[upbeat music] - Just ahead on Black Issues Forum a special look at the legacy of Muhammad Ali, and what he was fighting for outside of the ring.

Stay with us.

[upbeat music] ♪ Welcome to Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

This year, Ken Burns released an eight hour documentary series on PBS about the heavyweight boxing legend Muhammad Ali.

There were numerous facets of the champs life, but today we're going to examine his influence as a social justice warrior, through the eyes of some North Carolina champions for equality.

In a moment, we'll meet our panel, but first, this North Carolinian shares how he is fighting to empower communities through economic self-sufficiency.

[jazz music] - I am LaVelle Moton, head men's basketball coach at North Carolina Central University.

[upbeat music] There wasn't a lot of people that looked like me in the early '80's on TV, that was a true representation of me.

All of a sudden, I see this guy, he's a bold, he's brass, he's confident.

And it instantly just resonated with myself and my brother.

And I just became a fan.

[upbeat music] I asked my mom for Christmas to get me the Everlast boxing suit, because I wanted to be like Muhammad Ali.

I heard him talk about how great he was, but also heard him talk about how great he wanted his people to be.

And that meant a lot to me that let me know that he was thinking about those in situations, such as myself.

When we hear this cliche of the goat, right?

And they use it so casually, that term was really a direct correlation to him indicating the greatest of all time.

And that's why I believe he's the greatest of all time.

[jazz music] He stood up for us when there wasn't a lot of sacrifices being made on our behalf.

He did it during the time where the world was really, really segregated, and black people were looking for leadership and it was unpopular at that particular time because, all of our leaders was killed, the Medgar Evers's, the Martin Luther King's, the Malcolm X's, Ali gave it all up.

Right, his livelihood, his wife, his kids, and say, "Look, I'm staying in the firm and convicted in my beliefs, we'll go find another way, but I'm not gonna go back in that box of ring, and I'm not going to fight anybody else's war."

Outside of being a great champion, and having love for self, and raising your self esteem level, what he taught me is that, life is just really a real life Monopoly board game.

In order to win, you gotta have a seat at the table.

And the goal is to own the, the homes, the property, the land, the utilities, the water, the electric, the gas, that's the goal because you accumulate wealth.

My friends and I, my childhood friends and I, we started a construction development company called Raleigh Raised Development.

So what we've done in certain Raleigh neighborhoods, including my own form and neighborhood lane street, is we went back in, and we're gonna redevelop and build the affordable housing.

You know, I come from unfortunate situations.

I was labeled an outcast, I'm from the have-nots.

I know what it's like for society to throw you a curve ball and wonder where your next meal is coming from.

And so I always had this dream and said to myself, if and when I ever make it out of these circumstances, I'm gonna come back and have tangible programs in place to help these people, because I understand their challenges and difficulties.

I'm fighting for my family.

I'm fighting for my kids.

I'm fighting for my community, I'm fighting for my neighborhood.

I'm fighting for my people, I'm fighting for my team, I'm fighting for my school.

I'm fighting for my single mothers.

I'm fighting for the marginalized and disenfranchised kids.

I'm fighting for the voiceless, I'm the voice of the people.

I guess I'm the people's change [chuckles] in a way.

[upbeat music] - Right now, joining us to talk about how athletes can use their platforms to fight for justice and help empower communities.

I wanna welcome Errol Reese, co-host of The Sports Shop radio show, and Dr. Erin Moore, executive director of the Center for Racial and Social Justice at Shaw University.

Erroll, you know, we listened to coach Moton, and one of the things that he talks about is how no one gave it up like Ali did.

You know, what are your thoughts on what athletes today are giving up for social justice?

- Well, first of all, thank you for having me.

They're giving up a lot.

You'll be surprised.

I think that there's a vast majority of people, particularly athletes, that are making a sacrifice.

My only issue with them was particularly a few months ago during COVID and the protests within Britain coming out and being out front is that, and I use the metaphor, let's make sure, I want you to take the helm, but let's make sure we understand what helm you're taking.

Otherwise, if we're emerging, we're coming out front being really vocal about what's going on, let's make sure we understand what it's all about.

- Everybody's fighting for something, and Erin, you know, at Shaw University, that is the home of the largest civil rights movement forwarded by students that we know of our time.

And so it's really appropriate, that we have you here to represent the center, but can you share some of the challenges that students face today, in trying to achieve social justice for themselves as opposed to what the kids were facing back during Ali's time?

- Well, thank you again for having me here.

And I'm proud to be a part of Shaw University's historic legacy.

And I think even though we may think that the times are different and the situation's different, what the students were fighting for in the 1960s, what Ali was fighting for, and what our students today are fighting for, is the right to exist.

It's the right to be themselves unapologetically.

Ali said that, "I'm gonna be a Muslim, I'm going to worship the way I'm going to worship.

I'm going to fight and stand for my beliefs and either you're gonna accept me, or you're not gonna accept me."

And I think what we're seeing right now with the young people today, sadly, we've had to have the cry Black Lives Matter.

We've had to say that, yes we matter, we have the right to exist.

We're fighting so that we don't get killed and gunned down by the police.

We're fighting to end gun violence in our communities and in our schools.

And on a deeper level, we're fighting for an existential right to exist as human beings.

You know, we're facing this, you know, very serious climate crisis.

I mean young people today are fighting for their future and the future of their children and for their families.

So, existence, and if the freedom and the right to exist in your own skin, the way that the creator has made you, the way for you to live a full life, that's a universal struggle, and that's a struggle that sadly, we're still having to fight.

- So, the question is why people sacrifice and why they don't.

I mentioned there are plenty of athletes that are sacrificing, but we look at the ones that don't, they do it for various reasons.

One is that, they'll try to protect their brand in terms of, if I be out front, if I go hard this way, I may lose some financial support.

I may lose some endorsements, particularly athletes at the professional level.

If you go one sub bullet below that one, particularly with the white athletes, they have a whole different kind of circumstances.

Yeah, they have the threat of endorsements, the threat of losing money, but they had to stay in called family and friends because they obviously, some of them, not all of them, they were raised in an environment of entitlement and privilege, as a brave right if you will.

And they may go against that because if you out fighting for social injustice and racial equality, and all those buzzwords that we fight for each and every day, they may have a hard time with a conversation at the dinner table, particularly around Thanksgiving.

Because they wasn't raised that way.

My thought is this though, were you a athlete, were you a talk show host, radio host, TV host or whatever, that collectively, if you can understand what it means to be pulled over, to be red line, if you will, what it means to be treated like not a human, you will clear understand, why we fight for what we fight for each and every day.

- We also sat down with a coach who is making a name for the softball program at Duke University, which won the 2021 ACC Championship.

She talks about her work for equality for young women in sports and beyond.

[jazz music] - I am Marissa Young and my players know me as coach Young.

I'm the head softball coach at Duke.

[jazz music] I would describe myself as a really hard worker, and I'm a mother of four, and at work a mother of 25.

And I just am blessed to be able to coach and mentor young women in the prime of their life, through the game of softball.

The opportunities that we have these days and the platform that it has provided us to fight other causes and journeys has been tremendous.

[jazz music] I think Muhammad Ali was the greatest because he was not only a tremendous competitor in the boxing ring, but he had a huge impact on the community outside and globally and as a humanitarian.

[jazz music] All my life I saw him as the greatest in the boxing ring.

And it's been a pleasure to get to know what his life, what it meant outside of that ring, the impact that he's had on so many people in his community and also globally.

[jazz music] His confidence and persona was incredible.

You know, there was no one like him, his confidence was something that I admired and wanted my players to still take with him as they take the field of really believing that you're great.

And I think as women, sometimes we struggle to do that.

I think that we're so quick to see our shortcomings, to be super critical of ourselves or to feel that we can't speak about what we do well, because we're not being humble.

The game of softball is incredibly fast paced.

And I think anybody that watches, it loves it immediately because of the pace and the energy that these women bring to the game.

You do have to have that fight in you, that confidence, that go-getter mentality, because you're gonna fail seven out of 10 times in your butts.

And to have that mental toughness to keep going up there and believing that you're gonna get it that next time is huge.

So, we work really hard to develop that resilience in our women.

I am so proud of our young athletes.

I think that with everything that's gone on in the world the last couple of years, it has really provided the opportunity for them to now have the freedom and the platform to speak out about those things.

I feel like as an athlete in my time, it was hush hush, and you had to deal with those things in silent.

[jazz music] In May, I took my team to Muhammad Ali's museum in Louisville.

We were in Louisville for the ACC tournament.

And again, with everything that's gone on in the country, we've been working really hard as a team to not just have that, be a one-time conversation, but to keep that at the forefront.

At a young age hearing about how he stood his ground with not enlisting in the army was huge.

- No, I will not go 10,000 miles to go help kill innocent people.

- And being able to go to the museum with the team this year was really nice to be able to wrap his whole life together, to see how, you know, his lifetime progressed through the Olympics and into his later years.

I'm fighting for women, particularly opportunities for women of color, and those from lower socioeconomic status, so that they can have opportunities at Duke.

That I know will change not only their future, but hopefully future generations.

[jazz music] - Erin, I wanna ask you, you know, we have women athletes now who are making a name for themselves, and coach Young talks about her efforts to really, boost the confidence and esteem and just, empower young women athletes.

Do you think that they have the same kind of leverage as male athletes to push for social justice and use their platforms to make demands?

- Oh, absolutely.

I think what we've seen from female athletes, these last four or five years has been incredible.

They have really taken stands in many ways in which male athletes have not.

In the WNBA in particular, we've had several of the basketball players forego a season, forego their contracts, even some sponsorships to fight for social justice.

You have Maya Moore who gave up a season to fight for the release of a young man, she believed was wrongly convicted.

You have a Natasha Cloud, who gave up a year to work in social justice.

And she was concerned, she was one of the first female athletes to get a contract with Converse.

And what Converse did in terms of admiring what she did, they said, "We're gonna continue to pay your WMBA salary, even though you're not gonna be playing this year."

So, she took that risk, you know, very much in the same way that Mohammed Ali took that risk in terms of forfeiting opportunities for wealth and to make money.

He's like, "This is important, we have to stand up for social justice."

And then we look at what the Atlanta Dream did, in terms of fighting against their own particular owner, who said, "I don't support Black Lives Matter."

They felt that some of her actions were reprehensible, and they stood up and tried to encourage people to vote.

And they began to be politically active and engaged in the Georgia election.

And many people believe that they help sway the congressional election towards Raphael Warnock, who was their owners opponent.

And those are just women in WNBA.

We've seen women in soccer, the United States Women's Soccer team fight for equal pay, which is very interesting.

These are women who've won consistently the last 10 years or so, whereas the middle soccer team has not.

So in America where we talk about we're gonna reward performance, it's glaring to see women who have performed, who have met the standard, not only not get paid, but don't get the bonuses, where the men were still getting a higher salary, even though they weren't performing.

We're seeing women in tennis, in gymnastics fighting for mental health.

So female athletes, and this is just in recent years, consistently have been fighting for social justice, not only for themselves and for other players, but for society at large.

So yes, they're absolutely leveraging their power.

- Very much present in that space.

Erroll, what do you think, how about the power and influence of women athletes today?

- Oh, absolutely it is significant, my colleague mentioned so many people.

I mean, the list is so long.

I gotta show up my list just a little bit, but, I would add to that, when you look at leaders particularly sports women hey are leading men.

We can look at Michele Roberts who is the executive director of the national basketball association, players association, first in the history of that organization.

And she's leading Swin Cash, who is the vice president of operations for the new Orleans pelicans.

And the list goes on several assistant coaches are now in the NBA coaching men.

And so, if we can look at it from that perspective, we have advanced significantly in that space, a lot more work is left to be done.

I really admire the people that my colleague mentioned like Megan Rapinoe, people like that.

And of course, Naomi Osaka and Serena Williams, the whole list.

[mumbles] mentioned a local individual that I collaborate with all the time, who is a former Virginia Cavalier Porcari.

She is on the forefront leading this effort, around every aspects of women leadership in sports, social justice that's Dr. Deborah Stroman of UNC Chapel Hill, who is on all platforms, is active every single day, pushing the agenda.

So, we gonna have to look down the street to see someone that's doing some really great things in this space.

And I applaud her for all the work that she's done in this space.

- Well, women are certainly making their presence known in sports, always have, and you know, to some degree there's an invisibility, but we are making those strides.

Erin, what would you say are the challenges ahead for women in sports in terms of, you know, fighting for that equal pay?

- I think that's one of the major issues that women are facing.

The equal pay, access to benefits, access to even profit sharing with ownership of the teams, moving into coaching and into ownership, but also leveraging more issues for social justice, bringing more women into sports, taking some of these sports and making them professional sports.

Many people didn't think that the WMBA would make it or that they would last, and they have been doing exceptionally well, trying to promote women's soccer.

And perhaps even women's softball will become also a professional sport.

So, just providing those opportunities for young girls who are growing up in sports, to have the opportunity to make a living in sports the same way that men have.

- So, what do you think about that Erroll?

I mean, she mentioned the WNBA, and I'm thinking about all of the period of the protest movement and the great influence that they indeed did have.

- Oh, absolutely.

She mentioned that they were out there before a lot of people were.

But Minnesota, I mean a mile more and a whole crew that they boycotted, this was set out, so sedans, if you will, they make sure that their voices were heard.

And initially when it happened that they were frowned upon from a lot of people, but they didn't stop there.

They was really diligent in their effort.

And I applaud them, is really, they were out there even before the NBA guys were, and they led the way, and that's a great thing in my opinion.

- And I'd like to think that Muhammad Ali would be proud of these women.

- Absolutely.

- Finally, we met a young man who was a basketball standout in high school and junior college, but has moved into the sports, entertainment and management space to make an impact.

He shares what he's fighting for, for himself and for those around him.

[jazz music] - I'm Arvetra Domonic Jones, I am an artist, I'm an advocate for sports and entertainment professionals.

[jazz music] Sports has always been like a, like a distraction for me.

I grew up in Aberdeen, North Carolina, which today still is very racially charged place to grow up as a black man.

From middle school and time I wrestled with identity, and as early as I can remember wrestling with literacy, be it finance or whatever it was, basketball helped me.

It helped me surround myself with like-minded individuals who may have had the same struggles, and it also helped me to understand that, you know, I'm needed in different areas of my life.

I didn't get a chance to see Mohammad Ali live, when we were being in school, and I would see like highlights of him, of his greatness, how easy it was for him to maneuver different places.

I felt like he was just practicing.

And I found that attractive.

I found that to be powerful.

And then, like, then I found out it was like one aspect of his life.

I think he opened up my intellect around sport.

My life, my journey in this sports and entertainment room started after the loss of my daughter.

[somber music] After crying my eyes out for days, something came over me and told me to dedicate my life to something else.

What I do right now, with professional athletes and entertainers is I help them create their brand.

For example, I have a girl right now, who's playing basketball Armenia.

We loaded up her Instagram with professional photos, within a month, she got an interview to go to try out.

She made a team, she made a club, sent me a contract.

The sport is easy.

Now, what can you do after, and during that, that's gonna help feed your legacy, your name.

Muhammad Ali gave something to us.

He gave his life to us.

What he gave for me was, "Hey, you have an opportunity Kavetra, to do something with what you see in this life.

And it's unlimited.

You can be the greatest."

Striving to be completely peaceful at all times, I think has helped me get answers and get things much quicker.

What I'm fighting for is peace.

[calm music] - Erroll, let me ask you, are you surprised to hear that this young man is fighting for peace?

- Well, initially I was, but then I thought about it, for the countless times I interview young people, they have a whole sense of awareness.

They want peace, they want equality.

They want mental breaks.

Things that we never thought about when we their age, but so much is going around in this world, that they are attracted to and have to deal with.

It's a whole different paradigm.

So I get that.

So having said that, no, I guess I'm not surprised.

- That's interesting because you know, a big conversation kinda bubbled up around, you know, taking a break, taking that mental health break and the fact that look, real athletes, don't take that mental health break.

But now we know, look real athletes honor their health, honor their mental health.

- Absolutely, and you often surprise where you see guys who make millions of dollars, whether younger or older guys, they still need that break, and they are coming forth with it not because, it's the thing to talk about, before it wasn't the thing to talk about.

- Erin, let me ask you, how is the social justice struggle that today's young people are facing, kind of the same or different from the civil rights struggle of their grandparents generations?

- Well, I think the sad part is, is that the struggle continues.

I think we were lulled into complacency in the '80s and '90s and early 2000s.

We thought the society was progressing toward a certain place of not necessarily equality, but acceptance.

And what we're finding now, and I think it's been a shock to the system for quite a few Americans, is that no, that sense of acceptance is not there.

And that you have a whole cadre of people who are willing to do whatever it takes to prevent people from achieving justice, to prevent people from having a quality of life, or just even a basic life.

And so when that young man says, he wants to talk about peace, I'm not surprised.

With the issue that we're facing is that there are people who don't want to have peace with you or do not want have peace with us.

There are people who are willing to resort to violence to achieve their ends.

And so the prayer for peace that people have during the holiday season, his wish for peace, people's advocacy and fighting for peace is real.

Because we're coming into a world, or we're living in a world where people don't want you to have that sense of peace or that sense of normalcy.

This is that you don't have that right to just have a normal everyday life with no problems.

And there's so many people who are really trying to prohibit that from happening.

And so we applaud this young man and others like him who are looking for different avenues and different ways to achieve that peace or to achieve justice.

Because I think during the sixties and the seventies, we certainly looked to the political process to do that.

We look for advocacy and voting to do that.

And we're finding now that we still have to continue to do that.

But I think what this younger generation is doing, is also doing that economically.

Using our capital and our resources to fight for justice, to come to the table with more resources and with a sense of equality to say, "Look, this is what I'm bringing to the table.

I have just as much, if not more than you.

So, you're gonna have to pay attention to some of my issues and some of my concerns because I have these resources."

So I think we're going to have to constantly adapt and look for new ways to challenge the system and to leverage everything that we have, whether it's through voting, whether it's through advocacy, whether it's through protest, whether it's through economics, we're gonna do whatever we need to do to seek justice and to maintain justice.

- You hit on all cylinders right there.

And you know, one of the things that Muhammad Ali was advocating for was economic independence, and self-sufficiency.

Erroll, you know, as say young people like Kavetra, are helping people to establish that economic independence and their branding and so forth in the sports arena, is that power giving them the power to influence or break down racial barriers out there, you think?

- Absolutely, that's a great question, because, as we said now, name, image and lightness is a real thing, particularly with kids in college, where now they can earn, they can make a living.

And you don't have to go to Copa America due to, it could be a restaurant down the street or a mechanic shop down in the corner, where they wanna invest in you, you can invest in yourself.

So now, as opposed to playing your sports, various sports that you're playing, you can not make a significant amount of money.

And we've seen that band play out right now, as we speak, is some of the larger environments is some of the power five schools where some of the SBC use, they are taking advantage of the opportunity as well.

So I clearly understand what the branding aspect is, so, you're branding yourself.

You're your own corporation.

And I love to see that happening that way.

- Well, Errol Reese, Dr. Erin Moore, thank you both for being here today.

- Thank you.

- Thank you, enjoyed it.

- I wanna thank all of today's guests, and we invite you to engage with us on Twitter or Instagram, using the hashtag, #blackissuesforum.

You can also find our full episodes on PBS, nc.org/black issues forum, or listen at any time on apple iTunes, Spotify, or Google podcasts.

For Black Issues Forum, I'm Deborah Holt Noel.

Thanks for watching.

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