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- This is One-On-One.

- I'm an equal American just like you are.

- The way we change Presidents in this country is by voting.

- A quartet is already a jawn, it’s just The New Jawn.

- January 6th was not some sort of violent, crazy outlier.

- I don't care how good you are or how good you think you are, there is always something to learn.

- I mean what other country sends comedians over to embedded military to make them feel better.

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_ It’s not all about memorizing and getting information, it’s what you do with that information.

- (slowly) Start talking right now.

- That's a good question, high five.

(upbeat music) - Hi everyone, Steve Adubato.

For the entire program, we're talking to the author of this compelling, important, and powerful book.

The author is Jonathan Allen, also with Amie Parnes.

And the book is called "Fight: Inside the Wildest Battle for the White House."

Jon, thank you so much for joining us.

- My pleasure, Steve.

- Where the heck, first of all, Fight!, the title of the book comes from?

- My co-author, Amie Parnes, who insisted that we call the book Fight- There's the iconic moment, of course, when President Trump is nearly assassinated, rises up and throws his fist in the air and yells, "Fight, fight, fight."

But, you know, also Kamala Harris, her mantra was, "When we fight, we win."

And when she lost, she told everybody that the fight continues.

And what we see in our politics is this ongoing fight.

So we thought that was the most appropriate title for this book about this insane election year.

- Insane on a lot of levels.

And I told Jon before we came on the air, I absolutely love this book.

The term page-turner is overused.

This is a page-turner, but also, tell folks, option for?

- Option for Hollywood.

We sold the rights to Aline Brosh McKenna, who is the screenwriter for Devil Wears Prada, Devil Wears Prada 2, and many other titles that you may have heard of.

And we are incredibly excited to see what she can do.

She plans to write and direct a feature film.

- Good for both of you, and those of us who get to see it later.

All right, let's get into this.

We're taping on the 20th of May.

This will be seen later.

Obviously, the cancer diagnosis for former President Biden, our thoughts and prayers are with him, with his family for his recovery.

Let's go back.

How in God's name or in anyone's name who matters, Jon, did we in the media, many of us, did the Democrats who were around President Biden, did President Biden's family who knew best, how the heck was he able to run to the point where the debate happened with Donald Trump and then there was no choice but to do what was done?

How the heck does that happen?

Other than, I'll load the question up with this, other than being a cover-up by those who could have uncovered it and done something about it?

- It's the right question, Steve.

I mean, first of all, let's start with the president himself.

He had sought the presidency for most of his adult life.

He actually ran in 1988 and again in 2008 and then again in 2020.

He was angry that President Obama had put his weight behind Hillary Clinton in 2016, which forced Biden from running.

So, this was the job he had always wanted.

He had that job.

He believed his own headlines about the success that he thought he was having, even though the approval ratings showed that he was not doing well, that he was underwater, even though he was trailing President Trump in polling.

And he wanted to run again.

There was never a discussion in his inner circle, according to the reporting that Amie and I did about whether to run.

It was only about when he would announce and how they would run.

And the people closest to him who were in the best position to see his decline in the first... We all saw it on television.

I mean, we could see examples of it, but people behind the scenes obviously saw it a lot closer.

The people closest to him were the ones dependent upon him you know, first lady Jill Biden, for the nice house and the helicopter and the plane, the aides closest to him, Mike Donilon and Steve Ricchetti.

- His son, Hunter Biden.

- His son, Hunter Biden, absolutely, who becomes his fiercest defender in all of this, you know, who starts reading people out of the room when they are detected to be anything but absolutely loyal to the idea of Biden running again.

So, you know, I mean, I think it starts with that, right?

The reason that Amie and I didn't use the term "cover-up" is that we believe that connotes, at least in American political parlance, a criminal conspiracy.

And what we see here is a lot of people acting- - How about intent?

- Well, that's it.

So, intent, the intent to cover up, absolutely.

The intent to accommodate President Biden, absolutely.

And we see that in every, you know, I know you've read it, but for other folks, so many examples in this book of the things that were done to shield President Biden from the American public, to shield him even from his own donors and other Democrats, to shield his frailties, both physical and mental from them.

And more importantly, to shield the American public from their president.

- But hold, a couple of things.

First of all, Van Jones on CNN, a staunch Democrat, part of the Obama administration, recently on CNN said that what happened with President Biden being allowed to, encouraged to run again was quote, "was and is a crime against the Republic."

That being said, I was listening to the audio tape that was finally released.

I think it was in 2022 when it was made.

The Biden administration, the Democrats around him did not want this tape released.

It was the deposition, and I know you have reported on this and understand it, Jon.

The deposition of President Biden talking about the classified documents case.

In it, this is not secondhand information.

The audio itself, you know.

Number one, he wasn't sure when Donald Trump took office the first time Trump won in November 2016.

He thought it was 2017 where the election was.

Number two, he didn't know the year that his son, Beau, passed away from cancer.

He also wasn't sure of the dates at which he served as vice president.

And it goes on.

People knew that, and they did not want it out.

The question becomes, from my perspective, how did we...

The Democrats are one thing, how did we, the so-called mainstream media, fail miserably to be more assertive, proactive, and aggressive in some cases and asking the right questions about the situation.

Where did we fail/fall short, Jon?

- Well, we did not cover ourselves in glory at any moment.

And I know as a reporter, you know, covering in part the Biden White House, I was actually primarily assigned to the Trump campaign during the campaign.

But, you know, I know we were constantly trying to find the status of President Biden's physical and mental health is something that- - Couldn't you see it?

I don't mean you, Jonathan, but all of us.

Didn't we see it?

Didn't we see when President Biden was having a hard time knowing where he needed to be on the stage, when he was walked off a fundraiser that I believe George Clooney, who he did not recognize, who he had met many times, been around many times, at a fundraiser, I believe in California, where former President Obama walks him off the stage.

I mean, it just goes on and on.

We keep saying, you know, we didn't see...

Didn't we see it?

- We did see it, Steve.

The problem from the media, from the straight media standpoint, from the reporter's standpoint is we're not doctors.

I can't diagnose Joe Biden.

What I can do is report on what we're seeing.

And I think the media broadly failed to do that.

I do think that there was a protective layer around President Biden.

And part of that is respect for the office.

Part of it is the inability to make a diagnosis independently of what's going on with him.

At the same time, I think broadly, we were too willing to not call bullcrap on the difference between what White House officials were telling us, which was clearly not true, that he was, you know, reading, poring through briefing books every night, that he was as alert as he had ever been.

I mean, you know, we could see ourselves that that wasn't the case, and, you know, we should have pushed harder.

The time, you mentioned, and I think this is important, that her report, the investigator, the prosecutor, and that audio that you hear, that was an off-ramp for the people closest to him.

That was a moment for those who heard that, who were with him even during those years, to not have him run in the first place in 2020.

But certainly once those transcripts came out, and they're not as alarming as the audio is, that was an off-ramp, an opportunity for them to raise their hand as we say, you know, "See something, say something."

And they did not do that.

- Let me ask you this.

In the book, it's so interesting, the battle.

And again, we try to focus on public policy, but public policy is impacted by politics and the politicians and government office who create public policy.

So here are some who mattered.

Nancy Pelosi, Barack Obama, help us understand this.

Why the heck, A, Nancy Pelosi and Barack Obama wanted President Biden to drop out at a certain point after the debate, fair?

- Yes, immediately.

- Why did Barack Obama not support Kamala Harris and want, along with Nancy Pelosi, the former Speaker of the House, Why did they both want an open, competitive, Democratic primary to pick the strongest candidate and not anoint Kamala Harris?

- They both believed that Kamala Harris was not the strongest candidate.

They both have little confidence in Kamala Harris.

In fact, Pelosi, according to somebody who spoke to her right after the debate, her view was Biden had done so poorly, she was concerned that there would be such a bum rush to get rid of him that Kamala Harris would be immediately anointed because there would be no other choice.

And she wanted to have more of a process.

She wanted to slow that down just a little bit and work on Biden to get out more slowly so a plan could be put together.

Barack Obama, this is just, I mean, my jaw dropped when I found this out, and we report on it in the book.

The day that Biden hands over the baton to Kamala Harris and endorses her, first of all, she has to beg for the endorsement to come out.

- She does.

- You know, he calls her and he says, "He's going to get out."

And she says, "Are you going to endorse me?"

And he says, "Well, maybe in a few days."

And she's like, "If you get out and you don't endorse me, you're telling everybody you don't have any faith in me.

I need you to endorse me now."

And he hems and he haws and they get off the phone and then they get back on the phone and he says, "Okay, I'm going to endorse you later today, but I'm going to put out my statement first."

He wanted to sort of bask in the moment of what he saw was the magnanimity of stepping out of the race, right?

I mean, this is just, you know, I think for most people, this stuff sounds crazy.

- Stay right there, Jonathan, stay right there, before you talk about President Obama, former President Biden made it clear to Kamala Harris, I believe the phrase is no daylight, meaning you cannot, when you're out there campaigning, have any daylight, nothing, between my presidency and your candidacy.

It was implied that she would in no way say that if she were elected, her presidency would be any different than the Biden presidency.

And also, she would in no way be critical of his presidency or separate herself.

Is that an overstatement, Jon?

- I don't think it's an overstatement at all.

It's interesting, the White House communicated to her campaign, meaning at the staff level said, do what you need to do.

But the president himself left his hot breath on her neck, saying, no daylight.

I don't want you to distance yourself from me at all.

And she had been seen as disloyal in the past in politics.

That was a knock on her.

And I think it was something that weighed heavily on her.

She was now the candidate.

It's her choice on what to do.

And she chose to stick with them, to not offer change to the public at a time when the vast majority of Americans thought the country was on the wrong track.

But Biden was definitely pushing that on her.

- Do the President Obama part, the relationship between President Obama and President Biden, even though Biden served as Vice President to President Obama, it's confusing to me because there did not seem to be a lot of loyalty there on the part of Obama toward Biden.

Again, you talked about 2016, he did not support his Vice President, he rather he supported Hillary Clinton, but did President Obama talk to President Biden and tell him directly, I think you need to drop out for the good of the party, but more importantly, for the good of the country.

Did he tell him directly?

- It was never that explicit.

Obama knew that after the last few years, their relationship was strained, and he thought it would be counterproductive to tell Biden to get out.

But what he did do is ask Biden in a conversation, "What's your plan for recovering?

How are you going to get the Democrats to a place they can win?"

And Biden was, you know, he knew what Obama was saying to him, which was basically, you should get out.

And Biden's reaction was to get his back up and, you know, thought to himself, you know, what the heck's your plan?

What the heck's your plan for how the Democrats win if it's not me?

- Yeah, let's switch gears.

Donald Trump.

The campaign, Donald Trump and the campaign in the book, you make it clear they very much wanted Joe Biden to stay in the race.

Accurate?

- Absolutely.

- The impact of the assassination attempt on the campaign itself and how the election turned out?

- It's fascinating.

I think that most of us would expect that if a presidential candidate, former president, was shot, in this case in the ear, but so close to being a fatal wound, you know, you would think that that would change the trajectory of things or change the candidate himself.

And I think there were some slight changes for a brief moment for Trump in terms of his willingness to think about, and we report on this, his willingness to consider the possibility of divine intervention or divine providence and him surviving that.

But, you know, there was a lot of chatter around the Republican convention that he was going to be a lot different.

And he came out during the convention, gave a speech, and sound a whole lot like the old version of Trump.

But I think one of the things that's really fascinating is the next day, he is on his plane to the Republican Convention and he is watching a fight over whether JD Vance or Marco Rubio should be his vice presidential candidate.

And there are proxies for each of them on the plane fighting it out.

I think it's one of the more interesting scenes in the book.

And he's just enjoying it.

He's got a big bandage on his ear and he is watching the court play out in front of him.

And it's very classic Trump and it's a sign of, I think to the people around him, a sign of normalcy.

But as he's considering Vance and Rubio, I think there was a thought that Vance might be a more natural heir to the MAGA movement in that moment.

So that may have had some influence on his decision, but I always think Vance had the inside track.

- Let me ask you this.

On the issues of the economy, immigration, inflation, how much did those issues matter in the outcome of the election, particularly in key battles around states?

And also, by the way, we're based in New Jersey.

Donald Trump did not get blown out in a so-called blue state like New Jersey.

I think we're more purple than people think.

But I'm struck by this, the economy, immigration, inflation, where was she, where was he, and did it even matter?

Because he was just seen as stronger.

- So let me just, one side note on New Jersey here, because you brought it up, of New Jersey, Phil Murphy, goes to Bedminster, to the golf club there and sits down with Trump.

And Trump was shot a week earlier.

Trump is obsessed with the idea that he can win New Jersey.

And he talks to Murphy about this.

And Murphy says, "Well, you know, it might be possible."

And he says, "I'm not sure you're going to lose."

And as you point out, it was a lot closer in New Jersey than it typically is between Republicans and Democrats.

But I think to your question about the economy and immigration, I think they mattered.

I think they were everything.

The country wanted change.

They weren't happy with the situation.

Swing voters in swing states were not happy with the situation.

They were not happy with inflation.

They certainly weren't happy with illegal immigration.

And Donald Trump was talking to them about his solutions, his plans for bringing down inflation, securing the economy, their basic needs, and securing the border.

And on the other side, there was a lot of talk about democracy, which is, you know, I think for most voters, a distant thought from, "How am I going to pay my rent?"

It's not that they don't love democracy.

It's not that they don't care about democracy, it's not...

But they weren't convinced, A, that Donald Trump was going to end democracy the way the Democrats were saying, and B, they were, I think, in that moment, much more aligned with a candidate who was talking about those issues that they did consider on a daily basis.

- Let me ask you this.

What the heck was Donald Trump's appeal to African American men and a significant number of Hispanic Latino voters.

The numbers were significantly higher than in the past to the point where in places like Passaic County, New Jersey in a congressional district that had leaned Democratic for years with the late Congressman Bill Pasquale who won big, the Democratic candidate for Congress almost lost.

What the heck was the appeal for Donald Trump with minority voters, particularly men?

- Here's the thing- - And why would it be that Kamala Harris did not appeal to the degree she needed to have a more competitive chance at winning, please.

- Yeah, I think the big secret is actually that it's the same thing.

I think that voters across the board were concerned about the same things, particularly when it comes to inflation.

In addition to that, having talked to some of the insiders on the Harris campaign who are out knocking on doors, not the top-level folks at the headquarters, but people who are at the state level, like knocking on doors and stuff.

Donald Trump's stimulus package during COVID included checks that went out with his name on them.

And I think that that was helpful for him in a lot of communities, right?

When he talks about, "I'm going to make it easier for you economically," and somebody says, "Hey, I got a literal check from Donald Trump when he was president."

I think that makes a difference, but broadly, I would just say the same issues resonated with voters, whether they're, you know, whether they were white, Hispanic, Black, Asian, whatever.

- What about the anti-woke and woke?

DEI, that's over.

If policy is what it is in the Trump White House, people can decide for themselves.

But in the campaign, anti-woke.

Why was that?

Why did it resonate for so many?

Even though, I actually don't really know what it means.

Do you?

Do you know what it means?

Are we woke because we're in public broadcasting?

What does that mean?

- What does woke/anti-woke mean?

- Well, first of all, the working definition of woke over time became perplexing to me because I realized because we're in public broadcasting, we're woke.

For some of us who pursued higher education and advanced degrees, academia, woke.

Anyone who's sensitive to, concerned about equal rights for those who happen to be gay, transgender, woke.

What's not woke?

What's left?

Who's left?

- No, I mean, it's a good question, Steve.

And I think you're right that the definition of "woke" has migrated over time and it tends to be applied to that which the conservatives don't like.

But I think there is a more specific sort of meaning to it, which is, to your point, I think that from the perspective of the right, there have been too many policies that favor minorities, whether that means a racial- - Affirmative action?

- Affirmative action.

It's basically that's the argument.

And it can be affirmative action based on color, based on disability, based on, you know, whatever the quality- - Based on gender?

- Based on gender.

Exactly, so- - Based on people who are physically disabled?

Like, seriously?

Okay, I'm sorry.

- Yes, I mean, I think what we've seen from this administration and what we saw during the campaign was a desire to, at the very least, rebalance that, to take away any special consideration for, any affirmative action for, any particular class of people.

And in doing that, I mean, it has a variety of outcomes.

I mean, I'll give you an example.

One of the things that President Biden did when he was president during his stimulus bill, there was extra help for black farmers.

And Stephen Miller, who is now the deputy chief of staff for policy in the White House, filed a lawsuit against that policy, right?

So I think we all know basically what we're talking about, but the definition can expand and migrate a little bit, as you're suggesting.

- The book is called "Fight."

It is a great book.

Inside the wildest battle for the White House.

Jonathan Allen, Amie Parnes, you've done great work here.

Thank you, Steve.

- I don't like using the word entertaining when you're talking about...

Listen, we're doing a series called "Democracy in Danger" and you just told me that it doesn't resonate with people every day.

I hear what you're saying.

Some of us and I know you as well still believe that we need to fight to preserve our representative democracy.

This book- - Steve, can I hop in for one second here?

- A few seconds, go ahead.

- All I would say about that is, if the Democrats are concerned about democracy, they have to do a better job of showing voters that democracy is what protects their economic interests, their social interests, their security.

- Very well said.

Great book.

And I just want to thank you for taking the time to be with us, Jonathan Allen, author, co-author of Fight.

All the best, Jon.

- Thank you, Steve.

- I'm Steve Adubato.

And wish you all the best, regardless of who you voted for.

It'll be another election in a few years.

Election for governor in 2025 in New Jersey.

See you next time.

- [Narrator] One-On-One with Steve Adubato is a production of the Caucus Educational Corporation.

Funding has been provided by Delta Dental of New Jersey.

The New Jersey Economic Development Authority.

Johnson & Johnson.

NJM Insurance Group.

Rutgers University Newark.

The New Jersey Education Association.

Englewood Health.

Robert Wood Johnson Foundation.

And by The Turrell Fund, a foundation serving children.

Promotional support provided by New Jersey Globe.

And by ROI-NJ.

- NJM Insurance Group has been serving New Jersey businesses for over a century.

As part of the Garden State, we help companies keep their vehicles on the road, employees on the job and projects on track, working to protect employees from illness and injury, to keep goods and services moving across the state.

We're proud to be part of New Jersey.

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