>>> I'M NOT SURE WHEN THE EDITORRINGS AT MERRIAM-WEBSTER PLAN TO UNVEIL THE ANNUAL LIST OF NEW WORDS BUT I'M GUESSING IT WILL INCLUDE WOKE.

AS WE'VE ALL COME TO UNDERSTAND WOKE IS AN ADJECTIVE THAT MEANS BEING ATTUNED TO ISSUES SUCH AS DISCRIMINATE DISCRIMINATION AND IN QUIETLY.

SOME LAWMAKERS PREFER A VARIANT SPELLING, ESG.

I'M JON SCHWANTES AND ON THIS WEEK'S SHOW WE'LL WADE INTO THE GROWING DEBATE OVER ESG OR ENVIRONMENTAL, SOCIAL AND GOVERNANCE.

HOW IF IT ALL DOES SOCIAL ACTIVISM FACILITY INTO 21ST CENTURY CAPITALISM.

INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

>>> SOME CONSERVATIVE POLICY MAKERS VIEW ZUCKERBERG AS AN ALTERNATIVE SPELLING OF WOKE.

IN ORDER THEIR EYES EVEN SPEAKING COMPRISES ONLY THREE LETTERS IT'S MOST DEFINITELY A FOUR LETTER WORD.

HERE TO EXAMINE HOW GOOD CORPORATE CITIZENSHIP BECAME SUCH A CONTROVERSIAL THING OUR REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE ETHAN MANNING OF LOGAN SPORT CHAIR OF THE HOUSE PUBLIC POLYCOMMITTEE.

DEMOCRATIC RIVER ED DELANEY OF INDIANAPOLIS, ASSISTANT DEMOCRATIC CAUCUS CHAIR.

STATE TREASURER DANIEL ELLIOTT AND KEVIN BRINEGAR.

PRESIDENT AND CEO OF THE INDIANA CHAMBER OF COMMERCE.

THANK YOU FOR BEING HERE.

ETHAN MANNING START WITH YOU.

LAST YEAR YOU INTRODUCED LEGISLATION THAT WOULD PUT CONTROLS ON THOUSAND THE INDIANA PUBLIC EMPLOYEE RETIREMENT FUND SYSTEM COULD IN VEST AND IT'S BACK THIS YEAR.

WHAT IS THAT YOU'RE TRYING THE ACCOMPLISH?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THE COALITION IS MUCH BROODER SO WE'RE FOCUSED ON FOSSIL FUSE, BOARDER SECURITY -- I FORGOT THE FOURTH PART -- >> FIREARMS AND ALSO IN AGRICULTURE.

AN AMENDMENT TO TAKE ANYTHING YOU COULDN'T REMEMBER OUT OF THE BILL.

>> JUST HAD A RIB PERRY MOMENT BUT WHAT WE NEED TO DO IS MAKE SURE OUR PUBLIC RETIREMENT FUND ARE NOT GOING TOWARD ESG INVESTING, WE NEED STREAMS AND ACCOUNTABILITY WHEN WE TALK ABOUT PROXY VOTEING.

AND THEN WE NEED TO PURR BACK AGAINST THE RADICAL LEFT WHEN WE TALK ABOUT ENVIRONMENTAL POLICY THAT ARE HARMING OUR ECONOMY WITH THE GREEN NEW DEAL CAN WE NEED TO MAKE SURE THAT WE HAVE THE POWER TO POWER OUR ECONOMY.

>> THIS IS NEAR AND DEAR TO YOUR HEART AGAIN, DID IT LAST YEAR AND BACK AGAIN THIS YEAR.

WHAT IS THE MOTIVATION?

HAVE CONSTITUENTS COME TO YOU AND CALLED YOU AND SAID YOU REALLY GOT TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THIS ESG INVESTING?

I DON'T THINK IT'S ON THE TOP CONCERNS OF A LOT OF HOOSIERS BUT WHAT'S DRIVING YOU?

IS IT CONSTITUENT CONCERN OUR NATIONAL AGENDA?

>> IT'S BOTH, I'VE HAD CONSTITUENTS REACH OUT TO ME CONCERNED ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

IT'S BECOME A MUCH BIGGER TOPIC OF CONVERSATION OVER THE LAST YEAR, AND PART OF IT AGAIN IS PUSHING BACK BECAUSE THE FOLK WHO ARE PUSHING ESG AND TRYING TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST BUSINESSES THEY'RE SNOT NOT SHY ABOUT THIS SO WE'VE RECEIVED THOUSANDS OF E-MAILS AND CALLS TO OUR CAULK IN SUPPORT OF THIS MEASURE.

>> SOME FROM INDIANA, BECAUSE AGAIN THIS IS A NATIONAL TALKING POINT FOR SOME NATIONAL GROUPS AND WE SHOULD SET THE STAGE THAT A FEW THE STATES, TEXAS, VIRGINIA, OKLAHOMA HAVE INSTITUTED SUCH LIMITATIONS AND I THINK I SAW 20 STATES ARE -- IN TERMS OF LOOKING AT THIS.

IS IT HIGH ON YOUR LIST OF CONSTITUENT CONCERNS ED DELANEY?

>> I DON'T WAKE UP EVERY DAY THINKING THE INDIANA GENERAL ASSEMBLY CAN MOVE THE MARKETS.

AND MEANWHILE WE WOULD LOSE $6.7 BILLION FROM OUR PENSION.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S WHAT HE WANTS TOO?

>> IT'S THE IMPLICATION, HE SAYS WE WANT TO CHANGE THIS, WHY ARE WE DOING IT?

WE'RE DOING IT TO CHANGE THE NATIONAL ECONOMY AND WE CAN'T DO THAT.

IT WOULD COST US $6.7 BILLION OVER TEN YEARS TO MAKE THIS CHALLENGE.

THAT'S THE ESTIMATE -- AND IT'S REALLY FROM INPERS, THE SOURCE OF IS THAT ESTIMATE BUT WE'VE SPENT I THINK 25 YEARS BUILDING UP OUR PENNING FUNDS GETTING TO NEARLY FULLY FUNDING THEM, SOMETIMES WE'VE GONE CRAZY TO DO THAT AND NOW WE'RE GOING IN THE OTHER DIRECTION FOR REASONS I DON'T UNDERSTAND.

>> THE NOTION IS OVER A TEN YEAR PERIOD WE WOULD BE LOOKING AT FIVE AND CHANGE PERCENT VERSUS SICK AND CHANGE PERCENT PRESUMABLY BECAUSE WE ARE NOT GETTING THE MOE SKILLED OR MOST ADEPT MONEY MANAGERS.

>> WE TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS A YEAR FOR INVESTMENT ADVISERS AND WHAT WE'RE SAYING IS DON'T LET THEM DO THEIR JOB, LET THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY DO THE JOB.

WE'RE TRYING TO PUT OUR THUMB ON THE SCALE.

WHEN YOU DO THAT YOU HELP SOMEBODY AND YOU HURT SOMEBODY SO YOU MIGHT HELP THE COAL INDUSTRY BUT YOU'RE GOING TO HURT OUR RETIREE AND OUR STATE BUDGET.

WE PAY PAY THAT MONEY BY THE WAY SO WE HAVE TO PAY THEM THOSE PENSIONS WHETHER WE LOSE MUST BE OR NOT.

>> YOU'RE NEW AT YOUR JOB -- >> SIX WEEK.

>> YOU RAN ON THIS ISSUE.

I WAS LOOKING AT YOUR PLATFORM AND THERE'S TRANSPARENCY, THERE'S ALL KINDS OF.

>> CYBER-SECURITY.

>> THE MORE TRADITIONAL SORT OF PLATFORM PLANKS BUT WHY DID YOU RUN OVEN IS THIS AND WHY DO YOU FEEL COMPELLED THIS IS AN ISSUE WHOSE TIME AS COME?

>> I'M GOING TO ACTUALLY AGREE WITH REPRESENTATIVE DELANEY THAT NOBODY SHOULD BE PUTTING THEIR THUMB ON THE SCALE.

I'M A SMALL BUSINESS OWN OWNER, UNTIL SIX WEEKS AGO THAT'S WHAT I'VE DONE FOR THE LAST 15 YEARS AND I BELIEVE IN THE FREE MARKET.

THE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW IS THE FREE MARKETS ALREADY PEOPLE PUTTING THUMBS ON INSTANCE WE TALK ABOUT -- OBVIOUSLY WE DON'T WANT TO BE PUTTING THE THUMB ON THE SCALES BUT WHAT WE HAVE RIGHT NOW ARE LARGE INVESTMENT FIRMS THAT ARE PUTTING THEIR THUMBS TON SCALE.

SO WE TALK ABOUT IS IT NUMBERS, THE 6.25 AND THE $6.7 BILLION EXCEPT FOR ONE FACT JULES THAT'S A RED DAWN STYLE OF ASSUMPTION, THAT'S THE ASSUMPTION IS THAT EVERY INVESTMENT MANAGER WOULD WALK OUT THE DOOR.

I'VE SPOKEN TO THOSE INVESTMENT MANAGERS, THEY'RE NOT WALKING, IN FACT I'VE SPOKEN TO MULTIPLE STATE TREASURERS AND THIS WERE ALL THREATENED WITH THE SAME THREATS AND NONE OF THOSE INVESTMENT MANAGERS HAVE LEFT.

NOW LET'S GO BACK TO THE $6.3 MILLION WHICH IS WHAT OUR INVESTMENTS HAVE BEEN TRACKING THE LAST TEN YEARS, INTERESTINGLY ENOUGH A STUDY BY UCLA YOU END UP WITH A 6.3 PER BUT IF YOU'RE USING NONFACTORS JUST PLAIN PECUNIARY FACTOR THAT SAYS I'M ONLY FOCUSING ON THE BOTTOM LINE YOU GOING TO IT'S GET AN 8.9 PERCENT RETURN.

>> YOU'RE TALKING PROJECTION, BUT LET'S LOOK AT HISTORY BECAUSE THAT'S A GOOD GUIDE TOO.

TEXAS ONE OF THE FIRST STATES TO GO DOWN THIS PANT AND IN THE FIRST SIB MONTHS THERE APPEARED TO BE AN IMPACT OF HALF A BILLION DOLLARS -- >> THAT STUDY WAS FUNDED BY A RADICAL LEFT WIN GROUP.

>> DONALD TRUMP'S ALMA MALTED MATTER BUT DONE BY THE UNIVERSITY OF PENNSYLVANIA.

>> WHAT THAT THEY'RE TALKING ABOUT IS THEY WILL USE THE FINANCIAL SERVICES MARKETS TO I LIMB THAT IT FOSSIL FUELS BUT THAT STUD WAS ON BONDED WHICH THIS BILL DOES NOT PERTAIN TO.

>> ALL RIGHT KEVIN, WHAT EXPLAINS YOUR OPPOSITION?

>> OUR OPPOSITION COMES FROM A LARGELY OUR BANKING MEMBER WHO DON'T WANT TO BE CAUGHT IN THE MIDDLE OF ALL THIS, AND THIS BILL AS IT STANDS, WE UNDERSTAND THERE'S AN AMENDMENT COMING WHICH PERHAPS REPRESENTATIVE MANNING WILL WANT TO TALK ABOUT.

>> LIKE THE SECOND COMING THAT PACED THIS AMENDMENT.

>> IT'S MUCH ANTICIPATED -- NO I'M NOT SAYING THAT OBVIOUSLY BUT IT'S HIGHLY ANTICIPATED BUT SECTION EIGHT OF THE BILL, AND SECTION 11 AND -- IT SAYS THE FIDUCIARY SHALL DISCHARGE THE DUTIES SOLELY IN THE FINANCIAL INTERESTS OF THE PARTICIPANT AND BENEFITS OF THE PLUCK PENSION SYSTEM FOR THE EXCLUSIVE PURPOSE OF PROVIDING FINANCIAL BENEFITS AND DEFERRING REASONABLE EXPENSES, IF THE BILL STOPPED THERE WE WOULD BE FINE AND -- ESSENTIALLY CODIFIES THE POLICIES.

THAT'S WHY I SAY IT WOULD CODIFY THEIR EXISTING POLICIES AND WE WOULD BE FINE WITH THAT BUT THE CONFLICT OR IN CONSISTENCY COMES FROM THE NEXT SECTION THAT LAYS OUT ALL THE THINGS THEY'RE NOT RESPONSIBILITY TO IN VEST IN AND.

>> AND WE DEFINE ESG IN THE BILL BECAUSE IT'S SO SUBJECTIVE, AND WE HAVE TO MAKE IT SUNG SUBJECTIVE SO THIS THE BILL FINANCIAL RETURN TRUMPS ALL SO IF AN ZUCKERBERG FUND HAS THE BEST RETURN, LOWEST RISK AND LOWEST MANAGEMENT COST WE'RE GOING TO CITIZEN WITH AN ESG.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE LIST IT TENDSES TO BE THE APPLE AND MICROSOFT AND GREEN INDUSTRIES TEND TO BE AT THE TOP OF THE LIST -- >> IT DOESN'T SPEAK TO THOSE INDIVIDUAL COMPANIES, IT TALKS ABOUT WHAT AN INVESTMENT MANAGER DOES TO PUSH THE COMPANY TOWARDS THESE POLICIES.

>> BUT HERE'S WHAT I'M CONFUSED ABOUT, AND AGAIN AMENDMENTS MAY CHANGE THE WORDING BUT IF AN INDIANA BASED INVESTMENT HOUSE OR BANK MARKET PRODUCES OFFICERS ESG FUNDS UNDER THE BILL AS ORIGINALLY FILED IT DOESN'T MATTER IF CAN RETURN IS 100 PERCENT BETTER YOU CAN'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM.

>> NO, THAT'S NOT RIGHT, WE CAN DO BUSINESS WITH THEM BECAUSE IS IT TREASURY OF STATE UNDER THE BILL WOULD POINT TO A BANKS OR INVESTMENT MANAGER AND SAY YOU'RE VIOLATING THIS, THAT INFORMATION GOES TO THE IN PERS BOARD -- >> BUT THEORETICALLY IF YOU BRING IN THE LETTER OF THE LAW THAT BANK WOULD BE IN PERSONA NON GRATA -- >> NO, NOT IF THEY HAVE THE HIGHEST RETURN AND LOWEST RISK.

>> IT DOESN'T SAY THAT.

IT MAKES IT CLEAR THAT UNLESS THEY PROFESS YOUR CREED OF INVESTING THEY CAN'T ADVISE, AND IF THEY ADVISE A STATE WE CAN'T USE THEM.

THAT'S THE WAY YOUR BILL READS.

>> YOU KNOW WHAT YOU'VE DONE ABSOLUTELY AMAZING ME.

I'M SITTING NEXT TO KEVIN -- WHAT HAS HAPPENED TO YOU PEOPLE?

I'M SERIOUS ABOUT THAT.

>> YOU'RE READING TOO MUCH INTO OUR SEATING ARRANGEMENT.

BUT NEVERTHELESS THE POINT IS WELL TAKEN.

>> I'M CONCERNED THAT WE DON'T READ IT THE WAY YOU JUST EXPLAINED.

>> SOMETHING WE NEED TO RECOGNIZE THAT'S WHERE THIS -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S CLARIFIES THAT CAN BE MADE -- CLARIFICATIONS THAT ARE BEING MADE.

WE HAVEN'T READ IT THAT WAY, OUR OFFERINGS HASN'T READ IT THAT WAY, I'VE HAD OUR ATTORNEYS LOOK LIEU THROUGH IT AND I'VE HAD MUM OTHER ATTORNEYS LOOK AT IT THAT WAY AND MOST OF THE PEOPLE WHO ARE READING IT THIS WAY ARE FOLKS LIKE BLACK RACK WHO SAYS THIS IS WHAT THIS MEANS AND YOU NEED TO BE AFRAID OF THIS AND THAT'S WHAT SCARE ME.

I'VE BEEN IN LOCAL GOVERNMENT FOR TEN YEARS, I DIDN'T EVEN KNOW ABOUT THISSISH UNTIL I STARTED TO RUN FOR TREASURER AND I FIRST FOUND OUT ABOUT THIS BY A LOCAL GUN SHOP, A WELL AREN'TED ORGANIZATION, AND THEN ELECTROPHEROGRAMS I STARTED GETTING E-MAILS AND TEXTS, BECAUSE WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS BUSINESSES THAT ARE BEING TOLD BY LARGER BUSINESSES AND SOMETIMES BANKS, WITH WON'T DO BUSINESS WITH YOU BECAUSE WE DON'T LIKE WHO YOU ARE, WE DON'T LIKE AG BUSINESSES OR PROEM YUM BUSINESSES.

>> COULD IT BE THOUGH THAT AN INVESTMENT HOUSE OR ADVISER IS SAYING I'M LOOKING AT SOCIETAL TRENDs AND FOSSIL FUELS -- THEY WANTED TO MOVE AWAY FROM FOSSIL FUELS BECAUSE OF MARKET FORCES AND IT WAS THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY THAT SLOWED THEM DOWN.

>> I'M NEW HERE.

I'M NEW ON THE BOARD SO TO SPEAK BUT I'VE BEEN DOING ANY RESEARCH AND IF YOU START LOOKING -- IF YOU'RE LOOKING AT ACTUAL -- THE MARKET, THE MARKET DICTATES THAT FOCUS FOCUSING ON THE BOTTOM LINE THOSE TYPE OF COMPANY TEND TO NOT BE FOCUSING ON ESG RELATED IF YOU REMEMBERED FUNDS.

BLACK ROCK HAD 24 PERCENT LESS EARNINGS LAST YEAR AND THAT'S BECAUSE THEY SPECIFICALLY FOCUS ON 28 PERCENT OF THEIR STOCKS IN TECH, AND I'M A TECH GUY, I LOVE TEN BUT -- I AGREE.

BUT HERE'S THE OPPOSITE SIDE OF A THAT.

THEY HAD VERY MINIMAL EXTREMITY IN ENERGY AND ENERGY IS -- CHEAP ENERGY.

>> BLACK ROCK HAS BILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN OIL.

HATE THEM FOR IT.

>> BUT THEY HAVE TRADITIONAL OF DOLLARS OVER ALLOGYRIC YOU GUYS ARE GOING TO BE ON THE SAME SIDE TOO.

YOU SWITCH PLACES?

>> BLACK ROCK IS NOT A MEMBER OF OURS.

THE BANKER'S ASSOCIATION, OUR FRIENDS THERE WHO -- WHO ARE CONCERNED AND OPPOSED BECAUSE OF WHAT'S LAID OUT IN SECTION NINE AND IF THE GOAL IS -- AND I BELIEVE IT IS, WHAT I JUST READ IN SECTION 8, WHY NOT STOP THERE?

BECAUSE THE INVESTORS WILL HAVE TO TAKE INTO CONSIDERATION THE THINGS THAT ARE IN SECTION 9 IN ORDER TO MAXIMIZE THE RETURNS AND MINIMIZE THE RISK FOR THE PENSION.

>> CAN I ADDRESS THE POINT YOU MADE?

YOU SAID THE PHONES FROM THE INDIANA BANKER'S ASSOCIATION AND BANKERS WHILE THE LOBBYING COMPANY -- THE LOBBY ARM, YES THROUGH POSE POSED TO THIS -- >> NO I TALKED TO INDIVIDUAL BANKING MEMBER AND THEY'RE CONCERNED -- >>> SEEMS LIKE THEY'RE TESTING AN EGG -- WHAT STATEMENT STATE AM I IN IN?

IS OUR PENSION FUNDS DOING THIS?

>> LET'S SAY THEORETICALLY THAT IS ENACT AS IS AND THERE'S A DISPUTE OVER WHAT IT MEANS, THAT MEANS IT GOES TO LITIGATION IN STATE COURT.

>> NO IT GOES TO THE STATE TREASURER -- >> I'M TRYING THE GET TO THIS QUESTION HERE AND THAT IS COURTS LOOK AT LEGISLATIVE SEAT BELT, THAT'S THE FIRST LINE OF DEFENSE, SO LET'S MAYBE CLEAR WHAT IS YOUR LEGISLATIVE INTENT, WHAT HE'S WORRIED ABOUT OR ARE YOU SAYING HERE AND NOW SO IS IT COURTS CAN SUBPOENA THIS TRANSCRIPT, YOU HAVE NO INTENTION OF KNOCKING OUT INDIANA BANKS OR INVESTMENT HOUSE THAT HAVE MARKET ESG TURNEDS AS LONG AS THEIR KICKING BUTT.

>> MY INTEND WOULD BE IF GOOD TARIFFS WE SHOULD NOT BE DOING BUSINESS WITH BANKS WHO DISCRIMINATE BASED ON THE FACTORS WE HAVE IN THE BILL BUT IF FOR SOME REASON THEY'RE THE ONLY PEOPLE WHO ARE CAPABLE OF DOING THIS TO PROVIDE THE HIGHEST RETURN WE CAN STICK WITH THEM.

THAT'S WHAT THE BILL SAYS RIGHT NOW.

>> IF YOU HAD A BANK IN SE COAL COUNTRY AND SAID WE WANT TO SETTLE UP A FUND TO HELP OUR CUSTOMER BASE SO WE'RE GOING TO INVEST IN FOSSIL FUELS AND SECOND8 TERRITORY AND WE'RE GOING TO INVEST IN ANNALS MANUFACTURERS AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A FUND -- I DON'T KNOW -- >> THE ED DELANEY FUND.

>> WOULD YOU HAVE A PROBLEM WITH THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> BUT WAIT.

>> ETHAN, THE YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT DISCRIMINATING, THEY'RE IN THE BUSINESS OF DISCRIMINATING.

>> IF THAT FUND DIDN'T PERFORM WELL WOULD YOU CARE?

>> IF IT DIDN'T PERFORM WELL WE WOULDN'T DO BUSINESS WITH THEM BECAUSE WE HAVE THE FIDUCIARY OBLIGATION -- >> SO THE MARKET TAKES CARE OF THAT -- >> YOU WOULDN'T HAVE AN ISSUE IF THE ED DELANEY FUND THAT SOME INDIANA BANNENINGS AND HOOSIERS INVESTED IN SUPPORTED CAUSES THAT ARE NEAR AND DEAR TO YOUR HEART.

THAT'S OTHER THAN OKAY WITH YOU?

>> I GUESS THIS WHOLE KNOWING OF TIPPING THE SCALES ISN'T IS THAT WHAT STATE GOVERNMENT AND FEDERAL GOVERNMENT DOES?

WE LOOK AT TAX POLICY IT'S WRITTEN TO ENABLE FAMILIES TO SEND THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL.

IN INDIANA YOU GET TAX CREDITS FOR WINTERIZING YOUR HOME OR ELECTRIC VEHICLE.

WE DO A LOT OF THINGS AS GOVERNMENT -- I SAY WE, YOU DO A LOT OF THINGS AS GOVERNMENT TO INFLUENCE DECISION MAKING -- >> NO, THE FUTURE OF A PARTICULAR INDUSTRY IS NOT THE JOB OF OUR PENSION FUND.

THE FUTURE OF OUR HOODS HOOSIERS THAT'S THEIR JOB.

THE CURRENT SYSTEM ALLOWS THEM TO FOCUS ON THAT.

IF IN THE END THE INDUSTRIES CHANGE THAT'S SOMEBODY ELSE'S PROBLEM.

WE CAN'T MOVE THE NATIONAL ECONOMY.

OUR PENSION PUNCHES ARE DESIGNED TO TAKE CARE OF OUR PENSIONERS.

>>> IF THEY SHY AWAY FROM ESG, AND THEY SHY AWAY AND THE RETURN IS LESS ARE ARE THEY THEN LIABLE FOR -- FOR BREAKING THEIR FIDUCIARY TRUST?

>> I HAVE A FIDUCIARY DUTY TO HELP MY PENSIONERS AND I'M NOT GOING TO ADVOCATE IT BECAUSE SOME GROUP DOESN'T LIKE IT.

>> THAT'S A NATIONAL GROUP THAT DOES A LOT OF -- >> WE'LL PROTECT THE PENSIONERS BY NOT ARTIFICIALLY ELIMINATING INVESTMENT OPTIONS.

WE HAVE AN ENERGY COMPANY, ONE OF THEIR OPERATIONINGS IS A COAL MINE.

THEY USED TO DO BUSINESS WITH SIX BANKS, AND THEY HAVE A MARKET CAP IN THE BILLIONS OF DOLLARS, VERY LOW DEBT AND A LOT OF CASH.

WHEN THEY STARTED THEIR NEW REVOLVER FOUR OF THOSE SIX BANKS DROPPED THEM SIMPLY BECAUSE THEY'RE A COAL COMPANY.

THAT'S DISCRIMINATION.

>> THAT'S NOT A BOYCOTT, THAT'S A BAD INVESTMENT.

>> IF YOU LOOK AT THE FINANCIAL FACTORS -- >> ARE YOU GOING TO TELL THE BANK HOW TO DECIDE TO INVEST?

>> COAL PRICES ARE ABOUT FOUR TIMES WHAT THEY WERE 18 TO 24 MONTHS, WE SAW HEADLINES LAST YEAR INDIANA RATE PAYERS PAYING 15 TO 18 PERCENT MORE ON THEIR UTILITY BILLS BECAUSE OF FUEL ADJUSTMENT PRICES SO YOU CAN DRAW A DIRECT LINE FROM ESG BOYCOTTS TO HIGHER ENERGY PRICES FOR HAS HOOSIERS RIGHT NOW.

>>> THE AMENDMENT PROGRESSION MAY RABIDER THIS MEDICAL SCHOOL BUT THAT DETERMINATION, THAT BILL, IF IT WERE ENACTED, YOUR MEMBERSHIP WHAT DO THEY SAY IS GOING TO HAPPEN?

DO THEY LOSE BUSINESS?

DO THEY HAVE TO LEAVE THE STATE.

COUPLENS ENGINE COMPANY WHICH IS ON THE DOW LIST, DOW JONES HAS A SIB SID AREA THAT TRACKS COMPANIES WITH THEIR COMMITMENTS.

COUPLE MINIS ENERGY COMPANY IS NUMBER TWO AND IT'S BEHIND APPLE OR MICROSOFT WHICH IS QUITE AN ACCOMPLISHMENT.

ELILYLY IS IN THE TOP 60.

>> HYDROGEN IS THE FUEL OF THE FUTURE.

>> SO DO THEY TELL YOU THEY'RE GOING TO LEAVE THE STATE?

HE TALKED ABOUT THE RED DAWN SCENARIO.

WHAT HAPPENS IF THIS IS ENACTED?

>> THE CONCERN IS THAT YOU'VE GOT GOVERNMENT PICKING WINNERS AND LOSERS GETTING INVOLVED, THE OTHER CONCERN WHICH WE HAVEN'T TALKED ABOUT IS -- >> WE CAN TALK ABOUT IT NOW.

>> THE TREASURER OF STAY SHALL FORWARD THIS CHAPTER, WE LIKE DAN, WE ENDORSED HIM WHEN HE RAN FOR STATE REPRESENTATIVE BUT IT GOES TON THE SAY IF THE TREASURER HAS REASONABLE CAUSE TO BELIEVE THE PERSON HAS ENGAGED IN, IS ENGAGING IN OR IS GOING TO GET ENGAGED IN SO YOU CAN GET INVESTIGATED FOR THINGS YOU HAVEN'T DONE YET IN A VIOLATION OF THIS CHAPTER THEN THE TREASURER CAN LAUNCH AN INVESTIGATION AND REQUIRE RECORDS AND ALL THIS, AND MAKE A RECOMMENDATION AND KIND OF BE JUDGE AND JURY HERE.

>> WHAT ABOUT THIS?

YOU'RE THE ONE IN THE HOT SEAT, I KNOW YOU'RE DOING YOUR HOMEWORK.

>> THE TREASURER'S OFFICE HAS EVER DONE.

>> 17 EMPLOYEES.

>> YOU'RE THINKING THE ATTORNEY GENERAL SHOULD DO IT?

>> TO YOUR POINT JOHN IF IF TREASURER NEEDS HELP THEY CAN ASK THE ATTORNEY GENERAL.

>> BUT LET'S GET BEYOND THIS IDEA OF.

>> ARE YOU EQUIPPED TO DO THAT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

SO FOR ONE THING -- YOU KNOW WHAT, HERE'S THE THING.

I HAVE SOME OF THE MOST COMMENT EMPLOYEES IN STATE GOVERNMENT.

I HAVE SOME FOLKS WHO ARE ABSOLUTELY AMAZING SO YOU HAVE THE UTMOST CONFIDENCE IN MY PEOPLE.

NOW, THE REAL REALITY IS THIS.

MOST OF THIS INFORMATION IS IT PUBLICLY AVAILABLE.

WE KEEP TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING -- TODAY WAS MY FIRST DAY MEETING RIFF DELANEY, HE AND I AGREE, NOBODY SHOULD BE PUTTING THUMBS ON SCALES, I DON'T THINK GOVERNMENT SHOULD AND I DON'T THINK BIG BUSINESS SHOULD BUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU HAVE BIG -- LARGE TRILLION DOLLAR CORPORATIONS WHO ARE PUSHING BACK AND THEY'RE SAYING HE'S WHAT WE'RE GOING TO DO AND TAKING THE DECISION AWAY.

THE PERSON I'M MOST CONCERNED AWE IS THAT PENSIONER.

I'M FROM A WORKING CLASS FAMILY SO WHEN I LOOK AT MY FAMILY THE ONLY WAY THEY GET BY IS BY A VERY MEAGER PENSION, SO MY POINT IS WHEN I LOOK AT THIS WHEN I SAY WE CAN DO THIS BUT THE REALITY IS SOMEBODY HAS TO DRAW IT OUT TO THE LIGHT SO PEOPLE CAN KEY IT.

>> WE'RE NOW TALKING ABOUT IT, BRINGING IT TO LIGHT.

UNFORTUNATELY WE'RE OUT OF TIME NOW.

I APPRECIATE YOUR PASSION AND YOUR INTEREST AND YOUR KNOWLEDGE.

AGAIN MY GUESTS HAVE BEEN REPUBLICAN REPRESENTATIVE ETHAN MANNING, DEMOCRATIC REPRESENTATIVE ED DELANEY, STATE TREASURER DANIEL ELLIOTT AND KEVIN.

OF THE INDIANA STATE COMMERCE.

I'M NOW FOR OUR WEEKLY CONVERSATION WITH COMMENTATOR ED FEIGENBAUM AND AS I'VE ALWAYS SAID YOU CAN'T SPELL EDWARD FEIGENBAUM ESQUIRE WITHOUT ESG.

AFTER THAT DISCUSSION, I GUESS WE CAN EITHER ZERO IN ON SOME FINE POINTS OR WE CAN MAYBE COME BACK AND LOOK AT A BIGGER PERSPECTIVE.

YOU DRIVE, MY BRAIN IS STILL SPINNING.

>> LET'S GO TO THE 40,000-FOOT LEVEL.

>> FAIR ENOUGH.

>> IT'S INTERESTING THAT LEGISLATORS THINK THAT AGENCIES WANT TO DRIVE THE SYSTEM, WANT TO DRIVE THE STATE, FLY THE STATE BUT AGENCIES REALLY WANT DIRECTION FROM THE LEGISLATURE.

TEY DON'T GENERALLY OPERATE IN A ROGUE MANNER, THEY DON'T GENERALLY TRY TO COME SEVEN WITH THEIR OWN LAWS.

THEY TRY TO FILL IN THE HOLES WHERE THE LEGISLATURE HAS GIVEN THEM THE AUTHORITY BUT THEY WANT DIRECTION AND THIS IS SOMETHING THAT COULD GIVE THEM DIRECTION SO THEY DON'T GO ROGUE.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME YOU HAVE SERVE PROFESSIONS, DOCTORS, LAWYERS, FINANCIAL PROFESSIONAL THAT HAVE FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITIES TO THEIR PROFESSIONS AND SOMETIME THOSE CONFLICT WITH SEDATE LAW AND THEY'VE GOT TO MAKE DECISIONS.

WE HAVE TALKED ON THIS SHOW BEFORE?

YEARS PAST ABOUT SOME LEGISLATORS WHO ARE ATTORNEYS AND THEY SAY THAT WE DON'T HAVE TO FILL OUT THE PERSONAL FINANCIAL DISCLOSURE AND DISCLOSE OUR CLIENTS BECAUSE THAT'S SUPPOSED TO BE CONFIDENTIAL.

SO THERE ARE CERTAIN KINDS OF FIDUCIARY RESPONSIBILITIES TO THE PROFESSION THAT SOME OF THESE PROFESSIONALS HAVE THAT MAY CONFLICT WITH LAWS AND THEY'RE LOOKING FOR THE DIRECTION.

>> THERE A WAY TO CRAFT LEGISLATION THAT ACCOMPLISHES WHAT ETHAN MANNING WANTS TO ACCOMPLISH AND IS NOT OPEN TO ENDLESS LITIGATION AND MISINTENTION AS PEOPLE TRY TO SAY WHAT IS ESG.

>> SURE BUT IT'S GOING TO BE FEEL GOOD LEGISLATION IN THE END.

WE'LL BE ABLE TO SAY THIS IS WHAT WE WANT TO DO BUT IT'S NOT GOING TO BE MANDATORY AND IF THEN JUSTIFY WHY THEY'RE DOING SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO BE OKAY.

>> AGAIN THAT'S SIMILAR TO WHAT WE EVER SEEN COME OUT OF THE SENATE WHICH SEEMINGINGLYILY IS MORE PALATABLE TO THE BANKER'S ASSOCIATION.

ALL RIGHT ED AS ALWAYS THANK YOU FOR YOUR IN SIGHT.

SEE YOU NEXT WEEK.

>>> CURRENTLY IF YOU'RE CARRYING TWO OUNCES OF MARIJUANA YOU COULD BE ARRESTED.

IS IT SOMETIME TIME FOR INDIANA TELOSESSEN LOSSEN CANNABIS LAWS?

ON THE NEXT INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

>>> THAT CONCLUDES THAT EDITION OF INDIANA LAWMAKERS.

I'M JON SCHWANTES AND ON BEHALF OF ED FEIGENBAUM AND WFYI PUBLIC MEDIA AND INDIANA'S OTHER PUBLIC BROADCASTING STATIONS I THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AND I INVITE YO TO VISIT WFYI.ORG FOR MORE STATE NEWS.

UNTIL NEXT WEEK,