>> From WXXI News.

This is connections.

I'm Evan Dawson.

Our connection this hour was made in 2002, in Moscow, where a comedy show caught the attention of the Putin regime.

The show was called Kukly and it featured a satirical puppet show mocking Putin and other Russian leaders.

Kukly occasionally used grotesque latex puppets to make fun of Putin and former President Boris Yeltsin.

Putin in particular was depicted as a foul mouthed, evil baby gnome.

According to reports from NBC news.

And so in 2002, Putin had had enough.

Kukly was canceled and the network had aired on was taken over by the Russian state oil monopoly.

This was hardly the first time we've seen authoritarians try to cancel comedy or stop comedians from mocking them.

Nazi propaganda minister Joseph Goebbels famously ended the careers of comedians who made fun of Nazi leaders.

It's not always easy to discern when we see history resurfacing.

But last month, when President Trump declared that late night comedians are not allowed to mock him, it was reasonable to feel a kind of convulsion of history.

Now, happily, comedy is still alive and well in the United States.

Comedy comedians are selling out shows in Rochester every week.

The National Comedy Center in Jamestown continues to bring in some of the biggest names in comedy, while building an impressive archive that takes us through history.

And we're going to take this opportunity to learn more about the history of comedy with Journey Gunderson this hour.

Executive director of the National Comedy Center is back with us.

Thanks for being back in Rochester.

Nice to have you in town here.

I know this is not your hometown, so welcome back here.

>> Thank you for having me.

>> What brings you here?

>> I'm attending a cultural gathering of cultural institutions hosted at the Museum of Play at the strong.

>> Very good.

Well, it's great to have you back.

For listeners who don't know by now.

And you should know by now, the National Comedy Center is in Jamestown.

And sometimes people go like Jamestown.

And yes, it is in Jamestown.

The biggest names in comedy go!

You just had Jon Stewart, right?

What was going on with Jon Stewart?

>> Jon Stewart it was the first time he took the stage live to perform stand up.

Shortly after the news of Colbert and his cancellation.

And so he headlined our National Comedy Center annual comedy festival, the Lucille Ball Comedy Festival, and toured the museum.

And it was wonderful.

>> How'd it go?

>> I couldn't be happier.

I mean, I have Jon Stewart, certainly on a pedestal.

As someone who isn't just one of the greatest comedic minds the world may ever know, but someone who is using his art for purpose and upholds the standards of freedom of speech and activism.

And when he toured the museum, I don't think he'd mind me saying he kind of looked at me and said, no one's ever done this for us.

No one's ever done this for comedy, for comedians, or for the art form.

No one ever took the time and effort to build a comprehensive museum that tells the art form, story, and no one ever established a national archive.

So thank you.

And that felt great.

>> What a cool story.

And I want to admit journey.

Before we sat down today knowing that you were coming on, I didn't know how willing you were going to be to touch some of the history, given the heat of the moment and maybe happily to my surprise, you came in loaded for bear with a lot of really, really interesting stories and information that I've never heard that we're going to talk about.

but I want to start by listening to, a clip that is part of the reason that we're talking about some of this history.

So obviously by now, listeners know that Jimmy Kimmel was briefly canceled after the head of the FCC, Brendan Carr, made a threat.

And after the president himself said that Jimmy Kimmel was not allowed to do what he was doing.

I want to listen to what Trump said about comedians, especially late night comedians.

>> Look that's something that should be talked about for licensing, too.

When you have a network and you have evening shows and all they do is hit Trump, that's all they do.

If you go back, I guess they haven't had a conservative on in years or something.

Somebody said, but when you go back and take a look, all they do is hit joke.

They're licensed.

They're not allowed to do that.

They're an arm of the Democrat Party.

Thank you everybody.

>> They're not allowed to do that.

The president said how did that hit your ears?

>> Well, there is a long standing history of comedy speaking truth to power.

And in particular, the late night airwaves, taking the president and whoever's in office at the time to task.

And, you know, we welcomed Tommy and Dick Smothers to the Comedy Center and preserve their archives.

And they were famously fired by CBS after years of taking jabs at the president in office at the time, and also speaking very openly about the conflict in Vietnam, the civil rights movement.

in fact, one of the biggest butting of heads incidents between Tommy Smothers and the writers room and CBS was when Joan Baez performed, the Dylan song I Shall Be Released and dedicated it to her husband at the time, who was refusing to go overseas and fight in Vietnam.

And CBS cut that dedication.

They played her performance, but they eliminated and censored it.

And, of course, Tommy Smothers was incensed.

And that was one of many clashes.

>> Who was the president at the time?

>> Lyndon Johnson.

>> How did that White House view the Smothers Brothers?

>> Well, I've never actually brought an archive piece, an artifact, to a radio show, and I don't tend to read things on air.

But I reread it because it's on display at the Comedy Center.

And it struck me as so pertinent relative to the clip you just played.

So this is President Lyndon Johnson responding to the Smothers Brothers, who wrote to him.

and just for context, their letter to him was kind of apologetic or acknowledging that they have been really hard on him.

They were complimenting him for a speech he gave in the spirit of the Democratic Party and saying, if the opportunity arises, we'd vote for you.

And we know we've been pretty hard on you, and they commend him for taking it so well.

Right.

So that's the context.

And here's his response.

Dear Smothers, dear Mr.

Smothers, I'm very grateful for your kind and thoughtful letter to be genuinely funny at a time when the world is in crisis is a task that would tax the talents of a genius to be consistently fair.

When standards of fair play are constantly questioned, demands the wisdom of a saint.

It is part of the price of leadership of this great and free nation to be the target of clever satirists.

You have given the gift of laughter to our people.

May we never grow so somber or self-important that we fail to appreciate the humor in our lives.

If ever an Emmy is awarded for graciousness, I will cast my vote for you.

Sincerely, President Johnson.

>> Wow.

>> So a little different.

>> A little bit different from the moment.

But again, to be clear, he didn't send that because the Smothers Brothers were cheering him on.

We're going soft.

He was saying, I can take it.

And not only that, we have to be able to take it.

If we're in political leadership, it's vital that we be able to take it.

And now part of what the president is claiming is, well, nobody ever hits Republicans.

It's all or nobody ever hits.

There's no Republicans who are allowed to hit the left.

And, you know, an attorney on the show a couple of weeks ago talking about free speech said, was he not there when president Bill Clinton was under investigation for Monica Lewinsky?

And what late night was saying about him?

There's always there is always a tradition of late night comedy and of comedy in general, mocking powerful people.

I have not seen that flag or lag.

and there are plenty of comedians on the political right who attack the left these days with their comedy, and that's fine, right?

they're they're still out there.

I am I missing something there?

>> No, I would agree with you.

And I think the best and most successful comedy is authentic.

And so a lot of good comedians say just zooming out and talking about the art form in general, that they're at their best when they find their point of view.

And the best comedy is authentic and so much like you saw Jon Stewart.

I don't want to say attacking, but talking about Biden or the number of times Senator Chuck Schumer on the left is the target in recipient of barbs from late night constantly.

So it does go both ways.

And, you know, I think we're just in a new era.

Let's say.

>> Well, I want to listen to some of the response from Jimmy Kimmel when he was brought back on the air after his brief cancellation, his audience saw a skit in which Kimmel claimed he was going to do a satellite interview with the head of the FCC.

But instead of Brendan Carr, we end up seeing who appears on the screen.

It's Robert De Niro who announced that he was now the head of the FCC.

Let's listen.

>> It's just me, Jimmy, the chairman of the FCC, gently suggesting that you gently shut the up.

>> But you can't say that that's a violation of free speech.

>> Oh, yeah, about that speech.

It ain't free no more.

What?

>> It's a free no more.

>> Yeah.

We're charging by the word now.

>> You're charging by the word.

How much are you charging?

>> It depends on what you want to say.

Like you want to say something nice about the president's beautiful, thick, yellow hair, how he can do his makeup better than any broad.

That's free.

Huh?

Okay.

All right.

>> That seems reasonable.

>> But if you want to do a joke like he's so fat, he needs two seats on the Epstein jet, that's, of course.

Okay.

>> Can I just ask this for clarity?

Because it's a pretty good joke.

How much would that one cost me?

>> A couple of fingers.

Maybe a tooth.

And.

>> All right, that's Jimmy Kimmel and Robert De Niro.

And, you know, there were some people who thought Kimmel might pull his punches after the brief cancellation, and he was clearly indicating after what I thought was a really heartfelt 17 minute opening monologue.

He was clearly indicating that it would have been wrong to pull punches.

And I think he he talked a little bit about the lessons of history there.

So I thought that clip was appropriate to show that Kimmel is not going to pull any punches.

But what are you looking for now?

I mean, do you think that that is settled, or do you think there's still going to be pressure on on comedy right now?

>> I doubt that any of it's really settled.

You know, it feels like a fire that's still, you know, got a spark and isn't out.

And who knows who will be next.

And it's not like President Trump isn't explicit in posting on social who he thinks the next targets should be.

So I'm not saying anything that everyone hasn't already seen.

Right.

we asked ourselves, you know, what's our role right now as, as the, you know, over the course of the weekend, when Kimmel was off the airwaves and people were making statements and kind of standing by him and upholding the values of the First Amendment, we said, well, we're a museum and we're a national archive.

And so what we've put resources toward is documenting and capturing this moment in all of the discourse around it, so that, you know, years from now, generations from now, as people look back, the urgency of this moment is captured.

the story of it is preserved in the National Archive, including that 17 minute heartfelt monologue by Kimmel.

And I actually got people reaching out to me via email saying, I hope that someone's preserving this because you can't, you know, really, as a practical matter, preserve everything that happens in comedy in an archive.

But this is a moment that we want to make sure is fully captured in terms of its discourse or what are people in the comedy community saying, you know, when David Letterman speaks up, that's something to capture and preserve and document, and that's the role of the National Archive.

Just like and, you know, context helps, right?

Whether it's to comfort you that this is not the first time it's happened or to just present it in a clearer light so that you can reflect on it.

Our archives, that letter that I read to you would absolutely not be in any archive or museum if we hadn't reached out to Tommy Smothers.

You know, a lot of people throw things away and don't think anybody cares.

And that's what we found when meeting with him at his estate.

And we said, whoa, whoa, don't throw this away.

This is a big one.

This is correspondence with The White House.

But it helps us have context and perspective on this moment with Kimmel.

And we also have the the court papers from the obscenity trials of Lenny Bruce in both L.A.

and New York.

Again, these were with his daughter Kitty, at her home in northeast Pennsylvania.

And who knows what the future of those would be.

And so I'm appreciative that there's this national archive that's now preserving it and putting it on display for people to understand that this isn't the first time, and it probably won't be the last.

>> When did you get that Smothers letter from LBJ?

>> 2019.

>> I mean, of course you couldn't have foreseen the moment in 2025 when that letter would be elevated in importance.

But thank goodness you have it.

>> Right?

Right.

Yes.

It's.

And Tommy literally said to our vice president of archives when she reached out, he said, I don't, I don't I didn't really think anybody still cared, you know.

And he was he said, he actually said I was just about to call one 800 junk and empty the storage unit.

And he wasn't joking.

And so we actually reunited Tommy and Dick on stage at Chautauqua Institution are nearby cultural partner in programing in Western New York, and they hadn't been on stage together in nearly a decade.

And Tommy kind of said it's a 4000 seat venue.

Like, is anybody going to be there?

And I said, oh yeah, and they were greeted by a standing ovation of 4000 people who remembered, you know, and who were there and really appreciated and wanted them to know.

It's time to shape up again.

And it was a beautiful moment.

And that was in 2019.

And it's it's it's important to tell these stories and preserve them.

>> We're talking to Journey Gunderson, the executive director of the National Comedy Center, and that is the United States official cultural institution dedicated to the art of comedy.

That's why Jon Stewart this year said to the senator, like nobody else has done this for us.

There it is.

So if you haven't been I'm sure they would love to see you.

When are you open, by the way?

>> we're open year round, and so we're just closed on Tuesdays and Wednesdays.

Wednesdays in the off season.

And the winters of Western New York.

But otherwise, come and see us.

Just be warned.

Most people come and think, oh, I'll spend a couple hours and then they leave going.

I should have planned to spend a few days.

So there's a lot there.

You can.

>> People come from multiple days?

>> Oh, yeah.

Yeah, yeah.

I mean, just as an example, the George Carlin Archives you could, to use a nice term for it, you could geek out on Carlin's joke notes, of which there are 10,000 scanned for hours and never move and be pretty compelled.

And then in the blue room level, which is all about comedy, pushing boundaries and the story of censorship and taboo throughout comedy's history.

you can learn about FCC versus.

Pacifica, which was a, you know, talk about the FCC being involved.

Here's another story in history, people sometimes forget George Carlin's seven dirty words bit.

He made up the fact he was being facetious when he said, these are the seven dirty words you can't say on television.

And then they became the seven dirty words you couldn't say on television because of the court case history.

Yes, it went all the way to the Supreme Court and it spawned this great portion of Carlin's career where he was making fun of our obsession with words and the power we give them, because a disc jockey played the seven dirty words bit on the radio, on a public radio station of the Pacifica Foundation and still in existence today.

By the way.

And it went to the Supreme Court where they debated, and I won't say them on air, but they debated each of those seven words and then decided, yeah, you can't say those on TV.

>> Are you worried that when we go through history at a moment like this, given how charged it is that you're possible customers, that the people would come see you, the possible audience will say that you're just playing politics.

>> 100%.

We have that discussion, and we're, you know, when people talk about the chill, the chilling that happens with freedom of speech and these moments, like when Kimmel was just suddenly taken off the airwaves.

Yeah.

Everybody, I think gives serious thought to what to say publicly.

I have to look out for the National Archive.

And in this institution and I guess I'll say this.

It's not really our job to opine on what was said as much as provide context and perspective as a museum.

And one of the things we do is look at not just the process and the art form and how the sauce is made in comedy, but how does it affect our lives, and what role does it play?

And right now, what we're doing is documenting this.

You know, I mentioned with the Kimmel incident, but we're looking at comedy's role in our fragile democracy as the source of speaking truth to power in the history of that and sort of making sure people understand that it's not just entertainment.

>> Well, similar to the LBJ, LBJ letter, which Rachel and Canandaigua writes in, to say thank you to your guests for reading the LBJ letter.

That was wonderful.

Too bad our current POTUS is such a child.

I love the Comedy Museum.

I cannot wait to return.

Thank you for today's show.

That's Rachel and Canandaigua.

similar to that, LBJ letter, I think about, the grace and I thought the very wise grace that Kimmel showed during his opening monologue after he returned in tipping a hat to people on the political right who probably can't stand him but understood the gravity of this moment.

Senator Ted Cruz was one of the examples, but but far from the only one.

So I don't think this becomes just Partizan.

I think it's very clear.

that there's always going to be sort of political gamesmanship that happens.

And team sports stuff, but plenty of people on the political right were really unnerved with that stuff.

And I think they will be if it happens again.

So I just, you know, I'm not trying to insulate the guest.

I think it's just the point is this need not be political.

However, I want to listen to another clip that we have.

This comes from another comedian named Shane Gillis.

Now Shane Gillis.

In 2019 was hired to join the staff of SNL.

And pretty quickly after he got fired, NBC corporate found out that on his podcast a year prior, he had made some racially charged remarks about Asian people.

I would say racist remarks about Asian people.

And I'm not trying to get inside Shane Gillis heart.

I will tell you that I often think he's really funny.

I mean, like, I and I also think if you watch him at length, it's not easy to pin a political purpose to his comedy.

There's times where he has really, you know, having fun with the left.

There's times where he's having a lot of fun with the right.

but this particular minute that we're going to listen to was part of his response to getting fired by SNL.

So let's listen.

>> Italians are the last people we can be openly racist against.

And that's that's gonna stop.

And somebody's gonna.

I was the last guy with Asians.

I was the final one.

They were like, nope, nope.

The cutoff was just now you're fired.

Like, what?

I thought we were.

That was the one we were allowed to be.

That's going to happen to somebody with Italians.

Like, I can come up here and be like.

And everyone's like, yeah, it's pretty funny.

Three years, that clip will be shown and be like, whoa!

Which actually this isn't going to go well, but it's funny that that had to happen for every, you know, there was one day where saying it wasn't cool anymore.

Some guy walked into his office and dropped it, and everyone was like, what?

The dude?

He was like.

>> That's a clip that I see shared a lot on the political right.

And the argument they make is this what they claim is that this conversation is ostensibly nonpartisan, but the political left spent years targeting anyone who said anything about racial groups, identity groups, and sought to have them canceled.

And Shane Gillis is just an example.

And so they shared this clip saying, it's funny, but it's true, has there been a realignment in the last few years?

Was there any overcorrection that you see?

How do you see the policing of speech in that way?

That's not coming from the FCC, but it's coming from the culture.

>> I think I would argue, you know, when you said you used the words, I think that the right has been using this Shane Gillis clip to say that the left has been seeing to it that they get canceled.

And that's the part I kind of take issue with, because I think it's actually been kind of organic a lot of times it's a for profit network that decides to do the canceling.

as a result of their perception of are we going to lose money?

Are we going to lose favor?

Are we going to lose advertisers?

And so that's organic to if you like, capitalism, that's part of it.

And that's a form of freedom of speech.

You know, the decision of a for profit entity to cancel someone or a show producer to fire someone from a cast or writing staff.

so that's part of freedom of speech.

I don't think cancel culture should be considered something that is far afield from freedom of speech.

That's kind of everyone's right.

and I think what Shane Gillis is talking about in that bit is evolution.

And it's a natural part of a society evolving where we decide, yeah, we shouldn't be saying that anymore.

And that's okay.

And it reminds me of, you know, when we were building the National Comedy Center, you know, people are always going, oh, so and so was the greatest.

You know, Bill Hicks was the greatest.

And so I was going back and listening to some old Bill Hicks.

And, you know, there are bits he does that today.

You'd go, that's pretty homophobic, right?

But isn't it okay that we've all also evolved like I think it's it's all pretty organic and natural that there's somebody to say, hey, you can't you shouldn't say that.

And here's why it's wrong.

And also that we don't have to vilify that person to the point where, hey, we should never hear from you ever again.

And that's all okay.

Right.

You know.

>> Well, I mean, I understand the point you're making about there's going to be a debate within the culture about where the line is drawn with Hicks.

When you talk about going back and looking at the archives and then seeing some bits going like, whoa, I did not expect to see this, your response is also not like, oh, man, he said this X number of years ago.

Well, I guess no one should ever look at his material again.

That's not your reaction.

Your reaction was to say, all right, let's consider the totality of the person.

Let's consider the context.

And and then different people will have different judgments about whether they want to consume that material or which I think is appropriate in on this program.

I've been hosting since 2014.

I was hosting before the cancellation of Louis C.K., and I understand someone's gonna be like, he's not canceled.

He's doing great.

He's doing he's doing just fine.

He's still doing a lot of comedy.

but everybody, I think, knows what I'm talking about.

The publication of the stories of his behavior toward women and and what got him to lose a show, what got him to lose gigs?

but before then, occasionally we would play clips of Louis C.K.

because I thought some of his material was not only funny, but pretty wise at times.

Talking about technology, talking about gratitude, talking about the way we deal with emotions.

and now I've had listeners like send me emails saying like, you can't play him anymore.

And I understand some people draw different lines.

I'm rarely at that point myself.

I rarely get to the point where I think, okay, this is a we can never listen to this again.

We can never appreciate this bit because this other bit is bad.

But I understand people have different lines.

That's not the same as Brendan Carr or Donald Trump or the FCC.

But I guess I'm wondering if you think the lines got heavy handed at any point.

>> No, I think the room changed.

I think with the internet and things being posted in response, the uproar sticks.

You know, that used to be an uproar that would happen in the room at a at a theater, and then you'd hear some chatter about it.

At best, it might make it into a newspaper or something.

But now we live in a culture where the uproar and the reaction and the backlash can stay a burning ember because the reaction just stays posted and it can get momentum in a different way.

So I think the room changed, and that's why everyone perceives that actually, it's more restricted.

and they're really, you know, some people are upset about political correctness and it's like this is always this is part of evolving and it's okay and it's okay to have the backlash, and it's okay to have some grace in how you handle the backlash.

and I think have the debate.

And like we've seen with the comedy festival.

>> Yeah.

>> Right.

you know, and.

>> Louis C.K.

was one of the ones there, I think.

Right.

Oh, Bill Burr, Louis C.K., I would say Chappelle was, I don't know, the.

>> Chappelle, Kevin Hart.

Kevin Hart, Shane Gillis.

Shane decided not to go.

>> Oh, he did.

>> Shane Gillis was offered a considerable amount of money to go and perform in Saudi Arabia.

And this is an event, to be clear, that's put on by the Saudi government.

It's not a private festival.

>> It's the royal.

>> Family.

That's right.

>> Yeah.

>> And he turned it down and it was a considerable amount of money.

And he said in his case he said, I think his quote was you can't 9/11 your friends.

That was part of what he took issue with.

comedian Tim Dillon.

again, I'm not speaking out of out of school here.

This is stuff you can find, but said accepted the invitation and said something to the effect on a podcast of yeah, they have slaves, but they're paying me enough to look the other way.

Whoa.

Yeah, I know, and then the Saudi government canceled him.

for saying performing.

They just said, never mind.

You're not invited.

So that's pretty fascinating.

And and, you know, I have to say, like Dave Chappelle accepting the invitation, there have been some really, again, urgent moments in our culture where we've looked to Dave Chappelle as an artist who has said some profound things that help us grapple with what's going on, in particular, during the Black Lives Matter movement, as one great example of that.

He's also in the blue room of our museum in a section on taboo and censorship.

There's a joke, one of his jokes about the trans community is there, and it's not there because we support it.

Or we're saying we agree with this point of view.

It's there because this is a museum exhibit that fosters conversation around what's too far and what should be censored and what's offensive to whom.

>> Do you have people who want to take that?

You want you to take that joke out of that room.

>> You know, surprisingly, we've been open since 2018.

I think we've received one email about it.

And I respect that.

They voiced it.

And we responded by explaining, it's not that it's here because we support the point of view.

It's here to foster a conversation.

instead of pretending he didn't say it.

And so when I looked at the Riyadh Comedy Festival, I thought maybe Chappelle would be the type to take the money and go and use the platform.

Like maybe he'll get on that platform and say something to them.

And that reminds me of when the Kennedy Center was politicized this past February.

Trump fired everybody on the board that he didn't appoint and filled the remaining seats on the board with people on the right.

And Conan O'Brien had already been named the recipient of the highest honor in comedy, arguably the Mark Twain Prize for American humor.

And he decided to go through with it, not to walk away, but to use the platform to say what he wanted.

And he did.

He took the stage and said everything he wanted, and every one of his guests, who was part of the show, also said what they wanted to say.

So that's one way to handle it and navigate it.

And I thought, oh, maybe that's what Chappelle will do.

And turns out it's come to light in the last few days that the contract to perform at the festival includes a it restricts you from saying making any jokes that that don't well represent the Saudi government.

Like by signing the contract to perform, you are agreeing to censorship that you won't make any jokes about the government or any religion.

And so how it's played out is the comedians generalizing have said, oh, I know there's some controversy about this, but look at what's going on in the United States with freedom of speech.

We don't have it there either.

So regardless of how you feel about all of that, that's how it's played out, which has been fascinating to watch.

And it's another thing where.

>> Wow.

>> Preserving in the archives.

>> They're using that as a shield to go take the money and say, I wouldn't take the money if I was told, here's what you can't joke about.

That's why I'd be very surprised if I sat down with Dave Chappelle and said, after everything that you've gone through and everything that you've stood up for, whether people like it or not, all the values you profess to have, you're going to take money from a government that tells you, here's where the line is that you can't go over.

I'm surprised at that.

>> Mm.

let me read an email, and then what we'll do is we'll take a break, we'll come back.

I've got another clip to play because it's a comedy hour.

We're trying to have some fun with this here, but we're talking about some pretty serious stuff with Journey Gunderson, executive director of the National Comedy Center in Jamestown.

It's a gem.

I'm not paid to say that journey would be just fine if I said, you know, it was kind of meh.

To me.

But it wasn't.

It's really it's a really special place.

and here's Alex, who says, I remember seeing Bo Burnham speak, not do a set speak in Binghamton in 2017.

He said he was struggling with the thought that comedy, in its own small way, had helped elect Donald Trump in 2016, specifically those who thought all edgy humor was speaking truth to power beyond reproach.

I can't help but think he was right, given the cultural impact of podcasters like Rogan and Theo van Credulously interviewing politicians on their shows.

If George Carlin were alive for this nightmare, do you think he would have let JD Vance leave a set without completely dismantling him?

That's from Alex.

What would George Carlin say to JD Vance now?

I can't speak for George Carlin unfortunately, anymore, but if you do want to read the notes, you said there's thousands of his notes, right?

Yeah.

In the archive, I mean, but easily consumable for people.

Come down the center.

>> Yeah.

and it's bar napkins, hotel stationery, scraps of paper, literally, like the size of a quarter.

And it's great.

You just see these musings.

And because he learned and said to others early on in his career, write it down, write it down, write it down, you think you're going to remember.

But if you want to produce a lot of material, you have to write down these thoughts when you have them.

And then later it's a seedling of an idea that becomes a finished, polished HBO bit.

And you saw Carlin evolve with the culture.

He started out clean cut, hippie dippy weatherman.

He's trying to make a living, and then he becomes counterculture in the 60s.

And then cynical elder statesman in the 80s on HBO with his specials.

But that reminds me relevant to this topic.

If there's one thing it seems a lot of comedians don't take well to, it's being put in a box.

And right now our culture is very much you're red or blue, which jersey are you wearing?

And a lot of comedians can have really strong opinions that might sound like they're on the left.

Really strong opinions on another day that might sound like they're on the right, but you know, they don't necessarily want to be put in that box.

And I think that's what when we think about George Carlin and I speak to Kelly Carlin about this, and people are constantly saying if he was still alive and asserting things, yeah, I think she would say that he didn't like to wear a jersey of either team.

He was just speaking his truth and his perspective, and he was willing to call out corruption.

You know, he was so cynical that his eye was on corruption at all levels.

And the man in power.

And so he was calling it out wherever he saw it, regardless of where it was coming from.

>> I always thought of Carlin as if anything was classist.

He did not appreciate the most powerful people who controlled the most resources, and who used it to make themselves even richer and more powerful.

And that was never about purely right or left for him.

So after we Alex, thanks for the email.

After we take this brief break, I'm going to read Colleen's email, which is going to set up our next clip, and then journeys going to have some time to tell you about what you might be missing.

If you've never been to the National Comedy Center in Jamestown, Journey Gunderson executive director is with us.

We'll come right back.

Coming up in our second hour, it might be the first A.I.

literacy course in New York State.

It's happening at Geneva, and we want to know what high school students are learning, what students in grade school are going to be learning about A.I., what the teacher thinks they should be learning at a time when some students are discovering A.I., ChatGPT and using it to cheat.

We'll talk about it next hour.

>> Support for your public radio station comes from our members and from Mary Cariola Center.

Supporting residents to become active members of the community, from developing life skills to gaining independence.

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>> We've been talking about the history of comedy.

Some of the parallels that we see in 2025, with the federal government seeking to limit speech or block comedy.

It doesn't like what some of the parallels throughout history.

And for a little bit more about the history, there's a book coming out in March that we haven't mentioned yet that I did not know about until this hour.

Journey Gunderson what's coming out in March.

>> In March a book comes out from the National Comedy Center and the Smithsonian Institution called Funny Stuff How Comedy Shaped American History.

And we've been working on it for years.

It's this incredible collection of essays centered around the artifacts in each of our collections.

The Smithsonian's collection and the National Comedy Center's collection.

And these pieces, this funny stuff, quote, unquote, allow us to tell the story of the role that comedy has played throughout our history.

And so, just as an example, Lenny Bruce's trench coat, well, why was he known for wearing a trench coat?

He didn't start much of his career.

He wasn't wearing a trench coat.

He started wearing a trench coat when he was getting arrested from stage, not leaving through the dressing room for what he was saying, for his words.

In his case, he was taking jabs at the Catholic Church and the government, and he had to be ready to spend the night in a cold jail cell.

so that is an artifact that is telling a story.

The Smothers Brothers correspondence with The White House.

We also have things like Saturday Night Live's Episode one script, famously, George Carlin was the first host but didn't do any of the sketches.

iconic things like Johnny Carson's Tonight Show, Rainbow Curtain, Joan Rivers Joke File of 67,000 jokes, talk about someone who was canceled many times.

Or, you know, the way we talk about cancel culture.

Joan, if she were here, would probably say I was probably canceled a dozen times.

I just didn't accept it.

You know?

She just wouldn't go.

You know, she kept coming back.

She didn't care what people thought.

And she wasn't going to hold back.

one interesting thing that's more of a deep cut.

We have the creative papers from the show In Living Color, the sketch comedy show, and we have the censorship reports.

So if you think about the time period and the diverse cast, you have network notes coming down from an all white corporate room, and they're censoring these sketches that represent an authentic experience of the cast.

So you can see kind of racism and classism even in the censorship reports.

We have original drafts from the writers of I Love Lucy Reiner's Van Dike Show, first drafts and concepts, and even an Ernie Kovacs makeup kit, which, you know, Ernie Kovacs was figuring out, as Letterman said, figuring out what to do with television as a medium when it didn't know what to do with itself.

In the early 1950s.

So it's an incredible book.

It comes out in March, and check it out.

>> Books called Funny Stuff How Comedy Shaped American History.

Can we just put an invite to them to come back in March when it comes out?

So I don't know if it would be you.

I don't know whoever the whoever's involved here.

Sure.

You're all welcome back here.

>> Oh thank you.

>> And that is if comedy is still allowed in this country in March, we're going to come back and do that for sure.

That is a that is a great idea.

okay.

So let me let me grab an email from Colleen who says Evan, I saw Jon Stewart in Jamestown front row.

So cool.

I also saw Josh Johnson at the Kodak Center here in Rochester.

Trevor, Trevor Noah at the Seneca Niagara Casino, all within the last six weeks.

and those performers were fabulous, but they avoided political jokes or commentary in their live shows.

Thank you for today's show.

And every show that's from from Colleen.

So on the subject of avoiding political commentary, I think there's different categories in comedy.

The way my brain works now, I mean, I think there's comedy comedians who are pretty clearly more on the political left.

Rob Schneider and people like that pretty clearly on the political right.

And then there's some like Shane Gillis, who you don't kind of know, and he's going to have fun going after people on all sides.

And then there's some who want no part of politics at all and profess to say that they try to create a respite for from all of the politics.

So I want to listen to a clip from a guy who, who do you think sold out the biggest venue in Rochester last week in comedy?

Quick.

What comedian Nonpartizan nonpolitical comedian comes to Rochester, sells out the biggest venue here with triple digit tickets here.

I mean, who do you think it would be?

>> Sandler.

>> No, no, no, that's interesting choice.

as someone who's not, I guess not.

Partizan.

Yeah, I haven't thought about that.

Nate.

Bargatze.

So Nate Bargatze and I just want to listen to a clip just to kind of get a taste of it because listeners, I would say if you've never heard Nate Bargatze, this is actually you've all heard it.

This is just an excuse for me to play a clip.

It's one of my favorite Nate Bargatze clips.

He's talking about.

he's talking about getting the silent treatment in a relationship and how powerful and how common that is, and how routine that is, especially for men in relationships.

So let's listen.

>> Silent treatment.

Silent treatment is it's a very common thing.

Everybody knows what it is.

I think women are just born knowing it.

I don't think you're taught it.

I don't think it's like my mom did it, and her mom.

It's an instinct that's in us all that we all just know.

And what.

Here's what made me think of that.

I rewatched the movie Sixth Sense, and I'm not trying to do a sixth sense joke.

This is a 20-year-old movie.

I also have to spoil it, but it's I mean, it's 20 years old, so if if you don't know by now, I don't know what to tell you.

You know, and don't be like, we're going to watch it tonight.

We're going to go to blockbuster on the way home and.

There's but so he's you know, he's dead the whole time and I don't know.

I mean, that's if you haven't seen it, that's a it's a pretty big part of it.

But.

For those that have think about when you watched it, when we all saw this movie for the first time, none of us knew he was dead.

That was the biggest surprise we've ever seen in our life.

You know, we just thought his wife wasn't talking to him for like, a year.

That made more sense to us than him possibly being dead.

And I was like, when I watched it, I was like, what do they show him?

Dying?

Yeah, that guy shoots him with a gun.

That's how the movie start.

That's how obvious.

They're like, hey, he's dead.

And we still watched it for two hours.

Just like, I know what this guy's going through.

You know?

This is this is a movie about marriage.

>> It's a great clip, isn't it?

Oh.

It's phenomenal.

Yeah.

And there's no politics.

And Sakaguchi has been asked about it and he said, people get enough politics elsewhere.

He'll let other comedians tackle it.

I guess I just want to ask you, if you feel like there's too much pressure on comedians to be political.

He is one of the most successful comedians in the world right now, because I think partially because he's not.

You could have gone to that Rochester show that sold out, and you would have found people from all different political backgrounds.

I saw a post on social media, people from all backgrounds, they didn't care.

So, you know, comedy doesn't have to be political, and it can be really lovely when it's not political.

Right?

I mean, is there a lesson there, or am I looking too, too hard?

>> No, I and this does come up all the time.

There was an article, I think, in the it was in one of the trades about Jay Leno, and he was quoted not long ago kind of saying something similar, like, people don't need to hear that from me.

They get enough of it elsewhere.

And I think my take on that is when you look at the art form of comedy again, people think their funniest when they're authentic.

And so if Jay Leno feels that his natural comedic voice is not very Partizan, that's Jay Leno at his best.

And if Colbert, if you look at when Colbert started in the late night time slot, and I think he was not as pointed, you know, the monologue wasn't 100%, you know, about the news of the day in terms of Trump or whatever.

and his ratings got better when he became more political.

And I, I don't think that says as much about who's in the audience as much as it does that that was his authentic comedic voice.

And that's why he was just killing it when he was willing to just allow himself to do that.

And we've changed the consumption of this media has changed because when there are multiple choices at 1130, unlike the Carson era, everyone's doing these comparisons to Johnny Carson.

And he, you know, he wasn't very political.

Well, he was kind of the only guy.

And so he had a very, very broad audience.

He really took his role as I'm speaking to the entire country.

And I'm not saying that Colbert or Kimmel or Seth Meyers aren't doing that.

But when there are multiple choices in Late Night there might be a tendency to kind of find your tribe with your material more.

And it worked for the ratings.

So I think it's fine if Jay Leno doesn't want to be political.

I think if I think Nate Bargatze is one of the greatest to play the game, he's on our advisory board and I absolutely love him.

He headlined the year before.

Stuart.

and I am grateful for the role that comedy plays in our culture, where it helps us just get through the day and it's cathartic and it's an elixir and that's that's important too.

So it's all good.

>> A lot of different.

I that's a really important point.

I think about media fragmentation, the Carson era.

There were so I mean, there was three, five and eight in my household that was in Cleveland growing up.

NBC, ABC and CBS.

Everybody's like, is it on three, 5 or 8?

That's it.

There's three stations.

My 13-year-old will never comprehend the lack of choice and how, frankly, freeing that was to not just feel totally.

I can kind of was right.

Like, well, there's only if you didn't like what was on the three stations.

I know you went outside.

I guess, you know, maybe you put a record on.

Now I'm starting to really sound like, get off my lawn guy, but that's an interesting point because the fragmentation, I think, encourages polarization might be the right word.

It's polarization in part.

>> politicization, perhaps.

it definitely does not discourage that.

So.

>> Right.

Yeah.

The same way people during the elections, of course, for the last few cycles, people will say, oh, the way Facebook ads and the way political ads work, there's the algorithms and they're trying to figure out who you are and then serve up content that matches what they think your beliefs are and that that pushes, that leads to more polarization.

Well, it's the same, like you say, about choice in consumption of media, that we're not just turning into Walter Cronkite or Johnny Carson anymore.

You kind of have to choose.

And so there are a lot of people being paid a lot of money to try to figure out what they think you want to choose and serve it up to you in that way.

And it's an evolution.

>> Lee writes, to say, Evan and Journey, the National Comedy Center is an absolute gem and so incredibly important.

The depth and inclusiveness of not only the content, but accessibility to the content was remarkable.

The interactive nature of the exhibits makes this a standout experience.

We ended up coming in at the beginning of the festival, so we attended a few of the special events and we met such lovely people.

We had so many interactions with the volunteers, the staff and the other museum attendees.

Comedy is a mirror and a portal and when done well, it can make you uncomfortable and provoke thought and conversation.

Thank you for your commitment to preserving this very important history, and thank you connections for the show that comes from Lee.

Although it comes from your email address journey.

That's strange.

>> Oh, you had me.

>> That's a really.

>> I was like, what?

No, no.

>> That's a beautiful email.

That's great.

>> He's joking.

For the record, that's so funny.

That is a beautiful email.

I love Lee lifetime membership.

Lee.

>> Yeah are there.

>> But that was really nice.

>> Thank you know, it's funny you say that, but I. I'm not teeing this up.

Are there different memberships?

What's it cost to come if you go multiple times.

Are there.

You know, do sometimes people just go for an actual show.

So how does it work.

>> If you are passing through the region and you have an hour or two, you're going to leave more than satisfied and delighted that you did it and feel like you got your money's worth.

The price of admission is 3550. but I remember when we were touring people through in beta phase before we had opened, and I would ask them at the end, like, what do you think the price of admission should be now that you've experienced it?

And they'd say, I don't know, 70, $80.

Like based on other experiences and what you get for that these days.

So it's pretty reasonable.

we also have a number of accessibility programs you know, there's a program we participate in called museums for All.

If you receive Snap benefits, you can come to our attraction for I think it's $2.

look that up on our website.

We also have discounts for senior citizens, military veterans children and locals to Chautauqua County.

So yes, there's a membership.

And a lot of times what people do, they don't know why they'd want the membership.

They arrive, pay the admission, and then they get it.

They go, oh, the membership is an annual season pass where I can come as many times as I want.

Now I want the membership.

So we'll apply the admission you already paid toward your membership for the year, and members also get first crack at the tickets to the comedy festival.

You get a presale.

So when Jon Stewart goes on sale and only does one show in a 2200 seat, relatively intimate venue for what he could be selling out.

you get a week or a few days, depending on the artist of first access to those tickets if you're a member.

But here's the other reason.

Again, I'm not trying to do a plug either.

This is really important work to sustain, and it's difficult.

It's I raise money to sustain this work.

>> Yeah, yeah.

>> And you know, we're in competition with causes that are curing diseases feeding the hungry.

>> Like, really worthy causes.

>> Yeah, like really worthy causes.

And I'm saying help us preserve comedy's heritage.

But it is really important.

It's a humanities aspect of of preservation and archives.

And so if you believe in this work, you know, make it just part of your portfolio of giving if you have the means to do so or, you know, get the membership and feel good about supporting this place.

>> What's your website.

>> Comedy Center.org we are a 501 three nonprofit.

>> Comedy Center.org David listening in Vancouver, Canada, says, I'm old enough to remember when Tommy and Dick read LBJ's letter on the air.

Our whole family always watched the Smothers Brothers after Ed Sullivan every Sunday.

Their subversive, comedy influenced and influences me to this day.

That's from David.

So shout out there.

So about 90s left here, what else is coming up here?

So we've talked a lot about what you've been doing.

We talked about the book that's coming out in March.

What else is on the calendar you're excited about?

>> Well, I'm glad the gentleman from Vancouver mentioned Ed Sullivan.

It's a great segue.

we are we are very fortunate to have just acquired the archives of a comedic duo that was on Ed Sullivan, 36 times, and it is none other than Stiller and Meara, Anne Meara and Jerry Stiller and Ben Stiller, their son.

Maybe you've heard of him donated the archives to us.

and he, of course, is just now premiering his documentary he did about his parents and this amazing comedy duo.

And we talk about what's taboo at their during their heyday of going on Ed Sullivan.

They were presenting as an interfaith marriage, and that was pretty taboo.

She was Irish Catholic, and he was Jewish.

And so that came out in their comedy shtick together.

And that was important for people.

And again, considered, oh, this is pretty taboo for the time.

And so we're thrilled, you know, that the floodgates have opened.

This is, again, there was no one stepping up to preserve this stuff.

until now.

And Stiller and Meara, a great example of an artistic duo that's worthy of being put on a pedestal and evaluated and celebrated for generations to come.

And we're happy to do it.

>> And my guess is, once people in comedy understand you're doing this kind of preservation work, you're going to keep getting archives, you're going to get more and more as you go.

So comedy center.org close with this.

Sam wants to know, can you ask your very cool guest if it's ever too soon?

Thank you.

I think it has to be too soon for some stuff to joke about.

I would think.

>> There's an exhibit that's literally called Too Soon.

>> Oh, this person knows it.

>> Yeah.

So go into the blue room, go down the elevator.

And in that exhibit we look at it through the lens.

Well, you'll check it out when you get there.

>> Okay.

That's from Sam.

So.

Okay.

Do you think it's ever too soon?

>> It's okay to feel that it's too soon.

That's kind of the point.

I think it's okay to feel some people will hear a joke that's too soon.

Let's say someone in the room feels better because that joke was made.

Someone else feels upset, and that's okay.

>> What a what a conversation this hour.

Thank you for making the time for us.

Thanks for coming in.

We'll see you down at the Comedy Center or we'll see you back here in March with the team.

When you want to come back here with a new books out, is that good?

>> That's right.

>> Comedy.

Center.org Journey Gunderson, executive director of the National Comedy Center.

Just about two, 2.5 hours away.

Piece of cake.

More connections coming up in a moment.

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