PEOPLE ARE INCARCERATED AT MUCH HIGHER RATES THAN THEIR WHITE COUNTERPARTS NATIONALLY.

THE INCARCERATION RATE FOR BLACK PEOPLE IS 6 TIMES HIGHER.

AND IN ILLINOIS, THE RATE JUMPS TO 7.5, ACCORDING TO THE PRISON POLICY INITIATIVE, RACIAL DISPARITIES ARE JUST ONE OF THE MANY TOPICS DISCUSSED IN THE NEW BOOK DISMANTLING MASS INCARCERATION, A HANDBOOK FOR CHANGE.

AND JOINING US NOW WITH MORE IS ONE OF THE COAUTHORS MARIA HOLLOW AND PROFESSOR AT LOYOLA UNIVERSITY CHICAGO'S LAW SCHOOL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME HERE THAT OF COURSE MEANT WE SHOULD MENTION CO EDITED THIS BOOK AND CO-WROTE IT ALONG WITH 2 OTHER AUTHORS WHO ARE NOT WITH US RIGHT NOW.

BUT WE KNOW YES.

TELL US IF YOU WOULD ABOUT THE BOOK.

WHY DO I WANT TO BRING TOGETHER THIS COLLECTION OF IDEAS?

WELL, THANK YOU FOR ALLOWING US OR FOR ALLOWING ME TO BE AS YOU MENTIONED, I CAUGHT IT AT THIS WITH PROMOTE DARYA AND JAMES FOR MEN.

THE 3 OF US ARE FORMER PUBLIC DEFENDERS WASHINGTON, D.C., AND WHEN WE FIRST BEGAN WORKING AS PUBLIC I STARTED WORKING ABOUT 2 DECADES AGO AS A PUBLIC TENDER, THE CONVERSATION AROUND THE PRISON SYSTEM WAS VERY DIFFERENT THAN IT IS TODAY.

WE ARE PASSING LAWS TO LOCK UP MORE AND MORE PEOPLE FOR LONGER AND LONGER TIMES THE RATES OF DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT RACES IMPACTS WERE HIGHER.

EVEN THEN THE POLICIES WERE EVEN MORE PUNITIVE AND AS ICE FOR PROGRESS THROUGH MY CAREER AND I BEGAN TEACHING A COURSE ON MASS INCARCERATION.

THERE HAD BEEN A SHIFT IN THE CONVERSATION AND IN THE WE SAW THE LARGEST PROTESTS WORLDWIDE IN THE SUMMER OF 2020 AND THE CONVERSATION AROUND CRIMINAL JUSTICE AS A RACIAL JUSTICE AND CIVIL RIGHTS ISSUE REALLY BEGIN TO TAKE HOLD.

THE CONVERSATION WAS CHANGING AND WHAT WE WANTED TO SEE WHAT STUDENTS KEPT ASKING WAS WE UNDERSTAND THE CAUSES AND WE UNDERSTAND THE DESTRUCTION AND THE CONSEQUENCES CAUSED BY SYSTEM THAT LOCKS UP MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ACROSS THE UNITED STATES THAT KEEPS THEM FROM THEIR FAMILIES.

THAT ESSENTIALLY DESTROYS COMMUNITIES AND HEALTH AND EDUCATION AND FUTURES.

HOW CAN WE DO SOMETHING ABOUT IT?

WHAT CAN WE DO IN EACH OF KEEN TO IT?

FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE, WHAT WHETHER WE WERE GIVING TALKS ARE TALKING TO STUDENTS ARE THINKING ABOUT IT AND REFLECTING ON OUR CAREERS.

AND SO THIS BOOK IS AN EFFORT BOTH TO HIGHLIGHT THOSE THE CHANGES OF PEOPLE AND ORDINARY PEOPLE AND SYSTEM AFTERS INTERSECTIONS AROUND THE COUNTRY AND, YOU KNOW, TO TO SHOW WHAT WHAT IS POSSIBLE IT.

SO IT'S A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS, PAPERS, WRITINGS FROM YOU KNOW, MULTIPLE OTHER SUBJECT MATTER.

EXPERTS LIKE YOURSELVES BROKEN DOWN INTO 6 POLICE PROSECUTORS, PUBLIC DEFENDERS, JUDGES, PRISONS, AND OF COURSE, AFTERMATH.

HOW DID YOU ARRIVE AT THOSE SPECIFIC TOPICS AND IN DIVISIONS OF THE SYSTEM?

SURE.

YOU KNOW, BOTH BECAUSE OF OUR WORK AS PUBLIC DEFENDERS BECAUSE WE'VE BEEN WORKING WITHIN THE SYSTEM AND OUR SORT OF WORK WEEK THAT THE SYSTEM IS NOT ONE SYSTEM.

THERE ISN'T A SINGLE ACTOR OR PERSON OR BUREAUCRACY RESPONSIBLE FOR THE CREATION AND GROWTH OF THIS PRISON SYSTEM IN JAIL SYSTEM.

AND SO WHAT WE WANTED TO SHOW WAS THIS SYSTEM IS REALLY BROKEN DOWN ALL THE WAY FROM WHEN PEOPLE FIRST COME INTO CONTACT WITH THE CRIMINAL SYSTEM.

THAT'S USUALLY POLICE IN ARRESTS ALL THE WAY THROUGH AND PAST PRISON BECAUSE MOST PEOPLE CONTINUE TO FEEL WHAT PROFESSOR MICHELLE ALEXANDER CALLED CIVIL DEATH.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS VAST SYSTEM AFTERMATH, THE INABILITY TO GET JOBS, THE INABILITY TO VOTE IN THIS AND SOME STATE AND ELECTIONS IN SOME STATES AND IN FEDERAL, THE INABILITY EVEN APPLY TO GET TRAINING IN CERTAIN FIELDS OR FIND HOUSING.

AND SO WE WANTED TO SHOW REALLY THAT THIS IS NOT A SYSTEM THAT CAN BE DISMANTLED BY ANYONE PARTICULAR BUT THAT THERE ARE TO INTERVENE AT ALL ALONG THE STRUCTURES.

IN THE PROSECUTOR SECTION, YOU KNOW, TO 2019 FROM THE REFLECTIVE DEMOCRACY CAMPAIGN REVEALING 95% OF OUR COUNTRY'S PROSECUTORS ARE WHITE AND 76% MALE.

WHAT IS THE IMPACT OF THAT LACK OF DIVERSITY ON THE SYSTEM?

DEFENDANTS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION.

AS YOU MENTIONED, THERE THAT THE SYSTEM ITSELF DISPROPORTIONATELY IMPACTS BLACK AND BROWN PEOPLE, YOUNG BLACK MEN, BROWN PEOPLE.

AND WHEN THE ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT ACTORS IN THE SYSTEM, THE PERSON TASKED OR THE OFFICE TESTS WITH CHARGING PEOPLE ISN'T REPRESENTATIVE OF THE COMMUNITY.

AFTER ALL, THE PROSECUTOR SPEAKS IN COMMUNITIES.

NAME.

THIS IS HOW ACCOUNTABILITY FOR HARM HAS BEEN CONDUCTED IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE DON'T GET THE SORT OF DIVERSITY AND THE HOLISTIC AND ACCOUNTABILITY TO ADDRESS THOSE HARMS THAT WE MIGHT WANT TO IF WE HAD A MORE TOUGHER A DIVERSE, PROSECUTION TEAM.

TALK ABOUT THE SHIFT TO PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTORS WHICH POSSIBLE, YOU KNOW, EVERYWHERE IN THE COUNTRY, OBVIOUSLY FOR POLITICAL REASONS, INCLUDING, OF COURSE, COOK COUNTY STATE'S TURNING KIM FOXX, WHO HAS BEEN IDENTIFIED AMONG SORT OF A CROP OF A PROGRESSIVE TOP PROSECUTORS WHO POPPED UP IN THE LAST 8 ISH YEARS.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN TO BE A PROGRESSIVE PROSECUTOR?

I BUT THE BOOK TRIES TO HIGHLIGHT IS THAT THERE ISN'T ANY SINGLE METRIC AND THERE ISN'T ONE SORT OF CLEAN LITMUS TEST THAT SAYS THIS PERSON OR THIS OFFICE IS PROGRESSIVE IN THIS OFFICE IS NOT PROGRESSIVE.

QUESTION IS, LOOK AT THAT.

THE PROSECUTORS PLAYED THIS INCREDIBLY IMPORTANT ROLE IN OUR SYSTEM.

THEY ENGAGED IN PLEA DEALS.

THEY PROVIDE DISCOVERY.

THEY MAKE THE CHARGING DECISION WHICH ULTIMATELY LEADS OFTENTIMES AT THE SENTENCING DECISIONS.

AND SO CAN WE DO THIS IN A MORE JUST WAIT.

CAN WE ADDRESS HARMS AND AND SAFETY AND DO SO IN A MORE JUST WAY.

AND THIS IS WHERE ORDINARY PEOPLE PAYING ATTENTION THEIR LOCAL ELECTIONS AND ORGANIZING AROUND, YOU KNOW, IS THIS PERSON GOING TO REALLY CONSIDER LIKE LARRY KRASNER DID IN PHILLY IN A MEMO TO HIS STAFF, MASS INCARCERATION AS ONE OF THE HARMS THAT NEEDS TO BE REDUCED.

THERE ARE PROSECUTORS WHO ARE DOING SO AND AND IT'S NOT A STRAIGHT LINE.

YOU SEE STOPS AND STARTS AND SETBACKS.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE OTHER POINT PUSH BACK.

YES.

AND SOME OF THEM TAKE CRITICISM AND PUSH BACK.

AND I THINK THAT'S THE OTHER POINT.

THE SYSTEM WASN'T BUILT IN A YEAR OR 2 YEARS OR 3 YEARS.

IT'S BEEN DECADES AND DECADES GOING ALL THE WAY BACK.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO DISMANTLE IT IN A YEAR OR 2 YEARS OR 3 YEARS.

WE NEED TIME AND OR WITH ONE PUBLIC DEFENDER WITH THAT'S THAT.

THAT'S SORT OF THE POINT IN ILLINOIS.

WE ALSO KNOW THAT BLACKS ARE OVER REPRESENTED IN THE STATE'S PRISONS.

OF COURSE, THEY MAKE UP 14% OF THE STATE'S POPULATION.

BUT THEY MAKE UP MORE THAN HALF OF BOTH PRISON AND JAIL POPULATIONS ACROSS THE STATE ILLINOIS.

YOU ALSO COMPARE US TO OTHER COUNTRIES.

WHAT CAN WE LEARN FROM OTHER COUNTRIES?

PRISON SYSTEMS?

I THINK QUITE A IT WE WE HAVE A PIECE ON NORWAY AND THE PRISON SYSTEM IN ORO.

AND THERE'S A QUESTION ABOUT, YOU KNOW, IN THIS BOOK GRAPPLES WITH TENSIONS AND AND WE WELCOME THESE TENSIONS, WE DEBATED THEM OURSELVES AND WE WANT OTHER PEOPLE TO DEBATE THEM AS WELL.

IS ABOLITION THE RIGHT RESPONSE, PERHAPS OR SHOULD WE REFORM SOME OF THE CONDITIONS.

PEOPLE IN PRISON ARE LIVING UNDER INHUMANE CONDITIONS.

IN NORWAY, FOR INSTANCE, THERE HAS BEEN AN EFFORT TO PEOPLE BY THEIR NAMES TO LET THEM WEAR THEIR OWN CLOTHING.

THESE SEEM LIKE SMALL INCREMENTAL CHANGES.

BUT AS PEOPLE ARE GOING FROM HERE AND STUDYING THOSE TYPES OF CHANGES, WE CAN MAYBE LEARN SOMETHING FROM THEM.

HOW CAN WE APPLY THEM TO OUR LOCAL COMMUNITY?

HOW CAN WE HUMANIZE WHAT HAS BECOME AN INHUMANE AND OUTRAGEOUS?

SYSTEM?

YES, IT'S A NATION THAT IN MY COVERAGE OF PRISONS, I'VE HEARD A LOT ABOUT ABOUT THE WORK THAT THEY DO IN THEIR PRISON SYSTEMS ABOUT GET 10 SECONDS LEFT.

WHAT YOU WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY FROM THIS AND WHAT CAN PEOPLE DO THEMSELVES IF THEY WANT TO GET INVOLVED?

I THINK PEOPLE CAN DO I WHAT I WANT PEOPLE TO TAKE AWAY IS THAT THERE ARE PLACES TO GET IN EVERY PART, INCLUDING HOLDING BOOK CLUBS, LEARNING ABOUT TALKING AN ORGANIZING AROUND LOCAL ELECTIONS AND AND ALSO JUST STEPPING IN AND WATCHING WHAT'S GOING ON, PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NEWS LEARNING ABOUT THIS IS THE SYSTEM ATTENTION TO THE NEWS RIGHT