>> THE CONSTITUTION HAS LASTED AN AMAZING LONG TIME, WITH ONLY 27 AMENDMENTS, BUT IS IT TIME TO ADD A FEW?

NEXT ON IVORY TOWER.

♪ ♪ >> WELCOME TO IVORY TOWER.

I'M BARBARA FOUGHT FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY.

JOINING ME TONIGHT ON THE PANEL ARE: KRISTI ANDERSON, FROM SYRACUSE UNIVERSITY, ANIRBAN ACHARYA, FROM LEMOYNE COLLEGE AND TARA ROSS, FROM ONONDAGA COMMUNITY COLLEGE HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO EVERYONE.

I HOPE YOU HAVE ENJOYED YOUR TURKEY --- AND MY FAVORITE --- MASHED POTATOES.

BECAUSE OF THE HOLIDAY, WE HAVE RECORDED THIS SHOW A WEEK AHEAD, SO IF THE NEWS HAS GOTTEN AHEAD OF SOMETHING WE SAY, YOU'LL UNDERSTAND WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

WE'RE GOING TO START TONIGHT WITH THE CONSTITUTION.

THE LAST AMENDMENT CAME BACK IN 1992; THAT WHEN CONGRESS VOTES ITSELF A PAY RAISE, IT CAN'T BE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

BEFORE THAT IT WAS 1971 THAT WE GOT THE 26TH AMENDMENT LOWERING THE VOTING AGE.

SO NOT MANY CHANGES IN THE LAST 50 YEARS.

RECENTLY THE NEW YORK TIMES ASKED SEVEN WRITERS AND LEGAL SCHOLARS WHAT NEEDS FIXING IN THE CONSTITUTION.

WE'RE GOING TO REVIEW SOME OF THOSE IDEAS.

AND STARTING WITH KRISTI, WHAT SHOULD BE THE NEXT AMENDMENT?

>> ONE OF THE AMENDMENTS PROPOSED WAS TO EXPAND THE SUPREME COURT.

AND I TOOK A LITTLE BIT OF ISSUE WITH THAT.

I DON'T THINK THE COURT NEEDS TO BE EXPANDED.

BUT SOME OF THE OTHER PARTS OF THIS WOULD, I DO ENDORSE, IN PARTICULAR, A PROPOSAL A COUPLE YEARS AGO TO KEEP THE COURT AT 9 BUT LIMIT THE TERMS OF THE SUPREME COURT JUSTICES TO 18 YEARS.

AND SET IT UP TO BEGIN WITH, YOU WOULD HAVE TO DRAW LOTS AMONG THE PEOPLE ON THE COURT NOW AS TO HOW LONG THEIR TERMS WOULD BE.

BUT IT WOULD EVENTUALLY BE SUCH THAT EACH PRESIDENT COULD APPOINT TWO-- HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO APPOINT TWO PEOPLE DURING HIS FIRST TERM, HIS OR HER FIRST TERM AND TWO DURING THE SECOND TERM.

THIS WOULD GIVE, CERTAINLY GIVE THE JUDGES PLENTY OF ROOM FOR INDEPENDENCE, 18 YEARS IS LONGER THAN THE TENURE OF MOST HIGH COURT JUDGES IN MOST COUNTRIES.

IT ALSO WOULD END THE PRACTICE OF STRATEGIC RETIREMENT IN ALL THE POLITICS AROUND THAT.

SO I WOULD ENDORSE AN AMENDMENT LIKE THAT.

>> IS 16 TOO MANY?

>> I THINK YOU CAN EXPAND THE COURT BUT MORE IMPORTANTLY, WE HAVE TO SEE THAT TO BEGIN WITH, LIKE YOU KNOW, THE COURT AND THE PRESIDENCY ARE LESS REPRESENTATIVE OF THE THREE BRANCHES OF GOVERNMENT AND MANY PEOPLE HAVE BEEN CALLING THE SUPREME COURT A JURISTOCRA CY.

SOMETHING HAS TO GIVE.

IF IT IS NOT EXPANSION THAT WILL CREATE A POLITICAL STRUGGLE BETWEEN REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, A TERM LIMIT AND A SUPER MAJORITY FOR NOT JUST A SIMPLE MAJORITY.

I THOUGHT THE DISCUSSION AROUND THE 13th AMENDMENT AND THE ISSUE, THE STATEMENT ABOUT NO CITIZEN SHALL BE SUBJECT TO SLAVERY OR INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE WAS VERY INTERESTING.

AND THE DESIRE IS TO COMPLETELY SORT OF REMOVE THAT.

A PART OF ME ABSOLUTELY SEES THE NEED FOR IT BECAUSE THEN IT WOULD BE A BETTER REFLECTION OF WHAT AMERICA SHOULD BE ABOUT.

BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I HAVE THE REMOVAL INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE INTERESTING BECAUSE I THOUGHT ABOUT IT IN TERMS OF PRISONERS AND HAVING PRISONERS DO WORK AND PART OF THE FRAMERS IDEA, AS I UNDERSTAND IT, WAS THIS NOTION THAT YOU SHOULD BE COMPELLED AS PART OF, YOU KNOW, SORT OF YOUR PUNISHMENT.

THERE SHOULD BE AN ALLOWANCE TO ALLOW YOU TO DO WORK TO BASICALLY RESTITUTE FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE.

REDEFINE INVOLUNTARY SERVITUDE TO REFLECT THE FACT THAT IF YOU HAVE COMMITTED A CRIME FOR WHICH THERE WILL BE FISCAL RESTITUTION, PAYING BACK THE STATE, ET CETERA, THAT YOU SHOULD BE ABLE TO BE REQUIRED TO DO THAT.

BUT DO IT IN SUCH A WAY THAT IT MAKES IT CLEAR THAT THE PRISONER IS DOING THE RESTITUTION.

>> AND THE PRISONER IS SHOULD HAVE REASONABLE CONDITIONS UNDER WHICH TO WORK AND HAVE LESS THAN ALMOST NOTHING IN PAY.

THAT WOULD ACTUALLY DO SOMETHING TOWARD REHABILITATION PROVIDING SKILLS, PERHAPS, WHAT HAPPENS NOW TO MANY PRISONERS IS BASICALLY SLAVERY.

>> ANIRBAN, THERE WAS ONE ABOUT LABOR UNIONS.

>> I THINK THIS IS AN IMPORTANT AMENDMENT THAT CAN HAPPEN TO THE U.S. CONSTITUTION THAT WE COULD MAKE AN ABSOLUTE RIGHT FOR WORKERS IN THE UNITED STATES TO FORM UNIONS AND, YOU KNOW, CREATE BARRIERS FOR COMPANIES TO NOT LIQUIDATE THAT.

WE HAVE SEEN IN AMAZON AND OTHER PLACES, REALLY AGGRESSIVE EFFORTS BY THE COMPANIES TO BREAK UP UNIONS, TO STOP UNIONIZING.

AND I THINK AMERICAN LABOR IS PRIME FOR, YOU KNOW, BARGAINING POWER AND COOPERATION AND SO I THINK THAT KIND OF AMENDMENT WOULD REALLY HELP AMERICAN LABOR AND PRODUCTIVITY.

>> TARA, WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT ONE?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S NECESSARY BECAUSE THERE IS SUCH AN AGGRESSIVE MOVE TO PREVENT UNIONS FROM REALLY REPRESENTING WORKERS.

THERE IS SO MUCH EFFORT ON THE PART OF CORPORATIONS TO FIND LOOPHOLES IN ANY SORT OF REASONABLE CONTRACT FOR WORKERS.

SO I THINK IT WOULD BE GOOD TO HAVE AN AMENDMENT THAT MAKES IT VERY CLEAR THAT WORKERS CAN ORGANIZE IF THAT'S WHAT THE WORKERS WANT.

>> KRISTI, WAS THERE ONE THAT YOU DID NOT LIKE?

>> I CERTAINLY DID NOT LIKE THE PROPOSAL THAT THE WORD PERSON SHALL APPLY TO ALL HUMAN LIFE BORN OR UNBORN.

>> AND YOU WANT TO SAY MORE ABOUT WHY?

>> WELL, OBVIOUSLY THAT RESTRICTS ABORTION TO PERHAPS NOTHING AND DEPENDING ON WHEN YOU BELIEVE LIFE BEGINS, AND I THINK THAT WE ARE HEADING THAT WAY VIA STATE LAWS.

I THINK IT WOULD BE JUST A TERRIBLE THING IF THE CONSTITUTION WERE TO SUPPORT THAT.

>> TARA.

>> THAT'S ONE OF THOSE PROPOSALS THAT I'M TORN ABOUT AND I'M TORN ABOUT IT NOT BECAUSE OF SO MUCH A PRO-LIFE ARGUMENT BUT A SCIENTIFIC ARGUMENT.

INCREASINGLY SCIENCE IS MAKING IT POSSIBLE FOR LIFE TO ACTUALLY BE VIABLE AND POSSIBLE EARLIER AND EARLIER AND FOR THOSE INDIVIDUALS TO HAVE A VERY GOOD LIFE IN SOME CASES, WITHOUT ANY DISABILITIES OF ANY SORT.

SO I AM CONCERNED THAT THE WAY WE DEFINE PERSON NOW IS VERY LIMITING AND THAT IT NEEDS TO BE BROADENED BASED ON SCIENTIFIC ISSUES.

>> WELL, FOR OUR SECOND TOPIC, I WOULD LIKE TO HEAR THE PANEL'S THOUGHTS ABOUT WHAT I THINK IS A SOCIETAL CHANGE IN THE MEANING OF WORK.

THE PANDEMIC HAS CERTAINLY AFFECTED THIS, UNEXPECTED LAYOFFS AND MORE TIME AT HOME HAVE CAUSED A LOT OF PEOPLE TO RETHINK THEIR WORK LIFE SOME ARE GIVING UP GOOD JOBS TO MOVE CLOSER TO FAMILY.

OTHERS ARE TRYING OUT NEW VENTURES.

THE NUMBER OF PEOPLE WHO QUIT THEIR JOBS IN SEPTEMBER HIT A RECORD HIGH.

I WONDER, ANIRBAN, ARE YOU SEEING THIS CHANGE AND DO YOU THINK BUSINESS IS READY TO ADJUST TO THIS?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND ECONOMISTS ARE GOING TO SORT OUT THIS DATA AND WHAT IS HAPPENING IS KIND OF CONFOUNDING A LOT OF SCHOLARS AND THOSE WHO OBSERVE THE LABOR MARKET.

I WOULD LIKE TO START WITH THE GALLUP SUMMER POLL THAT SAYS 48% OF THE WORKFORCE ARE ACTIVELY JOB SEARCHING OR WATCHING FOR OPPORTUNITIES.

THE GREAT RESIGNATION WHICH THIS HAS BEEN CALLED COMES WITH A GREAT DISCONTENT, WITH THE NATURE OF WORK THE DIGNITY OF WORK AND MOST OF THESE RESIGNATIONS HAVE COME FROM HOSPITALITY, FROM HEALTHCARE AND FROM RETAIL.

I THINK THERE ARE TWO THNGS GOING ON HERE.

ONE THAT THE LABORERS FIND THAT IT IS A GOOD JOB MARKET.

A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SEARCHING SO I'M GOING TO WAIT AND FIND OTHER JOBS.

I'M GOING TO SWITCH.

BUT ALSO IN THE LONGER TERM, I THINK WHAT ECONOMISTS ARE COMING TO SEE NOW IS THAT LARGE SOCIETAL EVENTS FOR EXAMPLE LIKE THE GREAT DEPRESSION IN THE EARLY 20th CENTURY, HAD LONG-TERM EFFECTS ON PEOPLE'S BEHAVIOR, ON ECONOMIC BEHAVIOR.

SO, FOR EXAMPLE, THE GREAT DEPRESSION STORY, THE PAPER CALLED DEPRESSION BABIES, IT SHOWED THAT PEOPLE GROWING UP AT THAT TIME WERE MUCH LESS WILLING TO TAKE RISKS THAN THE GENERATIONS THAT CAME AFTER.

SO SIMILARLY I THINK IT HAS CHANGED ECONOMIC BEHAVIOR IN CERTAIN WAYS, WHICH ARE KIND OF LONG-TERM.

PEOPLE MIGHT THINK THAT HEY, MAYBE I DON'T NEED TO CONSUME THAT MUCH.

MAYBE I DON'T NEED TO REALLY TAKE A HORRIBLE JOB WHERE I'M IN THE HAMSTER WHEEL OF PAYING FOR DAYCARE TO KEEP MY JOB.

AND ON THE WHOLE, ONLY 6.3% OF WORKERS ARE UNIONIZED IN THE PRIVATE SECTOR, SO YOU KNOW, THAT ALSO GIVES A VERY DIFFICULT FOR BARGAINING POWER.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE A UNION, YOU CAN'T BARGAIN.

YOU QUIT.

RIGHT?

SO I THINK THERE ARE TWO ASPECTS GOING.

ONE IS THE PSYCHOLOGICAL ASPECT AND REDEFINING DIGNIFIED WORK AND WHAT WE NEED TO DO WITH OUR LIVES BUT ALSO FEELING THIS KIND OF PRESSURE OR HOPE THAT I DON'T REALLY NEED TO TAKE THE FIRST JOB I LAND.

>> THEY FEEL LIKE THERE ARE MORE OPPORTUNITIES.

THAT MAKES SENSE.

I DON'T FEEL LIKE I CAN MENTION, THIS IS A NARROWER POINT, BUT IT SEEMS TO ME THAT THE NATURE OF WORK, WHERE PEOPLE WORK, HOW THEY WORK IS GOING TO CHANGE, TOO.

I MEAN THE ZOOMFICATION OF EVERYTHING IS, WE ARE GOING TO STEP BACK AND SEE WHERE THAT IS APPROPRIATE, WHEN IT IS NOT APPROPRIATE.

I TRIED TO BRIEFLY LOOK FOR THE DATA BUT I HERD SOMETIME IN THE MID PANDEMIC OF NATURAL EXPERIMENT OF A COMPANY I THINK IN JAPAN, WHICH HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH THE PANDEMIC BUT WERE REBUILDING SOME OF THEIR OFFICES SO SOME PEOPLE WORKED FROM HOME.

SOME PEOPLE WORKED AT THE OFFICE AND THERE WERE SOME HYBRID WORKERS.

AND THE HYBRID WORKERS WERE, IF I REMEMBER CORRECTLY, WERE THE MOST PRODUCTIVE BAND THE HAPPENNIEST-- AND THE HAPPENNIEST.

SO I THINK-- THE HAPPIEST.

SO WAYS OF NOT BEING AT THE OFFICE EVERY DAY EIGHT HOURS, IS BEING-- WILL COME TO THE FORE.

PEOPLE WILL EXAMINE MORE.

JUST LIKE INDIVIDUALS ARE EXAMINING WHAT THEY HOPE TO DO AND WANT TO DO, FIRMS WILL EXAMINE WHAT IS THE BEST WAY AND WHAT IS THE MOST EFFECTIVE WAY TO ALLOCATE WORK AND TO HAVE WORKERS THERE OR NOT.

>> TARA, ARE THERE OTHER THINGS BUSINESS CAN DO OR THINGS THAT GOVERNMENT CAN DO TO ADJUST TO THIS CHANGE?

>> I REALLY DON'T SEE THIS AS BEING SOMETHING THAT THE GOVERNMENT NEEDS TO DO.

BUT I DO THINK BUSINESSES DO NEED TO TAKE THIS CHANGE SERIOUSLY.

AND RIGHT NOW I THINK MANY BUSINESSES ARE SEEING THIS AS SORT OF A MOMENT IN TIME.

I THINK MANY BUSINESSES ARE SORT OF WAITING TO SEE, OKAY, ARE WORKERS REALLY GOING TO DEMAND TO WORK FROM HOME MORE?

OR DO THEY REALLY WANT TO GET BACK INTO THE OFFICE?

AND WHAT BENEFITS US AS THE EMPLOYER MORE?

YOU KNOW, IS IT BETTER FOR US TO HAVE EMPLOYEES IN THE OFFICE?

IS IT BETTER TO HAVE EMPLOYEES WORKING FROM HOME BUT MAYBE BEING MORE PRODUCTIVE?

AND SO I THINK EMPLOYERS SHOULD BE MORE FLEXIBLE, BUT I ALSO THINK EMPLOYERS NEED TO BE REALISTIC ABOUT THE TYPE OF BUSINESS.

AND I THINK THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE DON'T THINK ABOUT AS SOME BUSINESSES ARE GOING TO BE MUCH MORE FLEXIBLE AND ABLE TO HAVE A GOOD PORTION OF THEIR EMPLOYEES BE HYBRID OR TO BE COMPLETELY AT HOME WORKING.

OTHER BUSINESSES CANNOT.

AND I'M JUST GOING TO TAKE AN AN ANECDOTAL EXAMPLE.

FAST FOOD SHIFTED TO DO THE GRUBHUB, OTHER COMPANIES LIKE THAT.

BUT WHAT THAT HAS MEANT IS THAT MANY COMPANIES-- AND THIS HAS BEEN EXACERBATED BY THE EMPLOYEE PROBLEM, IF YOU GO INSIDE A RESTAURANT, IT BECOMES VERY DIFFICULT TO GET SERVICE BECAUSE THEY'RE SO FOCUSED ON THE GRUBHUBS AND SO DELIVERY SERVICES THAT THEY HAVE STOPPED FOCUSING ON THE CUSTOMERS WALKING UP TO THE COUNTER.

AND SO MANY TIMES YOU GO INTO A FAST FOOD RESTAURANT, WHATEVER IT IS.

YOU MAY STAND THERE 15 TO 20 MINUTES, YOU KNOW, NOW YOU THE ABILITY TO PACK UP AND LEAVE, BUT YOU MAY STAND THERE OR WAIT AT YOUR TABLE 15 TO 20 MINUTES WAITING FOR YOUR SERVICE BECAUSE THEY'RE SERVING THE DELIVERY SERVICES.

SO EMPLOYERS, AS THEY RESPOND TO THIS, AND I THINK THIS IS ALSO PART OF THE RESIGNATIONS, ET CETERA.

EMPLOYERS ARE HAVING TO ADJUST TO BASICALLY BOTH WORLDS NOW.

AND SO I THINK SOME EMPLOYERS ARE DOING BETTER AT IT.

OTHERS ARE KIND OF TRYING TO WAIT IT OUT AND ASSUME THINGS WILL GO BACK TO THE WAY THEY WERE.

SO THAT'S ALSO A BIG PART OF THIS.

AND I WANT TO SAY ONE OTHER THING ABOUT HOSPITALITY AND RETAIL SERVICES.

I WOULD INCLUDE SERVICES LIKE STEWARDESSES, ET CETERA.

SOMETHING ELSE IS HAPPENING HERE, TOO.

THOSE EMPLOYEES WHO, SOME OF THEM WERE UNDERPAID, THEIR WORK WITH THE PUBLIC WAS NOT REALLY BEING RECOGNIZEED FOR ALL OF THE ASPECTS OF IT.

THEY'RE SAYING WAIT A MINUTE.

WE ARE NOT THE SORT OF, YOU KNOW, PUNCHING BAGS FOR THE PUBLIC'S ANXIETIES.

I THINK THAT'S CAUSING SOME OF THE SHIFTING IN THE WORKPLACE AND SHIFTING IN THE EMPLOYEES.

>> ANIRBAN, WE ALL WORK WITH YOUNG ADULTS AND IT SEEMS TO ME THEY HAVE A DIFFERENT VIEW OF WORK THAN BABY BOOMERS PERHAPS.

>> YES, I THINK ONE OF THE INTERESTING CHANGES FROM DATA AND OTHER STUDIES THAT HAVE FOLLOWED IS THAT MANY YOUNG PEOPLE DON'T EXPECT THAT THEY WILL HAVE ONE OR TWO JOBS THROUGH THEIR LIVES.

THEY EXPECT TO DO DIFFERENT JOBS AND MULTIPLE JOBS SIMULTANEOUSLY.

MAYBE THAT'S BECAUSE JOBS WITH GOOD PENSIONS AND SECURITY FOR LIFE, THOSE ARE VERY DIFFICULT TO COME BY.

THE JOHN DEERE STRIKERS, YOU KNOW, THE STRIKE THAT HAPPENED, ONE THING WAS THAT THEY'RE NOT WILLING TO GIVE ANY PENSIONS.

SO I DO THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT A HOPE NECESSARILY.

SOMETIMES IT'S A DESPAIR THAT WHY DO I HAVE TO DO THREE OR FOUR JOBS, BUT THERE IS AN EXPECT ACHES THAT ONE WOULD-- EXPECTATION THAT ONE WOULD NOT DO ONLY ONE SINGLE JOB.

I WANT TO ADD THE REST OF THE WORLD LEARNS FROM THE UNITED STATES.

THE UNITED STATES SHOULD LEARN FROM THE WEST REST OF THE WORLD, FOR EXAMPLE.

ICELAND WENT INTO A FOUR-DAY WORK WEEK AND THEY SAW THE PRODUCTIVITY INCREASE, RIGHT?

SO WE HAVE REAL CONCRETE EVIDENCE THAT SHORTENING THE WORK WEEK, MAKE MAKING WORK A MORE GENTLER KINDER WAY TO LIVE MAY ACTUALLY HELP IN THE LABOR MARKET.

WE SAW 1.2% DECLINE IN REAL WAGES AFTER INFLATION FROM THE LABOR BUREAU.

SO YES, I THINK, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THE YOUNG GENERATION DO NOT SEE THAT THEY MIGHT HAVE A STABLE JOB FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIFE AND THEY'RE HEDGING AGAINST WHAT THEY CAN DO.

>> IT LEADS US TO THINK WHAT ARE SOME CALLING A REAL CRISIS IN MENTAL HEALTH.

NOT ENOUGH COUNCILORS OR THERAPISTS.

AT A RECENT HEARING IN ALBANY, A SPOKESPERSON FOR HORIZON HEALTH SAID IT HAD 41 POSITIONS OPEN AND THE TURNOVER RATE HAS INCREASED TO 28% .

ONE RECENT STUDY SHOWED THAT ONLY HALF OF THE CHILDREN WHOSE PARENTS WANTED TO GET MENTAL HEALTHCARE FOR THEIR CHILDREN COULD GET IT.

AND COUNSELING CAN BE A BURN-OUT PROFESSION.

TARA, WAS CAN BE DONE TO HELP PEOPLE WHO ARE STRUGGLING?

>> FIRST YOU HAVE TO RECOGNIZE THE LEVEL OF THE PROBLEM AND THIS HAS BEEN A PROBLEM THAT HAS BEEN GROWING EVEN BEFORE THE PANDEMIC THE NUMBER OF CHILDREN BEING DIAGNOSED WITH A.D.H.A.

AND VARIOUS LEARNING DISABILITIES, THE NUMBER OF YOUNG PEOPLE STRUGGLING WITH WITH SUICIDE, TRAUMAS OF ALL SORTS, AND CITIZENS IN GENERAL.

THOSE NUMBERS ARE GROWING.

YOU HAVE TO COME TO GRIPS WITH THE FACT THAT IT IS A REAL PROBLEM, A GROWING PROBLEM.

IT IS A PROBLEM THAT IN SOME WAYS HAS BEEN INCREASED BY SCIENCE BECAUSE SCIENCE IS IDENTIFYING MORE OF THE PROBLEMS THAT'S THE FIRST PART OF THIS.

THE SECOND PART OF THIS IS TO MAKE IT MORE INTERESTING AND MORE ACCEPTABLE FOR PEOPLE TO GO INTO THE FIELDS, PSYCHOLOGY, PSYCHIATRY WHERE YOU GET THE PERSONS WHO CAN DO THE THERAPY.

ANOTHER ISSUE IS BETTER PAY SIMPLY.

BETTER PAY, ESPECIALLY FOR SCHOOL COUNSELORS, SCHOOL THERAPISTS, FOR THERAPISTS AND COUNCILORS WHO WORK WITH MENTAL HEALTH FACILITIES, WHO WORK IN REHAB FACILITIES WHERE YOU HAVE A CERTAIN LEVEL OF THAT AS WELL.

THEY NEED BETTER PAY.

THEY NEED BETTER WORKING CONDITIONS, AND THEY NEED BETTER PROTECTIONS BECAUSE ESPECIALLY IN SOME OF YOUR GROUP ORIENTED FACILITIES AND YOUR ACTUAL MENTAL HEALTH INSTITUTIONS, THE PAY IS NOT SIMPLY ABOUT THE WORK THAT THEY'RE DOING.

IT'S ABOUT SOME OF THE HAZARDS BECAUSE WHEN YOU ARE OR DEALING WITH MENTAL HEALTH PATIENTS, YOU MAY GET SOMEONE WHO HAS A MENTAL BREAKDOWN AND SOMETIMES THAT BECOMES PHYSICAL.

THERE IS ALSO THE PSYCHOLOGICAL IMPACT OF WORKING WITH THOSE TYPES OF INDIVIDUALS, WHICH IS THAT TURNOVER THAT YOU WERE SPEAKING ABOUT.

SO ALL OF THESE THINGS NEED TO BE ADDRESSED.

AND CERTAINLY PAYING PEOPLE MORE, GIVING THEM MORE TIME OFF IN ORDER TO RECHARGE THEIR BATTERIES, AND IF YOU KNOW ANYONE IN THE FIELD, THEY ALSO OFTEN REMIND YOU THAT MOST PSYCHIATRISTs OR PSYCHOLOGISTS HAVE THEIR OWN PSYCHIATRIST OR PSYCHOLOGIST.

THAT'S ANOTHER ASPECT OF IT AND EMPLOYERS NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT AND MAYBE GIVE A STIPEND OR HAVE SOMEONE ON STAFF WHO IS THE PERSON THAT THE STAFF PEOPLE GO TO ALL OF THESE ARE COMPONENTS OF A MUCH BIGGER AND MUCH GROWING PROBLEM.

>> DO HAVE YOU IDEAS HOW TO WORK ON THIS ISSUE?

>> MORE PAY IS DEFINITELY A GOOD IDEA.

I WAS SHOCKED TO SEE THE AVERAGE SALARY NATIONALLY FOR MENTAL HEALTH WORKERS IS $37,000 WITH THE LOWEST 10% LEARNING ABOUT 25,000 DOLLARS A YEAR I HAVE TWO SUGGESTIONS.

ONE IS THAT I'VE HEARD AND READ ABOUT SOME VERY GOOD AND USEFUL PARTNERSHIPS THROUGH THE UNIVERSITIES AND HOSPITALS ON THE ONE HAND AND DISTRICTS ON THE SCHOOL DISTRICTS ON THE OTHER HAND SO PEOPLE WHO CAN TRAIN THERAPISTS AND TRAIN SCHOOL EMPLOYEES TO HELP WITH MENTAL HEALTH ISSUES AND JUST BE A RESOURCE-- SCH PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN THE INSTITUTION AND THE HOSPITAL?

>> THE PARTNERSHIP BETWEEN SCHOOL DISTRICTS AND EITHER HOSPITALS AND/OR UNIVERSITIES.

THERE IS A REALLY INTERESTING STORY ABOUT STANFORD UNIVERSITY WORKING WITH BOTH ITS HOSPITALS AND ITS PSYCHOLOGY DEPARTMENTS OR WHATEVER, WORKING WITH THE LOCAL SCHOOL DISTRICT.

SECONDLY, I THINK THAT THE PANDEMIC HAS SHOWN US THAT TELEHEALTH IS REALLY A POSSIBILITY IN A LOT OF AREAS.

AND PARTICULARLY PERHAPS IN MENTAL HEALTH COUNSELING.

AND THE INSURANCE NEEDS TO PAY MORE BROADLY FOR TELEHEALTH SESSIONS.

I HAVE A GOOD FRIEND WHO IS A SOCIAL WORKER WHO IS A THERAPIST AND SHE, FOR EXAMPLE, IS WORKING WITH SOMEBODY WHO WAS ELDERLY, WIDOWED, DEPRESSED, ALSO LIVED FAR OUT AND WASN'T IN THE RURAL AREA, DIDN'T HAVE ANY INTERNET CONNECTION.

SHE WAS TALKING WITH HIM BY PHONE AND THE INSURANCE COMPANY REFUSED TO PAY FOR THAT.

AND THE OTHER PART ATTACHED TO THIS IS WE NEED BETTER BROADBAND SERVICE IF WE ARE GOING TO INVEST MORE IN TELEHEALTH WHICH I THINK IS A GOOD IDEA.

>> TELEHEALTH SEEMS TO HAVE COME UP, PARTICULARLY WITH THE YOUNGER GENERATION.

THEY'RE MUCH MORE COMFORTABLE WITH IT.

ANIRBAN, WHAT IS YOUR SENSE OF HOW TO DEAL WITH THIS CHRIS SNIS.

>> ONE THING IS THAT INSURERS CANNOT CHARGE A HIGHER DEDUCTIBLE FOR HIGHER CO-PAY FOR MENTAL HEALTH THAN OTHER PHYSICAL HEALTH REASONS BUT ADVOCATES ARE STILL SEEING THAT THEY HOLD MUCH MORE STRINGENT RULES AND REGULATIONS.

THOSE CAN BE CHANGED WHERE IT IS EASILY ACCESSIBLE FROM THE DEMAND SIDE.

ONE OTHER STATISTIC THAT I FOUND WAS THAT THE NATIONAL INSTITUTE OF MENTAL HEALTH SAID SIX IN 10 PEOPLE WITH MENTAL HEALTH ILLNESS WILL NOT GET ANY TREATMENT.

SO ONE PART IS THE INSURANCE PART AND YES, THERE IS TREMENDOUS AMOUNT OF BURNOUT BUT I ALSO WANT TO STRESS ON THE BROADER STRUCTURAL ISSUE.

THIS IS WHAT THE WORLD ORGANIZATION SAID.

IT SAID THE RISK FACTORS FOR MANY COMMON MENTAL DISORDERS ARE HEAVILY ASSOCIATED WITH SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC INEQUALITIES WHEREBY THE GREATER INEQUALITY, THE GREATER INEQUALITY IN THE RISK FOR DOING SOMETHING HARMFUL TO YOU IT CAN GO SIDE BY SIDE.

WE NEED LIVABLE WAGE.

LIKE THE PERSON WHO SPOKE TO THE NEW YORK TIMES, HIGHER PAY LITERALLY SAVES LIVES.

THERE IS A SHORT-TERM COMPETENCE WE CAN DO BY MAKE CAN IT ABSOLUTELY POSSIBLE-- IMPOSSIBLE FOR INSURANCE TO MAKE IT MORE STRINGENT OR MORE DIFFICULT BUT ALSO IN THE LONG-TERM TO SEE WHAT CREATES THIS PROLONGED ANGSTITE AND DEPRESSIONS AMONG PEOPLE WHO WORK, HOW SOCIAL INEQUALITY EXACERBATES THAT SITUATION AND REMEDY THAT AS WELL.

THAT WOULD BE A LONG-TERM FIX.

>> INTERESTING THAT CALIFORNIA HAS A LAW THAT INSURERS HAVE TO MAKE SURE MENTAL HEALTH APPOINTMENTS ARE AVAILABLE EVERY TWO WEEKS, ALTHOUGH AGAIN THAT'S PROBABLY A STAFFING ISSUE.

SINCE IT'S THANKSGIVING, WE ARE GOING PRACTICE GRATEFULNESS THIS WEEK AND WE HAVE DECIDED NOT TO GIVE OUT Fs BUT TO GIVE OUT ONLY As AND WHAT WE ARE GRATEFUL FOR.

SO KRISTI.

>> I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S MANY OF THEIR ACTIONS, MOST RECENTLY THE MOVE TO BLOCK FEDERAL OIL AND GAS DRILLING IN VARIOUS AREAS OF THE WEST, IN PARTICULAR THE RADIUS AROUND NEW MEXICO WHICH IS A WONDERFUL PLACE AND ONE OF THE NATION'S OLDEST AND MOST CULTURALLY SIGNIFICANT NATIVE AMERICAN SITES.

>> ANIRBAN?

>> MY A GOES TO ALL THE VINYL RECORD LOFERS WHO HAVE MADE IT THE HIGHEST SELLING PHYSICAL MEDIUM FOR THE LAST COUPLE OF YEARS.

VINYL SALES HAVE SEEN AN ASTRONOMICAL GROWTH AND A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE ARE BUYING RECORDS.

MOST COME WITH A DIGITAL DOWNLOADABLE COPY SO YOU CAN HAVE THE C.D.

WITH THE RECORD AND AS THE HOLIDAY SEASON ENSURES, AS THANKSGIVING DEBATES HEAT UP, WE HOPE WE CAN KEEP CALM AND LISTEN TO MORE VINYL RECORDS.

>> I THINK THAT'S HAPPENING AT YOUR HOUSE BECAUSE YOU HAVE A COLLECTION OF HOW MANY VINYLS?

>> ABOUT 1500.

>> TARA YOUR A.

>> AN A SAYING THANK YOU TO THE STUDENTS OF THE HBC NEWS, ESPECIALLY THOSE AT HOWARD UNIVERSITY FOR CONTINUING TO PROTEST THE HORRIBLE LIVING CONDITIONS ON SOME OF THE HBCU CAMPUSES AND FORCING THE ADMINISTRATIONS TO ACTUALLY RESPOND.

WHILE CERTAINLY I UNDERSTAND THAT THE ADMINISTRATIONS ARE ALWAYS AWARE OF IMPACT OF NEGATIVE STEREOTYPES ON HBCUs, HOWARD, LIKE MANY HBCUs, SPENT MORE TIME TRYING TO HIDE THE PROBLEM THAN THEY DID TRYING TO FIX SOME REALLY SERIOUS PROBLEMS.

SO I'M GRATEFUL FOR THE STUDENTS STICKING IT OUT AND FORCING THE ADMINISTRATION TO RESPOND.

>> THERE IS PLENTY OF FOOD ON MY TABLE EVERY NIGHT AND SO MY GRATEFULNESS TO WEEK IS TO THOSE CHURCH, MOSQUES, SYNAGOGUES, THE UNIONS, ALL THOSE GROUPS WHO HAVE PITCHED IN AND DOUGH THAT ITED MONEY OR DONATEDDED TIME TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE FOOD BASKETS AND THAT THERE ARE TURKEY AND ALL THE FRIMMING TRIMMINGS AEVERYONE'S TABLE IN OUR AREA.

THANK YOU.

AND THANK YOU FOR WATCHING.

PLEASE LET US KNOW IF YOU HAVE COMMENTS ON THE TOPICS WE'VE DISCUSSED TONIGHT YOU CAN WRITE US AT THE ADDRESSES ON THE SCREEN AND IF YOU MISS THE SHOW ANY FRIDAY NIGHT, WELL, IT REPEATS ON SATURDAY AFTERNOONS AT 5:30, YOU CAN FIND US ALSO ONLINE ANY TIME AT WCNY.

HAPPY THANKSGIVING AND GOOD NIGHT.