[ Applause ] -Hello, hello, everyone.

You're probably wondering, "Who is this woman sitting here on the panel with these wonderful authors?"

Well, my name is Tamika Smith.

I host "All Things Considered" on WAMU 88.5.

[ Cheers and applause ] Nice to meet you.

So, again, thank you so much for joining us here at the National Book Festival.

I don't know if you know, but this is the 26th year that the National Book Festival has been bringing thought leaders and authors here to our nation's capital.

So, let's give the Book Festival a round of applause for this event.

[ Cheers and applause ] Yes.

So let's dive on in.

-Semple: Let's do it.

-All right, so your wheelhouse, humor.

Okay.

I want to talk a little bit about humor and boundaries in your writing.

So both of you have written about things that may not necessarily sound funny, like depression or anxiety, family dysfunction, relationships.

How do you navigate the art of making something that's painful into something that can be found funny, or you can find humor in it?

-You want me to start?

-You go first.

-Okay.

Oh, my gosh, y'all.

There is an echo, and I can hear myself.

My ADHD meds have worn off.

All I can hear is myself.

That is fantastic.

This is going to be rough, but in a good way.

Yeah.

I totally forgot what you asked.

Wait, no, I remember.

So, I have found that one of the best ways to deal with things that are scary is through humor.

Just because, like, first of all, if you can laugh at something awful, it becomes like a smaller monster.

But also because I found that it is sort of an on-ramp for people who are afraid of what you're going to talk about.

And a lot of times people might say, "Well, I don't understand depression" or "I don't understand..." you know, whatever it is that I'm going to write about.

But if I can get them to laugh about it, then I can get them to keep listening.

And a lot of times they will get further in and go, "Oh, that's what depression is?

I think I have that.

Maybe I do need to learn a little bit about this."

-Mm-hmm.

What about you, Maria?

-So, as a fiction... whoa, you're right.

Wow.

Yeah.

What just happened?

Yeah.

Okay.

So, as a fiction writer, I'm obviously coming to it from a different place than Jenny.

You know, I'm writing stories and characters.

And I, you know, one of the weird things about my writing and when it gets reflected back to me is I'm really not trying to write funny, you know, I'm really just trying to write what's true.

And I feel like I just sit there and think and think and what would really happen?

Or maybe, like, what would I, the super-flawed version me, you know, do in this situation?

And the kind of the more honest I get, I think I just end up at a really funny place because I do think that this, that human behavior and vulnerability.

And if you really get to the truth of what's happening, I do think that it's funny.

And try to deliver it kind of musically, you know, and I think that that's, don't you feel like you're writing for the music?

I'd say, and maybe that's just a natural thing.

But I feel like I'm trying to get, like, we have a natural affinity for that, you know.

But I feel like I'm trying to get like to the truth in like a musical way so it lands somewhere that kind of surprises you.

And I always think that's what people are laughing at, just they're surprised at how this sentence ended or something.

Like, "What?!"

You know, and that's kind of what I'm trying to do.

-Right.

And that's an art.

So, what line would you say you would not cross when you're thinking about what you want to write about?

And how do you find things humorous?

-Well, for me, the only real line that I have is, well, I guess I do have a couple now that I think about it.

First of all, I never write about something that I'm not going to be comfortable talking about later on, because whatever is down there, I'm going to be asked about.

So I have to make sure it's something I'm comfortable about.

And I think everybody's different.

But for me, I always feel like because I'm writing about my life, anytime I write about somebody, I give it to them first.

And I say, "If you want me to cut anything, I will."

And I'm very lucky that all of the people that I surround myself are like, "No, no, no, it's fine," except for my child, who was great when they were little.

And then they got into like the middle-school ages and they were like, "I would prefer not to be perceived."

And I was like, "I get it, I get it."

-Smith: Oh, wow, wow.

-And now they've got, they've gotten to the other side where they're like, "No, actually, this would be a really funny story."

I'm like, "Oh, I could put you back in.

Okay.

All right, you're back in.

You're back in."

-Which makes me ask another question, which is, when you write about characters or people, are you worried about them saying, "Wait.

Is she talking about me?"

-I'm usually not I would say because I'm really writing about myself.

First of all, all my protagonists are me, and I'm giving myself permission to do that.

So, that's taken care of.

But the really bad one is me, right?

And so I'm doing that.

And I'd say the other characters, I really do try to base them on kind of an essential comic premise that's something about me, again, of me and my ego.

Like, my novels are populated.

-Smith: Something about Mary.

-Exactly.

Exactly.

So, but I feel like I try to find some kind of shameful.

little character trait that I have, that I think like, "Oh, that could be kind of funny if I really then build that out into a character."

But there are funny things about other people, like, you know, that I, foibles or something, that I'll notice that maybe they don't even notice.

But if that happens, then I will, I will just, it's so essential to whatever character is.

And then the character is so wildly different from them that no one has ever noticed that they're in my books.

[ Laughter ] -So, that's very important.

-Yet!

-Yes, exactly.

-You talked about this in your interview with Oprah recently about "Go Gentle" about Viv.

And how Viv -- is Viv an exaggerated version of your daughter?

-Yes.

She is like, yeah, not even exaggerated.

[ Laughter ] My daughter was a very exaggerated person when I wrote the book, so that was good.

I didn't have to exaggerate her.

She was, you know, 18 or something.

But yeah, it was really fun.

And my, I mean, it's interesting your daughter at some point said, "Stop."

-Yeah, yeah.

Got to the point where they, well, not stop, but they would read something and they would be like, "Maybe not that, maybe that."

And I was like, "But it's such a good story."

But then it's okay.

It's all right.

But, yeah.

-You know, with my character, Viv, who's the daughter in my book.

And I knew that I would... the thing is to have, I'm sorry, a daughter is just to really laugh at your daughter because they're hilarious.

The teenagers are so funny.

Like, you love them, but you're like, "Did you really just say that?

Is this really the conversation we're having right now?"

I can't help but just laugh at the essential nature of like, their concerns and my relationship with her.

And so my daughter does know that I'm going to write about it and I tell her.

And in this book, "Go Gentle," I said, "Okay, Viv is really shallow and horrible in the beginning.

And I don't want you to think that that's what I think about you, because Viv is going to come and take over the book and like, totally, you know, be..." Sorry, I was told I wasn't allowed to swear.

So, that's why I'm buffering because I was about to... [ Laughter ] I was about to swear.

And now that I -- there's no words that I have.

[ Laughter ] -It said "adults" on the bottom, so I think you can.

-Okay.

Well, whatever it was I said, I said, "Viv is going to win ultimately the war.

You know, and so don't worry."

So, my daughter was like, "Okay, fine.

As long as I can make you cry at the end of your book then, like, you know, and being so mean to you that you will cry."

I was like, "Don't worry.

That's going to happen in our character."

So, that happens.

So, it was okay.

-Yeah.

I'd love to talk a little bit about the behind the scenes on your writing.

Because you've done something that a lot of people have not done, which is become New York Times- bestselling authors.

Yeah, let's give them a round of applause again.

[ Applause ] And I would love to learn or just hear a little bit more about your process.

You know, people see the finished book, but they don't see that work that goes into it.

What does writing actually look like for each of you?

-So, for me, I am a really slow writer.

I have friends who will get onto a plane and they start and then they land the plane and they're like, "The book's out."

I love them, but I want to strangle them.

It takes me typically three to five years to write each book.

And so I have to have a very strong process to push me through because I have terrible writer's block and impostor syndrome.

And so, two things that have been really helpful for me... One is, whenever I'm writing, I have little post-it notes and every single -- I call them chapters, even though they're not chapters because I write memoir essay.

But every single chapter I will write down, "Here are a couple of words of what I want."

And then up on my wall the entire time is, "Chapter one is going to be about this, chapter two..." And every single time I will pull out just one and go, "Okay, this is what I'm going to work on today."

Because otherwise I look at the whole thing and I'm like, "I should start again.

This is all terrible.

I should start again."

So, if I just pull out that one and then I will write on it what percentage done I am.

And that way I can see it change.

And even if I pull it down and I write something and I'm like, "Oh, this is awful," and I delete the whole thing, I still will put it up by 1% because it still work.

And then as I get further, I can start to see these 100%s, you know, show up.

And I can go like, "Oh, okay.

All right.

It's not as big as I think it is."

And then the other thing that's really helpful is I will put on my transcription on my notes on my phone, and I will walk around and say, "Okay, so I want to tell a story and this is kind of what I want to tell," and as I'm telling it, I will say like, "Oh, my God, and I should... Oh, you know what?

There's a... I should have this.

And then, okay, this kind of hits the theme.

And then I..." even though I'm just rambling to myself.

And very often my neighbors will just be like, "You okay?"

And I'm like, "No, no, no, I'm working.

It's fine.

I'm just drinking and working."

But when I come back, I have this giant note that I put into Word, and I'm like, "Okay, it's not just a scary blank page anymore.

This is what I can start from."

-Wonderful, wonderful.

What about you, Maria?

-Well, I want to ask Jenny more about her.

[ Laughter ] I have questions.

When you're writing, when you're actually, like, punctured through the resistance, do you enjoy writing?

Like, are you ever just fiendishly really happy writing?

Because when I read your stuff, I feel like at some point you get there.

-I wait... -Because that's what I'm feeling when I'm reading it.

-Yeah.

I wait because I feel like I can only write something one time, and if I don't do it right, it's gone forever.

And so in my head, I'm like, "Okay, well, I want to write this story, but how am I going to write it?"

And I'll think about it for two weeks straight, and all of a sudden it will come and I'll be like, "Oh, it needs to be chronological and it needs to be in list form."

And my family knows that there's this certain, and I can't speak, I can't, because it'll be gone.

And so, like, I'll walk in and I'll go... And then I'll just go straight to my computer, and it feels, y'all this sounds awful, but it is, like, you know when you're really constipated and then you like, you go to the, and you feel so, like, from head to toe, you're like, "Oh, my God!"

That is exactly.

And every once in a while, I'll make myself laugh.

And that is, because it doesn't happen very often.

But if I make myself laugh, I'm like, "Oh, I did it.

Oh, this is going to be a good one.

This is yeah."

-Oh, amazing.

-Smith: That is awesome.

-I'm much more basic.

[ Laughter ] -Less constipation?

-Exactly.

Yes, exactly.

I'm more regulated.

But basically I really, when I'm working, I really like writing, you know?

I like waking up and writing.

And I like to get up without looking at my cellphone or any of the stuff and just kind of if I can just slide out of bed into my writing chair and write by hand for a long time before, you know, I check my phone and stuff.

And that's usually the basis of what I write.

Like, I really can't write directly onto the computer.

I feel like something's, like, it doesn't go deep enough.

I can't plumb kind of deep enough or get weird enough if I'm writing on the computer, I like to do it by hand.

And I write, you know, I'd say in the old days when the brain was younger, I could write, you know, five, six hours, and now it's getting shorter and shorter, you know.

Because my head just gets tired, I think, earlier.

Are you finding that?

Not to put you into my age category.

But do you find that you're writing, you have shorter writing days?

-Shorter writing days and shorter attention span.

And I have, on a regular basis, and I don't know if this is age or just because my memory is so bad, but I will be like, "Oh, I'm going to write this thing."

And then I start writing it and I'm like, "Have I already told this story?"

And I will literally have to call my agent because I can't remember this.

And I'm like, "Did I do this?"

And she's like, "Yeah.

Yeah, you did.

You're wasting both of our time."

"Right, right."

-Semple: That's why it came out so perfectly in your head.

-Well, here the weird thing is because that has happened multiple times where I have written like a whole chapter and then I'll be like, "Oh, you know what?

You know it would be a really good story?

The exact same thing."

And I'll start writing it again.

And I thought, it was on "Broken," one of my books I had written, and it was all about all the times that I lost my shoes while I was still wearing them.

And I was like, "Oh, I'm so..." And I wrote half of it.

And then it kind of went away and I was like, "I'll come back to it."

And then I was like, "I should write that thing."

Started all over again.

And I was like, "Oh, no, this is going to be okay because I can just mesh them in together."

No, it took so much longer.

Because I was like, "This wasn't written in the same way."

And you look for that melody and that sense of timing.

And I'm like, "These were written in two different voices."

And so when I would add this to this, I'm like, "But this isn't funny with this.

This isn't..." And you have to... I was like, "Well, I guess I'm going to write it the third time."

And that's what I did.

I did, yes.

-So, in "Go Gentle," Maria, you do such a wonderful job with developing the scenes and the voices of all the different characters.

Do you think it's your TV writing that's helped you to really hone in on those scenes?

-Definitely.

I was a TV writer for a long time.

And the TV writing, what it really helped me with was that you only can write in scenes.

You know, there's nothing else available to you.

You don't have narration.

You don't have summary.

It's just like the scenes are the block of the storytelling.

And I was always like a story person.

I wasn't a joke person.

And I really got, you know, my first job was on the "Ellen" sitcom.

And I wrote my first script, I turned it in and then the boss said to me, "Okay, I can either fire you, because it's so bad, or I can make you stand at the whiteboard all day long and do the story beats on the whiteboard, and you're not allowed to sit down except for lunch."

And it was like really rude and horrible.

It was really abusive.

But I of course took that because I was like, "Oh, my God, I don't want to get fired from my job."

But so I ended up in this whole year standing up and like breaking story and getting really good at it.

That was all I did was just look at all the story beats.

And so now I'm very grateful that that happened.

But I think that's my real thing is like story muscle.

I think I really built it.

And so that does come really naturally to me when I write novels.

I'm just, like, thinking of the story beats, you know?

And because story, I mean, scenes are the spine of all novels, you know, mine are particularly scene heavy.

But I think every single novel has to be a series of scenes.

That's where the really important stuff happens, in scenes.

And so, yeah, that really came from the TV writing.

And I'm very grateful because I feel like, to the extent that my books are fun and readable, I think a lot of it is because of like how hyper aware I am of just what a scene is and what it needs to accomplish.

I'm trying to think, do you write in scenes?

-I don't because it's just like "What's going on in my head today?"

-I know, and I'm not... can't even picture you writing a little moment, like with dialogue and scenes.

You don't really do that.

-I really don't.

And, you know, I had at one point thought, "Oh, I think it would be really interesting to, you know, turn this into a TV show" because it got optioned a couple of times.

And so I bought one of those.

It was like, you know, "Here's how to write."

And I just was like, "No!"

ran away.

It was so like... And you have to do it.

It's got to be tight.

And I don't do anything tight.

I'm the opposite of tight.

This sounds gross.

[ Laughter ] But yeah.

So, I was like, "I'm not going to be able to do this."

-Yeah.

It's very different from what you do.

Yeah.

-There's a passage that I wanted to read out of Jenny's book.

And it lends itself to the next conversation I want to have about exploring your relationship with yourself and developing an inner voice.

It says, "It's a collection of prompts and encouragements, you can and should come back to over and over, because the glory and struggle of being human never ends.

These steps are the work of life and that work can be beautiful."

Can you talk a little bit about finding your inner voice and being okay with who that individual is?

I feel like you've been on a journey from when you were in your earlier years in your career as writers.

And now, you know, you can really feel the clarity of your work coming through and who you are.

And you stand firm about what you believe and what you put into the world.

Maria, you want to start?

-Well, it's interesting because I feel that the voice is the voice.

Like I feel like my... it's actually very easy for me to write my voice because it's really just kind of like writing how I talk.

I'm hearing you, in the notes thing.

And I think that the closest you can get and trust in kind of your own music, you know, of your voice that that's really is what's going to be the good experience.

Now, that said, I feel like the way that my voice has really changed over my career is I think in my early novels, I thought that, like, it was like male writers, for me, were the ones that I wanted to emulate, you know.

Because they were the ones that got the acclaim.

And it was the time of Jonathan Franzen and Michael Chabon.

And, you know, I felt like that's what I had to try to do.

And I think that my writing was a little meaner.

You know, I felt like...and also I came from like a very mean comedy background.

I mean, just in terms of the writers' room was just the comedy, not even the stuff on the screen, but the stuff that happened in the room that we all did to impress each other, was essentially mean.

And I started really questioning that and feeling really guilty about that.

And then angry that that's what I kind of adopted as my own.

And so in "Go Gentle" it was very important for me that Adora, who's the protagonist, it's first person, that she never, talk against herself.

That I felt like so much of humor about women is like making fun of them.

You know, that they're a mess, that they're fat, that they're sluts, or whatever it is.

And I felt like even though I'd never really done that, I felt like I had kind of internalized it.

And so I really wanted to try to find like a new comedy where a woman was like, just had a lot of dignity and really smart, like incredibly smart and dignified.

And the laughter wasn't going to come at her expense.

So, that was like my little bar I set for myself.

So, I think it's the same music, but I'm kind of politically coming from a different place.

[ Applause ] Oh, thank you.

-I tend to just get weird with it.

Very often the thing that I go back to is I will write something and halfway through I'll go, "This is going to be too weird.

This is going to throw a lot of people off.

This is going to..." And almost always, that's the stuff that I'm the most proud of.

It's the stuff that people will come up and say, "Oh, my God, I thought it was just me."

And I think that's really, really wonderful.

And I just try to tell myself like, "Okay, it's maybe one in ten people have a brain that works the same way that I do."

And so I spend, you know, a lot of time with the other 90% who are like, "Well, I don't know what's wrong with you, but get away from me."

And that's okay.

But that 10%, there are so many of us.

We're just home, right?

So, we don't see each other, but we're out there.

And then all of a sudden you get us together, and I'm like, "These are the best people ever."

Get the weirdos and the misfits and they're just, they're kind and they're strange and they have such empathy because they're like constantly overthinking all the time.

And so every time I start to think I'm going to censor myself, I'm like, "I'm not writing this for 90%.

I'm writing this for the weird 10%" who are either going to get it or they're going to go like, "You're weird, but I'm here for it."

[ Applause ] -You know, when I was writing "Where'd You Go, Bernadette," it was like this screed against Seattle.

That was one of the kind of, like, organizing principles of this character.

And I would write it and crack myself up because of how much I hated Seattle at the time and all the people.

And I was like, "Oh, this is so...good," you know.

Oh!

[ Laughter ] Oh, I just did.

Okay.

-Lawson: The seal is broken!

We can all curse now.

-But I was like really psyched that it was... And I would write it for myself and then I'd think, "Okay, I'm going to cut this in the next draft because there's no way I can put this in a book."

Like, it's just really for me about like one intersection that I hate and it's like two pages.

And it's just about dropping my kid off, and I'm just putting... But every time that I reread it, I was like, "No, I'm going to keep it in."

And then you just keep it in because you just like it.

And you think nobody's going to get it, but you don't care because it just... So that's my thing, if it keeps kind of cracking me -- I don't laugh out loud.

I'm not a pirate.

I don't laugh out loud.

[ Laughter ] But, you know, you're like, "Oh, I think this has some weird energy."

It's like that I don't understand the energy.

That's what I like the most.

-When it surprises you?

Where you're like, "Where did that come from?"

-And what even is it?

Like, I don't even know.

And if I rewrite it, I might figure out what it is.

And I don't want to do that.

You need it to just be like some weird monster in the middle of your page.

So I like that, yes.

So, it's kind of like that.

-I love it.

I love it.

I love it.

Let's talk about book bans because I know, Jenny, you have a bookstore.

And we're living through a moment when books are being challenged and removed from schools.

As writers, what goes through your mind when you see this happening?

-Texas is bad right now.

Texas, I mean, they're going for the books and they're saying it directly.

One of my books was banned a couple of months ago, which I was surprised it was even in this library in the first place.

But what was really surprising is they had all of these books that were restricted.

You could only get them if you were in this certain AP class.

And they were, I'm not going to get them all right, but it was like "Romeo And Juliet" or like "The Crucible," or like any book that we all read in high school.

And they were like, "No, absolutely not."

And then, of course, if there was anything that had to do, anything that was queer, anything people of color, anything, it'll be something like, you know, "Black Joy," and they'll be like, "Absolutely not!

No, no."

And so it's a scary time for writers, from librarians, for booksellers.

And what I have found, though, is that there are so many people who are just vehemently excited to come out and say, "This is not going to happen, not on our watch."

I have seen a giant difference in people who were like, "School board?

What's a school board?"

who are now like, "Well, I guess I'm on the school board because this can't happen."

And I visit a lot of libraries, and so often I will go in and they will say, "Yeah.

it's awful and it's scary.

But you know what?

All those people that are trying to ban books?

They don't come in here.

They don't read books.

They don't..." So, they're like, "Once you're here, it's a safe place."

But, yeah, it's hard.

It's scary.

But I think it's just so important to tell the publishers that you want to support marginalized voices because the publishers are afraid.

They're like, "Okay, well, if we can't sell to this library because the libraries can't get the funding, we can't get to the school and we can't..." So we do have to actually go out and be like, "What are the books that are being silenced?

How do we give money in that direction so that the publishers say, 'Oh, this is what the world wants, even if the money is not necessarily coming from the schools and the library.'"

So, it will make such a difference.

And if you can't afford it, going to your library and getting that book makes a tremendous difference for authors.

I get people who are like, "I'm so sorry.

I read it at the library."

I'm like, "Oh, my God, always read it at the library.

That's amazing."

-Smith: What do you think we lose when uncomfortable ideas are removed from bookshelves?

-For me, I fall in love with people who challenge me.

And so my favorite books are the ones where I read it and I go, "Oh, what's going on?

I got to Google this.

I don't understand the history.

I don't understand.

This is not the life experience that I have."

And sometimes I'll look it up and I'm like, "I still disagree, but I'm so glad that I learned it."

And then sometimes I look at it and I'm like, "Oh, I was really wrong."

And I'm still going to be wrong.

I'm going to be wrong a million times in my life.

And thank goodness, because we keep continuing to learn.

But if we don't have that pushback of, "Well, have you thought about this?

Or let me give you a different experience, or let me..." then we never grow.

And so I think that's why it's so important to have so many voices, because otherwise it just becomes this every single person says the same thing and every single person.

And we're all dressed alike and we're all exactly the... and that we all lose.

And if you can fall in love with people, you will always protect people.

And they don't want you to love people.

They want you to be afraid of people.

[ Applause ] -Smith: Yes.

One of the topics that you talk about specifically, Jenny, is mental illness, depression.

I know you write about relationships, the intricacies of them.

I would really love to hear from both of you on this because you've both written about the topic of mental health, but in different ways, like I said.

What would you say you understand about mental health or depression now that you didn't understand earlier in your career?

-For me, I think the biggest thing that I have learned is that depression lies.

I have to tell myself that over and over again.

I think it can be very easy to go, "Clearly depression lies because it tells you these terrible ideas that, you know, you're not worth it, or people are mad at you, all of these things."

And every time, absolutely depression lies.

But every time that I'm in a depression, not only do I have to remind myself of that, but I have to remind myself that this is the truth.

Because when you're in a depression, even though you might know it logically, I still hear those voices that are saying, you know, "Maybe the world would be better off without me."

And so one of the things that's really helpful for me is I have written so often about being down in the well, and when I come out, it's like breathing again for the first time.

And so I look at that and I'm like, "Okay, that me wouldn't lie to me."

So I will believe again, even though at the moment I might not.

And one of the things, so when I first wrote about depression was like 15, 16 years ago, and I was really afraid.

And my dad also deals with mental illness.

And I, you know, kind of mentioned it, and he was like, "Don't do that.

What are you doing?

Don't."

But I did, and I wrote about it, and I had people who came out and said, "Me too.

I also feel this way."

And I started getting letters from people who said that they were actively in the process of planning their suicide and got help, not because of what I wrote, but because they saw thousands of comments of people saying, "Me too, me too."

And they thought, "Well, that can't be right."

And then they thought, "Well, if it's not right for them, maybe it's also not right for me.

Maybe also depression is lying to me."

And I think it's beautiful but also sad that there are so many people who are alive today, like mothers and kids, and they are alive because a stranger on the Internet anonymously said, "Me too."

And they have no idea that that little drop, that they saved lives.

And I just always go back to that whenever I start to question myself, because we touch each other in ways that we'll never know.

-You find community.

-I noticed in your recent book, you say that you write from, like you said, "I'm like in the bottom of the pit right now as I'm writing."

So, you actually can manage to write when you're feeling that.

-I can.

It typically is not my best work.

And very often I feel like it's repetitive.

And a lot of times, I will feel like, almost like I have to apologize.

Because I'm continuing to go, "Hi.

I'm depressed again."

And I'm like, "I have, you know, treatment-resistant depression.

This is going to continue to happen."

and sometimes I feel like... and they never have, but I always in my mind, I can hear people go, "One-trick pony!

Get another mental illness."

[ Laughter ] And they don't.

Of course they don't.

But in my head, that's kind of how I feel.

And it's interesting because, I always say like, "I'm in a well and I'm in a hole."

And the reason why is because it literally changes my vision.

And I thought that was just me.

Like, my peripheral vision goes away.

And that's how usually I can tell because the first few days, I'm like, "Oh, I have the flu.

I'm really sick."

And then the peripheral vision starts to go, and I'm like, "Oh, I'm depressed."

It's a different kind of sickness.

And I thought that was just me until I wrote about it.

And a ton of people were like, "Oh, my gosh, I have this.

I thought it was also just me."

So I don't know.

there's comfort in that.

-How has humor allowed you to be able to write about things that you otherwise wouldn't be able to?

-I think that it kind of goes back to like the music of it, at least for me.

That to me that's fun.

If that's like the goal, then I'm trying to kind of land a paragraph or land a thought or something.

Like, there's always... I always get a thrill, like a little bit of excitement.

And that even if the subject matter is really dark, I think that I just really like the challenge of trying to write something true.

And so I never... ...I'm feeling the thing that I'm writing.

You know, like, I intellectually think, oh, that awful thing that happened, that horrible thing that I felt.

But then it's a different kind of mind that goes in of like, how actual am I going to put it into words?

It's more kind of a mad-scientist thing.

So I almost kind of like it.

It's like a fun challenge for me.

-I find a lot of joy in taking something that -- [ Cheering in distance ] Man, what is going on over there?

[ Laughter ] -Smith: I'm not sure.

It's like they're giving away something over there.

-Oh, my gosh.

-Smith: What's going on?

-Semple: Get funnier!

-Yeah, exactly.

We hate you guys!

I'm sorry.

The thing that... what were we talking about?

[ Laughter ] -We are talking about, how has humor given you a way to talk about things that you otherwise would not be able to?

-So, very often, really mortifying things will happen to me on a very regular basis.

And one of the greatest things is being able to look at it and go, "I can find the humor in this."

And then not only do you feel like you own it, but also like your pain isn't wasted.

And when people are laughing with you, they will share with you their own.

And I had one several years ago where, I basically said like, I was getting on a plane, and somebody said, "Enjoy your flight."

And I said, "You too," and I was like, "I can never come back to this airplane."

[ Laughter ] All these people started responding with these absolutely hilarious, like, just the worst.

So many people who were like, "I got into a car, started yelling at my mom.

Was not my mom's car, just some random person thinking they're being carjacked."

I mean, just a constant.

And they were so absolutely hilarious.

And I ended up writing a whole essay about like, here are some of my favorite, my favorite ones.

But to do it, I had to reach out to everyone of those people first and get permission because it had to be in the book.

And I thought like, "Oh, they're going to say no."

And instead, every single person was like, "Absolutely, this was something that haunted me at 3:00 a.m.

before, and now it's the funniest story ever."

And as soon as you have... like, you tell me something embarrassing that's happened to you, I'm like, "We are best friends.

Come sit with me."

But if you're like, "Oh, look.

Oh, I'm so... Look at how great I am.

Look, I got a fancy car."

I'm like, "...you."

Oh, no.

[ Laughter ] -Semple: Uh-oh, uh-oh.

Jenny!

I knew you wouldn't last the hour.

-I was so close!

I was so close.

-Smith: We are getting taken off the air, y'all.

[ Laughter ] -Sorry!

-In your most recent book, you said a friend said this thing that really has stayed with me, and I think about it all the time.

Is that, a friend says that you're never mortified by other people's things.

Is that right?

That it's only like your stuff that you're mortified by.

And when you realize that you don't feel it for other people, that's like a real key, that it doesn't even matter.

When you're mortified, most people don't even notice the thing.

-Yeah.

-That's a really good reality check.

-Yeah.

She was like, "When was the last time you saw someone embarrass yourself?"

And I was like, "Never.

And now I feel worse."

And she was like, "No, it's because you're not paying attention because you're too busy going, 'What am I doing wrong?'

And so everybody's doing that."

And I was like, "Oh, you're probably right."

-Yes, that was nice.

That was good.

-You know, sometimes people use the word "procrastinate" in a negative way.

But I recently had a different perspective on it after I read Michelle Obama's book.

And the book talked about, I think it's "The Light We Carry," that book.

And she talks about how she was in a point in her life where she was knitting.

And she just was knitting because at that point in time that's just what she wanted to do to get through a point in her life.

What would you say you do?

What's your, in lack of a better word, procrastination?

But in light of what Michelle Obama was talking about, what do you use to help you get through a moment?

For her, it was knitting.

For me, I love to color with my son.

That brings me joy and peace.

What about you all?

-Well, I'd say that I always try to take a walk, like immediately if I'm ever starting to freak out about something that I think it's not coming together, or I can't figure it out, or I keep going around in circles.

I mean, I'm not going to have a, you know, beautiful crocheted blanket at the end of it.

But I will get my steps in.

And so I think that it's good to go take a walk and to just kind of like, I literally just kind of shake it out of my body.

Like, just the tangle or the, you know, just the doubt.

I live in New York now, so nature is Riverside Park with cars whizzing by and, you know, rats everywhere.

But that's nature.

That's what we got.

And so I try to get out in nature, you know, to the extent that that's all I'm offered, Riverside Park.

-I draw a lot.

-And doodles, yes.

-Yes.

Because if I don't have something that keeps my hands busy, I will pick at myself and hurt myself.

And so instead I draw because it gives me something to do.

And sometimes my drawings are just like keeping my hands busy during more dangerous times.

And what I found is, because I would just do them myself, they're just doodles.

I'm not trained.

Nobody looks at them and goes, "You should put those in an art gallery."

But as I would do them, I would think to myself something that I needed to remember.

And so every one of my drawings has writing on them of whatever it is that I need to be telling myself.

And so when I started sharing them, people started having them tattooed on them.

And it's so lovely because they're not beautiful, but people can relate to them.

And there's something really wonderful about sharing the things that you struggle with and having other people go, "Oh, you put that into the words that I didn't have."

-So we are going to turn it over to the audience.

But before we do, I have one last question.

You've spent your careers finding humor in plenty of circumstances.

After everything you've written and lived through, what can you look back on and laugh at that you probably didn't think was funny when you were going through it?

-Wow.

I mean, everything.

That's a terrible answer.

But there is every single time that I do something awful, it is an immediate, "Well, that's on brand."

If nothing else, I'm like, "That is..." And sometimes it can take a couple of days or even... you know, the story that kind of went viral for me was, Beyoncé, the giant metal chicken.

[ Applause ] I love it.

I'm not the only one that cursed.

When it happened, and it's a long story.

You'll have to go read it.

But when it happened, it was about this fight that I was having with my husband, and I didn't write about it when it happened because he was still mad at me that I had bought this giant metal chicken, which he completely deserved.

[ Laughter ] So I was like, "I'm not going to write about it now."

And so I waited, and I waited, and I waited, and we went to Hawaii because he had to work.

And he was like, "I need you to come and work with me."

And so we were there and we were working and I was like, "Oh, I'll do it now, because he's not paying attention to the blog."

And then it went viral and it crashed.

Like, all the servers crashed and all the... And so I had to like call I.T.

in to fix it.

And I.T.

is my husband.

[ Laughter ] And so not only were... he was furious.

He was like, "Are you kidding me?

You wrote about it."

But now he's like, "No, actually, I love Beyoncé the giant..." Now, 15 years later, 15 years later.

-Smith: It took some time.

It took a little bit of time.

-Now he's like, "Okay, it's funny now.

It's funny now."

-Yeah.

I don't think there's anything that time doesn't make funny, you know?

And I think that's almost like one's life work is to make it so that the minute it happens, it's funny.

And it doesn't take you ten years to laugh at it, you know.

To kind of cultivate that attitude where you can just like have that attitude in the now, right?

That response to it in the now.

Because I think things are... we have to, I think I'm making just the choice that things are essentially funny, because what's the alternative?

-Smith: That's true.

-But also it's kind of sweet.

Because I will like, just be like, "Oh, my God, I can't believe I did this."

But then if I make myself go like, "That's such a Jenny thing," then there's something a little sweet about it of like, "Okay, I'm going to give you permission and also let's tell some people about it."

And you're sort of celebrating how dumb you are.

And then you're just kind of like, "No, I kind of love me."

[ Laughter ] I love dumb me.

-Semple: Gotta love me.

-I want that on a shirt.

"I love dumb me."

[ Laughter ] -All right.

So let's turn it over to you.

Any questions?

Please, we have two... -Yes, we have two microphones.

-Stands here.

Yeah.

-Oh, everyone's shy.

They were much less shy with Michael Feinstein.

What did we do?

-Smith: Okay.

We'll start here.

Please tell us your name and please your question.

-Beckham: Hi, everyone.

My name is Aja.

Aja Beckham, former southeast D.C.

journalist with DCS and WAMU.

Very excited for you, Tamika.

-Hey, Aja.

-Beckham: Nice to see you again.

-Smith: Hey, colleague.

-Beckham: I have a specific question.

Tamika, I really admire the way that you documented your sister's battle with sickle cell and her journey and your own journey with grief.

I'm wondering how this work can specifically relate to someone who is battling grief, but also how can they find humor in that journey?

And how did you find that during your journey of reading the book, but also navigating your sister?

-Hmm.

That's a really good question.

Did you want me to take it first?

-Yeah, you take it.

-Okay.

I don't know if I found... I'm still grieving, actually.

I'm still grieving her.

She passed away ten years this year, June 24th, and we celebrated her life and legacy earlier this year.

I feel like I'm still grieving, but humor, the laughter, I find it in moments where, how she would have responded to a moment.

That, you know, my mom did something and then, you know, that sibling thing that we had where we would know like, oh, how would she have responded to what Mom did?

And then I would tell her and we would all laugh about it and go, "Yeah, yeah, that's her, that's her."

Yeah.

Yeah.

Thank you for that question, Aja.

-I can't say it any better.

That was... -No, I agree.

That was really nice.

Yeah.

-Thank you.

-Man: So I have a question for both of you.

It's a little off the wall.

-We do off the wall.

-Man: I'm in the right room.

What authors or genres or books do you love that you think your regular readers and fans would be surprised to hear you like?

So, either an esoteric interest or a guilty pleasure, something off brand.

-That is a really good question.

I don't know that anybody would be surprised at mine because I run a horror book club, and I love horror.

But maybe people who don't follow me as much might be... and I just think because people always, they're like, "You have a severe anxiety.

Why...?"

But it is my favorite.

I have horror movies going on 24 hours a day.

They're on in my background.

And you just hear screaming, constantly.

And my husband is just like, "It is like a murder house here."

And I was like, "Oh, murder house.

We should watch 'American Horror Story.'"

And he's like, "What's wrong with you?"

Yeah.

Sorry.

-Yeah.

I think that I have an affinity for bad celebrity memoirs.

And I like listening to them as I go to sleep.

And it's like it puts me to sleep, and then if you miss some of it, it doesn't matter.

[ Laughter ] And you're like better off than them no matter what.

So, you kind of go to sleep feeling good about yourself.

-Smith: Oh, my goodness!

-Man: Thanks very much.

-Okay.

-Hi.

-Jenny: My name is also Jenny.

And first, I have to say, those shoes are amazing.

-I know .Aren't they?

Look at her.

-I need to applaud for the shoes.

-Thank you, girl.

Thank you, girl.

-Jenny: I actually have a question for all y'all's readers, as good readers.

Like many smart, eldest daughters with anxiety, I was an amazing reader as a child and read all the time.

And I found, I want to say, over the last six years, I don't know what could have happened.

I have not been reading, and it's very, very challenging for me to read anything new specifically.

And my attention span has really gone away.

And I feel like I am missing a part of myself and I want to get back to that.

I was talking to someone, a couple people about this, and she was like, "Oh, yeah, me, too."

I think it's something that, and I'm sure our phones aren't helping, nor is our anxiety.

Have you ever had a period like that?

And as readers, what are kind of your recommendations for coming out of that?

-So, for me, there's a couple of things.

First off, I read outside because it helps me pull away from the stress of everything that I associate inside my house.

And which is hard in Texas, but I just have like this giant thing of ice and I'm just... I also think that there's so many different formats that a lot of times if you just go straight to audiobooks.

Audiobooks totally count, right?

And so often we're like, "Well, I'll listen to podcasts, but audiobooks?"

Audiobooks are great.

They're fantastic.

Also, if I'm having a really hard time, I will read graphic novels or poetry or something where I can be like, "Okay, I'm going to finish this in two hours."

Or essay collections because they're very small or short stories.

And also just read what you love because I think so often it's like, "Oh, I've got all these books to read, and I really should read this because it's, you know, important and it's good."

Sometimes I'm just like, "Give me the worst possible, like the trashy.

I love trashy."

I mean, put a vampire in a book, and I'm like, "All right."

And the vampire's naked, double.

Yes.

[ Laughter ] -You know, I think this is like almost my life's work at this point.

Because I also have found that it's hard for me to concentrate, you know.

I've maybe read "Middlemarch" five times, and I went to read it two years ago, and I didn't understand a word of it.

It was just like, "This is like so hard to read."

-Lawson: It's five times more than I because I couldn't get through it.

-And it's like my favorite book and now I can't even, like, it's so hard to push through.

And I read... so, I feel like, I mean, I kind of am a little crazy about it.

What I really do is structure my whole day around reading.

And I do read a lot.

I read like one book, or perhaps even two books a week.

It's like all I do.

And I won't listen to podcasts, and I will do what I call "chair reading" every day.

Like not just lying down in bed and falling asleep, but like sitting in a chair and reading.

And it's just the thing that I decided was like a value that was really important for like, my brain.

That I needed to, I need my attention span to... it has to be long.

I have to be able to go deep into something without distractions.

And so reading really is part of my writing.

But it's hard.

But what I will say, you know, as dire kind of as it is with our attention spans these days, one good book to me will make it all easy.

Like it really is.

When you read just a killer book that's really easy to read... I'm reading this book now, "John of John" by Douglas Stuart.

Oh, my God, Ron Charles clapping, right?

I mean, it's incredible, this book.

It is like so unbelievable.

I love you all, but I need to go be reading "John of John" right now.

And I feel like that's what it is.

And you've just got to find those books, you know?

And I know that's easier said than done, but I'm really big into book recommendations.

And on my Instagram, I'm always doing book recommendations.

And all I really want to do is find readable books for people.

You know, and it really is, that's what it's all about.

Like, what's a book that's going to hook you?

And then you get the beautiful experience of a book in this day, when people say they can't read anymore.

It's very important to me.

Yes.

Thank you.

-Thank you.

So we have... Round of applause.

Let's do it.

[ Applause ] -Round of applause.

-So, we have time for one more question.

-Shana: First of all, thank you all for being here.

This has been such a treat.

My name is Shana, also a native Washingtonian.

A question I have for you ladies is, writing such powerful pieces often sounds like it's so emotionally fraught.

How do you balance that and knowing that... Do you feel like there's a correlation with that and how well something will do?

Do you ever step into other parts of your life and have other people worry about you?

Like, can you talk a little bit about that?

Like, how do you level?

How do you say this will be good regardless of how I feel?

Or how do you deal with that?

-Great question.

-Shana: Thank you.

-I always give a heads-up to my family before if I'm going to write something that's very scary.

And I will tell them, "I am okay.

I'm safe, you don't need to worry about me.

But I'm going to be really honest about, you know, some of my struggles."

And I also use therapy a lot if I'm going to write something that's really hard.

Very often I'm like, "I'm going to have to talk to my therapist after this," right?

Because it brings up... it is so amazingly healing.

And for me, a lot of times if something really bad happens, it doesn't really happen until it's on the page for me.

And sometimes if I write it, even if...because there's lots of stuff that I write.

Nobody's ever going to see it.

But if I write it, I can say like, "Okay, now it's out of my head.

Now I can close the book on it, whatever this worry is, whatever this thing is."

But I do think a lot of times if you're writing hard stuff, it is helpful to have a therapist.

Just a little person just to talk and say, "How are you feeling about that?

What did that bring up that you didn't expect to be brought up?

You know, how are you really doing?

Because sometimes you're like, "Oh, this is totally fine."

And then the next day you're like, "Why did I just have a nervous breakdown?

What is happening?"

-Smith: Yeah, yeah.

-So, yeah, I found that helpful.

-I find that, because I'm writing fiction, I've written about, in "Go Gentle," I wrote about like a sexual assault that was similar to something that happened to me.

And it really was that I was more like, "Oh, good."

Like I needed something.

And I was like, "Oh, I can write about that."

But it really was just the writer in me that was like, "Oh..." I'm always trying to write things with authority, you know?

And so for me, if it fits into the novel, I'm really much more about how it's fitting in the novel, and I'm excited that it fits into the novel.

And that there's always like a scene before it and a scene after it that I don't think it reads to other people, or to the world as being as intense as it might be.

Because it's kind of all in the service of a larger kind of comic novel, you know.

And so I find that it really does help.

I mean, once you write about it, it's just out of you.

It just becomes other, right?

It's really healthy that way.

-I mean, it does feel like that sometimes.

It's like a photograph of something and that it's like, "Okay, this is a slice of life."

And it happened.

When I wrote about pregnancy loss and infertility and having to have an abortion, like all that stuff, it was hard to write about.

But as soon as I had it on the page, I was like, "Okay, the page can carry that for a while.

I don't have to."

And it's not that I forgot it, but it's like, it can live over here.

It doesn't have to live in my heart every moment.

-It's beautiful.

-The energy transference.

-Yeah, exactly, exactly.

-Well, we have come to the end.

This was a great conversation.

Thank you so much.

-Thank you, Tamika.

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