>> POPE: WELCOME TO "BASIC BLACK."

SOME OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR BROADCAST, AND OTHERS OF YOU ARE JOINING US ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS.

I'M KRISTEN L. POPE, YOUR HOST.

CALLIE CROSSLEY HAS THE NIGHT OFF.

TONIGHT: "NATURAL HAIR GLORY."

OVER THE SUMMER, GOVERNOR BAKER PASSED THE "CREATING A RESPECTFUL AND OPEN WORLD FOR NATURAL HAIR," OR "CROWN," ACT, INTO LAW, TO PROTECT AGAINST HAIR DISCRIMINATION AND BIAS BASED ON HAIR TEXTURE THAT IS HISTORICALLY ASSOCIATED WITH SOMEONE'S RACE.

A TOTAL OF 18 STATES HAVE PASSED THE CROWN ACT, AND THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS STILL CONSIDERING THE BILL.

BUT MANY PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE NO LONGER WAITING TO EMBRACE THE NATURAL BEAUTY OF THEIR HAIR.

THEY ARE DOING IT NOW.

WE HAVE A GREAT GROUP OF GUESTS TO TALK ABOUT NATURAL HAIR.

JOINING US THIS EVENING: SHARITA PAYTON, OWNER OF THE LOFT HAIR STUDIO.

CELESTE VICIERE, THERAPIST, MENTAL HEALTH ADVOCATE BEST-SELLING AUTHOR, AND PODCASTER, ALSO KNOWN AS "CELESTE THE THERAPIST."

NIKE OKEDIJI, OWNER OF THE CURATED CURL, AND CREATOR OF SOULFULLY TEXTURED NATURAL HAIR EVENTS.

SHE IS ALSO DEPUTY GENERAL COUNSEL AT GBH.

AND, DR. DEBORAH SCOTT, CO-DIRECTOR OF THE HAIR LOSS CLINIC AT BRIGHAM AND WOMEN'S HOSPITAL.

WELCOME TO YOU ALL.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US!

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US.

>> YES.

>> Pope: SO WE'RE GOING TO START OFF WITH A QUICK PROMPT.

IN ONE SENTENCE, WHAT DOES THE CROWN ACT MEAN TO YOU?

SHARITA, I'D LIKE TO BEGIN WITH YOU.

>> SO THE CROWN ACT MEANS SO MUCH TO ME IN MANY DIFFERENT WAYS BECAUSE I HAVE BEEN NATURAL MY WHOLE LIFE.

I HAVE YOUNG DAUGHTERS WHO ARE ALSO NATURAL, AND I HAVE TWO NATURAL HAIR SALONS.

SO I GET TO COME IN CONTACT EVERY SINGLE DAY WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE LOOKING TO WEAR THEIR NATURAL HAIR WITHOUT PENALTY.

>> I THINK PROTECTION AND BELONGING.

SO AN OPPORTUNITY FOR PEOPLE TO NOW COME INTO A WORKPLACE OR SCHOOLS AND NOT HAVE TO FOCUS ON THEIR HAIR AND JUST BEING EVALUATED FOR THEIR COMPETENCIES.

>> I LOVE SHE SAID BELONGING.

>> YES.

>> I WOULD SAY AUTHENTICITY AND FREEDOM.

>> MM-HMM.

>> DR. DEBBY.

>> I WOULD SAY REMOVING PRESSURE PEOPLE HAVE, WOMEN PARTICULARLY HAVE, TO CONFORM TO A EURO CENTRIC STANDARD OF BEAUTY SO THEY CAN EMBRACE THEIR NATURAL SELVES.

>> Pope: SO THAT'S ONE OF THE BIG THINGS ABOUT THE CROWN ACT IS COMBATING DISCRIMINATION.

WHAT HAVE YOU -- YOU'VE CREATED SOMETHING SO WONDERFUL, TELL US ABOUT WHAT YOU CREATED AND HOW YOU FEEL THAT SUPPORTS OUR IDENTITY AS IT RELATES TO HAIR.

>> WELL, SO, I CREATED SOCIALLY TEXTURED EVENTS SO WE CAN COME TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE WHO WE ARE AND CELEBRATE OUR NATURAL HAIR AND TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE ISSUES WE FACE WITH BIASES AGAINST NATURAL HAIR IN THE WORKPLACE AND SCHOOLS AND WAYS TO NAVIGATE THAT.

SO IT'S JUST BEEN REALLY -- IT'S FELT LIKE A SPACE FOR US ALL TO COME TOGETHER TO CELEBRATE EACH OTHER AND TO LIFT EACH OTHER UP.

YOU KNOW, YOU FEEL THE ENERGY WHEN YOU COME TO THE EVENTS AS WELL.

WE'RE THERE TO SUPPORT EVERYBODY, JUST HAS A GREAT SPIRIT, AND IT'S JUST A FUN DAY.

>> WE NEED THAT, RIGHT?

IN ORDER TO COMBAT THAT, WE NEED SAFE PLACES TO CELEBRATE OUR IDENTITY.

AND ONE OF THE SAFE PLACES IS THESH.

THAT IS A SAFE PLACE TO COME AND TALK ABOUT MAYBE SOME OF THE ISSUES THAT WE ARE TRYING TO COMBAT AROUND OUR NATURAL HAIR AND HOW IT PLAYS INTO OUR IDENTITY.

SO TALK ABOUT THE MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES THAT THIS PLAYS INTO.

>> AND, YOU KNOW, WITH WHAT YOU CREATED, I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT BECAUSE COMMUNITY IS IMPORTANT.

WHEN PEOPLE KNOW THEY ARE NOT ALONE, WHEN THEY SEE PEOPLE THAT LOOK LIKE THEM, IT FEELS REALLY GOOD.

EVEN THOUGH THE CROWN ACT IS RECENTLY PASSED, I THINK PEOPLE HAVE BEGUN TO EMBRACE THEIR NATURAL HAIR BECAUSE I'VE SEEN MORE PEOPLE ON TV THAT ARE WEARING THEIR HAIR IN A WAY THAT FEELS RIGHT FOR THEM AND NOT A WAY OF CONFORM AT THIS.

AND, SO, WHEN PEOPLE CAN SEE AND EMBRACE THEMSELVES, I FEEL LIKE IT HELPS WITH YOUR CONFIDENCE, YOUR SELF-ESTEEM, BECAUSE IT'S WHO YOU ARE.

>> IT'S WHO YOU ARE.

SPEAKING TO THE AUTHENTIC PIECE AND THE BELONGING PIECE.

SHARITA, YOU HAVE TWO HAIR SALONS, HOW HAS WHAT WE FELT LIKE WE NEEDED TO DO CONFORM TO THE EURO-CENTRIC WAY OF WEARING OUR HAIR?

HOW HAVE YOU SEEN THAT DAMAGE.

>> SO, IN MANY WAYS, SELF-ESTEEM ALSO IN THE HEALTH OF THE HAIR.

I BELIEVE THAT OUR HAIR AT ITS NATURAL IS THE BEST.

IT'S STRONGER, IT'S HEALTHIER.

THE MORE WE DO TO TRY TO CONFORM, THE MORE WE'RE DOING TO OUR HAIR AS FAR AS PRESSING THE HAIR, RELAXING THE HAIR, ANYTHING THAT'S TAKING THE HAIR OUT OF ITS NATURAL STATE, WE ARE TRYING TO CONFORM, AND IT'S BEEN NOT HEALTHY AT ALL FOR THE HAIR.

SO MY GOAL IS TO HELP WOMEN EMBRACE THEIR NATURAL HAIR BUT, AT THE SAME TIME, EDUCATE THEM ON HOW TO DO THAT.

BECAUSE WE CAN SEE EMBRACE YOUR HAIR, ROCK YOUR NATURAL HAIR, BUT LACK OF KNOWLEDGE IS HUGE WHEN IT COMES TO NATURAL HAIR.

SO INFORMING THEM AND EDUCATING THEM IS A BIG PIECE OF THAT.

>> THE EDUCATION PIECE IS SO BIG.

DR. DEBBY, THAT'S A BIG PART OF WHAT YOU DO, WHEN YOU SEE WOMEN COMING IN WITH HAIR LOSS ISSUES, HOW DO YOU -- WELL, ONE, WHAT DO YOU SEE AND THEN HOW DUE APPROACH IT AND HOW DO YOU EDUCATE?

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, HAIR LOSS IS NOT JUST ONE BUCKET.

I MEAN, THERE ARE MANY DIFFERENT THINGS THAT CAUSE HAIR LOSS.

SO, IN MY WORLD, IT'S IMPORTANT TO FIRST DETERMINE WHAT'S CAUSING THE HAIR LOSS SO I CAN THEN HELP MY PATIENTS COMBAT THAT AND GET BACK TO HAVING HEALTHY HAIR.

AND THERE'S A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT THINGS, AND SOME OF IT IS STYLING, SOME OF IT IS JUST A PRIMARY INFLAMMATORY CONDITION OF THE SCALP -- AND I WON'T GO INTO IT IN TOO MUCH DETAIL, I DON'T KNOW THAT WE HAVE TIME -- BUT THERE ARE CERTAIN THINGS THAT ARE MORE COMMON IN BLACK WOMEN, SOMETHING CALLED CCCA, WHICH IS AN INFLAMMATORY CONDITION OF THE SCALP THAT'S OFTEN MISDIAGNOSED ACTUALLY AS A FEMALE PATTERN HAIR LOSS OR JUST -- PEOPLE JUST SAY, OH, YOUR HAIR IS THINNING BUT IT'S AN ACTUAL DISORDER OF THE SCALP THAT CAN LEAD TO PERMANENT HAIR LOSS.

>> Pope: I'VE NEVER HEARD OF WHAT YOU SAID.

I DON'T THINK I'M ALONE IN THAT.

WHAT WE USUALLY HEAR IS THE PATTERN MALE BALDING OR SOME OTHER MAINSTREAM, BUT I'VE NEVER HEARD OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID.

>> IT'S ACTUALLY ALMOST BECOMING, I DON'T WANT TO SAY AN EPIDEMIC, BUT IT'S BECOMING MUCH MORE COMMON AND JUST AMONG -- IN WOMEN WHO HAVE -- WOMEN OF THE AFRICAN DIASPIRATE, WOMEN OF CURLY, KINKY HAIR, AND IT'S A HAIR LOSS THAT BEGINS ON THE CROWN AND SPREADS OUTWARD AND IF UNTREATED CAN LEAD TO PERMANENT, SCARRING HAIR LOSS AND ONCE THAT HAPPENS YOU REALLY JUST CAN'T GET THE HAIR BACK.

AND, AGAIN, I CAN TALK FOR A LONG TIME ABOUT THIS, AND I WON'T, BUT, IN MY WORLD, IT'S IMPORTANT, WHEN I MEET SOMEONE, THAT I TRY TO DETERMINE WHAT'S CAUSING THEIR HAIR LOSS.

AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK, TRADITIONALLY, OFTENTIMES, PEOPLE WERE TOLD, OH, IT'S BECAUSE YOU'RE RELAXING YOUR AIR OR BECAUSE OF THIS, BUT IT'S OFTEN MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

SO INSTEAD OF BLAMING THE PATIENT, I TRY TO WORK WITH THEM TO TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S GOING ON SO WE CAN STOP THE HAIR LOSS AND GET THEIR HAIR BACK.

>> Pope: WHAT ARE THOSE UNDERLYING ISSUES THAT JUST IN THE MAINSTREAM WE WOULD WRITE OFF OR DON'T KNOW.

WE LEARNED SOMETHING NEW TALKING TO YOU NOW ABOUT MAYBE WHAT A NEW DIAGNOSIS IS FROM A MISDIAGNOSIS.

>> WELL, UM, COMMON CAUSES OF HAIR LOSS ARE AARON DEFICIENCY, VITAMIN D DEFICIENCY, AND THAT THE ACTUALLY PRETTY COMMON.

THEN, ALSO, RIGHT NOW, COVID IS WREAKING HAVOC WITH PEOPLE'S HAIR.

AND EVEN PEOPLE WHO DON'T HAVE SEVERE COVID WILL SUFFER -- MAY -- MAY SUFFER REALLY EXTENSIVE HAIR LOSS AND NOT UNDERSTAND THE CONNECTION.

YOU KNOW, SO THEY COME IN AND THEIR HAIR IS COMING OUT, AND THEY DON'T -- YOU KNOW, I JUST SIT AND SORT OF TRACK BACK THREE TO FOUR MONTHS AND FIND OUT WHAT WENT ON TO SEE WHAT TRIGGERED THIS HAIR LOSS.

>> I HAD NOT HEARD COVID HAD ANYTHING DO WITH HAIR LOSS.

HAD ANY OF YOU.

>> I'VE SEEN THAT A LOT IN THE SALON.

AND I DO ASK THAT QUESTION, IF CLIENTS COME IN AND THEY HAVE SUDDEN HAIR LOSS AND IT WASN'T SOMETHING THEY WERE DEALING WITH BEFORE,LY SAY, HAVE YOU HAD COVID?

HOW LONG HAS IT BEEN?

AND THE MAJORITY OF THE TIME, THE ANSWER IS YES.

>> SO THERE ARE SO MANY ISSUES.

YOU KNOW, THIS GOES BACK TO OUR IDENTITY.

OUR HAIR HAS SO MUCH TO DO WITH OUR IDENTITY.

SO WHEN YOU HEAR SOMETHING LIKE THIS, CELESTE, THAT THERE ARE ALL THESE ISSUES, WHAT ARE DO YOU THEN GET IN YOUR OFFICE ABOUT, YOU KNOW, FROM A PERSON WHO'S DEALING WITH HAIR LOSS OR HAIR DISCRIMINATION, HOW DO YOU, UM, WALK THROUGH THOSE ISSUES WITH THIS PERSON?

>> I THINK, YOU KNOW, THE HAIR LOSS STUFF, I THINK ABOUT STRESS AND THE VISIBLE LABOR ESPECIALLY WOMEN OF COLOR ARE DOING ON A REGULAR BASIS AND HOW STRESS CAN SHOW UP IN DIFFERENT WAYS AND HAIR LOSS CAN BE ONE OF THEM.

WHEN IT COMES TO THEIR IDENTITY WITH THEIR HAIR, I THINK -- YOU KNOW, I HEAR PEOPLE SAY, YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT TO STRAIGHTEN MY AIR, I'VE GOT AN INTERVIEW OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

SO THERE'S NO SUMMIT ON MY END.

SOME PEOPLE MAY JUST WANT TO WEAR THEIR HAIR STRAIGHT AND THAT'S FINE OR MAY WANT THE TO DO SOMETHING THAT MAY NOT BE AS NATURAL.

BUT IF PEOPLE ARE LOOKING TO DO THE NATURAL THING AND WORK ON IT THAT WAY, I WOULD WORK WITH THEM OBSERVE MAKING SURE IT'S WHAT THEY WANT TO DO AND BEING OKAY WITH THE OUTSIDE NOISE BECAUSE IT'S WHAT MATTERS WITH THEM, THAT'S HOW WE CAN FINALLY HAVE PEACE IN LIFE.

>> Pope: THE OUTSIDE NOISE.

SO MUCH OF THAT.

WHAT WE WANT TO DO TO PIGGY BACK OFF WHAT YOU ARE SAYING CELESTE IS GO TO A NEW CLIP IN A DOCUMENTARY.

IN THIS NEW CLIP FROM THE LIMITED DOCUMENTARY SERIES OF HUH ARE YOU, "THE HAIR TALES," PRODUCED BY OPRAH WINFREY, TRACEY ELLIS ROSS, AND MICHAELA ANGELA DAVIS, WOMEN SHARE THEIR HAIR JOURNEYS, INCLUDING MASSACHUSETTS CONGRESSWOMAN AYANNA PRESSLEY.

TAKE A LOOK.

>> WHEN I WAS 13, MY MOTHER THREW ME A SURPRISE POOL PARTY.

I WAS PARALYZED BECAUSE MY HAIR WOULD GET WET, AND THEY WILL KNOW THE TRUTH ABOUT ME, THAT I'M BLACK.

(MUSIC) AND MY MOTHER, SHE SAID, "BABY, THEY KNOW."

>> Pope: I'M TELLING YOU YOU IT ALMOST BRINGS YOU TO TEARS, RIGHT?

IT ALMOST BRINGS YOU TO TEARS WHEN YOU HEAR HER SAY THAT BECAUSE SHE WAS CLEARLY SO YOUNG.

I HAVE TO GIVE A SHOUT OUT TO OUR CONGRESSWOMAN AYANNA PRESSLEY BECAUSE SHE'S BEEN SO BOLD AND TRANSPARENT WITH HER OWN HAIR JOURNEY.

YOU KNOW, SHE HAS THIS BEAUTIFUL ROUND HEAD BUT HOW MUCH COURAGE PROBABLY DID IT HAVE TO TAKE TO STEP INTO THAT WHEN, FOR MOST OF HER LIFE, SHE'S BEEN WEARING HER BEAUTIFUL BRAIDS OR HAIR AND SHARING THAT WITH US.

I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO TALK ABOUT OUR HAIR JOURNEY.

DR. DEBBY, LET'S START WITH YOU.

WHAT'S YOUR HAIR JOURNEY BEEN?

>> WELL, GEE, YOU KNOW, I'M OLD ENOUGH THAT -- YOU KNOW, I'M A CHILD OF THE '70s, I GUESS.

I WAS, YOU KNOW, A YOUNG WOMAN IN THE '70s, SO WE ALL WORE OUR HAIR NATURAL, AND I WORE MY HAIR NATURAL FOR MANY YEARS AND THEN I STRAIGHTENED IT, AND I PROBABLY HAD A RELAXER FOR 30 YEARS.

THEN FINALLY I SAID, YOU KNOW, I HAVE NO IDEA WHAT MY HAIR LOOKS LIKE, WHAT MY OWN NATURAL, UNRELAXED HAIR LOOKS LIKE UNDER WHAT IT IS.

SO I JUST DECIDED I WAS GOING TO TRY TO GROW IT OUT AND SEE WHAT IT LOOKED LIKE.

AND, SO, THAT'S BEEN MY HAIR JOURNEY.

>> Pope: I LOVE THAT BECAUSE YOURS CAME OUT OF CURESIOS AT THIS.

>> WELL, CURIOSITY AND ALSO BECAUSE I WANTED TO EMBRACE MY NATURAL HAIR.

IT WAS MORE THAN CURIOSITY.

I SAID I'M TIRED OF RELAXING MY HAIR.

I WANT TO SEE WHAT MY OWN HAIR LOOKS LIKE.

>> Pope: I LOVE THAT.

CELESTE, HOW ABOUT YOU?

>> YEAH, I GOT MY FIRST PERM AT EIGHT YEARS OLD.

I THINK MY MOM WAS DEFINITELY SOMEONE WHO WANTED TO MAKE SURE I CONFORMED WITH SOCIETY IN A CERTAIN WAY AND EVEN AS AN ADULT, I KEPT THE PERM.

I WENT TO THE HAIR SALON EVERY TWO WEEKS, MY HAIR WAS BURNING.

BUT I WENT NATURAL, AND THEN ONE DAY, I SAW THE DIRECTOR OF "SELMA" ON TV AND I WAS, LIKE, I'M GOING TO GET LOCKS.

>> AVA DuVernay.

>> YEAH, BECAUSE IT WAS EASY TO MAINTAIN WHERE I COULD GET UP AND GO.

IT FIT MY LIFESTYLE SO FOR ME IT WAS ABOUT A LIFESTYLE SHANK.

>> CHANGE.

>> Pope: SHARITA.

>> I HAVE BEEN NATURAL MY WHOLE LIFE.

PEOPLE CALLED US THE PUFF FAMILY.

MY HAIR WAS NATURAL AND IT WOULD GET PUFFY, FRIZZY, AND THEY MADE FUN OF US.

I DID NOT LOVE MY HAIR.

IT WAS SOMETHING I STRUGGLED WITH AS A CHILD, ESPECIALLY IN ELEMENTARY SCHOOL.

I STARTED ADDING EXTENSIONS TO MY HAIR WHEN I WAS IN THE THIRD GRADE, ACTUALLY.

>> Reporter: WHO KNOWS HOW TO DO THAT IN THE THIRD GRADE?

THERE WASN'T YouTube OR ANYTHING.

>> THAT'S THE HAIR STYLIST IN ME.

I STARRED AT A VERY YOUNG AGE AND I STARTED WITH MYSELF FIRST, AND THEN I WOULD BRANCH OUT TO DOING MY SISTER'S HAIR, HER FRIENDS, AND FAMILY MEMBERS AND ACQUAINTANCES, AND, SO, YEAH, I JUST DID NOT LIKE THE WAY MY HAIR LOOKED.

SO I COVERED IT UP FOR A LONG TIME.

MOST OF MY LIFE, UNTIL I HAD MY DAUGHTER, SIERRA, SHE'S NOW 17.

BUT -- SO I WANTED TO REALLY SHOW UP FOR HER BECAUSE WE LIVED IN A NEIGHBORHOOD WHERE MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T LOOK LIKE HER, AND I KNOW THAT SHE WOULD WALK OUT THE DOOR AND SHE WOULDN'T BE ABLE TO FIND HERSELF LOOKING AT OTHERS.

WHEN I SAY FIND HERSELF, HER HAIR, IT'S A BIG PART OF WHO SHE IS.

SO I'M, LIKE, OKAY, SHARITA, YOU HAVE TO DO THIS.

I DID SO MUCH RESEARCH.

I STARTED OUT BRAIDING.

I DID THE EXTENSIONS.

NOT JUST ON ME, BUT I DID RELAXERS, I DID WEAVES, I DID ALL OF THAT.

BUT WHEN IT CAME TO THE HAIR CARE ASPECT, I DIDN'T HAVE A LOT OF MY KNOWLEDGE ABOUT IT.

I BEGAN TO DO A LOT OF RESEARCH.

I'M, LIKE, OKAY, IF I'M GOING TO DO THIS FOR HER, I KNOW WHAT I'M DOING, HOW TO TAKE CARE OF MY HAIR SO IT LOOKS GOOD.

THAT'S WHAT I DID.

I DID RESEARCH.

I TOOK TIME OFF FROM WITHIN THE SALON, WENT TO THE LIBRARIES, READ A LOT OF BOOKS AND I BEGAN TO REALLY LOVE ON MY HAIR TO THE POINTED TO WHERE I DID A NATURAL HAIRCARE WORKSHOP WHERE THERE WAS OVER 100 WOMEN IN ATTENDANCE AT THIS WORKSHOP AND AFTER THE WORKSHOP, AN HOUR AFTER, PEOPLE WERE STILL LINED UP ASKING ME QUESTIONS.

>> AND I CAN SEE WHY.

YOUR HAIR IS STUNNING!

WE CAN UNDERSTAND WHY YOU MIGHT NOT HAVE ALWAYS FELT THAT WAY.

PEOPLE FROM THE OUTSIDE LOOKING IN HAVE A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE.

WHAT'S BEEN YOUR HAIR JOURNEY.

>> WHEN WE FIRST GOT OUR PERMS, MY SISTER AND I USED TO SWIM COMPETITIVELY, SO I THINK IT WAS ABOUT THE TIME WE STARTED SWIMMING THAT OUR HAIR WAS PERMED.

I HAD A BUNCH OF DIFFERENT HAIRSTYLES AS I GREW UP, RIGHT, BUT, UM, I JUST DECIDED TO GO NATURAL WHEN I STARTED LEARNING MORE ABOUT PERMS AND THE HARMFUL CHEMICALS IN THEM AND HOW THEY CAN IMPACT -- THEY HAVE HORMONE DISRUPTORS, CAN CAUSE BREAST CANCER, PHI BROIDZ, THINGS LIKE THAT, AND I DEALT WITH THOSE ISSUES AND I DECIDED NOT TO PERM ANY HAIR ANYMORE.

A LOT OF MY FRIENDS WERE GOING NATURAL AT THE SAME TIME.

IT WAS EASY SO I HAD A LOT OF PEOPLE ON THE JOURNEY WITH ME.

THAT'S MY HAIR STORY.

>> I LOVE THESE STORIES BECAUSE WE SIT HEAR AND SEE EACH OTHER.

THERE'S A STORY BEHIND THAT AND MAYBE SOME OF THE THINGS WE'VE HAD TO FACE ALONG THE WAY WITH OUR HAIR JOURNEY.

DR. DEBBY, I WANT TO PULL YOU INTO WHAT NIKA SAID ABOUT THE PERMS AND RELAXERS AND POTENTIAL SIDE EFFECTS.

YOU SAID SOMETHING I LOVE, YOUR SCALP IS YOUR SKIN.

TAKE US THROUGH THAT, YOUR SCALP IS YOUR SKIN AND HOW SHOULD WE THEN MAINTAIN OUR SCALP?

>> WELL, OUR SCALP IS OUR SKIN, AND, SO, I COUNSEL PEOPLE, PATIENTS THAT, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE TO CLEAN YOUR SCALP THE SAME WAY YOU WOULD CLEAN YOUR SKIN AND I THINK, OFTENTIMES, WE MAY NOT WASH OUR HAIR THAT FREQUENTLY OR WASH OUR SCALPS THAT FREQUENTLY, PARTICULARLY IF WE HAVE CERTAIN HAIRSTYLES, BECAUSE WE DON'T WANT OUR HAIR TO REVERT OR WE HAVE BRAIDS OR WEAVES AND THINGS WHERE WE CANNOT GET TO OUR SCALP.

BUT THAT'S NOT REALLY HEALTHY FOR THE SCALP.

IDEALLY I WOULD LIKE PEOPLE TO WASH THEIR HAIR ONCE A WEEK, AND I KNOW THAT'S NOT REALISTIC BUT AT LEAST EVERYOUT ERWEEK, JUST TO CLEAN THE RES TO YOU OFF YOUR SCALP SO YOUR SCALP CAN BREATHE.

ALSO IN TERMS OF THE RELAXERS AND CHEMICALS, SOME OF THE REALLY HIGHLY-FRAGRANCED PRODUCTS THAT ARE OUT THERE THAT WE USE, THAT EVERYONE USES, PEOPLE CAN DEVELOP ALLERGIC REACTIONS, IRRITANT REACTIONS, WHICH ARE HARMFUL TO OUR SCALP, WHICH CAN THEN IMPACT OUR HAIR.

>> Pope: THAT IS SO HELPFUL TO KNOW BECAUSE HAIR CARE IS EDUCATION, AND, SO, TO UNDERSTAND THE EDUCATION, HOPEFULLY THAT ARMS US WITH DOING THINGS DIFFERENTLY.

I WANT TO TAKE IT BACK TO THE CROWN ACT FOR A SECOND.

AND ABOUT THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS PLACE OF BELONGING AND THE BIAS THAT WE EXPERIENCE, OUR AUTHENTICITY, OUR IDENTITY.

YOU KNOW, IN OUR WORKPLACES, THIS SHOULD BE A PLACE OF PROGRESS, RIGHT, LIKE A PLACE OF PROGRESS TO SAY, LISTEN, YOU CAN NO LONGER DISCRIMINATE AGAINST A GROUP OF PEOPLE BECAUSE THEY CARRY THEIR HAIR A CERTAIN WAY.

WE TALKED ABOUT THIS, OUR HAIR TEXTURE IS JUST DIFFERENT.

HOW IMPORTANT IS THE CROWN ACT TO DISPLAYING THE FACT THAT WE HAVE DIFFERENT TEXTURED HAIR, YOU KNOW, AND WE SHOULD BE TREATED WITH THE SAME RESPECT AS ANYONE ELSE.

SHARITA, CAN YOU SPEAK TO THAT.

>> YEAH, I JUST WANT TO SHARE, I HAVE COME IN CONTACT WITH SO MANY CLIENTS, BUT I HAD CLIENTS THAT ATTENDED THE MYSTIC VALLEY SCHOOL WHERE THE TWO YOUNG GIRLS WERE DISCRIMINATED AGAINST, AND ONE OF MY YOUNG CLIENTS ALSO WAS DISCRIMINATED AGAINST BECAUSE SHE WOULD COME INTO THE SALON.

AT THAT TIME, I WAS DOING EXTENSIONS AND I WOULD CONROE HER HAIR, I WOULD ADD THE EXTENSIONS TO HER HAIR BUT I COULDN'T GO PAST A CERTAIN LENGTH.

MEANWHILE, OTHER PEOPLE, YOU KNOW, OTHER RACES WERE WEARING EXTENSIONS, LONG AND STRAIGHT EXTENSIONS.

AS FAR AS THE BRAIDS, THERE WAS LIMITATIONS ON IT.

SHE ACTUALLY HAD TO TAKE HER BRAIDS OUT TO PLAY AT A BASKETBALL CAME, BRAIDS HER MOTHER PAID FOR TO GET DONE AT THE SALON.

>> Pope: HOW DO WE RECONCILE THAT.

>> IT DOESN'T MAKE SENSE TO ME.

IT JUST DOES NOT MAKE SENSE AND IT'S JUST NOT FAIR.

THIS IS WHO WE ARE.

BRAIDS, LIKE YOU'RE PLAYING BASKETBALL.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO OUR HAIR, YOU KNOW, LIKE, IT TAKES A LOT OF WORK TO DO SOME OF THE STYLES AND TO BE ABLE TO BE ACTIVE.

AND, SO, TO TAKE SOME OF THESE STYLES AWAY FROM THE STUDENTS IS JUST NOT RIGHT.

>> Pope: AND FROM A YOUNG AGE.

>> YES.

>> Pope: RIGHT, THAT CONDITIONING STARTING SO VERY YOUNG.

THERE'S A STORY OF A WOMAN WHO WAS GOING TO MAKE HISTORY IN THE OLYMPICS AS A SWIMMER, AND THIS WHOLE SOUL CAP -- THE SOUL CAP IS THE NEW SWIM CAP THAT IS MADE FOR WOMEN -- MADE FOR PEOPLE WITH NATURAL BIG HAIR, AND THE FIFA SAID THAT'S NOT APPROVED, WE'RE NOT GOING TO LET HER SWIM WITH THAT BECAUSE IT DOESN'T FRAME THE NATURAL HEAD OF THE HAIR, AND, SO, SHE WASN'T ALLOWED TO SWIM AND MAKE HISTORY.

AND, SO, THEY HAD TO GO BACK, SOUL CAP WENT BACK, WORKED WITH THEM TO FIGURE THIS OUT SO THAT SHE COULD WEAR -- WE COULD WEAR OUR AND A HALF HAIR, OUR BRAIDS OR WHATEVER IT IS WE'RE GOING TO WEAR SO THAT WE CAN BE RECOGNIZED IN OUR AUTHENTICITY.

YEAH.

>> Pope: SO DR. DEBBY, WHEN YOU DIAGNOSE PEOPLE, WHERE IS YOUR STARTING POINT?

WHEN YOU SEE PEOPLE WITH HAIR LOSS, WHAT'S YOUR STARTING POINT TO GETTING TO THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE?

>> SO THE FIRST THING I DO IS ASK THE HISTORY.

YOU KNOW, HOW LONG, HOW ABRUPT.

FOR INSTANCE, IF SOMEONE COMES IN AND THEIR HAIR IS COMING OUT BY THE HANDFULS, I STRONGLY SUSPECT SOMETHING, I SUSPECT STRESS, OR SOMETHING HAS HAPPENED IN THE PREVIOUS THREE TO SIX MONTHS TO TRIGGER THIS, TO CHANGE THE HAIR GROWTH PATTERN.

SO I ASK ABOUT HISTORY.

I ASK ABOUT FAMILY HISTORY.

I ASK ABOUT SYMPTOMS, DOES IT ITCH, DOES IT BURN.

I ALWAYS TELL MY PATIENTS WHEN I COME IN, HOWEVER THEIR HAIR IS, HOWEVER THEIR HAIR IS STYLED, AND PARTICULARLY WITH BRAIDS AND I GO, HMM, THOSE BRAIDS ARE KIND OF TIGHT AROUND THE ELLENS, DO THEY HURT?

AND THEY GO, YEAH.

I SAY, LISTEN, IF IT HURTS OR ITCHESSH IT'S BAD.

>> THOSE ARE CLEAR INDICATIONS.

>> I DIGRESSED.

IN TERMS OF HAIRSTYLING, IF YOU DO SOMETHING AND IT HURTS, IT BURNS OR IT ITCHES, STOP DOING IT BECAUSE IT'S NOT YOUR -- YOUR SCALP IS TELLING YOU IT'S NOT HAPPY.

>> THAT'S THE MAJORITY OF THE CHEMICALS.

I THINK ABOUT A PERM, IT BURNS, IT ITCHES.

>> YOUR SKIN IS TELLING YOU STOP, I DON'T LIKE IT.

>> RIGHT.

>> THIS IS HURTING, THIS IS BAD.

>> BUT DIDN'T WE BYPASS THAT?

WE PI BASSED ALL OF THAT.

>> YOU KNOW, YOU WERE JUST USED TO SORT OF TBRITTING YOUR TEETH AND, YOU KNOW, YOUR EARS WOULD GET BURNED WITH THE CURLING -- I MEAN, HOW MANY OF US -- >> PAIN IS BRUTE, -- PAIN IS BEAUTY, RIGHT?

>> Pope: WE KNEAD TO KICK THAT OUT, MY GOODNESS!

>> SO I ASK ABOUT HISTORY, I ASK ABOUT HAIRSTYLING, MEDICAL HISTORY, AND THEN I ACTUALLY LOOK AT THE SCALP WHICH IS REALLY IMPORTANT BECAUSE I CAN USUALLY TELL WHAT'S GOING ON WITH THE HISTORY AND THE SYMPTOMS, AND THEN I LOOK AT THE SCALP, AND I USE A MAGNIFIER, AND I REALLY LOOK AT THE HAIR FOLLICLES, AND IT SORT OF GIVES ME A DIRECTION ABOUT WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> Pope: I WANT TO TAKE WHAT YOU SAID AND TURN IT INTO A DIRECTION OF HOPE BECAUSE YOU HAVE CREATED SOMETHING -- AND WE HAVE TO HAVE HOPE THAT THERE ARE ANSWERS, THAT WE ARE GOING TO GET BETTER, HAT THE CROWN -- THAT THE CROWN ACT IS PROGRESS.

SO COMMUNITY, COMMUNITY IS SOMETHING WE TALKED ABOUT AS A POSITIVE THING.

TALK TO US BRIEFLY ABOUT COMMUNITY AND HOW THIS IS IMPORTANT.

>> WELL, I THINK COMMUNITY IS IMPORTANT BECAUSE WE LIFT ONE ANOTHER UP, RIGHT, AND WHO ELSE IS GOING TO CELEBRATE US?

IF WE CAN'T CELEBRATE OURSELVES, WE SHOULDN'T EXPECT OTHER PEOPLE TO.

SO WE CAN ALSO SPEAK SO MUCH ENERGY INTO ONE ANOTHER AND UPLIFT ONE ANOTHER.

LIFE CAN BE HARD ON SO MANY LEVELS AND FOR SO MANY REASONS, BUT WHEN YOU SURROUND YOURSELF WITH A COMMUNITY OF PEOPLE THAT SUPPORT YOU, LOOK LIKE YOU, REFLECT YOU, ARE ON THE SAME PATH WITH YOU, IT'S JUST HELPFUL.

>> AND>> Pope: CHECK ME ABOUT SPEAKING BETTER TO MY HAIR AND THINKING ABOUT IT LIKE A PLANT.

IF WE ARE SO CRITICAL ON OURSELVES, WHY WOULD IT GROW AND FLOURISH?

WE NEED TO NOURISH AND DO OUR OWN.

NICKI TALK ABOUT THE AFFIRMATIONS.

>> WEMADE TO TALK ABOUT OUR HAIR IN A POSITIVE MANNER AND CHANGE OUR VOCABULARY.

THAT'S ONE OF THE THINGS WE DO AT OUR EVENTS IS WE HAVE A CLINICAL PSYCHOLOGIST TALK US TO ABOUT HOW TO BE MORE POSITIVE ABOUT YOUR HAIR AND CHOOSE THE RIGHT WORDS WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> Pope: WHAT'S ONE AFFIRMATION?

>> BEAUTIFUL.

>> Pope: BEAUTIFUL.

BEAUTIFUL.

YOUR HAIR IS BEAUTIFUL.

OUR HAIR IS BEAUTIFUL.

YOUR HAIR IS YOUR GLORY.

NATURAL HAIR, GLORY.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE HERE TALKING ABOUT.

AND THIS HAS BEEN AN AMAZING CONVERSATION.

THANK YOU, LADIES.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU.

>> Pope: THANK YOU SO MUCH.

THAT'S THE END OF OUR BROADCAST, AND THE END OF OUR SHOW.

THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

AND NOW, STAY WITH US, AS WE CONTINUE OUR CONVERSATION ON OUR DIGITAL PLATFORMS, FACEBOOK AND YOUTUBE.

I'M KRISTIN POPE.

CAPTIONED BY MEDIA ACCESS GROUP AT WGBH ACCESS.WGBH.ORG #