>>GOOD MORNING AND WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

FROM OUR HOME STUDIOS, I'M DAVID DUMKE.

>>AND I'M KATIE CORONADO, WELCOME.

>>TODAY WE ARE JOINED BY EGYPTIAN DIPLOMAT, FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER AND CURRENT DEAN OF THE AMERICAN SCHOOL IN CAIRO'S SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS AND PUBLIC POLICY, NABIL FAHMY.

AMBASSADOR FAHMY, WELCOME TO GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.

>>THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR THIS VERY KIND INVITATION, HAPPY TO BE WITH YOU.

>>US EGYPTIAN RELATIONS HAVE BEEN DEBATED FOR YEARS, WHAT DIRECTION THEY'RE GOING TO GO.

SO WE'D LIKE TO START BY ASKING YOU YOUR TAKE ON WHERE RELATIONS ARE GOING TO GO WITH THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

>>SURE.

AMERICA IS A GLOBAL POWER.

IT IS THE STRONGEST, LARGEST IN TERMS OF WEALTH, GLOBAL POWER PRESENTLY AND WILL CONTINUE TO BE A VERY SIGNIFICANT ONE FOR YEARS TO COME.

THEREFORE, IT WILL BE IMPORTANT FOR EGYPT.

EGYPT IS A REGIONAL POWER.

IF YOU HAVE AN INTEREST IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IT'S IMPORTANT TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH EGYPT.

WHAT THE AMERICANS AND THE EGYPTIANS NEED TO DO IS TO MANAGE THEIR RELATIONS AS BEST THEY CAN BECAUSE IN GOOD TIMES AND BAD, THEY WILL CROSS PATHS.

SO I ARGUE THAT RELATIONS WILL CONTINUE.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE CONTINUATION OF RELATIONS ON ONE SIDE OR THE OTHER, IT IS HOW BEST WE MANAGE THE RELATIONS FOR THE MUTUAL BENEFIT OF BOTH SIDES.

AND THE BEST WAY TO DO THAT IS TO RESPECT THE FACT THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVES ON MANY THINGS, BUT ALSO MANY MORE COMMON INTERESTS THAT BRING US TOGETHER.

SO LET US MANAGE OUR DIFFERENCES IN A FASHION THAT MAKES THEM WEALTH RATHER THAN PROBLEMS.

AND LET'S INVEST OUR POINTS OF GRIEVANCE TO THE UTMOST POTENTIAL.

>>AMBASSADOR, YOU MENTION DIFFERENCES AND SIMILARITIES.

CAN YOU BRIEFLY GIVE US SOME OF THE SIMILARITIES THAT YOU THINK ARE REASONS FOR THIS DIPLOMACY TO ALWAYS CONTINUE, AS YOU MENTIONED?

>>SURE.

IF YOU LOOK AT THE MIDDLE EAST, IF I'M LOOKING AS AN AMERICAN TOWARDS THE MIDDLE EAST, I'M NOT AMERICAN, BUT IF I'M LOOKING FROM YOUR SIDE OF THE ATLANTIC IN THIS CASE, EGYPT STARTED WARS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, BUT IT ALSO STARTED THE PEACE PROCESS.

THE NATION STATE SYSTEM IN THE MIDDLE EAST STARTED OUT OF EGYPT.

WE'VE MOVED FROM A MONARCHY TO A REPUBLIC, LEFT-LEANING THEN MORE WEST-LEANING.

AND WE HAVE BEEN THE PIONEERS OF PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST OVER AND ABOVE THE FACT THAT WE'VE OPENED UP OUR ECONOMY, AND FOR THAT MATTER, FOR MOST OF THE TIME, SECULAR STATE BY MIDDLE EASTERN STANDARDS.

THESE ARE THINGS ACTUALLY THAT ARE VERY IMPORTANT TO AMERICA.

IF YOU WANT THE WORLD TO BE A MODERATE CENTRIST CONTEXT, THAT'S SOMETHING THAT'S CONSISTENT WITH AMERICAN INTERESTS.

THE MIDDLE EAST, I BELIEVE, IS CONSISTENT TO AMERICAN INTERESTS.

WE ACTUALLY FOUGHT WITH AMERICA TO LIBERATE KUWAIT, THAT'S ANOTHER EXAMPLE, BEYOND THE ARAB-ISRAELI PEACE PROCESS WHERE WE PIONEERED THE PROCESS.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE IMPORTANT TO AMERICA, BUT LET ME EVEN GO BEYOND PRESENT DAY ISSUES.

A QUARTER OF THE MIDDLE EAST LIVES IN MY COUNTRY, EVERY FOURTH MIDDLE EASTERNER LIVES IN EGYPT.

SO IF YOU'RE GOING TO DEAL WITH INTERESTS IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN THE FUTURE, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE RELATIONS WITH EGYPT, IMPORTANT.

AND AGAIN, I UNDERLINE, I SAY THE SAME TO MY EGYPTIAN COLLEAGUES HERE.

WE LIVE ON TWO SEAS, THE MEDITERRANEAN AND THE RED SEA.

WE ACTUALLY LIVE, WE'RE PART OF TWO CONTINENTS, THE SINAI IS IN ASIA, BY THE WAY, IT'S NOT IN AFRICA, THE OTHER PART OF EGYPT IS IN AFRICA.

WE IMPORT FOODSTUFFS.

WE IMPORT WATER, WE DON'T IMPORT IT AS A COMMODITY, BUT OUR WATER COMES FROM ABROAD.

AS I SAID, OUR FOODSTUFFS COME FROM ABROAD.

OUR NATIONAL SECURITY CAPACITY COMES FROM ABROAD.

AND UP UNTIL VERY RECENTLY, OUR ENERGY CAME FROM ABROAD.

SO WE NEED TO HAVE RELATIONS WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES, AND YOU'RE THE BIGGEST AND THE LARGEST.

THAT MAKES IT IMPORTANT FOR THE US TO MANAGE RELATIONS WITH EGYPT WELL, AND VICE VERSA, EGYPT MANAGES RELATIONS WITH US WELL.

WE NEED NOT ONLY TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO AGREE, BUT ALSO HOW TO DISAGREE.

>>WELL, YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT HOW TO DISAGREE.

WE WANTED TO ASK YOU ABOUT IF THERE'S ANY CONCERN IN EGYPT RIGHT NOW, WHEN THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION IS GOING TO REEMPHASIZE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS AND SOME OF THE THORNY ISSUES THAT YOU'VE LONG HAD TO DEAL WITH ON AMERICA, SUCH AS FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND JOURNALISTS AND OTHER ISSUES OF THAT NATURE.

>>LET ME BE VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

I'M A PROMOTER OF HIS INTEREST IN EGYPT, EVERYTHING.

I DEBATE AND DISCUSS WITH MY EGYPTIAN EARS THESE ISSUES AS OBJECTIVES WE NEED TO PURSUE AS EGYPTIANS PER SE.

I DON'T LIKE TO HEAR IT WHEN IT COMES FROM ABROAD, BECAUSE FRANKLY, MOST OF THE TIME IT'S COMING WITH A POLITICAL AGENDA.

SO WHILE I RESIST BEING TOLD WHAT TO DO BY FOREIGNERS, THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT I'M NOT COGNIZANT OF THE IMPORTANCE OF HUMAN RIGHTS ISSUES, OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH AND THE SORT WHICH WE NEED TO PURSUE.

THE REALITY IS, WE NEED TO PURSUE NATION STATE BUILDING, NOT DEPENDING ON THE AMERICAN AGENDA WHEN IT'S A TOP ISSUE, THEN WE SPLIT WHEN IT'S NOT TOP ISSUE, WE STOP.

THAT'S NOT THE WAY IT SHOULD OCCUR.

YES, WITH THE CHANGE FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE OTHER, THIS ISSUE APPEARS TO BE COMING BACK TO ONE OF THE PROMINENT CONFLICTS OF RELATIONS IN THE FUTURE.

SO IT WILL BE PROBABLY A BIT MORE DIFFICULT TO MANAGE THAN IN THE PAST.

BUT LET ME SAY THE FOLLOWING.

CHANGING PRACTICES, BE THEY CULTURAL, LEGAL OR THE SORT, TAKE TIME, AND YOU CANNOT, FRANKLY, CHANGE THEM BY DICTA.

YOU CHANGE THEM BY CAPACITY BUILDING AND CAPACITY BUILDING TAKES TIME.

AND IT HAS TO BE IN STEP AND GENERATED LOCALLY.

SO IT'S A LONG ANSWER, I AGREE WITH YOU.

BUT WE'RE GOING TO FIND THE RIGHT BALANCE BETWEEN WHAT COMES FIRST, THE DEBATE ABOUT VALUES WHEN IT IS OPPORTUNE FOR YOU, OR THE DEBATE ABOUT VALUES LONG TERM BECAUSE THAT'S OPPORTUNE FOR US, AND DEBATE ABOUT INTEREST.

AND LET ME, DAVID, YOU'VE KNOWN ME FOR A LONG TIME AND I TEND TO BE CANDID AND BLUNT.

YOU CAN'T RAISE VALUES WHEN THEY SERVE YOUR PURPOSE AND IGNORE THEM WHEN THEY DON'T.

IF YOU'RE GOING TO RAISE THE ISSUE OF VALUES, YOU HAVE TO DO TWO THINGS IN THE MIDDLE EAST IN PARTICULAR.

SUPPORT PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD AND ISRAELI OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN LAND.

AND I WOULD ARGUE EVEN MORE, SUPPORT THE NONPROLIFERATION OF NUCLEAR WEAPONS IN THE MIDDLE EAST, WITHOUT EXCEPTION, BE THAT ARAB COUNTRIES, IRAN, OR ISRAEL, BY THE WAY.

YOU WANT APPLY VALUES, DON'T APPLY THEM WHEN THEY DON'T COST YOU ANYTHING, APPLY THEM WHEN THERE'S A PRICE TO PAY.

>>AMBASSADOR, DO YOU THINK THAT PART OF THAT TRANSITION THAT HAS TO COME FROM WITHIN, FROM THE EGYPTIAN PEOPLE WITHOUT EXTERNAL INFLUENCE, LIKE YOU SAY, WOULD HAVE TO DO WITH HOW JOURNALISM AND COMMUNICATION IS TAUGHT AT THE UNIVERSITY LEVEL, SAY, IN CAIRO, WHICH I HAVE HAD THE PLEASURE OF VISITING.

AND I HAVE CONTACTED AND HAVE HAD CONTACT WITH SOME OF YOUR AMAZING STUDENTS IN EGYPT THROUGH MY TEACHINGS.

DO YOU THINK THAT THAT CHANGE WILL COME FROM WITHIN STARTING WITH THE UNIVERSITY SYSTEM THERE?

>>I COMPLETELY AGREE WITH YOU, THAT'S IMPERATIVE.

AND LET ME TELL YOU THE FOLLOWING STORY.

I COME FROM THE SCHOOL OF GLOBAL AFFAIRS IN CAIRO AT THE AMERICAN UNIVERSITY.

FROM MY OWN EXPERIENCE, AT THE END OF MY CAREER, THE WORLD WAS DIFFERENT FROM THE BEGINNING.

WHEN I ADDRESS THE STUDENTS, I DON'T TRY TO TEACH THEM TODAY'S WAY, I TRY TO TEACH THEM HOW TO CRITICALLY THINK ABOUT THE FUTURE.

BECAUSE BY THE TIME THEY BECOME RESPONSIBLE MID CAREER OFFICIALS IN THEIR PARTICULAR SECTORS, THE WORLD WILL NOT BE THE ONE I'M TEACHING THEM TODAY.

SO, YES, I AGREE WITH YOU.

EDUCATION IS THE CORE OF ALL THIS, AND THAT'S WHY I USE THE WORD CAPACITY.

THAT INVOLVES EDUCATION, IT INVOLVES INSTITUTION BUILDING.

WE NEED TO TAKE THE LEAD IN THAT.

AND AGAIN, I SAY THIS OPENLY, HERE IN CAIRO, PURSUING... EVERY DAY, TALK TO PEOPLE, HAVING A BETTER RECORD ON HUMAN RIGHTS AND YOU YOURSELF WENT THROUGH DIFFICULT SITUATION DURING THE CAMPAIGN.

EVERYBODY HAS TO ALWAYS TRY TO DO BETTER IN TERMS OF EQUALITY OF PEOPLE AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

IT SHOULD BE VIEWED OUT OF NATIONAL DETERMINATION, NOT BECAUSE WE'RE UNDER PRESSURE FROM OTHERS.

AND EVEN FRANKLY, IF WE WEREN'T, WE NEED TO PURSUE IT.

THAT REQUIRES BUILDING THE CULTURE IN SOCIETY, STARTING WITH EDUCATION, STARTING WITH THE PARAMOUNT IMPORTANCE OF RULE OF LAW, TRANSPARENCY, ACCOUNTABILITY AND INSTITUTION BUILDING.

IT'S ALL ABOUT CAPACITY.

>>YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT EDUCATING STUDENTS IN THE FUTURE, I WANT TO TALK A LITTLE ABOUT YOUR OWN EXAMPLE THAT YOU'VE SAID.

I'VE RECENTLY BEEN READING YOUR BOOK WHICH CAME OUT.

I LAUGHED A LITTLE, AS YOU WERE SAYING, "I'M NOT AN AMERICAN," BUT YOU ACTUALLY WERE BORN IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH GIVES YOU A VERY UNIQUE VANTAGE POINT.

YOU'VE SPENT A LOT OF TIME IN WASHINGTON PROFESSIONALLY, AND IN NEW YORK, YOUR BIRTH CITY.

SO YOU'VE HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO BE A KEEN STUDY OF AMERICANS AND HOW THEY THINK.

DO YOU THINK AMERICANS UNDERSTAND EGYPTIANS AND WHAT CAN AMERICANS DO TO LEARN MORE ABOUT GLOBAL AFFAIRS THEMSELVES?

>>YOU HAVE A TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE, BUT ALSO COMES WITH IT A HUGE RESPONSIBILITY.

YOU ARE A CONTINENT, NOT ONLY A NATION STATE BECAUSE OF YOUR SIZE.

IN ALL HONESTY, AND I DON'T MEAN THIS AT ALL IN THE PEJORATIVE SENSE, YOU CORRECTLY MENTIONED HOW LONG I LIVED IN AMERICA.

AND THEREFORE I HAVE VERY WARM SENTIMENTS TOWARDS AMERICA.

BECAUSE YOU'RE A CONTINENT, MANY OF THOSE WHO AREN'T LIVING ON THE WATER SHORES, AMERICA, FOR THEM, THEY DON'T REALLY LOOK AT THE WORLD AS MUCH AS THOSE ON THE WATER ALTHOUGH IT'S NOT PHYSICALLY SOMETHING YOU LOOK ACROSS.

WHAT I MEAN HERE BASICALLY IS, IN MANY RESPECTS, AMERICA IS SELF-SUFFICIENT ON A LOT OF DIFFERENT THINGS.

YOU NEED TO TEACH YOUR OWN COMMUNITY THAT BEING PART OF THE WORLD, IS AN ADVANTAGED AMERICA.

THE IDEA THAT AMERICA COULD BE MOVING TOWARDS ISOLATIONISM IS FRANKLY IMPOSSIBLE TO IMPLEMENT WHEN IT GOES AGAINST THE VERY GRAIN OF AMERICAN INTERESTS.

I HAVE SO MANY AMERICAN FRIENDS, BUT I'VE TOLD THEM, STOP EXPLAINING FOREIGN POLICY SIMPLY AS THREAT PERCEPTIONS ABOUT, IN THE PAST, SOVIETS, THEN NOW THE CHINESE, EXPLAIN THAT TO PEOPLE.

BUT ALSO EXPLAIN THE ADVANTAGES YOU GET BY HAVING THESE STRONG RELATIONS WITH FOREIGN COUNTRIES.

I DON'T THINK AMERICANS UNDERSTAND EGYPT COMPLETELY.

ALTHOUGH I HAVE TO SAY, WE HAVE A TREMENDOUS ADVANTAGE THAT WE NEED TO USE IN AMERICA BECAUSE OF OUR LONG HISTORY.

YOU'RE TAUGHT ABOUT HOW IRONIC IT IS TO BE AT LEAST VERY EARLY ON IN SCHOOLS.

SO THERE IS THIS, IF YOU WANT, INTEREST IN EGYPT, HISTORICALLY.

WHAT WE NEED TO DO, AND THEN YOU'VE WITNESSED THIS WITH ME IN A PERIOD OF TIME.

I NEED TO GET AMERICANS TO TALK ABOUT CONTEMPORARY EGYPT, NOT ONLY ABOUT HISTORIC EGYPT.

I DON'T THINK THEY UNDERSTAND CONTEMPORARY EGYPT, BUT THEY DO HAVE A STRONG SENTIMENT TOWARDS HISTORIC.

THAT'S OUR RESPONSIBILITY.

I NEED TO EXPLAIN THAT AS AN EGYPTIAN, EGYPTIANS NEED TO DO THAT.

STOP TRYING TO MAKE AMERICANS NECESSARILY AGREE WITH US, HAVE THEM UNDERSTAND US.

AND I'VE ALWAYS EMBRACED THIS PRINCIPLE.

I WOULD GO INTO A MEETING LOOKING FOR AGREEMENT, ACCEPTING DISAGREEMENT, NEVER WALKING OUT WITH MISUNDERSTANDING.

PREFER TO HAVE A CLEAR DISAGREEMENT THAN TO LEAVE A MEETING WITH SOMEBODY NOT UNDERSTANDING MY CONCERNS.

FOR TWO REASONS.

AMERICA WITH ITS SIZE AND WEALTH PROVIDES TREMENDOUS OPPORTUNITY IF WE AGREE.

AND SECONDLY, FRANKLY, WITH ITS STRENGTH AND SIZE CAN BE HUGELY DETRIMENTAL IF IT MISUNDERSTANDS US AND DISAGREES.

AND AGAIN, IF YOU LOOK AT AMERICA'S ROLE IN THE MIDDLE EAST, IN THE PAST, IN THE SIXTIES AND SEVENTIES, OF LAST YEAR AND THEN OF LAST CENTURY, AND THEN AGAIN, AT THE BEGINNING OF THIS CENTURY, FRANKLY, YOU'VE DONE SOME THINGS IN THE MIDDLE EAST THAT CLEARLY REFLECT YOU UNDERSTAND THE CULTURE.

FOR YOU, POST 9/11, WHICH WAS A TERRORIST TRAGEDY AGAINST AMERICA AND AGAINST MANY, YOU SUDDENLY LOOK AT THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY AS TERRORIST, TERRORISM, TERRORISM, VERY LITTLE ABOUT AMERICA, ABOUT THE MIDDLE EAST AND ABOUT THE ARAB WORLD OR ABOUT EGYPT, MUCH LESS, IF I MAY SAY, THAN YOU DID 20 YEARS AGO WHEN YOU HAD A STRONG NUMBER OF ARABS, PEOPLE LEARNING THE LANGUAGE, TRYING TO UNDERSTAND THE CULTURE MUCH MORE THAN THE PURSUIT OF TERRORISM ACTIVITIES WHICH WE ARE ALL AGAINST.

>>AMBASSADOR, WHAT HAVE YOU KEPT WITH YOU, AN EXPERIENCE THAT IMPACTED YOU ABOUT SOMETHING THAT YOU REALLY WERE PASSIONATE ABOUT, BUT YOU WALKED AWAY WITH STILL THAT FEELING OF STILL DIPLOMACY AND THEIR SIMILARITIES?

BECAUSE THAT MUST BE VERY DIFFICULT WHEN PERCEPTION, LIKE YOU SAID, IS AN ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO A LOT OF COUNTRIES FROM AMERICA OR TOWARD AMERICA?

>>OKAY, WELL, LET ME BE CANDID WITH YOU AND I'LL BE STRAIGHTFORWARD.

I'VE ALWAYS FOUND SOME VERY PROMINENT AMERICANS IN PROMINENT PLACES AND IN DIFFICULT SITUATIONS, REALLY WANTING TO KNOW THE TRUTH.

SO EVEN IN DIFFICULT CIRCUMSTANCES, I'VE HAD CONGRESSMEN AND SENATORS, AND DAVID KNOWS WHO I'M TALKING ABOUT, JUST BEFORE A VERY DIFFICULT VOTE IN THE CONGRESS ASKING ME, "WHAT'S THE TRUTH ABOUT THIS ISSUE?"

AND IT WASN'T A DIFFERENT ISSUE BY THE WAY, IT WAS AN EASTERN ISSUE.

THE FACT THAT AN AMERICAN POLITICIAN WOULD WANT AN OPINION FROM SOMEBODY ON THE GROUND, BECAUSE HE HAS HEARD THIS PERSON AGREE OR DISAGREE WITH HIM ON, WAS A POINT, FRANKLY, WHICH I ADMIRE TREMENDOUSLY.

I ALSO ADMIRE THE FACT THAT YOU ALWAYS COMPLAIN ABOUT WANTING TO DO BETTER.

AMERICA IS NEVER SATISFIED WITH WHERE IT IS, IT ALWAYS WANTS TO DO BETTER.

IT'S NOT PERFECT, BUT THE FACT THAT YOU'RE ALWAYS ARGUING YOU NEED TO DO BETTER IS, I THINK, SOMETHING YOU CAN BE VERY PROUD OF.

WHAT'S ALWAYS ANNOYED ME, TO BE HONEST WITH YOU, IS IF YOU WANT, THE LACK OF UNDERSTANDING OF THE REST OF THE WORLD AND THE PREDOMINANCE OF MATERIAL INTERESTS IN YOUR POLITICS.

I'VE TOLD MY EGYPTIAN COUNTERPARTS, "BE CANDID, BE STRAIGHTFORWARD IN YOUR DIALOGUES WITH AMERICANS.

WE CAN TAKE YES AND NO, WE CANNOT TAKE MISUNDERSTANDINGS.

AND I'VE, FRANKLY, ON OCCASION, GONE BEYOND MY INSTRUCTIONS IN MY PREVIOUS CAPACITIES TO TELL MY AMERICAN COUNTERPARTS, "SORRY, THE ANSWER IS..." WELL, LET ME BE VERY STRAIGHTFORWARD.

THE EGYPTIAN NO, IS SILENCE.

CULTURALLY EGYPTIANS WILL SIMPLY IGNORE YOU IF THEY DON'T WANT TO GIVE YOU A YES FOR AN ANSWER.

AND AT ONE POINT IN AN OFFICIAL MEETING, I LITERALLY, AFTER THE PRINCIPALS THERE HAD FINISHED, I TURNED AROUND AND LOOKED AT SECRETARY CONDI RICE, I SAID, "CONDI, BY THE WAY, THE ANSWERS TO QUESTIONS, FOUR, FIVE, AND SIX ARE NO.

SHE LOOKED AT ME AND SMILED.

MY EGYPTIAN COUNTERPARTS WERE PERPLEXED.

AND WHEN WE WALKED OUT, THEY SAID, "WHY DID YOU DO THAT?"

I SAID, "BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO KNOW THE ANSWER'S NO.

THAT'S BETTER THAN THEM MISUNDERSTANDING AND KNOCKING ON THE DOOR TOMORROW AND THE DAY AFTER FOR THIS."

AND FRANKLY, THE THREE ISSUES I SAID NO TO WHICH SURPRISED MY COUNT, MY PRINCIPLES, WERE LEFT BECAUSE I SAID, "NO, " AND WERE NOT PROBLEMS LATER.

SO I ADMIRE THIS IN AMERICA.

YOU TAKE, YES, YOU TAKE NO.

YOU MAY TRY TO TWIST SOME ARMS.

WE'RE 7,000 YEARS OLD.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO GO ANYWHERE.

SO DON'T WORRY ABOUT THAT.

WE'RE NOT WORRIED ABOUT THAT.

I'D LIKE TO SEE MORE OF THAT ATTITUDE IN OUR PART OF THE WORLD.

BUT I ALSO LIKE TO SEE YOU GAIN A LITTLE BIT FROM OUR COMMITMENT TO COLLECTIVE INTERESTS, TO MULTI-LATERALISM TO THE FACT THAT WE ARE ALL PART OF ONE WORLD.

WE ARE NOT PERFECT, YOU'RE NOT PERFECT.

WE'RE NOT PERFECT, BUT ULTIMATELY IT'S NOT ONLY ABOUT MY INTEREST OR YOUR INTERESTS.

IT'S NOT ABOUT A BALANCE OF POWER.

IT SHOULD BE ABOUT THE BALANCE OF INTERESTS.

>>ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU WRITE ABOUT IN YOUR BOOK, OF COURSE, IS YOUR TIME AS FOREIGN MINISTER AND YOUR WORK TO REALLY RESET EGYPTIAN FOREIGN POLICY AFTER A TUMULTUOUS PERIOD WHERE YOU SAW GOVERNMENT CHANGE, YOU SAW PRESIDENT MUBARAK RESIGN.

YOU SAW ELECTIONS FOR THE FIRST TIME, AND YOU REALLY HAD A GAP THERE FOR EGYPTIAN FOREIGN POLICY.

CAN YOU TELL US A LITTLE ABOUT SOME OF THOSE EFFORTS?

I KNOW WE'VE BEEN TALKING SO MUCH ABOUT US EGYPTIAN RELATIONS, WE OFTEN FORGET FROM THE AMERICAN POINT OF VIEW, EGYPT HAS TO HAVE RELATIONS WITH MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, IT'S NOT ALWAYS AN EASY BALANCE TO FIND.

>>THANK YOU, DAVID.

MY CRITICISM, ANALYTICALLY, NOT IN A PEJORATIVE SENSE, TO MY PART OF THE WORLD, THE ARAB WORLD, MIDDLE EAST, BUT THE ARAB WORLD IN PARTICULAR, WHICH INCLUDES MY COUNTRY.

CERTAINLY, WE'VE HAD A VERY GENERIC RESISTANCE TO CHANGE.

PAIN IS AMBIGUOUS, THEREFORE, WE'RE NOT COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

WE'VE ALSO THROUGH [INAUDIBLE] FOR DECADES AND DECADES HAVE BEEN OVER DEPENDENT ON FOREIGNERS IN NATIONAL SECURITY CAPACITY.

FOR THOSE REASONS, YOU SEE IMBALANCES THAT EXIST IN THE MIDDLE EAST TODAY.

WHEN I CAME IN AS FOREIGN MINISTER, I KEPT ARGUING, CHANGE HAPPENS, THINGS CHANGE.

WITH TIME, PEOPLE GET OLD, EVENTS CHANGE, CONFLICTS CHANGE.

IN MY DIPLOMATIC CAREER, WE WERE TRAINED THAT THERE WERE TWO SUPERPOWERS, THE SOVIET UNION AND AMERICA.

BEFORE I WAS AMBASSADOR, THERE WAS NO SOVIET UNION.

WE WOKE UP ONE MORNING AND THERE WAS ANNOUNCEMENT, THERE'S NO SOVIET UNION ANY LONGER.

EGYPT AND SUDAN USED TO BE ONE COUNTRY.

SUDAN ITSELF IS NOW TWO COUNTRIES.

SO I TRIED TO INSTILL IN OUR SYSTEM, A CULTURE OF PREPARING FOR THE FUTURE.

THAT'S NOT IN ANY WAY IGNORING THE PAST OR THE PRESENT.

BUT MY POINT IS THAT BECAUSE OF WHAT I EXPLAINED EARLIER, WE LIVE ON TWO SEAS.

WE'RE IN TWO CONTINENTS.

WE IMPORT SO MUCH OF OUR INTERESTS.

I HAD TO HAVE A PROACTIVE FOREIGN POLICY.

I HAD TO BE AHEAD OF THE CURVE RATHER THAN BEHIND THE CURVE.

DEFINITELY SO, IN MY OWN REGION.

YOU CANNOT DO THAT IF YOU REACT.

AND FRANKLY, WHEN I WAS BROUGHT INTO OFFICE, I STARTED RECREATING THE FOREIGN MINISTRY, AND HAD CONFLICTS, BUT IT WAS ALSO QUITE AN ENVIRONMENT OF CHANGE IN MY OWN REGION.

AND I WOULD JOKE, WELL, I WOULD SAY HALF JOKINGLY THAT, THE TIME WE WERE SOMETHING LIKE 95 MILLION EGYPTIANS AND WE HAD 96 MILLION FOREIGN MINISTERS, BECAUSE EVERYBODY HAD AN OPINION ABOUT FOREIGN POLICY EVERY DAY.

AND OCCASIONALLY THEY WOULD EVEN CHANGE THEIR OPINION DURING THE SAME DAY.

I HAD TO, AS FOREIGN MINISTER, AFTER TWO REVOLUTIONS, DEAL WITH THAT SENSE OF ACQUIRED ACCOUNTABILITY.

PEOPLE FELT THAT THEY HAD THE RIGHT AND THEY WERE CORRECT TO HOLD ME ACCOUNTABLE AND TO HOLD THE FOREIGN MINISTER ACCOUNTABLE EVERY TWO HOURS IS VERY DIFFICULT TO DO IN FOREIGN POLITICS.

BUT THE FACT IS, WE HAD HAD TWO REVOLUTIONS.

SO THIS IDEA OF ACCOUNTABILITY WAS IMPORTANT.

I'M NOT A BIG FAN OF SOCIAL NETWORKS, BUT THEY'RE THERE.

SO I CANNOT IGNORE THEM EITHER.

AND YOU CANNOT BLOCK THEM OR PREVENT THEM LONG-TERM, YOU SHOULDN'T ATTEMPT TO.

SO THE REAL OPTION IS, YOU HAVE TO BE A BETTER SOURCE OF INFORMATION, OF A DIFFERENT NATURE IN A PROACTIVE FASHION.

A GLOBAL ENVIRONMENT, A NETWORK ENVIRONMENT REQUIRES TRANSPARENCY AS WELL AS ACCOUNTABILITY.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT I TRIED TO FOCUS.

I ALSO MADE THE POINT THAT AS MUCH AS I LIVED IN AMERICA, THE MOST IMPORTANT COUNTRIES FOR ME WERE MY NEIGHBORS.

THEY WERE THE ONES THAT I HAD WARS WITH.

I WASN'T GOING TO GET INTO WAR WITH AMERICA OR DO I HAVE A PEACE TREATY WITH AMERICA.

WE HAVE NORMAL RELATIONS WITH AMERICA.

I CAN MANAGE THAT.

THERE'S A TIME FACTOR, I CAN MANAGE.

BUT IF THERE'S A CRISIS ON MY BORDER... AND I USED TO WAKE UP AT.. [INAUDIBLE] SURE, MY NIGHTMARES ARE BETTER THAN MY DAYS, BECAUSE MY DAYS, MY NIGHTMARES ARE SHORT, AND MY DAYS HAVE THE SAME CRISIS, AND THEY'RE REAL.

>>YOU MENTIONED THAT YOU'RE NOT A BIG FAN OF SOCIAL NETWORKS, BUT THEN ALSO EARLIER WE TALKED ABOUT HOW IMPORTANT IT IS FOR THE TRANSPARENCY AND HOW YOU SEE THAT THE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE SUCH AN IMPORTANT PART OF THE FUTURE OF EGYPT.

SO HOW DO YOU, FROM A PERSONAL PERSPECTIVE OF A PERSON WHO SAYS, "I'M NOT A FAN OF SOCIAL NETWORK, " IN YOUR OWN WORDS, BRING THOSE TWO TOGETHER AND FEEL LIKE, "YES, THIS NEEDS TO HAPPEN.

THEY NEED THE TRANSPARENCY.

THESE YOUNG PEOPLE ARE GOING TO LEAD EGYPT IN A DIFFERENT WAY."

HOW DO YOU DO THAT IN LIKE 30 SECONDS, IF YOU CAN SAY THAT.

>>I WILL.

MY GRANDSON ONCE TOLD ME, "YOU'RE OLD SCHOOL."

I BOUGHT A NEWSPAPER.

SOCIAL NETWORKS EXIST.

SO WHILE I DON'T LIKE THE CHAOS OF NETWORKS, I DON'T IGNORE IT.

AND I ACTUALLY CONTRIBUTE TO IT SUBSTANTIALLY AS MUCH AS I CAN.

I CAN'T ANSWER EVERY QUESTION, BUT I WILL NOT REMAIN IGNORED ON SOCIAL NETWORK AS WELL.

THIS IS PART OF A NEW WORLD THAT MAYBE BECAUSE OF MY AGE OR MATURITY THAT I'M NOT USED TO, BUT I'M NOT IGNORING.

IT'S CHANGE, CHANGE OF THE COURSE.

>>I WANT TO TELL OUR VIEWERS, IF THEY'RE INTERESTED IN EGYPTIAN FOREIGN POLICY TO READ AMBASSADOR FAHMY'S BOOK, WHICH IS ENTITLED EGYPT'S DIPLOMACY IN WAR, PEACE AND TRANSITION.

AND ON THAT NOTE, I WANTED TO ASK YOU, DID YOU ENJOY THE WRITING PROCESS AS MUCH AS YOU HAVE OTHER PARTS OF YOUR CAREER?

>>YES AND NO.

DAVID, YOU KNOW ME WELL.

I'M VERY CURIOUS, BUT NOT VERY DISCIPLINED.

I USED TO WRITE OFF AND ON AND THEN OCCASIONALLY FORGET THAT I SAID THIS SOMEWHERE ELSE.

SO I'M NOT A STRUCTURED WRITER.

I WROTE OUT OF PASSION.

I ENJOYED VERY MUCH THINKING ABOUT THE ISSUES AGAIN AS I WROTE, BECAUSE WRITING IS DIFFERENT FROM SPECIFICALLY SPEAKING, BUT IT TOOK ME A BIT LONGER THAN I WOULD NORMALLY HAVE DONE HAD I HAD WRITTEN AN OUTLINE AND DONE IT STRUCTURALLY.

I ALWAYS ARGUE, ESPECIALLY NOW, THAT POLITICIANS HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO PUT ON PAPER, OR PUT ELECTRONICALLY NOW, THE RECORD OF WHAT THEY'VE DONE AND WHAT THEY THINK.

NOT FOR THEIR OWN LEGACY, BUT BASICALLY TO FILL IN THE FACTS.

NOBODY KNOWS ALL THE FACTS.

MY LONG ANSWER TO YOU IS, I ENJOY THINKING ABOUT IT MUCH MORE THAN WRITING.

AND I REALLY ENJOYED LOOKING AT THE BOOK WHEN IT CAME OUT.

I CAN'T, FRANKLY, IGNORE THAT OR DENY THAT.

>>I ALSO ENJOYED IT.

AND OF COURSE, KNOWING YOU, I COULD DEFINITELY SEE YOUR VOICE IN IT.

WE WANT TO THANK YOU AGAIN FOR JOINING US TODAY.

REALLY A PLEASURE.

>>THANK YOU BOTH VERY MUCH.

I REALLY ENJOYED IT.

>>THANK YOU.

>>AND THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK ON ANOTHER EPISODE OF GLOBAL PERSPECTIVES.