From WXXI news.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made nearly ten years ago, August of 2015, when then New York Governor Andrew Cuomo was boasting about these so-called Buffalo billion.

A massive state investment had led to the completion of Solar City, a solar panel manufacturing facility.

Owner Elon Musk had made big promises, and Governor Cuomo repeated those promises ten years ago 5000 jobs statewide, a thousand roofs a week outfitted with local solar panels, 1460 high tech manufacturing jobs at the Buffalo plant alone.

As journalist Jimmy Veal Kine reported earlier this week for Gothamist and WNYC, the latest count of statewide jobs is around 2900, not 5000 or 3500.

Whatever the numbers that were promised, they're short.

The New York Times reports that rather than producing a thousand roofs worth of solar a week, the company averaged 21 roofs a week of solar by the end of 2022.

And that plant now produces chargers and components for Tesla vehicles.

Musk and his companies didn't get just a huge state investment.

They got a sweet deal on rent $1 a year.

In fact.

And now New York State has to consider whether to extend that sweet deal or ask Tesla to start paying more.

The state can also go after Tesla for failing to meet its promises, and projections on jobs.

Here's how The New York Times reported it this morning.

Quote Two Democratic legislators are introducing a bill on Wednesday aimed at Mr. Musk and the so-called Buffalo Billion project, in which the state spent $959 million to build and equip a plant that Mr. Musk's company leases for $1 a year to operate a solar panel and auto component factory.

The bill would require an audit of the state subsidy deal to identify waste, fraud and abuse committed by private parties to the contract.

It would determine whether the company Tesla was meeting job creation targets, making promised investments, paying enough rent and honoring job training commitments.

If Tesla was found not to be in compliance, the state could claw back state benefits, impose penalties or terminate contracts.

End quote in a statement, the two Democrats pushing this particular bill said, quote, it is the height of hypocrisy that Elon Musk, the man who is dismantling federal agencies and doing enormous damage on the basis of wildly unsubstantiated claims of waste, fraud and abuse, is the beneficiary of one of the biggest shadiest subsidy subsidy deals of all time.

End quote.

State Republicans used to hammer the Buffalo billion as the ultimate form of wasting taxpayer dollars.

Now they have to decide if Musk's companies could should continue to get special treatment.

And my guest this hour include one of the journalists who helped break this story for Gothamist and WNYC.

Jimmy Veal is back with us.

Jimmy, thanks for being here.

Always a pleasure, Evan.

Welcome to Assemblyman Patrick Burke from New York State, district number 142.

Mr.

Assembly member, thanks for being with us.

Hey, happy to be here.

Brian Schneck is with us, vice chair of the United Auto Workers New York State Community Action Program, among other titles.

Brian, welcome.

Thanks for being with us.

Thank you for having us.

And Keith Goldstein is with us, a Tesla owner, in the past and in the present.

Right.

Keith?

yes, that is correct.

Thank you for being with us, Keith.

So a lot to talk about here.

Let me start with Jimmy.

You know, the story that, that you wrote for Gothamist earlier this week really got a lot of our attention here because, I want to start with the way things have changed with the view of the Buffalo billion.

If it's changed.

I mean, certainly I heard Republicans call on the show for years saying, you got to hammer this.

This is a taxpayer boondoggle.

I assume you heard the same things from them over the years, right?

Well, I am old enough to have been around Albany when former Governor Andrew Cuomo announced this deal at first in 2013 with a company called Slovo which was run by or had ties to Elon Musk, who was the CEO of SolarCity.

And now Tesla.

So this deal got started back then, and it was promised as the salvation of Buffalo, thousands of jobs, $1 billion of investment jumpstarting the economy, creating the spin off section.

And the idea was to create a facility where you had the state owned the facility and have it essentially be leased to some kind of private company.

And the way Cuomo sold this was that this means that if the company goes up bankrupt, then the state still owns the assets.

So the state is protected.

what critics said, and there weren't too many of them at the beginning, was that this means that the state has all the risk for this facility.

So there were some Republicans over the years raising concerns.

But generally, when this project was first announced in 2013 and when ground was broken on the eve of Governor Cuomo's 2014 reelection campaign, there was generally good feelings.

And even the critics were not getting much oxygen in the public discussion.

Okay, and now, ten plus years later, what are the numbers that you see and what is the situation with this company?

whether they're meeting projections, falling short, there's always promises on jobs, and sometimes there's mechanisms for the state to claw back.

Set the scene for us there.

Jimmy.

Well, the contract between state entities and Tesla has been amended more than a dozen times over the past decade, and there are seemingly innocuous changes that have had a big impact.

So, for example, in the initial contract, the jobs at the Buffalo factory were to have been, quote, high tech manufacturing jobs.

Then they were just manufacturing jobs, then they were just jobs at the manufacturing facility.

And so what we've heard from people familiar with the operations of the facility, including legislators or former workers, is that there's a lot of data entry going on there that these are not high tech jobs, that they are not the highest paying jobs.

And what we also know is that there hasn't been any kind of spinoff development in terms of a supply chain that has arisen as a result of this facility.

Now, you said some of the numbers at the beginning of and, eventually Tesla's job target was 1460 people at the Buffalo plant and three 3460 people statewide.

Over time, there have been increases to the deadline during the pandemic.

Tesla got an extension.

It was not on track to meet its job commitments there.

And, now what we know as of December 31st of last year, there are 2064 people in Buffalo, and there are 2883 people around New York State, according to Tesla's progress report.

As you noted, that's short of the 3460 requirement.

And it's one of the reasons that New York state has reopened negotiations with Tesla to sort of amend the deal with the company in order to keep them in facility and, frankly, to avoid fining the company $41 million for failing to hit its targets.

All right.

So let me ask the Assembly member who's with us, Patrick Burke from New York State, district number 142. before we ask you what you want to do in state government now, can I ask you first to characterize what you thought of the Buffalo Billion when it was rolling out a decade plus ago?

Yeah, I mean, I would say one it's in my district.

So $1 billion investment in my district.

You know, you're never going to go complain about.

But there's certainly has always been discomfort with the idea.

One, the one shot this this thing is going to save all and create all these jobs.

I'm always pretty skeptical about it.

like it's happened not just here in New York State and in Buffalo, but across the country where local governments, state governments get shaken down for these huge promises and they very rarely work out.

so I would say, you know, the the construction jobs for the project were very real, but, skeptical about, a long term, viability, you know, of the project.

And so now what should happen?

Assembly Member Burke.

I mean, we have to, you know, get into a really tough negotiation.

I mean, one, you know, there's been a little bit of an escalation of of, like, Tesla's role.

There has been this the like there's been sold that like, Tesla came in and save this, save this thing as it was falling apart in Solar City instead of the reality is that Elon Musk's cousins were a part of this.

Elon Musk was always a major investor of SolarCity.

Like this is this is not like he came in and fix a problem.

He wasn't the savior.

It was always part of his deal.

and so you can't you can't ignore any of this without ignoring the man, because the company of Tesla is intertwined with Elon Musk's as this visionary.

Right?

So it's a completely overvalued company.

you know, it's its price to earnings ratio is way out of whack.

So, you know, even comparing it to other carmakers, it is you know, it is it is beyond the standard of what you would expect.

So, you know, Tesla's price to earnings ratio is 121.

You know, point something dollars in the average is $16.86.

So like you're looking at a company that is way overvalued is completely speculative, not on what they're building or making, but it's on this perception of Elon Musk as a visionary in his company is going to take us into the future, and people are very much in doubt of that.

So, like, we have to we have to, you know, if that's the company that's there, we're stuck with the plant.

We have to do our jobs, but we have to get a certainly a much better deal and, and expect much greater transparency.

Like, like really reality.

Like we don't need a plant to do many of the jobs that are being facilitated there.

Not that it's a good investment anyway.

So if you if you broke down like $1 billion, even if they hit their goal of 5000 jobs at $200,000 per job, I'm not sure how great that is.

but you didn't need a factory for most of those jobs anyway.

So, while we're negotiating this, like, I certainly want to take into consideration their labor practices as well.

you know, I would personally, and I think legislators should have access to the plant and be able to stop in and and see what's going on in the actual facility.

It seems rather opaque these days.

So, you know, as we negotiate a new deal, I just want it to be as is, as tight as possible, going forward.

Well, and before I bring in your colleagues, let me just ask you a couple other things there.

Assembly member Burke.

$1 a year in rent.

Should go.

To what number do you agree with your colleagues?

$2 million a something else.

I mean, you know, I like it.

Obviously, it shouldn't, like, you know, $1 is offensive and odious that the richest person in the world, like the, you know, but reframe it that the taxpayers of the state of New York are investing in Tesla and investing in Elon Musk.

Not actually not even just investing there, subsidizing it.

One, it's clearly a bad investment in general to to get in bed with Tesla right now.

If we're already stuck there, like we should be extracting as much as we possibly can.

Certainly like, like pretty much a free space.

is unacceptable.

Like what that number should be.

You know, obviously, like, whatever.

I don't know what what should be the standard rent for that type of facility is what they should pay.

Okay, okay.

And now I also want to ask you if, well, if critics are going to say whether it's your colleagues in the legislature or elsewhere, if they have questions about whether your complaints and whether your Democratic colleagues complaints are based on who owns the company, not what they've done.

But but the high profile of Elon Musk right now, in other words, if somebody else owned this company, would you be taking the same position?

Assembly member or monitor?

Absolutely.

So you one you cannot decouple the man with the company.

The company is the man.

I just I just explained how, you know, the price to earnings ratio is completely out of whack.

That only happens because Tesla is so deeply tied to Elon Musk.

So everything Elon Musk does affects Tesla, affects Tesla's future, affects the people in investing in Tesla, US, New York State, New York state, taxpayers.

So you can't decouple it.

Now you can also like I'm not going to ignore the political reality that he is.

Maybe I think he might be public enemy number one, a broad across the country, but certainly within Democrats he is like that, that that is just the reality of it.

I think he's earned it.

But for me at least, it's not a cheap shot.

This is in my district.

The people in my community aren't benefiting enough from the plant.

And, you know, and they have substandard labor practices.

So there are a bunch of reasons.

Certainly.

I can only speak for myself.

I can't speak to what my colleagues are doing.

why, you know, we need to zero in on Tesla, largely because I, you know, the richest person in the world.

And his company got $1 billion subsidy from the taxpayers of New York State.

Let me turn back to journalist Jimmy Veal.

Kind.

Do you see a political figure around this issue because of who owns it?

Jimmy?

Well, absolutely.

I think that if you look at the bill that was introduced or unveiled today by the two legislators from Manhattan, it has an acronym Doge de oggi.

I also spoke with Assembly member Pat Fahy, a senator, excuse me, Senator Pat Fahy, a former Assembly member from, the Albany area.

She is introducing legislation that would specifically target Tesla's five dealerships across the state.

And when I asked her about the legislation, she said, yeah, it's Elon Musk.

It's absolutely him.

one thing that was notable to me, Evan, in going through and reporting this story, was I asked state officials about their renegotiation regarding Riverbend and I said, did you reach out to any other companies?

Did you think about finding perhaps a new partner, perhaps an open bid on this facility to the extent that anyone would be interested?

And the answer was a flat no, which I thought was was interesting and somewhat telling, and maybe gets at something of what the Assembly member is trying to push for in terms of greater transparency and involvement.

So, listeners, if you want to weigh in on this, this, I don't know, there's growing effort, I suppose, from Democrats at the state level to at least try to claw back some of the money that has been given to Elon Musk's companies over the years for what they were doing in Buffalo with what was SolarCity and Tesla.

If you want to weigh in on any of these aspects, I've got emails from people who want to talk about owning a Tesla these days.

We're going to talk to Keith about that in a moment.

But you can call the program toll free if you like.

It's 844295 talk.

It's 844295825526365 here in Rochester.

2639994.

You can email the program connections at WXXI dawg.

You can join the conversation if you're watching on their WXXI news YouTube channel.

Join the chat there.

Brian Schneck is the vice chair of the UAW New York State Community Action Program, among other hats he wears.

And I want to ask Brian how UAW views not only the debate about what the state should do, but about what Tesla and these companies have been given over the years.

So you want to take some time and tell us your position on that?

Brian.

once again, thank you for having the UAW participate.

so the UAW, obviously, we advocate and fight for our membership, but we also advocate and fight for all working people, which are the tax payers in New York State.

And we find it highly offensive that we have a, a, a company such as Tesla, just exploiting every opportunity of corporate welfare today.

We find it's so ironic that the one that is in, that's trying to find the fraud, waste and abuse on a federal side is the biggest benefactor of exactly that here in New York State.

How ironic is that?

So I guess he knows exactly what he's looking for.

Because when he's doing his his study, he with his Dodge committee, effectively, he's looking for people just like him.

so wait, wait, wait, what what irks me as a as a New York, as a resident, New York State as a trade unionist, as a UAW member is his atrocious, atrocious, record what it comes down to how he treats his work for us in this country, whether he likes it or not.

Workers still have the right to form unions.

Workers still have the right to engage in collective bargaining.

However, Elon Musk and his companies are notorious union busters.

They effectively take the National Labor Relations Act and wipe themselves with it.

That is grossly offensive.

That is un-American.

So why are we giving Elon Musk, Tesla and all the other corporate welfare, kings out there and union busters a free ride in New York state?

I think we should be doing an examination of every corporation in New York state.

Let's not just focus on Tesla and Elon Musk because he's the shiny object at the moment.

Brian, let me let me turn over.

Let me follow that point.

First of all, to to be clear to fact check, he's not getting a free ride.

It's a dollar.

The rent's a dollar.

So.

Oh I'm sorry.

Now.

right.

But but I want to ask you, I want to I want to follow up with your point about about labor this morning, in advance of the program, we got an email from a listener named Alex who said, what is the status on the Tesla factory workers who were fired for taking part in unionizing?

I don't think we should be subsidizing any anti-union corporations.

That's from Alex and so I, I tried to find some comments that Musk himself has made about this in about one year ago, he sat down for an interview with journalist Andrew Ross Sorkin.

This is what Musk said about unions in his companies.

He said, quote, I disagree with the very idea of unions.

I disagree with anything that pits one part of a company against another.

I don't like anything that creates a lords and peasants kind of thing.

Unions create negativity in a company and a lords and peasants situation.

I know my workers.

I've worked on the line.

We don't need a union.

End quote.

That's what Musk told Andrew Ross Sorkin.

Bryan, what do you make of that?

Well, I, I seen the interview, so I know exactly what you're talking about.

And again, it's offensive.

Elon Musk does not need a union.

His workers to.

That's the difference.

If you know from his viewpoint his ideology, there's no need for organized labor.

But obviously his workers do desire to have unions because there's cases against him all across the country where you just raised the Buffalo facility on on February 15th of 2023, the workers went public.

They announced they are organizing activities.

What was Elon Musk's response?

He fired, fired 30 workers the very next day.

30 people that live in the vicinity of Buffalo that work in this very factory that we're talking about were fired because they stood up for their concerted, and protected right to form a union.

This is America.

What he did is so un-American.

And it's a blatant violation of federal labor law.

Perhaps that's why the Doge is his little thing that he's doing right now.

Was so quick to actually shutter the NLRB office in Buffalo, right.

We know he has that animosity towards the National Labor Relations Board.

He and his other billionaire buddies are trying to find a court that will take on their argument to to declare the National Labor Relations Act invalid, saying it's unconstitutional.

This is the type of guy that we're dealing with.

You know, so so everyone needs to put that in perspective.

All right.

Let me let me turn to Assemblymember Patrick Burke from district 142, just for a thought on that.

Do you think that this company's disposition toward labor should affect how the state views, interacting with them?

Of course.

I mean, it does.

Certainly the leaders of the state, I would I would hope it does.

and that's why, you know, we're talking about the that's why I'd mentioned that earlier.

You know, they have actions with the NLRB.

you know, a secondary bill we're about to submit is that, legislature and their staff with, you know, a company with their staff should be able to enter that facility.

You know, if you are under contract, you know, if you are leasing from the state of New York under certain circumstances, you know, we want to be able to have access to your facility.

Not not dissimilar, like how we can go into a prison to see what's happening there.

Like, I want to see what's happening in that facility.

So we're going to be submitting that bill, you know, today or tomorrow.

we're working on it.

So, but absolutely.

like that's part of the discussion right now.

Like, why are we subsidizing one a billionaire?

you know, someone who doesn't need the resources, but why are we subsidizing a company that has poor labor practices?

All right.

And and and this just the concept that, like, you know, what you said about Elon Musk saying, like, we don't need a union because it puts creates division within the company.

There's already division within every company between management and labor.

And the idea like that's like he's not looking for cohesion, he's looking for power.

And he doesn't want people questioning him.

The only function workers have is to organize together, and he's trying to take that away.

All right.

In a moment we're going to get the Tesla owners perspective.

One other point, though, that I want to ask Jimmy Veal, kind about the journalist who helped break the story with Gothamist and WNYC and has been doing great work on it.

Jimmy, I you know, I don't know how available Elon Musk is for interview.

Haven't been able to get him on connections this year, but, I am curious to know what he would say about the idea that he's out there looking for, tax dollars that have been wasted at the federal level with Doge, and his companies have been big beneficiaries.

I mean, does he tend to ignore that as he commented that I maybe missed anything there?

You know, I do not know what Elon Musk would, would say about that.

I, asked Tesla's public relations department if they wanted to comment for the article that we published on Tuesday.

they did not respond.

I did end up quoting from a jobs report that the company sent to state officials.

It's required to do so every year regarding the operations at the Buffalo plant.

And so I can share with you the conclusion of that letter, quote.

This past year has been another excellent year for Tesla in Buffalo and throughout the state.

Tesla remains committed to making Gigafactory New York a world class, advanced manufacturing center.

So it seems, even from the perspective of the company, that they're happy with their arrangement at the Buffalo facility and that they seem happy with their partnership with the state officials who have, you know, over time, amended the agreement with the company in hopes of of keeping the company happy.

Okay.

Fair enough.

Keith Gold is not and is a Tesla owner.

And Keith, I'm reading what what Tesla ownership groups are saying online.

And they're these debates about some people are selling their their cars.

Senator Mark Kelly of Arizona posted a video saying he's been a proud Tesla owner because he likes the car but can't own it anymore.

He's getting rid of it.

Looking for a new ride?

where are you on that?

thanks for having me on.

I've.

I've called in a couple of times to your station.

I feel honored to be a real guest.

technically, the was registered in my wife's name, so it's.

Oh, you can't dodge it like that, Keith.

But no, we were one of the earlier, purchasers of, Tesla back in, September of 2019.

And we drove to, Mount Kisco to pick it up and, Tesla's gate, Tesla gave us incentives to drive down there, and it's that almost 62,000 miles on it.

And our other than having a wheel bearing, which had to be replaced and, we had a programing problem with an update that the horn did deep.

It's been problem free.

it's a good car.

It's a good car.

Yeah.

And the only thing my my wife's the primary driver of it, and she has no intention to get rid of it.

my wife's by.

I cut off her nose to spite your face.

It costs, other than insurance and she has a propensity to go through tires because she drives, rather aggressively, for a lack of a better word.

We've had three sets of tires on it.

There hasn't been a darn thing wrong with the car.

And, the cost for electricity is nothing because we are fortunate enough to have solar panels.

We'll see.

Buy another one.

Or will we acquire another one?

Unless things change dramatically?

Probably not.

We'll go to a competitor, but we have no intention to get rid of it.

We do have a magnet on it that states that it was bought before Elon went crazy.

And and and there were a couple a week and nobody's taking it off.

But we did have somebody pass us and, they took my wife was driving and they flipped her an obscene gesture.

Oh boy, had we chuckled.

You know, again, it's a good car.

We haven't had problems.

Yeah.

Thank goodness.

Snow.

it doesn't make sense to get rid of it.

Well, and so, Keith, let me also ask you about something that I think will relate to all of our guests, perspectives here.

Got an email from, Riley, who is also a local Tesla owner, and says the following.

I can understand people wanting to boycott Tesla and Musk, but it has to be done in a very specific way.

Sure, boycotting the plant in Buffalo could produce a major hit to Tesla, but the ripple effect could cost so many families their jobs.

Buffalo has many blue collar workers, and those people need jobs.

Whether it's working the plant, installing charging stations, or doing the data management.

For the record, I want to state that just by owning a Tesla, it does not mean that I support Musk or his current ideology.

I bought my car in 2018, before Musk was as prominent or as vocal as he is today.

Many people have asked me if I'm planning to sell my car to avoid the hate of others, but that isn't financially possible for me at the moment.

I don't want to support Musk, but we have to thread the needle carefully so that innocent workers aren't caught up in the storm.

This man is creating.

That's from Riley.

What do you think of that, Keith?

I again, if I'm trying to make a statement, you're not going to change anything by trading in your car because somebody else is eventually going to buy it, or it's going to go to a hotel, and then somebody will eventually buy it.

But if you buy another one, I'm guessing probably not.

unless he changes his mind or, you know, get some mental help.

it just is odd that he's, you know, with his, off the wall comment and his actions.

I'm surprised the board of directors of Tesla haven't taken him aside and told them to shut up.

I would like to endorse the idea, though, of not flicking off or yelling at people driving a Tesla.

That would be a nice start.

I mean, you know, that's not fun to endure for people.

And as Keith mentions here, his family comes into ownership.

before things changed.

So, you know, so I'm kind of sorry that some people are going through that, but, let me let me ask our other guests about this.

So, Assembly member Patrick Burke is with us.

New York state district number 142.

The plants in his district here.

And I want you, Assembly member, not only to respond to what Riley says in the email about not hurting the workers, but also you essentially have Empire State Development saying the same thing they said to Jimmy Veal, kind of for his piece that, you know, that essentially this plant is there already.

It's not going to be a situation where, you know, it makes sense to seek to shut it down because you got hundreds or thousands of workers who would be hurt by that.

So the the question is, Kevin says, the agency's chief operating officer from Empire State Development, how do you get the best deal going forward without harming the local economy?

Is that a is that a concern that you have?

I mean, you know, like Jimmy had said, that he he had spoken to to leadership, in economic development here in the state and that they hadn't even considered, you know, shopping, shopping the plant around to other companies.

So that's a little disappointing.

but but certainly, like, if we're in it and we're stuck with it, like, like we have the plant, it's not going anywhere.

We need we need to keep it operating.

We just need to extract the best deal we possibly can.

You know, as far as you know, Harrah's saying, you know, random Tesla owners like, no, that's not okay.

Like a lot of those people like, you know, whatever their political ideology is, it's just not okay to just wrath people.

Now, civil disobedience is incredibly important.

And, you know, we aren't properly recognizing this country.

We talk about like this potential shift in democracy.

This potential feels like a coup.

Obviously, there was an attempted coup, like it's not in the future.

It's current and it's happening.

And people who aren't elected are empowered broadly.

Elon Musk, you know, being the primary one to to significantly influence how we govern our people, you know, acts of civil disobedience are important, fundamental.

We have to do it.

but don't go harassing people like don't go defacing people's property.

You know, I'm not going to advocate for people to commit crimes.

but certainly we have to stick up to, you know, to the to the bullies in this country, people are causing irreparable harm to this country.

and Elon Musk, you know, he was again, he was sold as this like Tony Stark, Iron Man type of futuristic figure.

He's not that.

He's not that this is a nepo baby who has sort of, you know, just tricked his way through life, and made incredible amounts of money selling himself as something that he isn't.

and now he's got extraordinary power in this country, and he is doing real harm.

He is taking people's jobs away as we speak, but he has caused harm across this country.

So, like, sure, we should avoid as much harm as we can, but the long way to do that is to stop people like this from from having power.

Jimmy Viel, do you get the sense that Empire State development is kind of between a rock and a hard place on this?

Yeah, it definitely seems to be the case.

And officials at Empire State Development note that this was not a deal that they were heavily involved in from the outset.

some of your listeners might remember that this was part of Cuomo's Buffalo billion project, and it was one of the facilities that was developed by Allen Kelly Jaros, who was the head of Suny Polytechnic Institute.

So the division at the time was that this school, which made a very, robust, high tech semiconductor research center in Albany, would spread its wings and build manufacturing facilities around the state.

I think time has judged most of those facilities to have been poor investments.

The one that comes to most most high to mind is, a film hub in Syracuse that cost $15 million and was sold to the county for a dollar.

this plant is paid for.

It's done.

I know we've you've been talking about clawing back subsidies, but Tesla doesn't get cash from the state.

Remember, the state owns the factory.

It just lets Tesla use it under an arrangement where they pay a dollar a year, and they are supposed to employ a specified number of individuals at the plant and in other areas.

So there's not money that can really be clawed back.

It's sort of to you kick the company out or do you negotiate new terms if the company wants to stay that are more favorable, that include perhaps higher rent, that include, more rights of access that Assembly Member Burke has been talking about, that include whatever other provisions you want to to, to push for.

but the thing is, if you do seek another tenant who might be well, we have a great deal of listener feedback and a very specific question for Branch Neck on the other side of this, regarding, competitive conditions in New York State for automakers.

And we've got questions about the Tesla deal, along with some more commentary from Tesla owners as well.

So our our panel can address all of that.

We've got to take this only break, and we'll come right back on connections.

Hey, guys.

Hey, guys.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Coming up in our second hour, a conversation about the surrealist filmmaking of David Lynch.

Lynch died in January at the age of 78.

Were you a Twin Peaks fan?

Were you into the mysteries and the strangeness?

Or maybe it just didn't seem like it was your cup of tea?

Well, we've got some super fans.

We're going to explain why the culture has been impacted so much by Lynchian filmmaking.

That's next hour.

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I'm Evan Dawson.

Let's get as much feedback as we can starting with Rick in Pittsford.

Hey, Rick, go ahead.

Oh, hi.

Oh, thanks for taking my call.

so my comment is, I think that, it's really bad to politically target, for a particular industry or a particular company.

So I'm reading the article from Gothamist.

it says, Tesla promised to create 34 six jobs, including 14 eight, and currently deployed 1830 people.

So that's pretty much zero target.

And then they also said that they have invested cumulatively, new York, $2.89 billion.

So to me, it seems to be just based off of this act a pretty good deal considering, typically how, common subsidy sometimes with billions of dollars, like, you know, these, in California wasted billions of making roads, like trains to nowhere.

And, I don't want to pick, like, particular things in New York State because I don't know, but this, to me, seems like, they're pretty good, like, almost, 2800 jobs created out of promise to of 3500.

And, then they already invested 2.89 billion.

And I think that this sends a very bad message to business in that New York state.

I don't agree with a lot of Elon Musk's, in most of his views, but to target a company with employees that make presumably superior products, their cars are, like, really good, I think sends a very bad message and they have like, I think given that not to, not Elon Musk per se, but Tesla has pretty much done what the problem is.

They've created all of the invested money.

So I think it would be a really bad move.

Okay.

So so Rick, I appreciate that.

Thank you for the phone call.

well, want to mention Assembly Member Burke had to step off the call and attend to other matters, but I will say, Jimmy Veal, kind reporter for Gothamist and WNYC.

Rick is not wrong that there have been many of these public private deals, pilot programs, job promises, and there have been plenty of, examples where companies fell far shorter than Tesla has fallen in meeting what they promised.

Is that fair?

Yeah, that that is absolutely fair.

I mean, I just mentioned before the break one example where the public invested millions of dollars to build a film hotter than it, essentially produced no permanent jobs.

It basically did nothing.

the question that professionals and economic development, as well as critics of this deal and other deals look at, is what is the return on your investment and what else could you have done with that money?

So if the state of New York wanted to spend $959 million in Buffalo as it did to build this plant, what else could it have done?

Could it have extended the, the Niagara Frontier Transit Authority's railroad?

Could it have redone all the sewers and and maybe reduce people's property taxes?

Could it have built some kind of waterfront park?

You could build one and a half new stadiums for the Buffalo Bills for $959 million, because we spent $600 million doing that.

And so the question is not just whether you're getting some kind of a return on your spending, because that gentleman was absolutely correct.

The jobs are there, the investment was there.

But it's is it the best return on your investment?

And what are you not spending money on that you could be or perhaps should be spending your money on?

Sure.

And I think it's also a fair question going forward on whether ten years on if a dollar a year in rent is logical, if that is.

I mean, I, I think any government entity would reexamine that kind of a deal, especially for a company, in, in this position as Tesla has been.

And so but, Rick, I take the point and I do appreciate the phone call.

Thank you for that.

Let me get Jack and grease on the phone next.

Hi, Jack.

Go ahead.

Oh, hi, Evan.

Thanks for taking my call.

I, I as far as the buffalo plants concerned, my comments really weren't related to that.

But I just hope our representatives do what's best in terms make the best decision that you can.

And, for the people of New York.

But, the there was a comment made by, a fellow earlier about the, union unionization at Tesla plants and Elon Musk's interview where he commented about being so against having a union because it's like adversarial creates an adversarial environment within the company.

now, I'm going by memory here, so I apologize because I may have some of the facts a little wrong, but if I'm not mistaken, it was a couple of years ago Elon Musk received compensation of $60 billion for one year from Tesla.

He took $60 billion in compensation, and the board sued him.

And the reason they so he talk about an adversarial environment.

And he took so much money and there was no justification for it in terms of performance.

Usually want to see a CEO when they grow the business.

But, that wasn't the case with Elon Musk.

So, you know, we have this greedy man who has so much input stuff.

The other thing I would I would hope folks would start to raise is how many jobs in New York state has Elon Musk killed because of his Doge efforts?

As we talk about federal workers in Washington.

But how many actually live in New York that were impacted and lost their jobs?

And that's the jobs that weren't added in this factory in Buffalo.

Bare minimum.

I think we should be making some noise about that.

Jack, thank you for the phone call.

The vast majority of federal jobs are don't exist in Washington, DC, and Jack's point about that is correct.

There's a lot of focus on Washington and people in high sort of high wattage positions of power.

But federal jobs are everywhere, and there's different research and programs and parks and and so people will have to evaluate that as the cuts play out.

And people will probably start to notice that.

Jack.

But on the side of what has happened with Musk in the business, I don't have all the numbers on, you know, exactly how much you get paid in a given year.

but Jack is pointing to this idea that Musk had that we shared earlier this hour that unions are inherently adversarial, and that he wants companies that are not, in his words, lords and peasants kinds of things.

He doesn't like negativity.

He says unions are negative, and he seeks to create companies and maintain companies.

Without that air of union or labor negativity.

Now I'm going to turn back to Brian Schneck about this, because Brian had a lot to say about that earlier.

But there's also that question of, competition.

So Brian's colleague Dan Maloney sends us a note saying he wants Brian to talk a little bit more about climate credits that GM and Ford have to pay Tesla, and therefore Elon Musk.

Dan says this is a form of corporate welfare.

He says the transfer of wealth from GM, Ford and other auto manufacturers to Tesla strips them of resources they need to develop their own clean energy vehicles, giving Musk a huge unfair advantage.

Brian, do you want to weigh in on that?

Well, Thank you.

And and Dan Maloney is once again, correct.

So in up in that region and that Western New York region, we have legacy automakers.

We have a Ford stamping plant.

We have, Tonawanda, we have Lockport, Rochester, all right.

That are still currently operating.

All right.

But we also have many, many shuttered plants in the western New York region that were once upon a time, operated by the big three, whether it be GM, Ford and now Stellantis.

So that billion dollars that we're talking about, that billion dollars.

Oh, look what happened with Musk.

We've put all this money in.

I was only paying $1 a year.

Oh, but he did create jobs.

But well, how about we incentivize the big three that have been actually good to those communities, right?

Even though he closed some stuff, why don't we figure out a pathway to make it economically feasible for them to bring the work back to Tonawanda, to bring the work back to Rochester, Lockport, and and to the stamping plant in Hamburg and beyond, because we have much, much capacity under those rooftops.

Tonawanda has 1,000,000ft , right?

They could be producing more powertrains in Tonawanda rather than General Motors producing those engines down in Mexico.

So that money that was that was invested in Tesla, right.

Which is very controversial.

that that's the topic of this discussion.

We should have pointed that money towards the legacy automakers once again, that that would be employing at a much greater level then what Tesla was doing today.

Plus they would be unionized.

Plus they would have much stronger wage and benefit packages than what Tesla offers.

So that's where we should be putting our money and investing in good corporate citizens rather than proven bums.

I mean, that's what's proven to me thus far, is that that Tesla took the money and left, there's still they're still here because they just love the corporate welfare that we keep shoveling to them, you know, each and every day.

Well, let me get back to your emails.

William says, Evan, I'm not a musk fan.

I don't like his approach to his employees or what he's doing.

A Doge that said, what he's accomplished with Tesla and SpaceX is impressive.

I'd like to hear your guest thoughts on the positive side of his achievements.

And Charles says, if you're driving an EV right now, it is because of Elon Musk.

I just want to make sure we're all on the same page about this, that all EV future that New York says we need to have, despite the fact that EVs don't actually work all that well up here, is only possible because of Musk, but because Musk is working with Donald Trump down, state legislators in Albany declare Musk must be resisted.

People aren't against Musk because they have reason to be there against him, because they are told to be.

That's Charles.

So, Keith Goldstein, Tesla owner and driver.

William and Charles have strong views.

Well, I just want to I want to hear some thoughts about Musk and his achievements.

On the good side of things, you agree with Charles Keith that the reason anybody's driving any EV, Tesla or otherwise, is because of Elon Musk right now?

not really.

I mean, General Motors had EVs earlier, but, the auto are they, gasoline production companies basically killed it.

what prompted Elon Musk was hiring the proper engineers?

he started out with his sports car, which was unique, and it was, supposed to be under 25,000 for an incredibly quick car.

And he marketed it well, he got money and he had some, problems, but it seemed to have worked out.

And then the other thing that really took off was when, the price of, energy spiked and you were paying $4.

I mean, locally, you were paying for 450 a gallon for gasoline, and people migrated.

Well, we need electric vehicles.

And he was the only one ramped up production.

And now the other legacy owners or legacy manufacturers are starting to build cars, which I believe the Ford Lightning pickup truck is phenomenal.

And it actually looks a heck of a lot better than the Tesla Cybertruck.

The Cybertruck is a matter of taste, for sure.

Some people love it, I guess.

well, Elon writes to say, as it happens, he's a Rochester resident living in Buffalo.

He says, I'm the chair of the Buffalo Evan Dawson Fan club, the Buffalo Jimmy Volcano fan Club, the Buffalo Pat Bourke Fan club.

What are the odds you're on on the air today together?

He says the larger issue here is the way New York has been handling economic development since Cuomo.

Empire State Development has become essentially a slush fund, an arm of the government with essentially no transparency or accountability.

Years ago, I was in a meeting about getting green jobs at the Solar City plant, and the regional director of ESD wouldn't even tell us who the architect of the plant was.

Look at how else the governor tries to use ESD.

They tried to use part of the Empire State development as a stalking horse for development heavy Planet Buffalo's outer harbor, and we spent years fighting that.

What we really need is much more widespread coverage of the various ESD escapades, especially those outside of downstate or Albany city and state, and why I once had a Buffalo branch.

And he says he wants to see, Jimmy Veal.

Kind and colleagues at the Gothamist set up an outpost in western New York to help ferret out these stories.

So he's, he says, let's collectively go after this and Godspeed you, gentlemen.

Jimmy Veal can we could always use more journalists, that's for sure.

Covering government as a watchdog, what do you make of some of what Allen is saying?

There?

Well, well, hi, Allen, and thank you for your very kind words.

I'm very happy to be working for a public radio station and supported by a corporation for Public Broadcasting grant.

one of the provisos of which is that all of my work is to have a statewide focus and to on all the stations of in New York.

So, I will be not leaving my, my home in Albany, but I will be focusing on Buffalo and Rochester and Syracuse and Binghamton and the North Country and Glens Falls and the Capital Region, as my full time job.

So I am excited to be continuing to look at all of the operations of state government, including economic development, as I've sort of focused on in these past few weeks.

Yeah, Allen, I wish we could clone the Jimmy for all kinds of the world.

There's some great journalists working in the state, and we need him, Andrew in Iran to quit next on the phone.

Gotta keep it tight.

Go ahead.

Andrew.

Yeah.

Look, you have a government you cannot afford.

I do not like Elon Musk or Donald Trump, but you have to cut down the size of this government.

Otherwise you need to start sending out a $7 trillion tax bill every year because we can't just keep putting all this money.

the credit card, it's getting out of control.

It.

That's all I'm going to say.

If I don't like Trump or Musk, you have to cut down the size of government.

It's going to look ugly.

People are going to get fired.

It's not pretty, but it's either that or we're going to commit financial suicide.

Andrew, thanks for the phone call.

His point there about it's not going to be pretty.

We talked about that yesterday on this program.

I'm sure we'll keep talking about that.

Musk and many others in the DOJ's team feel like you're going to have to make cuts that hurt.

And when you realize where the real pain is when you bleed, then you hire back and you fix mistakes there.

That's part of their philosophy.

so we'll we'll see.

Andrew, thank you for that phone call.

Jimmy V okay.

What's next in this story?

What are you following next here?

you know, this renegotiated deal, this tentative deal with Tesla.

It still needs to be approved by the board of the Empire State Development Corporation.

so, I don't know, this was, I think, in many ways, flying under the radar for a long period.

And then we saw a flurry of activity this week, and I was happy to write a story about this and broadcast a story about this, because I don't know if it's going to cause an evaluation.

I don't know if it's going to cause a renegotiation, but it certainly has the potential to do so.

You know, Governor Hochul is seeking reelect next year.

I don't know if this is going to be front of mind for voters, but it is the kind of thing that I be curious to hear.

What her exact thoughts are, whether or not she is supportive of the tentative agreement that's been reached by Empire State Development, which is her economic development authority, or whether she might be more sympathetic to some of the voices we've heard today and say, perhaps this needs to be looked at, and perhaps there needs to be adjustments.

Jimmy, it works outstanding.

Always good to talk to you and you're generous with your time.

Look forward to the next one.

Thanks, Evan.

Always a pleasure to be with you and your listeners.

Jimmy Viel, kind reporter for Gothamist and WNYC.

Everyone should be following his work.

Our thanks to Keith Goldstein, a Tesla owner going to keep driving it.

Thank you Keith, thanks for sharing your perspective.

Thanks, Evan.

Our thanks to Brian Schneck, vice chair of the United Auto Workers New York State Community Action Program.

Among other habits that he wears down, state Brian, thanks for joining us on this program today.

Thank you.

Thank you again and our thanks to Assemblyman Patrick Burke, who joined us earlier this hour.

More connections coming up.

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