>>> NOW, NEXT, TO THE UNITED STATES FOR AN INTIMATE LOOK AT THE RELIGIOUS GROUP THAT HELPED PUT DONALD TRUMP IN THE WHITE HOUSE BACK IN 2016.

WHITE EVANGELICALS.

AS A POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT FOR NPR, REPORTER SARAH McCAMMON HAS DUG INTO THIS TRANSFORMATIVE GROUP AND ITS GROWING IMPACT ON RIGHT-WING AMERICAN POLITICS.

67 IN HER NEW BOOK, "THE EXVANGELICALS," SHE REVEALS WHY THEY'RE GROWING UP AND FLEEING THE FOLD.

>> THANKS, CHRISTIANE.

SARAH McCAMMON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT FASCINATED ME WHEN I READ YOUR BOOK, UNTIL I READ YOUR BOOK, I HAD NO IDEA OF YOUR BACKGROUND.

I THINK LIKE MOST CLASSICALLY TRAINED REPORTERS, YOU DON'T PUT YOURSELF AT THE FOREFRONT OF THE STORY.

HOW DID IT COME TO YOU THAT YOU HAD A STORY, THAT YOUR OWN SORT OF PERSONAL JOURNEY WAS PART OF A BIGGER PICTURE?

>> I MEAN, YOU'RE RIGHT.

AND I THOUGHT HARD ABOUT WHETHER I WANTED TO TALK ABOUT MY PERSONAL STORY.

I KIND OF ACCIDENTALLY FOUND MYSELF IN 2016 COVERING THE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE MOVEMENT THAT I CAME FROM, THAT SHAPED ME.

AND IN MANY WAYS, I WENT INTO JOURNALISM BECAUSE I WANTED TO KEEP MYSELF OUT OF THE STORY.

I HAD GROWN UP IN AN ENVIRONMENT WHERE A LOT OF PEOPLE AROUND ME, TO BE QUITE HONEST, HAD A LOT OF CONFIDENCE ABOUT THE ANSWERS.

AND I DIDN'T ALWAYS HAVE THAT SAME CONFIDENCE.

AND I THINK JOURNALISM IN RETROSPECT WAS PLACE WHERE I COULD ASK QUESTIONS AND LOOK FOR ANSWERS RATHER THAN TRY TO START WITH THEM.

I WANT TO SAY THAT FIRST OF ALL.

BUT WHEN I WAS ASSIGNED TO COVER THE 2016 ELECTION, I WAS ASSIGNED TO RECOVER THE REPUBLICAN PRIMARY BY NPR.

DONALD TRUMP OF COURSE WAS THROUGHOUT MOST OF THAT RACE THE FRONT-RUNNER, EVEN THOUGH A LOT OF PEOPLE DIDN'T BELIEVE HE WOULD REALLY STAY IN THAT POSITION.

AND SO MUCH OF THE STORY WOUND UP CENTERING AROUND THE WHITE EVANGELICAL BASE.

WOULD THEY ACCEPT THIS LIES THE MARRIED RATHER BRASH OFTEN CRASS PERSON WHO SEEMED SO ANTITHETICAL TO EVERYTHING THE MOVEMENT SAID IT STOOD FOR.

AND I DID THOSE STORIES.

OUR COLLEAGUES AND I THINK YOU DID SOME OF THOSE STORIES ABOUT HOW WERE WHITE EVANGELICALS RESPONDING TO TRUMP.

AND I COVERED THEM AS A JOURNALIST, AS WE ALWAYS DO.

BUT OVER TIME AS I THOUGHT MORE ABOUT THAT ELECTION AND THE WHITE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT AND SORT OF WATCHED THE AFTERMATH OF THAT ELECTION UNFOLD, I REALIZED THAT I HAD A STORY TO TELL, AND THAT I HAD BEEN SEEING THINGS THROUGHOUT THAT CAMPAIGN AND IN THE YEARS THAT FOLLOWED THAT RESONATED WITH AND REMINDED ME OF THINGS I SAW AS A CHILD.

SO THAT'S REALLY WHAT THIS BOOK COMES FROM IS A DESIRE TO INTEGRATE MY PERSONAL STORY WITH MY PROFESSIONAL STORY, TWO THINGS THAT RAN HEAD-LONG INTO ONE ANOTHER IN 2016.

>> SO TELL A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW YOU GREW UP.

>> EVANGELICALS REALLY STRESS A ONE-ON-ONE SORT OF RELATIONSHIP WITH GOD, A RELATIONSHIP WITH JESUS, LOOKING AT THE BIBLE, OPENING UP IT UP, READING IT FOR YOURSELF.

AND WE BELIEVE THAT WE HAD A MESSAGE THAT WE NEEDED TO SHARE WITH THE WORLD, AND WE HAD SORT OF A VISION FOR HOW THE FAMILY SHOULD BE, AND IN MANY CASES HOW THE COUNTRY SHOULD BE.

THAT WAS A LOT OF THE MESSAGING THAT I HEARD GROWING UP.

WE SAW MOST PEOPLE, FRANKLY, AS LOST, AS FALLEN.

WE BELIEVED THAT THERE ARE VERSES IN THE BIBLE THAT ONLY A NARROW PATH TO HEAVEN.

AND WE REALLY BELIEVED IN THAT, LITERALLY.

WE BELIEVED THAT MOST PEOPLE WERE NOT ON THAT PATH, AND IT WAS OUR JOB TO HELP THEM FIND IT.

AND SO FOR ME, AND I SHOULD SAY THAT EVANGELICALISM IS A VERY BIG MOVEMENT.

A LOT OF DIFFERENT TYPES OF CHURCHES FALL INTO THAT, AND IT'S -- THERE IS A SPECTRUM OF BELIEF AND PRACTICE.

SO WHAT I'M SAYING MIGHT NOT APPLY TO EVERYONE.

BUT I THINK MOST OF THE EVANGELICAL KIDS OF MY GENERATION GREW UP WITH SIMILAR INFLUENCES, A SIMILAR SORT OF CONCEPT OF THE WORLD, SIMILAR VIEWS OF HUMAN SEXUALITY, AND WE WERE TAUGHT THAT MARRIAGES BETWEEN A MAN AND A WOMAN, THAT THE RISE OF GAY RIGHTS IS SORT OF A SIGN OF THE FALLING AWAY OF THE COUNTRY FROM BEING A CHRISTIAN NATION, CERTAINLY ABORTION RIGHTS AND THE CHANGING ROLES OF WOMEN WERE PART OF THAT.

AND THAT WAS SOMETHING THAT MANY EVANGELICALS IN MY COMMUNITY WERE ACTIVELY FIGHTING AGAINST.

AND THAT MESSAGE WAS VERY MUCH TIED UP WITH THE SPIRITUAL AND RELIGIOUS MESSAGE THAT I WAS HEARING AND CHARGED IN MY CHRISTIAN SCHOOL, FOR EXAMPLE.

>> YOU TALKED ABOUT BEING AFRAID A LOT.

WHAT WERE YOU AFRAID?

SORT OF THIS SENSE OF LIVING WELL ON EARTH, BUT IT WAS ALSO INFUSED WITH FEAR.

WHAT WAS THE FEAR OF?

>> YOU KNOW, AGAIN, THERE IS THIS VARYING SORT OF BLACK AND WHITE LITERALISTIC YOU'RE IN OR YOU'RE OUT KIND OF BINARY VIEW OF THE WORLD IN MANY WAYS.

WE HAD THE ABSOLUTE TRUTH FROM GOD.

WE KNEW IT FOR SURE THAT MEANT THAT PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T AGREE WITH US OR SEE THE WORLD IN THE SAME WAY THAT WAS DESCRIBED IN A LOT OF DIFFERENT WAYS, IT MIGHT BE DESCRIBED AS NOT HAVING THEIR HEART RIGHT WITH GOD, AS NOT HAVING ACCEPTED JESUS, NOT FOLLOWING THE RIGHT PATH, NOT WALKING WITH THE LORD IS EVEN A PHRASE THAT WOULD BE APPLIED TO PEOPLE WHO WERE SORT OF IN THE CHURCH BUT NOT EXPRESSING IT ENOUGH OR NOT SHOWING THROUGH THEIR BEHAVIOR IN WAYS THAT PEOPLE IN THE CHURCH THOUGHT WAS ADEQUATE, THAT THEY WERE PART OF IN THE FOLD.

SO THERE WAS A LOT OF FEAR THERE WAS A LOT OF FEAR OF STEPPING OUT OF LINE, OF ANGERING GOD, OF DISPLEASING GOD.

AND ULTIMATELY, OF GOING TO HELL.

THAT HELL FIRE AND BRIMSTONE IMAGERY THAT YOU ASSOCIATE WITH OLD TIMEY PREACHERS, THAT WAS A BIG PART OF MY LIFE.

AND, YOU KNOW, SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS THE FACT THAT WHILE MOST PEOPLE I KNEW WERE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS, I WAS KIND OF DELIBERATELY AND INTENSELY SURROUNDED BY EVANGELICALS AT MY CHRISTIAN SCHOOL AND AT MY CHURCH AND SO FORTH.

ONE OF THE FEW PEOPLE I KNEW WHO WAS NOT WAS MY GRANDFATHER.

AND WE WERE VERY WORRIED FOR HIM.

I WOULD LIE IN BED AT NIGHT.

I TALK ABOUT THIS IN THE BOOK FEARING FOR HIS SOUL, AFRAID THAT HE WAS GOING TO GO TO HELL FOREVER.

AND THAT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT KIND OF THINKING, IT SHAPED A LOT OF US WHO GREW UP IN THIS MOVEMENT.

>> SO FAST FORWARD, WHEN DID YOU SEE CRACKS IN THE DAM?

WHEN DID IT START TO BREAK FOR YOU?

>> YOU KNOW, PEOPLE OFTEN ASK ME THIS.

WHAT WAS THE MOMENT?

AND THERE WASN'T ONE MOMENT.

AND I THINK FOR MANY OF THE PEOPLE I INTERVIEWED, IT WAS THE SAME.

THERE WERE MANY MOMENTS.

THERE WERE MANY LITTLE THINGS THAT JUST FELT LIKE THEY DIDN'T ADD UP, OR MOMENTS OF EXPOSURE TO PEOPLE WHO WERE DIFFERENT, WHO DIDN'T QUITE FIT THE MOLD OF WHAT WE WERE TOLD THE WORLD SHOULD BE LIKE OR WAS LIKE.

AND AGAIN, MY GRANDFATHER WAS A REALLY BIG PART OF THAT FOR ME.

I ALWAYS STRUGGLED WITH THE IDEA THAT THERE WAS SOMETHING WRONG WITH HIM, BOTH BECAUSE HE WASN'T A CHRISTIAN, AND ALSO BECAUSE AS A TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK, HE HAD COME OUT AFTER MY GRANDMOTHER PASSED AWAY IN THE '80s, HE CAME OUT AS GAY LATER IN LIFE THAT WAS A SOURCE OF A LOT OF CONFLICT AND TENSION IN MY FAMILY.

THIS WAS, AGAIN, A TIME WHEN THE MORAL MAJORITY WAS ON THE RISE.

THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT WAS RISING.

MY PARENTS WERE VERY INFLUENCED BY RIGHT-WING LEADERS LIKE JAMES DOBSON AND GARY BAUER AND RALPH REID AND OTHERS, AND PEOPLE WHO WERE FIGHTING AGAINST SAME-SEX MARRIAGE AND FIGHTING AGAINST ABORTION RIGHTS.

SO THE IDEA THAT MY OWN GRANDFATHER WAS LIVING IN THIS QUOTE, UNQUOTE LIFESTYLE I THINK WAS VERY DIFFICULT FOR MY PARENTS.

IT REALLY CLASHED WITH THEIR BELIEFS, AND IT MEANT THAT MY SIBLINGS AND I DIDN'T SPEND A LOT OF TIME WITH HIM BECAUSE HE WAS SEEN AS SORT OF A THREATENING FIGURE.

BUT I THINK OVER TIME, AS I THOUGHT MORE ABOUT THAT AND REALLY JUST KIND OF FELT A PULL TO HAVE A RELATIONSHIP WITH MY GRANDFATHER, AND ALSO THROUGH INTERACTIONS WITH OTHER KIDS HERE AND THERE WHO WERE NOT EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS -- >> FOR EXAMPLE, YOU WERE A SENATE PAGE.

TALK ABOUT THAT.

YOU MET A KID THERE WHEN YOU WERE A SENATE PAGE.

TALK THAN EXPERIENCE.

>> YEAH, IT WAS A BIG DEAL.

IN MANY WAYS I'M KIND OF AMAZED MY PARENTS LET ME DO IT.

I'M GRATEFUL THEY DID BECAUSE I WAS SO SHELTERED.

YET THEY LET ME GO OFF TO WASHINGTON, D.C. AND LIVE IN A GROUP OF MAYBE 40 OR SO OTHER SENATE PAGES.

AND I WAS FOR THE FIRST TIME IN REALLY WHAT WAS A PUBLIC SCHOOL, A SMALL PUBLIC SCHOOL PROVIDED BY THE SENATE, SURROUNDED BY KIDS FROM ALL OVER THE COUNTRY OF DIFFERENT FAITHS OR NO FAITH.

I HAD A MUSLIM FRIEND FOR THE FIRST TIME.

AND THAT WAS ALSO A PIVOTAL CONVERSATION FOR ME.

YOU KNOW, I TALK IN THE BOOK ABOUT THIS MOMENT THAT WE'RE SITTING ON THOSE SENATE STEPS, AND HE AND I WERE JUST SORT OF SHARING ABOUT OUR FAMILY BACKGROUNDS.

HIS PARENTS HAD COME AS REFUGEES FROM IRAN, AS IMMIGRANTS FROM IRAN.

AND YOU KNOW, HE HAD GROWN UP IN A MUSLIM FAMILY.

I GREW UP IN AN EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN FAMILY.

WE WERE KIND OF TRADING NOTES.

HE LOOKED ME IN THE EYE AND ASKED ME IF I THOUGHT THAT HE WAS GOING TO HELL BECAUSE HE WAS A MUSLIM.

AND THIS WAS SOMEBODY WHO WAS MY FRIEND, WHO I CARED ABOUT.

HE WAS A REALLY LOVELY PERSON.

AND I COULD SEE EVEN THEN THAT HE BELIEVED WHAT HE BELIEVED BECAUSE HOW HE WAS RAISED, AND I BELIEVED WHAT I BELIEVED AS A PRODUCT OF MY OWN CULTURE AND COMMUNITY.

YOU KNOW, I COULD SENSE THAT.

AND IT FELT WRONG TO TELL HIM THAT I THOUGHT HE WAS.

SO I KIND OF SAID I DIDN'T KNOW, BECAUSE I WASN'T READY TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

AND I THINK WHEN I WAS QUOTED THAT DIRECTLY BY SOMEBODY I CARED ABOUT, IT REALLY FORCED ME TO THINK ABOUT WHAT IS IT THAT I REALLY DO BELIEVE.

SO AS I GOT OLDER, I HAD MANY MORE MOMENTS LIKE THAT.

SOME OF IT WAS AROUND SCIENCE.

I WAS OUT THE CREATIONISM, AND THAT BECAME ININCREASINGLY HARD TO HOLD ON TO AND BELIEVE.

I WAS TAUGHT SYSTEMATICALLY THROUGH TEXTBOOKS, EVERYTHING, MY WORLD REINFORCED IT.

IT FELT LIKE A BETRAYAL TO ABANDON THAT.

BUT AS I LEARNED MORE, IT BECAME HARDER AND HARDER TO HOLD ON TO SO MANY OF THOSE IDEAS.

THAT'S THE EXPERIENCE THE COGNITIVE DISSONANCE OF TRYING TO ALIGN WHAT THEY PERCEIVE AND FEEL ABOUT THE WORLD WITH THIS BELIEF SYSTEM THAT DOESN'T ALWAYS MATCH THAT.

>> THERE ARE A GROUP OF PEOPLE YOU DESCRIBE.

DONALD TRUMP WAS THE CRISIS.

CAN YOU TALK ABOUT THAT?

>> I THINK MANY PEOPLE IN THE MOVEMENT, OR WITH TIES IN THE MOVEMENT, FOR THEM EVANGELICALISM WAS THEIR COMMUNITY AND THEIR CULTURE.

IT'S FORCED A LOT OF SOUL-SEARCHING, AND IT'S CATALYZED CONVERSATIONS THAT, YOU KNOW, FOR ONE THING ARE POSSIBLE TODAY IN A WAY THEY WEREN'T IN THE PAST.

SOMETHING I TALK ABOUT A LOT IS THE FACT THAT IF YOU LEFT A RELIGIOUS COMMUNITY 20 OR 30 YEARS AGO, YOU MIGHT BE A FEW BOOKS OUT THERE.

YOU PROBABLY WOULD RUN INTO OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAD HAD A SIMILAR EXPERIENCE.

BUT THERE WAS NO MAJOR ORGANIZED WAY TO FIND OTHER PEOPLE WHO HAD BEEN ON THAT JOURNEY, WHICH CAN BE VERY DISORIENTING AND ISOLATING.

AND TODAY, BECAUSE OF THE INTERNET, THERE ARE FACEBOOK GROUPS.

THERE ARE PODCASTS, THERE ARE HASH TAGS, EXVANGELICAL IS A HASH TAG I FIRST CAME ACROSS WHEN COVERING THE 2016 CAMPAIGN AND TALKING TO SOME WHITE EVANGELICALS WHO WERE FEELING A BIT DISILLUSIONED WITH THE ALIGNMENT OF EVANGELICALISM AND TRUMP.

BUT THAT HAS -- THAT HASH TAG HAS BLOWN UP ONLINE IN RECENT YEARS.

AND THERE ARE CONVERSATIONS GOING ON AROUND RELIGIOUS DISAFFILIATION ACROSS THE BOARD, THIS TERM DECONSTRUCTION IS KIND OF A SIMILAR RELATED IDEA THAT PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT.

IT'S BECOME A LANGUAGE REALLY FOR THIS EXPERIENCE OF RETHINKING ONE'S FAITH BACKGROUND.

AND I SHOULD SAY EVANGELICALS ARE -- VELLISM HAS BEEN ON A LONG-TERM DOWNWARD TRAJECTORY AS A PERCENTAGE OF THE POPULATION FOR THE LAST 20 YEARS OR SO.

IT USED TO BE ABOUT ONE IN FOUR PEOPLE WERE WHITE EVANGELICALS.

NOW THAT'S MORE LIKE 14%.

BUT THAT IS NOT UNIQUE TO EVANGELICALS.

WHITE CHRISTIANITY AS A WHOLE IS ON THE DECLINE, AND THE COUNTRY IS BECOMING MORE SECULAR, PERHAPS MORE LIKE EUROPE.

AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF SHIFTING THAT'S HAPPENING.

THERE IS ALSO SOME EVIDENCE THAT SOME PEOPLE ARE ACTUALLY ATTRACTED TO THE EVANGELICAL LABEL BECAUSE OF TRUMP.

AND SO WHAT SEEMS TO BE HAPPENING IS THERE ARE A LOT OF RIFTS IN CHURCHES AND A DEEPENING OF SOME OF THE SORT OF POLITICAL POLARIZATION THAT GOES WITH EVANGELICAL LABEL.

>> THERE IS THIS LINGERING QUESTION EXISTING FOR MANY PEOPLE, WHICH IS HOW IS IT THAT THE WHITE EVANGELICAL MOVEMENT CAN BROADLY DEFINE, UNDERSTANDING EVERYTHING YOU SAID, LOTS OF DIFFERENT CHURCHES, ET CETERA AS A PART OF THAT.

AS A GROUP, HEW SO CLOSELY TO SOMEBODY WHO WOULD SEEM ON THE SURFACE TO BE SO ANTITHETICAL TO THE THINGS THEY CLAIM TO PROFESS.

>> I THINK THERE ARE TWO MAJOR ANSWERS TO THAT QUESTION.

THE FIRST IS PRAGMATIC AND INSTRUMENTAL.

EVANGELICALS IN 2016 SAW TRUMP AS SOMEONE WHO WOULD DELIVER ON THEIR GOALS, AND HE DID IN MANY CASES, RIGHT, THE OVERTURNING WITH ROE V. WADE AND SO FORTH.

AND THEY SEE HIM AS SOMEONE WHO WILL CONTINUE TO STAND UP FOR THEM, TO STAND UP FOR THEIR MOVEMENT.

THE SECOND PART OF THAT ANSWER, AND IT'S RELATED TO THE FIRST, IS THE FACT THAT IF YOU LOOK AT SOME OF THE MESSAGING AROUND AMERICA, AND I OUTLINE A LOT OF THIS IN MY BOOK, THE IDEA THAT EVANGELICALS, MANY EVANGELICALS TOLD AND HAVE FOR A LONG TIME IS AMERICA IS A CHRISTIAN NATION.

IT WAS FOUNDED AT A CHRISTIAN NATION, AND IT HAS MOVED AWAY FROM GOD AND CHRISTIANITY.

RECENTLY TRUMP HELD UP THAT BIBLE THAT HE WAS HOCKING ON TRUTH SOCIAL AND SAID WE'RE UNDER SIEGE, WE'RE GOING BRING CHRISTIANITY BACK, THAT MESSAGE RESONATES FOR EVANGELICALS.

THEY DON'T CARE TOO MUCH THAT TRUMP IS OBVIOUSLY NOT A DEEPLY RELIGIOUS PERSON.

THERE HAVE BEEN SOME ATTEMPTS TO SUGGEST THAT HE IS, BUT I DON'T BELIEVE MOST EVANGELICALS BELIEVE THAT.

IF YOU LOOK AT POLLING BY GROUPS LIKE PEW, MOST EVANGELICALS WHO SUPPORT TRUMP DON'T SEE HIM AS DEEPLY DEVOUT.

THAT'S NOT THE POINT.

THE POINT IS HE IS THE CHAMPION FOR THEIR MOVEMENT.

HE SPEAKS THEIR LANGUAGE.

AND HE HAS FROM THE BEGINNING SOUGHT THEM OUT, MADE THEM A PRIORITY AND SAID WHAT THEY WANTED TO HEAR, AND IN MANY CASES DELIVERED ON WHAT HE WANTED THEM TO DO.

AND THAT SEEMS TO BE ENOUGH FOR A MAJORITY OF WHITE EVANGELICALS.

>> ARE EXVANGELICALS, AS YOU DESCRIBE THEM AND AS OTHERS HAVE DESCRIBED THEM, ARE THEY EMERGING AS A POLITICAL FORCE IN ANY DIRECTION?

>> I THINK THEY COULD BE.

I THINK IT'S EARLY TO SAY.

AND I THINK PEOPLE WHO HAVE LEFT RELIGION IN PART BECAUSE OF DISAFFECTION WITH SOME OF THE POLITICIZATION OF RELIGION, BOTH EX-EVANGELICALS AND SOME FORMER CATHOLICS, THEY FORM A PRETTY BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE.

AND THERE IS A HOST OF REASONS WHY PEOPLE LEAVE.

SOME OF IT HAS TO DO WITH SIMPLY NOT BELIEVING THE THINGS THEIR CHURCHES TEACH.

BUT THE POLLING I'VE SEEN FROM GROUPS LIKE THE PUBLIC RELIGION RESEARCH INSTITUTE SUGGESTS THAT PARTICULARLY THE TREATMENT OF LGBTQ PEOPLE BY MUCH OF THE CHRISTIAN RIGHT IS A MAJOR FACTOR FOR PARTICULARLY A LOT OF YOUNGER PEOPLE DISAFFILIATING FROM THEIR CHURCHES.

AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU TAKE THIS GROUP ON THE HOLE, OF PEOPLE WHO CALL THEMSELVES NONES, OR NOTHING AT ALL, THEY ARE GROUPS THAT LEANS LEFT.

THEY TEND TO VOTE FOR DEMOCRATS, BUT THEY'RE ALSO LESS POLITICALLY ENGAGED THAN WHITE EVANGELICALS.

SO WHAT YOU HAVE IS MAYBE A BIG GROUP OF PEOPLE THAT SORT OF LOOSELY CONNECTED IN THE SENSE THAT THEY'VE LEFT RELIGION, MAYBE PARTLY FOR POLITICAL REASONS.

BUT THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ORGANIZED YET AROUND A COMMON GOAL.

I THINK THAT'S A CHALLENGE OF POLITICAL ORGANIZERS THAT WHITE EVANGELICALS, WHILE THEY ARE A SHRINKING PART OF THE POPULATION, REMAIN A VERY POLITICALLY ENGAGED AND UNIFIED VOTING BLOC.

AND THAT'S REALLY WHAT DONALD TRUMP SAW AND TAPPED INTO.

NOW WHERE THAT GOES LONG-TERM I THINK IS A FASCINATING QUESTION, BECAUSE THERE IS SO MUCH THAT'S IN FLUX RIGHT NOW WHEN IT COMES TO AMERICAN CHRISTIANITY AND AMERICAN RELIGION IN GENERAL.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THAT CAN BE REALLY INTENSE IS THAT INTERIOR WORLD OF DISENGAGING FROM WHAT YOU KNOW, AND WHAT YOU GREW UP KNOWING AND BELIEVING.

I JUST WANTED TO ASK, IF YOU DON'T MIND, IS THAT A CONTINUING SOURCE OF STRUGGLE?

>> WELL, I THINK THE TENSION IS SORT OF SORTING THROUGH THE THINGS THAT YOU LOVE AND BELIEVE AND THEN SIFTING THROUGH THOSE THINGS AND PRESERVING THEM WHILE ALSO OPENING, YOU KNOW, AND EXPANDING.

I MEAN, I THINK FOR ME, MY OWN RELIGIOUS SORT OF IDENTITY HAS CHANGED BECAUSE I WANTED TO BE ABLE TO INCLUDE PEOPLE THAT I FELT I COULDN'T INCLUDE.

IN THE WORLD THAT I WAS BROUGHT UP IN, PEOPLE LIKE MY GRANDFATHER AND LIKE MY FRIEND WHO CAME FROM A MUSLIM FAMILY.

I WANTED TO INCLUDE THOSE PEOPLE.

I WANTED TO LOVE THEM.

I WANTED TO SEE THEM JUST AS VALID AS ME.

AND THAT NECESSITATED A SHIFT IN MY OWN THINKING.

BUT THAT SHIFT, AND NOT JUST FOR ME, FOR MANY PEOPLE I TALKED TO, IT CAN BE VERY ISOLATING AND SCARY, BECAUSE IT MEANS -- IT SORT OF LEADS TO THE QUESTION, WELL, IF I CHANGE THIS PART OF ME, WHAT ELSE CHANGES?

AND WHAT DO I REALLY KNOW AND WHAT DO I HOLD ON TO?

I THINK THAT, YES, TO ANSWER YOUR QUESTION, THERE IS STILL A TENSION FOR ME.

BUT ULTIMATELY, THAT QUESTION OF WHAT DO I THINK AND HOW DO I WANT TO LIVE IS BETWEEN EITHER, YOU KNOW, US AND OURSELVES OR MAYBE OURSELVES AND GOD IF YOU'RE SOMEBODY WHO BELIEVES IN GOD.

BUT THAT'S I THINK ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I HOPE TO ACCOMPLISH WITH THIS BOOK IS JUST DESCRIBING THE FACT THAT THIS JOURNEY IS A CHALLENGING ONE FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE.

AND THAT FINDING OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE ON A SIMILAR JOURNEY REGARDLESS OF WHERE THEY ARRIVE AT THE END CAN BE VERY EMPOWERING AND VERY COMFORTING.

>> SARAH McCAMMON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.