>> good evening and welcome to Metro focus, I'm Jack Ford.

New York is facing a toll invasion crisis.

According to a panel appointed to study and combat the invasion threat.

The 16 member group found to be problem spiked after the pandemic threatening the transit systems financial stability and tearing up the social fabric of New York.

They have come up with recommendations to address the issue without aggressive policing which critics say unfairly targets the city's most vulnerable.

For more on possible solutions we are joined by the cochair of the panel, Rose Pierre who serves as Executive Director director at the Institute for poverty policy and research.

An attorney and the former president of the New York City Bar Association.

Welcome to both of you and thank you for joining us.

Lots to talk about so let's start with a sense of the magnitude of the problem.

Rose, let me come to you and give us what the panel was dealing with here?

>> as a panel we were looking at the issue of fair and told Eve Asian across the entire system so that includes buses, subways, commuter rails, bridges and tunnels.

What we learn from our work over the better half of one year was the issue of fair evasion is a serious problem for the MTA and certainly the impact is very serious for New Yorkers.

Looking in total across the system it is $690 million.

Again, that is a very serious problem for New Yorkers when we are seeing this literally tear the social fabric of our communities.

For example when you look at buses which have the highest rate of evasion, something like 380 $5 million of lost revenue due to evasion and we see the same to a lesser level on subways but across the system millions, hundreds and millions of dollars are being lost to this issue.

>> significant financial impact.

Talk about some of the findings of the panel.

Let me come to you and talk about it more.

If you ask anyone involved in the transportation system and they said fair evasion, what are we talking about?

People would say people jumping the turnstiles in the subway but it does not sound like that was the primary one that people suspected it to be.

What did you find?

>> when I was first approached by Jeremy to join the panel that was my reaction.

I thought how are you going to stop teenagers from jumping turnstiles without sending them to Rikers and the truth is that the subways where the main source of fair evasion is not jumping turnstiles, its emergency slam gates that are open by someone coming out, leaving the system opens the gate and then people who are lined up to pay their fares see the gate and stream through and it becomes like a conga line.

So among the recommendations to address fair evasion is to look for ways to replace the fair gate system in the subways so that there is no need to maintain the gates.

New gates will default to open so that in case of emergency you don't have to have a different exit, they will all be open and you can leave.

So among our recommendations was let's use technology to minimize the opportunities for fair evasion and maximize the sense that it is a friendly system, these new gates are ones that are clear, not corkscrews that you have to maneuver through to get out.

>> like jail cell doors.

>> exactly, exactly.

>> rose, let me come back to you to talk about some findings and possible remedies.

You mentioned before the fact that it was buses that provided a higher amount of evasion violations and dollars lost.

Roger talked about suggestions for the subway system, what about buses and how is it that buses are the ones because people who travel buses say I can't get on the bus and Lisette got a card, so how is it that buses and up being the most significant site of violations and what is the panel suggesting?

>> evasion happens a couple of ways.

You have people that literally come on the bus and either do not have -- cap through the Omni system where you can use a card or smart phone or literally put money into the box or use your Metro card, people are choosing not to pay at all or not putting enough in terms of the total fair to ride on the bus.

Also some people are literally just getting on on the back of the bus and if you recall in the report talks about during COVID for health and safety purposes, riders were directed to enter the bus from the back.

One of our recommendations in this regard to stem the tide of fair evasion is to ensure that there is the appropriate messaging but also we are calling for increased numbers of special investigators.

Part of the team that literally checked if you have paid your fare.

These are civilians that are part of the MTA and they have been focused on the express service.

But the recommendation is not only do we do it on SBS but also put that enforcement on the regular bus service.

>> Roger, let me jump in with you on this and that's the notion of how to we police this?

I suspect if you lined up 10 people who take the subways and said what should you do, many if not most or all would say more police.

How did the panel look at that and what did the panel come up with?

>> the panel was clear in terms of the composition and mandate that the solution was not policing.

In fact on buses, no police.

Civilian enforcement.

But even in the subways we do recommend enforcement and that police be involved.

Step one for enforcement by police officers is not police.

Give an official warning that is documented so there is no question that the warning will be consistent and applied.

Step number two is to issue a summons that is not criminal but a summons per our recommendations could be turned into a lesser fine for persons of fading because of lack of funds.

Increasing eligibility for fares, we've got a 50% subsidy on the affairs to persons within New York City who are at hundred percent of the federal poverty level, bringing hundreds of thousands of the working poor into the system in ways that they will be able to afford on the subways and buses.

The other component is to involve the community in whatever enforcement there will be.

We are recommending so-called no evasion stations where there will be announcements prior to actual enforcement saying this is what is going to happen and we will involve community members in educating the public.

In making applications for their fares available at the stations and we will make clear that what is going on is a desire to ensure everyone is paying their fares for two different reasons.

To sustain the system that is vital to maintain the economic engine of the tri-state area but also if you are someone paying your fare and you see a stream of people walking through the emergency gate, not paying, you ask yourself why am I doing this?

We need to instill a civic duty, a sense that I must pay this because it is required by law but as a resident and member of the community, the city, I should do so to support the system.

>> I've got about one minute and a half, so last question, Rose.

I mentioned that part of the focus of the panel was to look at whether there was a disparate effect on the black and Latino communities in terms of enforcement.

What did you find and any suggestions?

>> Roger just outlined it extensively in terms of enforcement.

What we talk about in the report is we want enforcement to be a firm and fair.

We acknowledge the work of our colleagues on the panel, David Jones with community services who was in the forefront in the highlighting the impact of enforcement actions on black and brown communities so in our report as Roger outlined, we want enforcement to be firm, yet fair and ensure enforcement efforts happen throughout all neighborhoods, all communities, that these actions are done equitably and in all neighborhoods throughout New York.

>> one last question, 30 seconds left so the panel did a lot of work, came up with a lot of findings and recommendations.

Are you optimistic that they will be implemented?

>> yes.

The MTA has committed to replacing fair gates in the subways.

Committed to increasing the numbers of actors, spreading them throughout different parts of the system.

There are many other recommendations such as increased eligibility for fares that will require legislative action but we have had good reactions from stakeholders including governmental stakeholders on these recommendations so we are very hopeful that many, not all >> >> will be enforced over time.

Good work by both of you in the entire panel.

I'm sure New Yorkers will be pleased to hear there will be a focus on all of this and that money can be utilized.

Thank you for the work on the panel and spending time talking to us.

Take care now.

>> thank you.