Listervelt Middleton> Good evening.

The South Carolina Conference of Branches of NAACP will hold its 46th annual state convention in Columbia on October 10th.

We'll talk about that convention, a march and rally against apartheid and current issues facing the nation's oldest civil rights organization, with Mr.

Nelson Rivers, executive secretary of the South Carolina Conference of Branches of NAACP.

What will be the focus of this convention, Mr.

Rivers?

Nelson Rivers III.> Thank you, Listervelt, for having me on the program.

The focus of our convention will be fair share economic justice for Black citizens in the state of South Carolina and indeed this country.

Our new agenda for the 80s has to be economic justice, Black folk, are just not being treated fairly, when it comes to economics in this country.

Our unemployment rate is higher than anybody else.

We are being discriminated against when it comes to jobs that pay real money, jobs that can enable our people to earn a livable wage.

So what are we attempting to address at this convention is economic fairness, economic justice, by talking about governmental fair share, what was called our Governmental Economic Enhancement program, or G.E.E.P.

project, where we went around the state trying to educate Black citizens about how bad things were for Blacks in state government, Blacks who hold jobs in state government, Blacks who do not get the opportunity to get a job in state government.

Blacks who work for the state but can't be promoted to higher positions, positions of authority and higher income.

Then we talked about the fact that Black businesses cannot get contracts to do business with the state government of South Carolina, and that Black people are not appointed to the boards and commissions who control these agencies, and to judgeships who control the destiny of so many Black boys in this state.

So we're going to talk about governmental affairs here on the morning of October the 11th, in a morning workshop.

And then on that afternoon, we're going to talk about Operation Fair Share, which is private fair share, where we talk about the various agreements we've signed with all these major corporations in America, over 36 of them up to this point.

And we're talking about branches in the state of South Carolina starting to target local companies and entities to sign fair share agreements, where they will agree to hire more Blacks at entry level, to promote Blacks to high level and management supervisory positions, to give businesses or do business with Black businesses in the various areas, and also to make sure that they contribute to Black organizations, churches and etc.

in other words, be a good corporate neighbor in that, in that community and start returning some of the dollars back to the Black community that they pump into these private businesses.

And we're going to be talking strongly about economic justice, economic fair share.

And also on that Saturday, we're going to talk about education, back to school, stay in school, the high truancy rate we have in the Black community, the problems our young people are having in the public school systems in this country, and also the elimination of Black teachers, our own Education Improvement Act are going to be covered at that workshop, but our major focus will be economic justice and then education.

Listervelt> On the matter of economic justice, it was reported yesterday that the Reagan administration is looking at, cutting out this 10 percent, set aside for minority Black businesses, etc.. How do you feel about that?

Nelson> Well, I think it's just a continuance of a trend of just, blatant racism on the part of our president, and his administration.

Ronald Reagan has never demonstrated in his life, at least over the last 30 years, or any sensitivity for Black folk.

Anyhow.

And this should not be a surprise, I think the tragedy of it, of it is, is that he has tended to use red herrings to confuse the issue of affirmative action and what's fair and what's right.

This country affirmatively denied Black folk the right to participate in the economic process, the political process.

This country purposely denied Black folk the opportunity to work for certain entities and have certain jobs.

And the only way you can correct that is affirmatively do something about it.

You have to, there's no way in the world that you and I can run a race and I have shackles on my arm, my legs, and you're running free.

And when we get halfway through they stop and take the shackles off and tell me that we can start from the same point.

I'll never catch up.

You'll always be in front of me because you held me back unfairly in the first place.

So to help me catch up, you have to accelerate my pace by doing something to put me on par with you.

Now we can start equal with these folks from where we are.

Then we can talk this colorblind society foolishness that Clarence Pendleton and Ronald Reagan talk, talk about it.

But the reality of it is this country has never been colorblind and probably never will be colorblind.

And they did not use they were not colorblind when they denied us access.

So why in the world should we accept the colorblind philosophy when we we're trying to gain access?

I think that Reagan's, Reagan administration is once again proving that it's probably going to go down in history as the worst administration in terms of its relationship with Black America than we ever had in this country.

Listervelt> You're also going to be dealing with the South African apartheid system.

Tell us about what you have planned in that regard, please.

Nelson> We're going to rally at the Statehouse steps on October 10th at 6:00, where we will have various NAACP officials and other community leaders to address a crowd of persons there.

NAACP delegates from all over the state, and other community persons.

And we will do a candlelight silent procession from the state Capitol over to Zion Baptist Church, where we will have our opening night program.

We always begin our convention with the opening night program with Dr.

Gibson, who's president of the conference and also chairman of the board of national NAACP, will give the state of the conference address, and that will be held at Zion.

So we'll have the rally at the state Capitol, and then we'll march over to Zion with a silent candlelight procession to show our opposition to the racist system in South Africa, to call for the burial of apartheid, and to call for America to do all that she can to help South Africa get rid of the system that has really been disastrous for people of color in their country.

Listervelt> How do you think the Reagan administration has responded to this issue?

How would you describe it?

Nelson> I think that they're responding with destructive engagement.

They call it constructive engagement.

We think it has been destructive engagement.

In fact, when the president finally had to even mention the word sanctioned in his own vocabulary as something that he was talking about doing, although what he did was virtually meaningless.

I think that was an admission on his part that constructive engagement is dead.

It did not work, because obviously, if constructive engagement had worked it would, there would not be any need for sanctions, even the meaningless ones that he has put into effect.

I don't think that it is a work to do.

I think the Reagan administration has been insensitive, but I think that Ronald Reagan had demonstrated time and time again that he really did not understand racism and does not understand what has happened in South Africa.

They don't understand the strong feeling in this country by Black and White citizens against that kind of system.

Listervelt> Now, you said he doesn't understand.

Do you think he doesn't understand or he doesn't care?

Which?

Nelson> I think it's both.

The little he does understand doesn't care about, but I think he doesn't understand.

You heard a speech or heard a speech reported where he said that South Africa eliminated segregation in public places.

Even some of the more conservative newspapers in this country had to criticize that statement by saying, obviously, the president either does not understand or is severely ill advised.

And I think that it's a little of both.

Obviously, anybody the president of the free world to stand to sit and say, that South Africa has eliminated segregation and say it with conviction, didn't know what he was talking about.

Listervelt> How much do you think race figures in America's tolerance of apartheid?

I think its figures great.

I think it's the number one determinant.

I think that it is obvious that if this was Poland, it's obvious that if it was Germany, it's obvious that if it was Europe.

If it was, it's obvious to me, and I think that a lot of Black citizens in this country that if the victims of apartheid were White and the perpetrators were Black, that America's response would have been much more severe and much more appropriate.

And I think that it's only because the victims are Black.

And by some strange, warped logic we have in this country, we have not yet believed that Black citizens are indeed human beings, that they have, quote, certain inalienable rights that we guarantee to all human beings.

We don't think that those people are human beings?

Listervelt> What do you think?

What do you think America's tolerance of apartheid should say to Black people, about what our position, our posture, should be when it comes to America's international agenda?

Nelson> I think that it says that America still does not view the world in realistic terms, especially when they talk, when you talk about how they relate to the Black citizens and citizens of color and what they call the third world.

And I never did figure out what happened to the Second World, but the third world countries, when you think about the fact that this country does still not recognize these folks as being people who deserve to have the things that we talk about and take for granted in this country.

It says something to Black folk about how they view the world.

And so I think another thing that that we don't talk much about in this red herring of communism versus democracy, as though there's only two kinds of systems in the world.

You know, if you aren't going to be a democracy, then you must be going to be communist or influenced by Russia, which is garbage.

The people in South Africa can't know more about than the Soviet Union than do about America.

First thing on their agenda is trying to be free after freedom, then you can talk about ideology and who says that the ideology that's accepted has to be one or the other.

They are not mutually exclusive.

You don't have to have one in place of the other.

You can have neither one.

And we are running around the world trying to ram democracy down everybody's throat, the same way that we accuse the Soviet Union of running around the world trying to ram communism down everybody's throat.

And the fact of the matter is, people should be left to decide how they want to govern themselves.

And in the words of Gandhi, America has to learn and Russia has to learn that a people feel that their own bad government is still better than somebody else's good government.

Listervelt> Okay, if we can switch gears for a minute, the NAACP is also launching a membership drive.

How's that going?

When does it begin?

Nelson> It's already began.

It began September the 1st.

It's going to run through October 7th.

This is an intensive membership drive.

We've targeted four counties in the state of South Carolina Greenville, Florence, Charleston and Richland.

Because, frankly, that's where we have the largest cities, and we have branches down there that we think that we could work with or go in to target, but it is it is a statewide membership drive, and we're trying to increase our membership just in those target areas by 5000 and trying to increase it another 5000 throughout the rest of the state.

We eventually would like to see our membership by 50,000 in South Carolina in the foreseeable future.

We don't think that, that's an unrealistic goal.

Listervelt> What is it now?

Nelson> It is about 20,000 in South Carolina right now, give or take.

And it's hard to say all the time because our membership is annual.

Listervelt> Nationwide, What does it look like?

Nelson> It's been steady at about 400,000 450,000, Approaching the half million mark.

It runs steady, it fluctuated, a bit after we increased our membership a few years ago, but it's back up to where it was about 400,000.

Listervelt> What do you think will be your greatest obstacle in getting people to join the NAACP?

Nelson> You know, I used to think it it would be to convince folk that they still needed us.

But I've since learned that the biggest problem is convincing folk that we exist and what we are there for.

A lot of people, young Blacks in particular, I found, really do not know what the NAACP is, what it has done for Black citizens and for America.

What we do today and what we can do for our people in the future.

I think we have to do a serious education job on young Black folk, telling them what this organization is, because older Black folk know, and obviously White America knows.

But I think a lot of our young people have been uneducated, undereducated and misinformed about what the association is all about.

Listervelt> We're state wide.

You can tell them right now.

What is the NAACP all about?

Nelson> The NAACP Listervelt> What has it done for African-Americans?

Nelson> It is, has made America Black Americans in this country, first class citizens.

It has removed the stigma of being a second class citizen in a country that's trying to be first class.

It has given us access to restaurants, motels, hotels, places, theaters that we 20 years ago wouldn't even dream about trying to go in.

We have Black folk holding jobs to date to 20 years ago.

If they dreamed about having it they'd wake up and apologize to some White Man somewhere.

We got Black folk going places, now that they didn't even dream about going 20 years ago.

We can ride up and down the highway now.

It used to be when I was young, I remember we had to pack chicken lunches on the trip to New York because we couldn't stop anywhere along the way to use the restroom at one of these gas stations.

All that is a thing of the past.

Our young people would laugh at the recollection, when we even talk about that.

They don't believe it ever happened.

They can't envision it ever happening again.

It's very real, that economically, is it, it is happening.

happening again.

We've also gotten Black folk to the point where they are on the verge of some political influence.

We have removed some of the things that were barriers to Black citizens in the South, in particular to becoming full participants in a democratic system in this country.

And then we have put our people at the point where I think they can look at themselves and finally start to feel that this country does belong to them and do have some things that this country does owe them.

In other words, we made Black folk, somebody.

And I think that, it's like your mother if your mama never does anything for you again, again, and if she's been a good mother, you always would hold homage to your mother.

If the NAACP never helped another Black person, we still would think that they would want to join.

But beyond that, we do things today.

We're helping Black citizens who were in prison because of the color of their skin, trying to get our Black folk who've been denied jobs every day, trying to get a job, Black folk who've been denied housing because of the color of their skin, trying to get enable them to live where they want to live.

I think the most celebrated case recently was Lenell Geter, a young Black man who's from South Carolina down in Dallas, Texas, only mistake was, that he was Black, very quiet, prosperous young man doing real well.

But he got identified as somebody who committed a crime.

And before you know it, because he was Black, he was doing life in prison in a Dallas, Texas jail.

But he ended up being freed due to the diligent work of George Hairston, who's a lawyer for NAACP.

We went to the rescue, and we're doing that every day for somebody somewhere in this country, although not as celebrated as the Lenell Geter case, I think finally, people need to understand that this country is run by institutions that's developed.

You know, that doctors make more money than anybody else in America, but they still have the American Medical Association look out for their interests.

Lawyers are the second highest paid.

They have the American Bar Association look out for their interest.

So why should Black people be locked in a box where they don't have an organization looking out for their interest?

Even if America never goes to war again, it will always have an army to defend itself.

Black folk need a civil rights army, and I suggested the NAACP is our civil rights army.

Listervelt> Many people ask why is it that most of the people, or a lot of the people who have benefited the most from the struggles of the NAACP, S.C.L.C., U.N.I.A, civil rights organizations and individuals, why is it that these people seem to be the quietest people in our community?

Nelson> That's a good one.

We call them or I have begun to call them the new young uncle Tom.

You know, the old uncle Tom had reasons they were trying to, acquiesce and be quiet and not rock the boat.

So their children could get an education, sometimes, just so they could live themselves, because uppity Black folk, Black folk who express themselves, Black folk who were vocal, Black folk who were independent, Black folk who were confident were viewed as threats.

And now that we've created this atmosphere in this country where Black folk can who, who are middle class, who have the ability to, speak out for the rights of Black citizens in forums, in their own job, places and in political forums, a lot of times we won't do it.

Black folk who can challenge the system when it's wrong a lot of times won't do it.

Black folk who have the economic where withal to keep this organization, and other organizations like it strong, now won't do it.

They won't do it.

I tell, I submit, because they're selfish.

They're greedy, scared and they're Uncle Tom's.

And they are the worst kind of Uncle Tom.

That Uncle Tom, who does not have a good reason for being that.

I think that they have decided that they made it because they are qualified, because they are good looking and educated, and nobody did it for them but them, and they owe nothing to anybody, but them.

Of course they just do wrong as the day is long, because the fact of the matter is, nobody Black in America made it just because they're qualified, because we've been qualified ever since we've been here.

I recall just recently I talked to a young lady back down in Charleston, and she told me she had her job because she was qualified, not ignoring the fact that she was working for the County of Charleston in a position that 20 years ago, I don't care how good looking or qualified you were, if you were Black, you couldn't get that job.

So obviously she didn't get it just because she was qualified.

Because we've been qualified ever since we've been here.

The fact of the matter is, NAACP and other organizations knocked down the barriers to let her qualifications be a factor in her getting that job.

And I think with all these folks that you talk about don't understand, they don't care to understand.

I mean, I had a young lady just telling me recently yesterday that they don't want to deal with trying to help somebody.

They're about business.

We send them to these schools and they came out of school, learning how to take care of business, make money, and they don't want to hear about somebody suffering or struggling somewhere, because they know they're not going to help anybody.

They're going to take care of themselves and not aware of the fact that what goes around will come around.

If I don't help you in the morning, it might be my time tonight.

Listervelt> Now one thing, I've talked with a lot of so-called professional, African-Americans.

The fear.

That is so rampant, folks would not believe how much fear exists among that segment, within that segment, professional Black people.

You would think that it was, Nelson> Apartheid.

Listervelt> Apartheid.

Nelson> Yeah.

Listervelt> You know.

Nelson> It is amazing, the fear.

Listervelt> How do you deal with that and you, you, you bring about the NAACP, and another organization.

You put people in a position where they can get so-called decent jobs, but at the same time, they are really of no value in terms of returning, and building on that freedom, etc.. Nelson> I think in 1985 it's inexcusable.

There's no excuse for that kind of behavior because there's nothing to fear.

The one problem we've gotten is we have is trying to convince folk that they ought to join this organization, make us strong enough so that if somebody mess with them, they'll have a recourse.

If somebody does something to them, retribution, they'll have a recourse.

But if the organization is strong, we have communities all over the south, that when they had a strong NAACP, White and power structure behavior changed.

And Martin Luther King said it very well, we can't change attitudes.

Only the Lord can change attitudes, but we can change behavior.

We can regulate behavior.

We can make these folk change the way they relate and deal on these people and these people who you're talking about this are going to have to understand that the fear is unrealistic because a frightened man will be frightened of anything.

And if somebody can intimidate you after you've been given a job through the blood, sweat and tears and hard work of so many Black folk, and you get the job and you won't be a man or a woman, well, you have the job, then what was the use of us getting you the job in the first place?

We might as well have kept you home, let you plow in the field and sent the mule to school because it just did not make any sense.

And they are afraid.

I talked to them and they won't speak up because they are afraid of something happen.

What's going to happen?

I mean, you have the NAACP, you have other organization entities there, and you have your own education, your own ability, if somebody fires you for standing up for what is rightfully yours, then you have to feel compelled to do something about it.

You have to be man enough or woman enough to do something about it.

But I think that what they are afraid of is maybe we don't have the protection or the mechanism in place to take care of those folk who rally against the system.

Listervelt> If you ask the average African American to define freedom, how do you think he or she would respond?

Do you think we know what freedom is?

Nelson> I think that a lot of our folks think they already got it.

And, thinking maybe in some perspective as we do, it would be hard to say.

I think the freedom to do what you want to do is freedom.

And I don't think that there are very many Black folk in this country who honestly will access that they are free to do whatever they want to do as sharing the same freedom as their White counterparts.

I think that honestly, we have to preach and we have to believe it, and we have to try our best to do it.

But I think that folk almost always take that hesitant second breath when you talk about free enough to live where this guy lives, free enough to go where he goes.

Well, maybe not, but I think that freedom in just lay men Black folks' terms is freedom to do and be what you want to be if it's legal.

Listervelt> Nobody could argue with the fact that the NAACP had done a lot for African-Americans, but can it not also be argued that in the process of "Americanizing" Black people, the NAACP and other civil rights organizations may have unwittingly, destroyed the sense of tribe, the sense of, of, of, of people, that existed among Black people, the sense of responsibility to go back into the community or stay in the community and help.

Nelson> I don't think that... it can be argued, but I don't think it can be argued effectively, not about what the NAACP has done.

I think that is phenomenon that is developed just with the rapid pace of this country and where we are.

We've become a technological, instant gratification society.

I mean, you go and you want entertainment, you turn TV on, and it pops on instantly.

You can get dinner cooked now in an hour in a microwave oven.

We live in an instant gratification society that has really devalued personal 1 to 1 context, personal 1 to 1, exchanges.

But Black folks still are among the people in this country, who still do more personal 1 to 1 contact than anybody else.

I think that, studies show that Black folk have a tendency to view things in relationship of how it affects the individual.

And, the majority views how it affects themselves.

And the Black folk do look at a have a group kind of consciousness.

They do view things.

That's why Black folk sometimes feel guilty when something happens in the news.

And as a Black person who did it, they share some kind of, community wide responsibility for the bad behavior of somebody Black or somebody Black does something real good Black folk feel good about it, because they share that kind of community responsibility.

I don't think it's been, as diminished, as we seem to want to try to say it is.

I think that what happened to Ronald Reagan in the last election proved that Black folks still listen to the same drama.

By and large, because 90 percent of us voted for somebody other than him.

And if he ran again today, 95 percent of us still would vote for somebody other than him.

Because no matter what they say about us, we still know right from wrong and who's who, if you put it right in front of us.

I think that the problem of teenage pregnancy, the Black on Black crime, that is a manifestation of racism and slavery, that we have not just done a successful job of removing.

That's obviously the work of people who do not love themselves, who do not feel, do not feel good about themselves.

And while we have needled Black folks to participate at the table in some fashions, we have not done it completely because we can't.

We can't be all things to all people.

We are a civil rights organization, and although we try to do a lot of things, we're accused of not doing some things successfully, because we try sometimes to do too much, we have to stand back sometimes and focus our attention on what we are and what we do best and do that well.

And maybe somebody else will come along with agencies and organizations who take care of some other facets of Black life and do it equally as well.

Listervelt> I think you just answered my question.

My next question, what are some of the what's some of the issues and problems that the NAACP is dealing with today?

Nelson> Well we're dealing, first of all, with economics.

We can't get away from that.

Economics has become the new segregation for America.

There's no, there are no more signs that say White-only in this club.

But what they have now are a White can only live in this neighborhood.

But what they have now homes for sale 150 thousand dollars starting price.

Well, Black folks don't have to be real smart to figure out who going to buy most of those houses, because our people do not make the kind of income that can purchase 150 thousand dollar home.

You have clubs now that don't say we don't let Black people in.

They said, we have a membership that's $400 a year, or we have a dress code.

There has to be a certain way so they don't have to say Black or White.

Now they put the dollar sign up.

And until we can enable our people to make some of this money, make some of these dollars, then they won't be able to.

So what you have now is new segregation.

Listervelt> But doesn't that, doesn't that sound like wherever White people want to go, we want to go.

I mean, you know, it comes across that way, whether you mean that or not.

I mean it's... Nelson> So I think the, the right and the ability to go wherever you want to go, I don't think it has anything to do with, with White citizens.

You have to understand that the houses that, that were being built that were excellent homes or the better homes that follow the better schools just so happened the White folk made those things for their kids and for themselves, and did not share in that economic pie with us.

And we ended up having to do that and as Black folk moved up the ladder, they wanted to go wherever the money can take them.

>> Okay.

Nelson> If you're not making the money to go there, you won't go.

Listervelt> Okay, you've been in this position for about a year now.

How's it been going?

Nelson> Rough.

(laughs) But it has been good.

Like I told you it's been tough but it's been a very rewarding experience.

Tough education.

It, we've accomplished a lot.

We had our most successful Freedom Fund dinner.

We're about to embark on my first convention as executive secretary.

We're looking forward to that.

We had a fire and had to change, office headquarters to a new location.

And things have just been, been hot.

We've been in court several times this year already.

We'll be back in court, but our branches are very active around the state now.

They're very supportive of the state office, very supportive of the state office.

We got a good rapport going, and I think that we're going to be able to do some good things in this upcoming year.

But this year has been difficult because of all the obstacles that were unforeseen.

But that's part of being Black in America.

You got to just figure that no matter how well you have it planned, something going to mess up, and you have to anticipate that.

And that's what has happened.

But it's been very rewarding.

The people in the conference have been real good to me.

Listervelt> Would you believe me if I said that, a lot of people have said that you've brought a new level of respect to this.

I don't say that often, you know.

Nelson> Well, I would, I would, I would believe it.

I hope so.

>> Okay.

>> I would appreciate that.

>> Okay.

Nelson> The fact that we worked hard on it, has nothing to do exclusively with myself.

It has a lot to do that the conference does have a good image because it's present all the way down.

Listervelt> Okay.

We got to go.

Thank you very much.

Nelson> We appreciate you.

Listervelt> All right.

Nelson> Thank you.

Listervelt> That's our program.

Thanks for joining us.

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