSHED.

>> >> Jeff: YOU KNOW, MIKE... >> AND THE EXTRA EFFECTS THAT HAS.

>> Jeff: YOU FROZE FOR A SEC.

THERE WAS SOMEBODY AT UMCES THAT WAS WORKING ON A WAY TO RAISE CRABS, BABY CRABS IN CAPTIVITY AND BASICALLY STOCK A WATERWAY.

NOTHING CAME OF THAT, RIGHT?

>> NO, THAT PROJECT GOT QUITE A WAYS ALONG AND THOSE FOLKS WERE AT THE INSTITUTE FOR MARINE ENVIRONMENTAL TECHNOLOGY UP IN BALTIMORE AND THAT PROGRAM ENDED UP NOT REALLY GETTING OFF THE GROUND, BUT THEY DID A LOT OF WORK TO SET UP HATCHERIES AND SHOW THAT IT WOULD BE POSSIBLE TO STOCK CRABS AND HAVE THEM SURVIVE.

>> Jeff: WOULD BE PRETTY COOL.

MIKE, WE'LL LEAVE IT THERE.

MIKE WILBERG PROFESSOR AT THE CHANGEUP BIOLOGICAL LABORATORY AT THE UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND CENTER FOR ENVIRONMENTAL SCIENCE.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Jeff: NOW A NEW TWO-PART REPORT FROM THE ABLE FOUNDATION.

LOOKS AT THE STATE OF POLICE-COMMUNITY RELATIONS.

PART ONE LOOKS AT WAYS TO IMPROVE THAT RELATIONSHIP.

AND PART TWO FOCUSES ON SENDING NON-OFFICERS TO RESPOND TO CERTAIN CALLS.

WE SPOKE WITH TWO OF THE AUTHORS UNIVERSITY OF MARYLAND PROFESSORS GREG MIDGETTE AND BROOKE HITCHENS.

>> SO Dr. LAUREN PORTER AND I SET OUT TO CONDUCT A SERIES OF INTERVIEWS IN BALTIMORE ABOUT HOW BLACK RESIDENTS ARE KIND OF UNDERSTANDING, EXPERIENCING AND I GUESS MORE BROADLY CONCEPTUALIZING THE POLICE DEPARTMENT.

WE KNOW THAT BALTIMORE HAS AN INTERESTING HISTORY RELATED TO THE BLACK POPULATION IN POLICE AND SO WE WANTED TO KIND OF, IF YOU WILL, GATHER A LARGER QUALITATIVE SAMPLE OF THE BALTIMORE COMMUNITY, SPECIFICALLY PREDOMINANTLY BLACK, SO THE BLACK COMMUNITY, TO SEE HOW THEY WERE FEELING AND EXPERIENCING THE BPD.

>> Jeff: AND TELL BUS YOUR PART OF THE RESEARCH?

>> FOLLOWING ON Dr. HITCHENS WORK, WE LOOKED AT OPPORTUNITIES FOR POLICE REFORM OR REFORMS TO THE TYPES OF RESPONSIBILITIES THAT POLICE TAKE ON.

LOOK AGO CROSS A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT CITIES IN THE U.S. WHO HAVE EXPERIMENTED WITH AND IMPLEMENTED PROGRAMS THAT WHEN SOMEONE CALLS 911 FOR A CALL THAT DOESN'T SEEM TO BE RELATED TO A CRIME OR OBVIOUS NEED FOR POLICE, SENDING COMMUNITY-BASED RESPONDERS, CIVILES TO RESPOND TO THE 911 CALLS.

THEN WE-- AND SO WE VISITED FOUR SITES, FOUR BIG CITIES THROUGHOUT THE U.S. AND THEN PERFORMED AN ANALYSIS, SEEING WHAT THINGS WOULD LOOK LIKE, FORECASTING WHAT THINGS MIGHT LOOK LIKE IF BALTIMORE WERE TO SCALE UP ITS 911 CALL DIVERSION PROGRAM.

>> Jeff: Dr. HITCHENS, I THINK YOU SAID IT'S AN INTERESTING HISTORY OF POLICING IN BALTIMORE.

IT WAS ALWAYS A BARE KNUCKLES POLICE FORCE.

NINE YEARS AGO THE FREDDY GRAY IN CUSTODY DEATH, THEN THE SCANDAL, THE GUN TRACE TASK FORCE SCANDAL.

SO YOU HAD BRUTALITY, YOU HAD CORRUPTION AND THE PENDULUM WENT FROM BARE KNUCKLES TO VERY HANDS OFF POLICING.

THROUGH ALL OF THAT, DO YOU FIND THAT PERCEPTIONS-- NOW THAT THE FORCE IS UNDER A CONSENT DECREE-- HAVE PERCEPTIONS WITHIN THE CITY POPULATION CHANGED?

>> THAT IS A GOOD QUESTION.

I WILL ADD THAT EVEN IF PEOPLE WERE NOT POLITICALLY ENGAGED, THEY HELD A LONG HISTORY OF THE BPD IN THEIR MINDS.

WE INTERVIEWED FOLKS AS YOUNG AS AGE 18 ALL THE WAY UP TO 84.

SO THESE FOLKS REMEMBER NOT JUST FREDDY GRAY, BUT THEY WERE THE KNOCKERS IN THE 70s AND THE 80s AND THE WAY IN WHICH POLICING IN BALTIMORE HAS CHANGED AND SHIFTED OVER THE LAST SEVERAL DECADES.

AND SO I WILL SAY THAT PERCEPTIONS HAVE REMAINED LARGELY NEGATIVE.

BUT THERE ARE A LOT OF NUANCES, I THINK, IN THE PERCEPTIONS THAT OFTEN GO UNNOTICED.

SO A LOT OF PEOPLE ASSUME THAT BLACK FOLKS HAVE MOSTLY NEGATIVE ATTITUDES BUT THEY'RE CONDITIONED BY A LOT OF THINGS.

THEY'RE CONDITIONED BY BOTH DIRECT AND INCORRECT DIRECT EXPERIENCES AND I THINK THAT IS OFTEN NOT INCLUDED IN OUR DISCUSSIONS.

>> Jeff: AND YOU ASK PEOPLE THEIR THOUGHTS ON WHAT THE POLICE DEPARTMENT OUGHT TO BE DOING TO IMPROVE COMMUNITY RELATIONS.

WHAT DID YOU GET?

>> YEAH, WE GOT SOME INTERESTING-- IT'S INTERESTING BECAUSE FOLKS HAVE SOME IDEAS, BUT I THINK SOME FOLKS ARE SO FRUSTRATED BY THE PROCESS AND POLICING OVER THE YEARS THAT SOME JUST DIDN'T HAVE SOLUTIONS.

BUT THOSE WHO DID, THEY REALLY WANTED TO FEEL A DIFFERENCE IN THE WAY THE POLICE TREATED THEM, RIGHT?

SO A DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY RELATED TO DEESCALATION OF CRIME, A DIFFERENCE IN QUALITY RELATED TO EVERYDAY TREATMENT.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THAT, YOU KNOW, BALTIMORE HAS SEEN AN INTERESTING DECLINE IN HOMICIDE AND VIOLENT CRIME MORE BROADLY LIKE MANY CITIES, RIGHT, BUT THE SCENE OF A HOMICIDE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS A VERY TENSE, VERY TENSE AND TRAUMATIZING SCENE SO MANY FOLKS DISCUSS HOW THEY WOULD LIKE, IN THOSE TIMES, FOR POLICE TO EXERCISE A LITTLE MORE HUMANITY, TO THE SITUATION AT HAND.

>> Jeff: ANY IDEAS FOR THAT BECAUSE I MEAN I HAVE BEEN TO A COUPLE OF THOSE AND OBVIOUSLY, YEAH, IT'S DIFFICULT AND,YOU KNOW, IF SOMEBODY GOT SHOT, PEOPLE ARE ANGRY AND MAYBE THERE WAS A FIGHT AND THE OFFICERS ARE GOING TO BE OUTNUMBERED, HOVER GETS THERE FIRST.

THERE IS THERE A BETTER WAY TO TREAT IT, TO DIFFUSE IT.

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.

VERY TENSE SCENES AS IT RELATES TO SHOOTINGS SPECIFICALLY.

SO PART OF, I THINK RESIDENTS WANT A BETTER SYNERGY BETWEEN THE EMS WORKERS, FIREFIGHTERS AND POLICE.

SOMETIMES THEY DESCRIBE CHAOTIC SCENES WHERE POLICE DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO.

THE E.M.T.

WORKERS DON'T REALLY KNOW WHAT TO DO.

SO MORE SYNERGY AS IT RELATES TO THE MECHANICS OF THAT.

AND THEN MORE IMPORTANTLY, DEALING DIRECTLY WITH THE IMPACT OF THE POPULATION.

SO DEESCALATING NOT JUST THE FIGHTS THAT MIGHT EMERGE, BUT ALSO JUST THE TALKING TO RESIDENTS, RIGHT, MAKING THEM FEEL LIKE POLICE ARE GOING TO DO THEIR BEST JOB TO TRY TO APPREHEND A SUSPECT OR GET DOWN TO THE BOTTOM OF WHAT ACTUALLY OCCURRED.

>> Jeff: Dr. MIDGETTE PLEASE GO AHEAD.

>> TO BUILD ON THAT IDEA, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE SAW IN ACTUALLY VERY SPECIFIC EXAMPLE IN ALBUQUERQUE WHERE THEY'RE RUNNING A 911 CALL DIVERSION PROGRAM, THOSE FIRST RESPONDERS ALSO RESPOND WHEN THERE'S AN EVENT WHERE YOU NEED CROWD CONTROL.

YOU HAVE TEMPERATURES RUNNING HIGH AND POLICE HAVE, YOU KNOW, VERY IMPORTANT, VERY TIME SENSITIVE RESPONSIBILITIES AT A CRIME SCENE.

THEN WHEN YOU HAVE SOMEONE WHO CAN ACT CALMLY AND WITH HUMANITY ALONGSIDE THEM THAT MAYBE ISN'T WEARING A POLICE UNIFORM, IT IS A USEFUL THING.

AND SO THEY RECALL A MASS SHOOTING INCIDENT IN ALBUQUERQUE WHERE WHEN POLICE RESPONDED, SO, TOO, DID THE FIRST RESPONDERS FROM THE COMMUNITY, THE CIVILIANS, WHO BASICALLY WERE THERE TO OFFER CRISIS COUNSELING IN THE MOMENT, TO HELP CONTROL CROWDS A LITTLE BIT INFORMALLY, AND IT HAD AN AMAZING IMPACT, NOT JUST ON THE COMMUNITY IN THAT MOMENT BUT ALSO ON THE POLICE AND THE REALIZATION OF THE UTILITY OF THIS TYPE OF INTEGRATED BETTER INTEGRATED SET OF PROGRAMS OR RESPONSES.

>> Jeff: SO LET'S GET INTO THE CONCEPT OF THAT A LITTLE BIT.

AND I THINK THIS IS IN THE CONSENT DECREE.

IF SOMEBODY IS HAVING A MENTAL HEALTH SITUATION AND A BUNCH POLICE OFFICERS IN UNIFORMS WITH WEAPONS SHOW UP, TENSIONS ARE GOING TO ESCALATE.

AND MAYBE THAT'S-- I MEAN IF THE INDIVIDUAL IS ARMED, YOU DON'T WANT TO SEND SOMEBODY WHO IS NOT ARMED, I GUESS.

TELL US MORE ABOUT IT AND HOW IT'S WORKING OUT IN PRACTICE SO FAR.

>> SURE, YOU ARE RIGHT.

THERE ARE INCIDENTS WHERE IF SOMEONE'S SAFETY IS IN IMMEDIATE DANGER, YOU NEED TO PROBABLY HAVE THE POLICE THERE.

AND ALL OF THE SITES THAT WE VISITED THAT ARE RUNNING THESE PROGRAMS ARE VERY RISK AVERSE IN THAT WAY, WHERE WHEN THE 911 CALL COMES IN, IF THERE IS ANY-- AND THE CALLS ARE SCREENED SPECIFICALLY FOR THIS, IF THERE IS ANY RISK OF PHYSICAL VIOLENCE, THEN YOU DON'T SEND COMMUNITY RESPONDERS BY THEMSELVES.

YOU DON'T JUST SPEND CIVILIANS.

BUT FOR MANY, MANY CALLS AND A LOT OF JURISDICTIONS, THE MAJORITY OF 911 CALLS DON'T INVOLVE THE RISK OF VIOLENCE SO EVEN FOR A BEHAVIORAL HEALTH CRISIS OR MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS, YOU STILL NEED TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY CAREFUL WHEN PEOPLE GET TO THE SCENE BUT WHEN A CIVILIAN FIRST RESPONDERS GETS TO THE TEAM, ALMOST ALWAYS THEY'RE IN TEAMS.

THEY WORK VERY SLOWLY AND METHODICALLY, VERY CAREFULLY THROUGH DEESCALATION WHICH ISN'T THE NORM FOR POLICE 6789 SO IT'S A STARK DIFFERENCE.

BUT WHENEVER THAT FIRST RESPONDERS FEELS AT RISK IN ALL OF THE SITES WE SAW, THERE ARE PROCEDURES TO SAY I'M GOING BACK OFF.

I'M GOING TO CALL FOR POLICE TO INTERVENE.

BUT MOST OF THEM I FIND THAT IS A VERY RARE OCCURRENCE.

ONE IN 10 CALLS OR LESS.

>> Jeff: AND LET ME ASK BOTH OF YOU, JUST SPEND A MINUTE TALKING ABOUT AFTER DOING ALL THIS WORK, WHAT TAKEAWAYS, WHAT IS THERE THAT YOU WANT THE CITIZENS, THE POLICE AND ESPECIALLY POLICYMAKERS TO KNOW THAT YOU HAVE LEARNED THAT THEY OUGHT TO KNOW ABOUT GOING FORWARD?

GREG, DO YOU WANT TO START.

>> SURE.

SO I THINK ONE THING IS THAT THE WAYS THAT WE THINK ABOUT SUCCESS FOR THESE PROGRAMS WILL BE TRICKY.

IN PRINCIPLE, THE IDEA OF HAVING THE COMMUNITY INTERACT WITH POLICE AND PUBLIC SAFETY OFFICIALS AND AGENTS MORE EFFECTIVELY AND MORE POSITIVELY, THAT MAKES SENSE, BUT HOW DO WE MEASURE EFFECT?

AND TO ME, ONE GOOD THING IS THAT PEOPLE MAY BE MORE WILLING TO CALL 911 WHERE THEY MIGHT NOT HAVE OTHERWISE IN BALTIMORE PREVIOUSLY BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T WANT THE POLICE RESPONDING.

WE HAVE HEARD OF THAT OCCURRING.

BUT NOW WHEN YOU THINK THERE MIGHT BE SOME OTHER RESPONSE THAT ISN'T NECESSARILY A POLICE OFFICER, IT PROBABLY IS NOT A POLICE OFFICER, YOU KNOW, HOW BETTER INTEREST BUSH ADMINISTRATION, YOU ARE MORE AWARE OF WHAT THE SITUATION IS ON THE GROUND.

AND BALTIMORE SPECIFICALLY IS FACING, YOU KNOW, A MASSIVE, MASSIVE PROBLEM IN POLICE STAFFING.

SO THERE ARE WAYS TO SHED POLICING RESPONSIBLY AND THIS IS ONE.

>> Jeff: YOUR TAKEAWAYS FOR POLICYMAKERS.

>> I THINK BLACK BALTIMORIANS ARE FRUSTRATED.

THEY HAVE SEEN A LOT IN THEIR INDIVIDUAL EXPERIENCES.

THEY'RE LOOKING FOR A CULTURE CHANGE AND THEY RECOGNIZE THAT'S REALLY DIFFICULT TO COME BY IN A CITY LIKE BALTIMORE.

I THINK FOLKS ARE TIRED OF THE FANCY TERMS THAT WE'VE COME UP WITH FROM DEFUND THE POLICE ON DOWN.

I THINK PEOPLE WANT ACTIONABLE CHANGE IN THEIR EVERYDAY EXPERIENCES.

SO WHEN I'M LEAVING TO GO TO THE SUPERMARKET OR WHEN I'M TRYING TO WALK MY KID TO THE PARK, RIGHT?

EVERYDAY EXPERIENCES MATTER IN SHAPING PERCEPTIONS.

>> Jeff: VERY GOOD, PROFESSORS HITCHENS AND MIDGETTE, WE APPRECIATE YOUR GOOD WORK AND WE APPRECIATE YOUR TIME THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Jeff: AND THAT IS "DIRECT CONNECTION" FOR THIS WEEK.

WE ARE BACK FRIDAY WITH "STATE CIRCLE" AND THE LATEST ON MARYLAND POLITICS.

NOW FOR ALL OF US AT MPT, THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "DIRECT CONNECTION."

AND HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.

♪ ♪