FREE SPEECH AND NATIONAL SECURITY.

CAN A LEGAL RESIDENT BE DEPORTED IF HE HASN'T BROKEN THE LAW?

TARIFFS ARE UP AND WALL STREET IS DOWN.

WHAT'S THE GOAL BEHIND OUR ECONOMIC POLICY?

AND WE'LL TAKE A LOOK AT THE LEGACY OF POPE FRANCIS.

STAY TUNED FOR IVORY TOWER, NEXT.

♪ ♪ ♪ ♪ GOOD EVENING.

WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FROM UTICA UNIVERSITY.

I'M JOINED THIS WEEK BY SARAH PRALLE FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, CHAD SPARBER FROM COLGATE UNIVERSITY, ANIRBAN ACHCARYA FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE, AND JENNIFER STROMER-GALLY FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

OFFICERS FROM IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT HAVE ARRESTED AND ARE THREATENING TO DEPORT A PRO-PALESTINIAN ACTIVIST WHO LED PROTESTS LAST YEAR AT COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY.

MAHMAUD KHALIL IS A LEGAL RESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND MARRIED TO A U.S. CITIZEN.

HE'S NOW BEING HELD IN AN IMMIGRATION JAIL IN LOUISIANA WHILE HIS CASE IS PENDING.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THIS IS THE "FIRST ARREST OF MANY."

THIS CASE TOUCHES BOTH FREE SPEECH AND NATIONAL SECURITY EXCEPTIONS TO THE FIRST AMENDMENT .

SHOULD KHALIL BE DEPORTED?

>> SO, I WANT TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO WHO THE VISUAL SPOKESPERSON FOR THIS, WHICH IS MARK OWE RUBIO.

MARK OWE RUBIO IS SECRETARY OF STATE.

TYPICALLY THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS NO GENERALLY HAS NO ROLE IN TYPICAL DEPORTATION PROCEEDINGS.

IT SHOULD BE CHRISTIE FROM HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

THE LEGAL GROUNDS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS A LITTLE KNOWN PROVISION THAT ALLOWS THE SECRETARY OF STATE TO DEEM-- IDENTIFY AND DECLARE IF AN INDIVIDUAL WHO IS HERE IN THE COUNTRY COULD BE A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY, AND IS SAY, A LEGAL IMMIGRANT.

SO THAT IS HIGHLY UNUSUAL.

THIS PARTICULAR CASE HAS ONLY BEEN USED IN A VERY SMALL SET OF CASES.

THE ONE TIME IT HAS BEEN USED THAT THERE WAS A CHALLENGE TO THIS IDEA OF THE SECRETARY OF STATE UNILATERALLY DECIDING THAT SOMEBODY IS A THREAT TO NATIONAL SECURITY, IT WAS CHALLENGED.

AND THE CHALLENGE SAID THAT IT WAS UNCONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT THROUGH SOME KIND OF LEGAL COMPLICATIONS, IT ULTIMATELY NEVER LEFT THE LAW BOOKS.

SO THAT'S THE GROUNDS, SHOULD HE BE DEPORTED?

THE QUESTION IS HAS HE ACTUALLY ENGAGED IN ANY KIND OF ILLEGAL ACTIVITIES?

HE WAS NOT ARRESTED.

HE HASN'T BEEN SANCTIONED BY HIS UNIVERSITY.

>> BUT DOES HE HAVE TO HAVE BROKEN THE LAW TO BE DEPORTED?

THIS CIRCUMSTANCE?

>> I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK YOUR ANALYSIS IS EXCELLENT BECAUSE I DON'T THINK THIS IS LIKE A FREE SPEECH CASE.

I THINK THIS IS AN EXECUTIVE POWER CASE.

ON THE ONE HAND I'M SYMPATHETIC TO THE TERRORISM AND SYMMETRY ARGUMENTS THAT HAVE BEEN MADE THAT WE CAN PREVENT ALIENS WHO HAVE ENDORSED TERRORIST ACTIVITY FROM ENTERING THE COUNTRY.

WE SHOULD BE ABLE TO DEPORT RESIDENT ALIENS FOR DOING THE SAME AND THEN THE QUESTION IS, YOU KNOW,WAS CA KHALIL ENDORSING HAMAS.

BUT THAT'S NOT WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THE STATUTE THAT THE SECRETARY OF STATE HAS THE RIGHT TO DEPORT THESE PEOPLE AS LONG AS THERE ARE ANY NEGATIVE FOREIGN POLICY CONSEQUENCES.

THAT STRIKES ME AS AN INCREDIBLY LOW BAR AND RUBIO HAS SAID THAT WE HAVE THE RIGHT TO DENY YOU FOR VIRTUALLY ANY REASON.

AND SO IF THIS IS SUCCESSFUL, I THINK IT WOULD GIVE ENORMOUS POWER TO FUTURE SECRETARIES OF STATE AND THAT SHOULD ALARM ALL OF US.

>> IF THE SECRETARY OF STATE, IF IT IS HIS DECISION, AND IF HIS DECISION THAT HE IS A THREAT IS BASED ON SPEECH, IS THAT NOT A FIRST AMENDMENT?

A FIRST AMENDMENT ARGUMENT?

>> I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK YOU JUST HAVE TO APPEAL IS THERE A FOREIGN POLICY INTEREST?

YOU GET ONE FOREIGN LEVERED WHO SAID WE ARE BETTER OFF.

>> THEY CAN ENGAGE IN CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED FREE SPEECH BUT IT COMES WITH THE CAVEAT AND THIS IS THE IMMIGRATION LAW THAT CLINTON PASSED.

IT COMES WITH THE CAVEAT THAT EVEN THOUGH YOU HAVE THE RIGHT TO SAY THINGS THAT ARE CONSTITUTIONALLY PROTECTED, AND THE GOVERNMENT CANNOT DO ANYTHING; HOWEVER, HERE IS THE CATCH WORD.

IF THERE IS AN UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE IS A THREAT TO FOREIGN POLICY AND NATIONAL SECURITY INTERESTS OF THE U.S., THEN THE SECRETARY OF STATE, EVEN IF YOU DID NOT COMMENT A CRIME, TO MOVE TO DEPORT FROM YOU THE UNITED STATES.

AND THAT APPLIES TO PERMANENT RESIDENTS ALSO.

I DON'T THINK HE SHOULD BE DEPORTED BUT... >> THAT'S THE PRETEXT FOR DEPORTING HIM, RIGHT IF HE IS BEING DEPORTED.

THE ACTUAL REASON HE IS BEING DEPORTED IS BECAUSE OF HIS SPEECH AND PROTEST WHICH ARE PROTECTED UNDER THE FIRST AMENDMENT FOR LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENTS AS WELL.

SO I MEAN WE CAN SAY IT'S FOR THIS OBSCURE REASON THAT UNPRECEDENTED AND NEVER GETS USED.

IN FACT HE'S PUNISHING PEOPLE WHOSE SPEECH AND ACTIONS HE DOESN'T LIKE BUT WHICH ARE PERFECTLY LEGAL AND WHICH WE SHOULD BE STANDING UP FOR AS A COUNTRY.

>> WHAT WORRIES ME IS THIS MOVE TO NOW USE THE LABELING OF TERRORISM AS THE EXCUSE.

I'M WATCHING IT HAPPENING NOW THE DEBATE ON SOCIAL MEDIA, PEOPLE INSTANTLY WHEN THEY HEAR OH BUT IF HE IS A TERRORIST, THEN WE DON'T WANT HIM IN THIS COUNTRY.

HE NEEDS TO BE DEPORTED AND AGAIN THERE ARE ECHOS HERE OF POST 9/11 MOVES BY THE GOVERNMENT AND BY CIVIL SOCIETY TO SAY WE DON'T WANT INTERNAL THREATS.

AND I FIND ALL OF THIS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.

>> I SHOULD SAY, TOO, YOU KNOW, I'M AN EXPERT ON THE ECONOMICS OF IMMIGRATION, NOT AT ALL THE LEGAL ASPECTS OF IMMIGRATION REALLY.

THE CLAIM THAT, YOU KNOW, THE LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENTS HAVE CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT IS TRUE BUT ALSO NOT.

SO 2008 PBS HAD A PIECE OUTLYING IMMIGRANTS RIGHTS THAT BASICALLY SAID THEY HAVE A RIGHT TO DUE PROCESS BUT THOSE RIGHTS ARE NOT AS STRONG AS THOSE THAT ARE GRANTED TO U.S. CITIZENS.

AND DUE PROCESS MAY NOT INCLUDE THE RIGHT TO SEE A JUDGE AND THE BAR FOR WHAT CONSTITUTES EVIDENCE IS VERY LOW.

SO MY POINT IS, LIKE I THINK THE CLAIM ABOUT THEIR CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS IS MORE COMPLICATED THAN TO SAY... AND NOT THAT-- NOT I'M SAYING IT'S RIGHT OR IT MAKES ME FEEL PERFECTLY COMFORTABLE.

>> THIS IS WHAT TRUMP DOES, RIGHT?

HE PUSHES THE SO CALLED OVERTON WINDOW, THE CONCEPT THAT POLICY PEOPLE LIKE TO THROW AROUND, WHICH IS THE SET OF IDEAS AND POLICIES AND GOVERNMENT ACTIVITIES THAT FALL WITHIN A RANGE OF SORT OF ACCESSIBILITY, RIGHT?

AND THAT THAT WINDOW CAN SHIFT OVER TIME.

SO THAT IDEAS THAT SEEMED FRINGE OR CRAZY OR LIKE REALLY ON THE OUTLIERS, BECOME MORE ACCEPTABLE.

TYPICALLY THIS HAPPENS GRADUALLY OVER TIME AND TRUMP CONTINUOUSLY DOES THIS, RIGHT?

HE TAKES THESE KIND OF FRINGE IDEAS, EXCEPTIONS AND HE TRIES TO MAKE THEM ACCEPTABLE.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THEN IT BECOMES A NEW NORM.

IT BECOMES ACCEPTABLE.

THE PEOPLE AROUND HIM DON'T STOP HIM, RIGHT?

POLITICAL ELITES, YOU KNOW, INDIRECTLY ENDORSE IT AND THAT MEANS THE PUBLIC STARTS TO THINK THAT I GUESS THIS IS OKAY.

SO IF WE THINK KHALIL IS THE LAST PERSON THAT IS GOING TO BE SUBJECT TO THIS, WE ARE KIDDING OURSELVES; THAT EVEN JUST LEGAL PERMANENT RESIDENTS OR IMMIGRANTS ARE SUBJECT TO THIS.

NO, I THINK NONE OF US CAN FEEL REALLY SAFE.

>> I VERY MUCH AGREE THE CHILLING EFFECT.

THE IDEA THAT TERRORISM HAS BECOME THE BUZZ WORD AROUND THE WORD.

THE GOVERNMENT IN INDIA DOES IT AND PHILIPPINES DO IT FOR DRUG USERS.

IF YOU GO BACK TO U.S. HISTORY DURING THE SOUTH AFRICAN APARTHEID, THE ECONOMISTS PROTESTING, BUT THIS LAW BOOK HAS NOT BEEN THROWN AND THIS IS THE TEST CASE THAT TRUMP WANTS TO SEE HOW FAR THIS CAN BE TAKEN.

THIS WILL HAVE A CHILLING EFFECT.

>> HE HAS SAID THIS WILL BE THE FIRST OF MANY.

>> AND THEY'VE ALREADY IDENTIFIED ADDITIONAL STUDENTS.

>> I THINK ANYONE-- HE CALLS ANYONE WHO DISAGREES WITH HIM UNAMERICAN.

>> HE SAYS UNAMERICAN ACTIVITY.

BACK TO THE McCARTHY KIND OF SITUATION.

>> NOW...

THE STOCK MARKET HAS FALLEN SHARPLY-THE S AND P IS 500 NOW IN CORRECTION TERRITORY, AND SUDDENLY THERE'S TALK OF RECESSION.

TARIFFS HAVE BEEN ON AND OFF AND ON AND OFF; NOW THE PRESIDENT SAYS APRIL 2ND IS THE FINAL DEADLINE FOR IMPOSING TARIFFS ON MEXICO AND CANADA.

THE EUROPEAN UNION HAS ANNOUNCED RETALIATORY TARIFFS ON U.S. EXPORTS TO TAKE EFFECT NEXT MONTH-- TRUMP THREATENED 200 PERCENT TARIFFS IN RETURN.

EARLIER THIS WEEK -CHINA- BEGAN IMPOSING TARIFFS ON AMERICAN FARM PRODUCTS.

WHAT'S THE END GAME FOR THIS APPROACH AND ARE WE PERMANENTLY DAMAGING THE ECONOMY?

>> WELL, YEAH I MEAN TRUMP DESCRIBED THE ECONOMY AS GOING THROUGH A PERIOD OF TRANSITION.

PLEASE TELL ME THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THAT AND BIDEN'S CLAIM THAT INFLATION IS JUST TRANSITORY.

THERE IS A QUOTE PHIL GRAHAM AND DONALD BOURDEAUX HAD A PIECE IN THE "WALL STREET JOURNAL" THAT SAYS ECONOMICALLILY AND POLITICAL THEIR THROUGHOUT AMERICAN HISTORY.

SO ABOUT THE ONLY DEFENSE THAT I CAN MUSTER FOR THIS IS THAT BOTH TRUMP AND BIDEN ENACTED PROTECTIONIST MEASURES IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

IF YOU ARE GOING TO GEAR UP FOR WAR, IT WOULD MAKE SENSE TO WANT DOMESTICALLY PRODUCED CHIPS, STEEL OR ALUMINUM.

BUT BOTH MEN FAVORED PROTECTIONISM BEYOND THAT NARROW WINDOW, THAT NARROW FOCUS AND THEY DID SO AT THE EXPENSE OF OUR ALLIES.

TRUMP MORE EXPLICITLY SO THAN BIDEN.

REGARDLESS, TERRIBLE IDEA.

TERRIBLE FOR THE ECONOMY.

>> CENTRAL NEW YORK, THERE IS A REALLY GOOD ARTICLE IN THE SYRACUSE PAPER ABOUT THE ECONOMIC IMPACT ON CENTRAL NEW YORK.

SO BASICALLY, FOR MORE THAN ONE DOLLAR IN EIGHT THAT IS PRODUCED IN GOODS IN CENTRAL NEW YORK GOES TO CANADA.

AND THAT PRISON CITY (INAUDIBLE) IN AUBURN HAS ANNOUNCED THAT, YOU KNOW, BASICALLY THEY'RE LOOKING AT POTENTIALLY $100,000 OF ADDITIONAL COSTS BECAUSE THEY GET THEIR HOPS, THEIR BARLY AND THEIR CANS FROM CANADA.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, THE IMPACT HERE IS GOING TO BE STRONG AND CLEAR VERY SOON.

>> WELL, CAN'T THEY GET THEIR HOPS AND THEIR BARLY AND THEIR CANS FROM AMERICAN PRODUCERS?

>> THAT IS THE THING, RIGHT?

CAN UNITED STATES RAMP UP PRODUCTION AT THAT LEVEL SO THAT IT DOESN'T LEAD TO PRICE INCREASES?

I DOUBT THAT.

BUT I WANT TO HAVE A LONGER HISTORICAL PERSPECTIVE, WHICH IS THAT IN THE 19th CENTURY, WE HAD THIS AMERICAN SYSTEM, FREDERICK IN GERMANY INFLUENCED QUINCY ADAMS AND OTHERS ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT PROTECTIONISM HELPS COUNTER LARGE-- STATES AND THEY WENT AGAINST WEALTH OF NATION BY ADAM SMITH AND SAID YOU KNOW, WE NEED A PROTECTIONIST SYSTEM WHERE WE INCREASE AMERICAN INDUSTRIES.

WE INVEST IN INFRASTRUCTURE AND A NATIONAL BANK.

I DON'T SEE TRUMP DOING THIS FOR INFRASTRUCTURE.

AND I DON'T THINK-- BUT I THINK THEY HAVE A VISION THAT THE ENTIRE WORLD IS AMERICA AN I'LLIST.

AND TAKING ADVANTAGE OF THE UNITED STATES.

WHEN I SEE THESE ARTICLES, NO ECONOMISTS HAVE ANY IDEA EXACTLY HOW MUCH PRICE WILL INCREASE HOW RESPONSIVE THE DEMAND IS TO THE PRICE INCREASES.

BUT THE FEDERAL RESERVE OF ST. LOUIS PREDICTED NEGATIVE 3% TERRITORY.

>> G.D.P.

GROWTH.

>> I CAN TALK ABOUT THAT.

>> AND MAYBE THAT'S A PROBLEM, RIGHT?

IF PRICES INCREASE, PEOPLE PRODUCE LESS.

IF PEOPLE PRODUCE LESS, PEOPLE LAY OFF.

IF PEOPLE LAY OFF, YOU HAVE UNEMPLOYMENT AND HENCE RECESSION.

>> AND THAT'S NOT COUNTING THE DIRECT PRICES OF CONSUMERS WHO ARE PAYING THE TARIFFS ESSENTIALLY AND THERE HAS BEEN RESEARCH THAT SHOWS ESTIMATED COSTS OF $1200 PER FAMILY IF YOU HAVE A 10% TARIFF ON CHINA, 25% ON CANADA AND MEXICO AND THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE THE RISING PRICE OF COMPETITORS.

SO COMPETITORS AT HOME AS PRICES ON IMPORTS GO UP, THEY CAN RAISE THEIR PRICES AS WELL SO IF YOU FACTOR THOSE IN, THAT'S MORE LIKE A $2,000 TAX ON EVERYDAY CITIZENS.

LET'S NOT FORGET HE ALSO WANTS TO REDUCE TAXES ON THE VERY WEALTHY, RIGHT?

SO PART OF HIS APPARENT LOGIC OF THESE TARIFFS IS WE ARE GOING TO RAISE LOTS OF REVENUE AND HE NEEDS TO QUOTE RAISE REVENUE IN ORDER TO PAY FOR THESE TAX CUTS THAT GO TO THE RICH.

IT'S JUST GOING TO EXACERBATE INEQUALITY.

>> I WANT TO ADDRESS A COUPLE THINGS ANIRBAN SAID.

TRUMP, LIKE ALL AMERICA AN TILISTS-- MERCANTILE.

YOU REFERENCED THIS CENTRAL BANK KIND OF PREDICTION WHERE THE ECONOMY IS GOING AN ECONOMIST WROTE DON'T TRUST THE NUMBERS THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE TYPICAL INDICATORS LIKE UNEMPLOYMENT AND INFLATION.

RIGHT NOW THEY'RE FINE.

BUT DON'T EXPECT THEM TO STAY FINE FOR LONG.

SO TO HIM, HE IS TALKING ABOUT THESE REAL THREATS THAT ARE WITH CHAOS, UNCERTAINTY, LACK OF FISCAL DISCIPLINE AND JUST COMPLETELY UP ENDING THE WORLD ORDER.

SO DON'T EXPECT NECESSARILY THESE NEGATIVE EFFECTS IMMEDIATELY BUT THEY'RE CERTAINLY COMING.

>> I WANT TO TAKE UP THE NEGATIVE KIND OF IMPLICATIONS MORE GLOBALLY.

SO I HAVE BEEN PAYING A LOT OF ATTENTION TO TRUMP'S ARGUMENTS AROUND CANADA.

HE HAS, AS YOU KNOW, RIGHT, BEEN VERY DISMISSIVE ABOUT GOVERNOR TRUDEAU, TALKING ABOUT, GOING BACK TO YOUR CLAIM, RIGHT, JUST CONTINUALLY MAKING THE CLAIM THAT CANADA SHOULD BE THE 51st STATE.

HE HAS ARGUED THAT HIS GOAL IS TO BASICALLY ECONOMICALLY DESTABILIZE CANADA SO THE UNITED STATES CAN TAKE CANADA OVER.

I WANT US TO TAKE THAT ARGUMENT SERIOUSLY.

BECAUSE AS YOU SAID, RIGHT, WHEN YOU MAKE AN ARGUMENT THAT INITIALLY SOUNDS WILD AND CRAZY AND LIKE THAT'S NOT POSSIBLE.

OVER TIME, YOU KEEP MAKING THE ARGUMENT AND MAKING THE ARGUMENT AND SUDDENLY THAT BECOMES REALITY.

HONESTLY, FRIENDS, IT WILL NOT SURPRISE ME IF WE SEE TROOPS ON THE BORDER IN A YEAR.

>> I HAD A FRIEND WHO BASICALLY SAID, LOOK, A MAN WHO IS WILLING TO REACH OUT AND GRAB A WOMAN WITHOUT HER CONSENT DOESN'T KNOW BOUNDARIES.

THIS CANADA THING IS A MANIFESTATION.

>> WE HAVE TO TAKE HIM LITERALLY.

THAT'S THE PROBLEM THAT PEOPLE ARE NOT.

>> REALLY SERIOUSLY.

POPE FRANCIS HAS BEEN CRILGTLY WILL AND LAKE LIKELY WON'T LEAD THE CATHOLIC CHURCH FOR MUCH LONGER.

SOME CATHOLICS CONSIDER HIS PAPACY REVOLUTIONARY, ESPECIALLY REGARDING GAY RIGHTS.

SOME SAY HE'S BEEN TOO LIBERAL, OTHERS NOT LIBERAL ENOUGH.

WHETHER YOU'RE A PRACTICING CATHOLIC OR NOT, THE POPE IS ALWAYS AN IMPORTANT WORLD FIGURE.

SO, ANIRBAN, YOU KNOW, HOW SIGNIFICANT A POPE HAS HE BEEN?

>> YOU KNOW, I NEVER PAID ATTENTION TO A LOT OF POPES BEFORE POPE FRANCIS.

AND I MUST SAY I TRULY RESPECT HIM.

I LOVE WHAT HE SAYS.

HE IS A TRUE RELIGIOUS LEADER AND THE MARK OF A TRUE RELIGIOUS LEADER IS NOT WHETHER YOU ARE LOVED SOLELY BY PEOPLE OF YOUR FAITH BUT HE IS LOVED BY PEOPLE OF VERY DIFFERENT FAITHS.

I'VE TALKED TO MANY PEOPLE AND THEY LIKE POPE FRANCIS.

I LOVE WHEN HE WENT TO BOLIVIA AND SAID UNFETTERED CAPITALISM IS THE TONGUE OF THE DEVIL.

HE TOLD POLITICIANS THAT YOU KNOW, POLITICS ABOUT DAILY MARTYR DOM SEEKING THE COMMON GOOD WITHOUT LETTING YOURSELF BECOME CORRUPTED.

BECAUSE OF GEADZ POLICY HE WROTE TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION SAYING WHAT IS BUILT ON THE BASIS OF FORCE IN AN EXTRAORDINARY LETTER TO AMERICAN BIOPSY, HE SAID WHAT IS BUILT ON THE BASIS OF FORTH AND NOT ON TRUTH ABOUT EQUAL DIGNITY OF EVERY HUMAN BEINGS BEGINS BADLY AND ENDS BADLY.

THESE ARE WONDERFUL THINGS TO SAY.

I THINK THIS IS THE FIRST POPE WHO ACTUALLY IS WASHING THE FEET OF THE POOR.

I ADMIRE HIM.

I HAVE NOTHING NEGATIVE TO SAY AGAINST HIM AT ALL.

>> CERTAINLY AS A TACT, CLERICALISM THAT I THINK YOU ARE REFERRING TO THERE.

HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE HIS APPROACH.

>> I THINK HE WAS THE RIGHT POPE AT THE RIGHT TIME.

YOU REFERENCED EARLIER THIS, YOU KNOW, CONSERVATIVE LIBERAL DIVIDE ON GAY ISSUES.

I THINK FOR THAT PARTICULAR ISSUE, IT'S INSTRUCTIVE TO READ THE CAT SIMPLE THAT DETAILS THE CHURCH'S THEOLOGY THAT STATES BOTH THAT PEOPLE WITH HOMOSEXUAL DESIRES MUST BE RESPECTED WITH COMPASSION, SENSITIVITY AND RESPECT AND EVERY SIGN OF UNJUST DISCRIMINATION SHOULD BE AVOIDED AND IT ALSO STATES THAT HOMOSEXUAL ACTS ARE SINFUL BECAUSE THEY CLOSE THE SEXUAL ACT TO THE GIFT OF LIFE AND UNDER NO CIRCUMSTANCE CAN THEY BE APPROVED SO IN THAT CASE THE PEOPLE WHO SAY HE IS TOO LIBERAL MISS THE FIRST POINT AND PEOPLE WHO SAY HE IS TOO CONSERVATIVE MISS THE SECOND POINT AND REALLY WE ARE TALKING ABOUT THEOLOGY WHICH IS COMPLICATED.

IT DOESN'T CHANGE RAPIDLY.

IT CHANGES SLOWLY IF AT ALL.

>> I DID SAY WHO AM I TO JUDGE BUT HE HASN'T CHANGED DOCTRINE.

>> NO, THAT'S KIND OF THE POINT.

THAT, YOU KNOW, THAT'S ONE OF THE CRITICISMS.

>> I WOULD SAY HE CHANGED THE FOLK-- THE FOCUS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AWAY FROM QUESTIONS OF ABORTION AND GAY RIGHTS AND EXPRESSED TOLERANCE TOWARDS ALL THOSE THINGS BUT DIDN'T NECESSARILY SET OUT TO RADICALLY CHANGE THOSE.

IT'S A CONSERVATIVE INSTITUTION.

THEY DON'T, YOU KNOW,ENDORSE OR GO FOR RADICAL CHANGE BUT WHAT HE DID WAS SHIFT THE ATTENTION TO A DIFFERENT SET OF ISSUES AND ONE OF THOSE WAS THE ENVIRONMENT AND SO I MANIES, LIKE ANIRBAN, REALLY RESPECT THIS POPE.

I'M NOT CATHOLIC.

BUT I WAS JUST VERY HEARTENED WHEN HE CAME OUT VERY STRONGLY IN 2015.

HE WROTE AN ENCYCLICAL ON CLIMATE CHANGE AND THE ENVIRONMENT.

TOOK THE NAME OF POPE FRANCIS WHO WAS THE PATRON SAINT OF ANIMALS.

AND HE WROTE A FOLLOWUP ONE AND SAID THE WORLD IS NOT ACTING FAST ENOUGH AND HE PUT THE ONUS SQUARELY ON FOSSIL FUEL COMPANIES, ON AGREED, ON POWER, ON CORRUPTION, JUST WHERE IT SHOULD BE.

AND I REALLY RESPECT HIM A GREAT DEAL.

>> SOME OF THESE APPROACHES ON VARIOUS SOCIAL ISSUES ARE ONE OF THE REASONS THAT HE HAS BECOME CONTROVERSIAL IN MUCH OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

>> I THINK HE REFLECTS SOME OF WHERE HE CAME FROM, RIGHT?

THE FACT THAT HE WAS A JESUIT, COMING FROM THE GLOBAL SOUTH.

HE IS REFLICTING THE CULTURE AND THE CHALLENGES THAT THE PEOPLE HE MOST CLOSELY KNOWS AND IS PART OF ARE EXPERIENCING.

FOR ME IT RAISES THE QUESTION OF WHO IS NEXT AND WHAT SORT OF LEADER SOME WILL WE SEE COME OUT OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH NEXT.

WE SAW POPE FRANCIS WAS VERY CLEAR IN HIS ARTICULATIONS IN CONDEMNATION REALLY OF DONALD TRUMP'S ATTACKS AGAINST IMMIGRANTS AND WILL WE SEE THEN A PAPACY THAT MORE ALIGNED WITH THE TRUMP DOCTRINE OR DO WE SEE SOMEONE WHO CONTINUES IN POPE FRANCIS' VISION.

>> I DON'T THINK THAT WE WILL.

TO YOUR POINT, SARAH, I THINK WHAT HE WAS DOING AND RIGHT IN DOING WAS SHIFTING THE EMPHASIS ON THE THEOLOGICAL VALUE OF-- VIRTUE OF LOVE AND CHARITY.

I DON'T THINK THAT'S GOING AWAY.

EVERY POPE IS GOING TO BE SUPPORTIVE OF IMMIGRANTS AND THAT SORT OF THING.

ON THE SORT OF ECONOMIC ISSUES, I OFTEN JOKE THAT FRANCIS UNDERSTANDS ECONOMICS AS AN AVERAGE TEEN NOT AS AN ECONOMIST, WHICH IS TO SAY NOT WELL.

AND I THINK ONE ISSUE RELATED TO THAT IS ACTUALLY THE VATICAN FINANCES REMAINS A CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE THAT IS A LITTLE BIT UNDER THE RADAR FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE BUT REASONABLE CALLS FOR TRANSPARENCY ON THAT.

THAT'S SOMETHING THE NEXT POPE WOULD BE RIGHT TO TRY TO CLEAN UP.

>> I REACHED OUT TO A RELATIVE OF MINE AND ASKED HIM WHAT HE THOUGHT ABOUT THE POPE.

AND HE HAD AN INTERESTING LINE.

HE SAID HE TENDS TO GET HIMSELF IN TROUBLE BECAUSE HE OPERATES WITH HIS HEART MORE THAN ANYTHING.

BUT IN DEFENSE OF THAT, SO DID JESUS.

SO WITH THAT, LET'S GO TO OUR As AND OUR FS AND SARAH, WE'LL BEGIN WITH YOUR F. >> OKAY, SO MY F THIS WEEK GOES TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION'S ANNOUNCEMENT THAT IT WOULD REPEAL DOZENS OF REGULATIONS THAT KEEP OUR AIR AND WATER CLEAN.

THE >> NEAR THE TOP OF MY CONCERN IS INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS.

70 COUNTRIES NOW ENDORSE CHINA'S SOVEREIGNTY OVER TAIWAN AND CHINA'S ENTITLEMENT TO PURSUE ALL EFFORTS TO ACHIEVE UNGS UNIFICATION INCLUDING NON-PEACEFUL ONES.

THAT'S A TRENDS THAT STARTED BEFORE TRUMP 2.0 BUT MORE EVIDENCE THAT CHINA'S INITIATIVE HAS BEEN EFFECTIVE THAN THE POLICIES THAT THE POLL THAT THE U.S. HAS BEEN PURSUING.

>> AND MY F TO JEFF BEZOS CENSORSHIP AGAINST THE WASHINGTON POST INDEPENDENCE WHERE HE DECIDES WHAT KINDS OF PIECES OF SO CALLED FREE MARKETS WILL BE PUBLISHED, THUS PROVING ACADEMICS AND CRITICS TRUE WHEN BILLIONAIRES BY PRINT MEDIA, THEY'RE BUYING TECHNOLOGIES OF SELF SERVING PROPAGANDA.

>> AND JENNY.

>> SO MY F GOES TO TEXAS REPRESENTATIVE KEITH SELF FOR INTENTIONALLY MISGENDERRING SARAH McBRIDE.

HE IS THE FIRST TRANSGENDER RIPT TO CONGRESS AND A SELECT FEW CONGRESS MACHINE HAVE DENIGRATED HER FOR BEING WHO SHE IS.

MASSACHUSETTS REPRESENTATIVE CALLED HIM OUT FOR HIS UTTER LACK OF DECENCY FOR A FELLOW MEMBER OF CONGRESS.

>> SOME EVENINGS I NEED A BREAK FROM THE DUMPSTER FIRE THAT IS AMERICAN POLITICS RIGHT NOW AND LATELY I HAVE BEEN TURNING INTO THE MO, THE SEMIAUTOBIOGRAPHIC AL SERIES.

THE SERIES IS ABOUT MO AND HIS FAMILY, REFUGEES FROM PALESTINE WHO LIVE IN TEXAS AND WHOSE LIVES HAVE BEEN SHAPED BY THEIR ONGOING STRUGGLES TO GAIN CITIZENSHIP AND WORK LEGALLY IN THE UNITED STATES.

IN SOME WAYS IT'S ALL ABOUT POLITICS BUT IT SKILLFULLY INFUSES POLITICS WITH HUMOR AND A GREAT DEAL OF TENDERNESS.

I HIGHLY RECOMMEND IT.

>> CHAD.

>> MY A GOES TO NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL LETITIA JAMES WHO WON HER CASE AGAINST INTERMOUNTAIN MANAGEMENT WHEN THE JUDGE RULED THE SKI RESORT ILLEGALLY STIFLED COMPETITION AND CREATED A MONOPOLY IN SYRACUSE AFTER IT PURCHASED AND SHUT DOWN THE MOUNTAIN CAUSING SKIERS TO SUFFER HIGHER PRICES AND MORE CROWDED SLOPES.

FURTHER PROCEEDINGS WILL DETERMINE WHAT THE PENALTY IS.

>> FREE TOG, EXACTLY.

>> MY A GOES TO THE RECENT END BY DoorDash DELIVERY DRIVERS AGAINST TIP THEFT.

BEFORE 2019, DOOR DoorDash WAS CLAIMING ALL TIPS BELONGED TO WORKERS BUT WERE ACTUALLY TAKING THE TIPS TO PAY THEIR WAGES.

RECENTLY THE NEW YORK ATTORNEY GENERAL'S OFFICE ANNOUNCED THAT THEY HAVE REACHED A 16.8 MILLION RESTITUTION TO DASHERS WHICH WILL LEAD TO THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS INCREASE IN PAY AND ABOUT SOME PEOPLE WHO WILL EVEN GET $14,000 EXTRA.

>> AND JEN I.

>> MY A GOES TO MAYOR BEN WALSH AND HIS OFFICE FOR FILING A COMPLAINT WITH THE STATE SUPREME COURT TO STOP AN OUT OF TOWN SLUM LORD FOR OWNING PROPERTY AND RENTING HOMES FULL OF LEAD PAINT AND OTHER HAZARDS TO PEOPLE WHO JUST WANT SAFE AND AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

THE LANDLORD WAS FOUND GUILTY AND FAILED TO CLEAN AND FIX HIS PROPERTIES OR PAY OVER $350,000 IN FINES AND BACK TAXES.

SO THREE YEARS TO THE CITY OF SYRACUSE FOR TRYING TO PROTECT ITS RESIDENTS AND UPLIFT OUR NEIGHBORHOODS.

>> OKAY.

JUST A QUICK NOTE.

ANIRBAN, JEFF BEZOS WITH THE WASHINGTON POST, HE BOUGHT THAT AND EVEN MARTY BARRON SAID IT WAS-- HE DIDN'T INTERFERE AT ALL UNTIL HE DID.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US THIS EVENING.

FOR COMMENTS YOU CAN WRITE TO THE ADDRESS ON YOUR SCREEN.

IF YOU WANT TO WATCH THE SHOW AGAIN YOU CAN DO SO ONLINE AT WCNY.ORG.

I'M DAVID CHANATRY, FOR ALL OF US AT IVORY TOWER, HAVE A GOOD NIGHT.