>>> AND TURNING BACK TO AMERICA NOW AND ITS FAVORITE PASTIME, BASEBALL, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL OF COURSE BANNED AFRICAN AMERICAN ATHLETES AT THE END OF THE 19th CENTURY.

THEY CREATED THEIR OWN LEAGUE THE P. ITS SUCCESS AND POPULARITY IS THE FOCUS OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY CALLED "THE LEAGUE", AND HERE'S A CLIP FROM THE TRAILER.

>> A FEW ENTREPRENEURS SEE THAT A BLACK CLUB CAN BE A SUCCESSFUL BUSINESS.

>> RUBE FOSTER, LIGHT YEARS AHEAD OF HIS TIME.

>> THE FIRST LADY OF BLACK BASEBALL.

>> NEGRO LEAGUES PLAYERS MADE THE GAME MORE UP TEMPO, BUNT AND RUN.

>> BASE STEALING, THESE INCREDIBLY ACROBATIC CATCHERS.

>> THE MAJOR LEAGUERS WOULD SAY THAT THE NEGRO LEAGUERS DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE RIGHT WAY.

REALLY THAT WAS A THEY DIDN'T PLAY THE GAME THE WHITE WAY.

>> AND THE CRITICALLY ACCLAIMED DIRECTOR SAM POLLARD IS JOINING WALTER ISAACSON TO DISCUSS HOW AND TRANSFORMED THE COUNTRY.

>> SAM POLLARD, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

CONGRATULATIONS ON THIS GREAT DOCUMENTARY, "THE LEAGUE".

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT BEING HERE.

>> LIKE ME, YOU ARE A ST. LOUIS CARDINALS FAN GROWING UP, AND I WANT TO TAKE YOU BACK TO THE YEAR 1964, AN AMAZING YEAR WHEN THEY COME FROM BEHIND TO WIN THE PENNANT.

THEY'VE GOT BILL WHITE, AND YOU KNOW, GREAT FIRST BASEMAN, DEFENSIVE PLAYER, WINS THE GOLDEN GLOVE.

CURT FLOOD WHO LED THE NATIONAL LEAGUE IN HITS AND TRADED TO THEM IN THE MIDDLE OF THE SEASON IS LOU BROCK WHO STEALS ALL THESE BASES.

ONE OF THE THINGS ABOUT THEM IS THEY'RE ALL AFRICAN AMERICANS.

WHEN YOU'RE WATCHING THAT PENNANT RATE, DID YOU THINK ABOUT THE FACT THAT THEY WERE AFRICAN AMERICANS, AND DID YOU REALIZE THAT JUST 20 YEARS BEFORE THEY WOULDN'T HAVE BEEN ABLE TO PLAY?

>> YOU KNOW, I KNEW A LITTLE BIT ABOUT JACKIE ROBINSON INTEGRATES MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL IN '47 LOUIS CARDINALS FAN I BECAME A CARDINALS FAN.

IT WAS THE IDEA OF LOU BROCK AND BOB GIBSON ON THE FIELD THAT MADE IT SO SPECIAL FOR ME.

I DON'T KNOW IF I WAS REALLY THINKING ABOUT THESE WERE AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYERS, BUT YOU KNOW, THEY WERE NEGRO PLAYERS FOR ME BACK THEN SO IT WAS IMPORTANT JUST TO SEE THEM ON THE FIELD.

I WATCHED IT ON TV.

WE HAD THE LITTLE BLACK AND WHITE TV, AND WE SAW THE GAMES.

SO WHEN I GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO WORK ON THIS DOCUMENTARY ABOUT THE NEGRO LEAGUES, AND TO REALLY DIG INTO NOT ONLY UNDERSTANDING WHO SATCHEL PAIGE WAS OR JOSH GIBSON WAS WHO I KNEW ABOUT WHEN I WAS 14 AND 15, NOW I GOT TO LEARN ABOUT RUBE FOSTER, AND MANLY, AND GUS GREENLEE, YOU KNOW, AND CUM POSEY, AND ALL THE OTHER PHENOMENAL PLAYERS AND MANAGERS AND OWNERS WHO MADE THE NEGRO LEAGUES, YOU KNOW, SO IMPORTANT IN THE '20s, '30s, AND '40s.

>> YOU KNOW, THE THING THAT STRUCK ME, I DIDN'T KNOW THIS, IS THAT IN THE LATE 1800s, THERE WERE A LOT OF AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYERS WHO PLAYED ON MOSTLY WHITE TEAMS.

LET'S LOOK AT THE CLIP FROM YOUR DOCUMENTARY THAT TALKS ABOUT THAT.

♪♪ >> AFRICAN AMERICANS HAVE BEEN PLAYING BASEBALL FOR AS LONG AS WHITE PEOPLE HAVE BEEN PLAYING BASEBALL.

AS THE SPORT BEGAN TO TAKE HOLD IN POPULARITY, POST-CIVIL WAR, BLACK PEOPLE WERE THERE ALWAYS.

THERE WERE ORGANIZED BLACK TEAMS AND THEY BARNSTORMED, THEY PLAYED AGAINST OTHER BLACK TEAMS, THEY PLAYED AGAINST WHITE TEAMS.

>> THERE WERE BLACKS WHO DID PLAY WITH WHITES ON TEAMS.

THE TEAM WAS MAJORITY WHITE.

IT MAY HAVE ONE OR TWO BLACK PLAYERS ON IT.

AND THAT SEEMED TO BE SOMETHING THAT WAS MORE ACCEPTABLE TO THE WHITE PAYING PUBLIC IF THEY ONLY HAD ONE OR TWO BLACK PLAYERS AS OPPOSED TO A TEAM THAT MIGHT HAVE MAJORITY BLACK PLAYERS AND ONE OR TWO WHITE PLAYERS.

>> BUT AS WE MOVE FORWARD THROUGH HISTORY, WE SEE THAT SEGREGATION STARTS TO TIGHTEN ITS HOLD.

>> TELL ME ABOUT THESE PLAYERS IN THE LATE 1800s.

>> WE ALWAYS -- I WAS ALWAYS UNDER THE ASSUMPTION WHEN I WAS IN MY TEENS THAT IT WAS JACKIE ROBINSON WHO WAS THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN PLAYER WHO WAS INTEGRATED INTO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, BUT IN DOING THE RESEARCH, WE LEARNED THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN NAMED MOSES FLEETWOOD WALKER WHO WAS ONE OF THE AFRICAN AMERICANS TO PLAY ON THESE WHITE TEAMS.

AND THERE WERE OTHER BLACK PLAYERS PLAYING ON THOSE TEAMS IN THE 1880s, 1890s, BUT THEN THERE WAS A GENTLEMAN'S AGREEMENT THAT WAS REALLY STARTED BY THE HALL OF FAMER, CAP ANSON WHO BASICALLY DIDN'T WANT TO PLAY WITH BLACK PLAYERS, AND THAT SORT OF JUST REALLY PERMEATED ALL OF THE MAJOR LEAGUE TEAMS WHERE THEY DECIDED NOT TO HAVE ANY BLACK PLAYERS ON THOSE TEAMS, YOU KNOW.

SO THAT'S WHAT LED TO PEOPLE LIKE RUBE FOSTER IN 1920 WITH A BUNCH OF OTHER OWNERS, NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS SAYING IN KANSAS CITY, MISSOURI, LET'S PUT TOGETHER OUR OWN NATIONAL LEAGUE OF BLACK TEAMS, AND THEY CREATED IN 1920, THE NEGRO NATIONAL LEAGUE, WHICH REALLY FLOURISHED FOR ABOUT TEN YEARS UNTIL THE UNTIMELY DEATH OF RUBE FOSTER AROUND 1929, 1930.

AND THEN THERE WAS ANOTHER SORT OF MAJOR UPHEAVAL IN THE '30s, OUT OF PITTSBURGH, THEY HAD THE FACTORIES AND THEY HAD A LOT OF BLACK PEOPLE IN THE COMMUNITY.

AND TWO MEN BASICALLY STARTED THE SECOND INTEGRATION OF NEGRO BASEBALL, AND THAT WAS A GENTLEMAN NAMED CUM POSEY WHO OWNED THE HOMESTEAD GRAYS AND GUS GREELEY WHO OWNED THE PITTSBURGH CRAWFORDS.

AND THOSE TEAMS AND THOSE PLAYERS ON THOSE TEAMS WERE THE THINGS I REALLY GOT TO KNOW ABOUT AS A YOUNG MAN, AND THOSE ARE PEOPLE LIKE SATCHEL PAIGE, GREAT HOME RUN HITTER JOSH GIBSON, YOU KNOW, THE PLAYER COOL PAPA BELL, BUCK LEONARD, OSCAR CHARLESTON.

THEY WERE SUCH PHENOMENAL PLAYERS, AND THEY WERE SO GOOD THEY CREATED -- IT WAS SORT OF LIKE WE JUST SAW THIS THE PAST COUPLE OF DAYS, THEY CALLED IT THE EAST WEST CLASSIC, WHERE THE BEST PLAYERS FROM THE EASTERN TEAMS AND THE WESTERN TEAMS WOULD COME TOGETHER AND THEY WOULD PLAY BASEBALL, AND YOU KNOW AND I KNOW THAT BACK THEN WHEN WE WERE YOUNG THEN, BASEBALL WAS THE AMERICAN PASTIME.

EVERYBODY LOVED BASEBALL.

IT'S NOT THE CASE SO MUCH ANYMORE, BUT BACK THEN THAT WAS EVERYTHING EVERYBODY TALKED ABOUT.

YOU KNOW, BASEBALL, BASEBALL, BASEBALL.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.

RUBE FOSTER FASCINATED ME.

>> RUBE FOSTER IS PHENOMENAL PERSON.

FIRST OF ALL, HE WAS A GREAT PITCHER.

THEN HE BECAME A WONDERFUL OWNER OF THE CHICAGO AMERICAN GIANTS.

THEN HOE DECIDED I'M GOING TO BRING TOGETHER NOT ONLY MY TEAM BUT OTHER NEGRO TEAMS AND OWNERS TO CREATE THE NEGRO NATIONAL LEAGUE.

HE IS THE FATHER OF NEGRO LEAGUE BASEBALL.

HE HAD AN UNTIMELY DEATH IN 1929, 1930, BUT HIS LEGACY HAS STOOD THE TEST OF TIME, AND HE IS IN THE HALL OF FAME.

AND THEN HIS MANTLE, THAT MANTLE IS PASSED ON TO TWO OTHER GREAT OWNERS, CUM POSEY WHO OWNED THE HOMESTEAD GRAYS AND GUS GREELEY WHO OWNED THE PITTSBURGH CRAWFORDS, THOSE TWO MEN ALONE IN THEIR '30s, GREELEY REIGNITED NEGRO BASEBALL, THEY HAD WONDERFUL PLAYERS, SATCHEL PAIGE, PHENOMENAL PITCHER, JOSH GIBSON GREAT HITTER.

COOL PAPA BELL WHO COULD RUN THE BASE WITH LIGHTNING SPEED, OSCAR CHARLESTON, BUCK LEONARD, YOU KNOW, THEY HAD GREAT PLAYERS.

THEN YOU SAW AFTER WORLD WAR II, THERE WAS ANOTHER GROUP OF PLAYERS WHO WOULD BE THE FIRST GROUP WHO WOULD GO INTO MAJOR LEAGUES.

MONTE IRVIN WHO WENT TO THE NEW YORK GIANTS AFTER WILLIE MAYS.

YOU KNOW, WILLIE MAYES, ROY CAMPANELLA, DON NEW COME, THE LIST GOES ON AND ON.

THE HISTORY WAS EXTREMELY IMPACTFUL.

WHEN I'M DOING THESE DOCUMENTARIES ABOUT THE AFRICAN AMERICAN EXPERIENCE, I WANT PEOPLE TO CLEARLY UNDERSTAND IT WAS A PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY.

>> YEAH, LET'S TALK ABOUT THAT PART OF AMERICAN HISTORY BECAUSE STARTING WITH PLESSY V. FERGUSON, THAT'S WHERE THE SEGREGATION HAPPENS IN BASEBALL, BUT YOU ALSO SEE IN THE 1920s, EVEN 1930s DURING THE DEPRESSION WHEN THE NEGRO LEAGUES COME UP, IT'S CONNECTED WITH THE NEWSPAPERS, LIKE THE CHICAGO DEFENDER.

IT'S CONNECTED WITH BLACK-OWNED BUSINESSES, SO -- AND IT EVEN FEELS LIKE A MOVEMENT IN YOUR DOCUMENTARY, LIKE ALMOST A CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

TELL ME HOW IT'S CONNECTED TO U.S. HISTORY.

>> WELL, HERE'S THE IMPORTANT THING TO REMEMBER, THAT BLACK COMMUNITIES, WHICH WERE BASICALLY SEGREGATED BECAUSE WE HAD BEEN SEEN AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS, WE HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO SURVIVE BOTH, YOU KNOW, CULTURALLY AND ECONOMICALLY, YOU BUSINESSES.

WE HAD TO HAVE OUR OWN DOCTORS.

WE HAD TO HAVE OUR OWN LAWYERS AND THE NEGRO LEAGUE TEAMS, OWNERS WAS A PART OF THE ECONOMIC ENGINE IN THOSE COMMUNITIES.

BLACK PEOPLE COULD GO TO BASEBALL GAMES ON THE WEEKEND.

THEY COULD BUY STUFF FROM THE CONCESSION STANDS.

THEY COULD BUY, YOU KNOW, THEY COULD SEE THE PLAYERS PLAY AND GOT PAID, YOU KNOW.

SO THE MONEY THAT WAS GENERATED BY THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS AND THE TEAMS WENT BACK INTO THE BLACK COMMUNITY, AND THAT'S HOW THESE COMMUNITIES WERE ABLE TO SURVIVE, YOU KNOW, AND FLOURISH.

YOU KNOW, BECAUSE WE WEREN'T BEING GIVEN ANYTHING.

WE WERE TREATED AS SECOND CLASS CITIZENS.

SO IT WAS IMPORTANT THAT THESE TEAMS CAME ABOUT BECAUSE LIKE THE FUNERAL PARLORS, LIKE THE DENTISTS, LIKE THE DOCTORS, LIKE THE STORES, THERE WAS ANOTHER WAY FOR ECONOMICALLY FOR THE COMMUNITIES TO FLOURISH.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT RUBE FOSTER BEING A GREAT PITCHER, BUT THEN HELPS FORM THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

COMPARE HIM AS A PITCHER TO SATCHEL PAIGE, THE MOST FAMOUS COMING OUT OF THE MEE NOOE GROW LEAGUE.

>> THE THING ABOUT SATCHEL PAIGE HISTORICALLY AND LEGEND WISE, HE IS CONSIDERED THE GREATEST NEGRO LEAGUE PITCHER EVER.

IN THE FILM WE TELL A STORY OF HOW HE HAD THE INFIELD SIT DOWN, THE OUTFIELD COME IN, AND HE STRUCK OUT NINE STRAIGHT BATTERS.

YOU KNOW, THAT SHOWS YOU, YOU KNOW, HE STRUCK OUT THREE BATTERS WITH NINE PITCHES.

THAT SHOWS YOU HOW GREAT A PLAYER HE WAS.

>> AND IT ALSO SHOWS WHAT A SHOWMAN HE WAS.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT BARNSTORMING TIME IN THE '30s WITH DIZZY AND DAFFY DEAN PLAYING SATCHEL PAIGE'S TEAM.

WHAT WAS THAT ALL ABOUT?

>> WELL, IT WAS ABOUT MAKING SOME EXTRA MONEY.

IT WAS OFF SEASON AND THESE TEAMS -- IT WASN'T LIKE THE BASEBALL PLAYERS TODAY WHO MAKES MILLIONS AND MILLIONS OF DOLLARS.

WHEN THE SEASON WAS OVER AND BASEBALL PLAYERS NEED TO SURVIVE, THEY WOULD GO AROUND THE COUNTRY, AND THEY WOULD PLAY LOCAL TEAMS.

THEY WOULD PLAY BLACK TEAMS WOULD PLAY WHITE TEAMS.

TO MAKE SOME EXTRA MONEY TO GENERATE SOME CROWDS.

THIS WAS AN OPPORTUNITY WHEN THEY HAD THE WHITE TEAMS PLAYING THE BLACK TEAMS FOR WHITE PEOPLE TO SEE HOW TALENTED THE BLACK NEGRO LEAGUE PLAYERS WERE.

YOU KNOW.

AND THIS LED TO THE WHITE PRESS UNDERSTANDING MAYBE THERE SHOULD BE -- THERE'S SOME TALKS ABOUT INTEGRATION, AND YOU HAD BLACK NEWSPAPERS LIKE THE CHICAGO DEFENDERS, CHICAGO DEFENDER AND THE PITTSBURGH COURIER BASICALLY TOUTING THE SAME THING.

THE IMPORTANCE OF MAYBE INTEGRATING MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL.

>> WE ALWAYS THINK OF JACKIE ROBINSON UP THERE WITH SATCHEL PAIGE, FIRST PERSON TO BE BROUGHT IN TO BE INTEGRATING THE BROOKLYN DODGERS.

FIRST LET'S LOOK AT A CLIP INVOLVING JACKIE ROBINSON.

>> ONE OF THE VERY FIRST TIMES THAT I WENT TO SEE THE GAME AT EBBOTT'S FIELD, GOING ON THE SUBWAY, YOU'D HAVE THOUGHT ALL OF HARLEM WAS HEADING THERE.

EVERYBODY I SEE THEY'RE BRINGING ALONG BASKETS.

IT'S LIKE A BIG PICNIC.

ALL OF HARLEM IS GOING TO EBBOTT'S FIELD, YOU KNOW WHERE THEY'RE GOING AND WHY THEY'RE GOING.

>> JACKIE, EVERYBODY TALKING ABOUT JACKIE.

>> SO TELL ME ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF JACKIE ROBINSON AND THE OWNER, BRANCH RICKIE WHO BROUGHT HIM IN.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT BRANCH RICKIE WAS A HERO BUT NOT SO IN YOUR DOCUMENTARY.

>> LISTEN, WHEN I WAS 14 YEARS OLD, JACKIE ROBINSON WAS THE CAT'S PAJAMAS, MAN.

WE ALL SAID HE WAS THE GREATEST THING TO HAPPEN TO MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL WHEN HE INTEGRATED THE BROOKLYN DODGERS.

AND WE ALL KNOW THE CLASSIC PICTURE OF THE FOOTAGE OF JACKIE ROBINSON SIGN AGO CONTRACT SITTING NEXT TO BRANCH RICKIE, AND BRANCH RICKIE IN TERMS OF MYTHOLOGY IS LOOKED AT AS THIS WONDERFUL HUMAN BEING WHO BASICALLY SAYS TO JACKIE ROBINSON, WE WANT YOU TO INTEGRATE MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL, BUT YOU'VE GOT TO BE ABLE TO DEAL WITH ALL THE OBSCENITIES CONTAINED, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR THE SPORT.

IT'S GOING TO BE GOOD FOR YOUR PEOPLE.

NOW, WHAT WE DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT MR. RICKIE THAT WE LEARNED IN THIS DOCUMENTARY IS THAT HE DIDN'T WANT TO COMPENSATE THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS FOR THE PLAYERS HE SIGNED, SPECIFICALLY JACKIE ROBINSON, ROY CAMPANELLA AND DON NEW COME.

ONE OF THE NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS, WHO WAS A CO-OWNER OF THE NEWARK EAGLES CHALLENGED THIS IN PRINT, YOU KNOW.

HOW COME BRANCH RICKIE IS NOT COMPENSATING NEGRO LEAGUE OWNERS FOR THE PLAYERS HE'S SIGNING.

HE WAS ABLE TO GET BILL BECK WHO WAS A WONDERFUL SHOWMAN FOR THE CLEVELAND INDIANS TO COMPENSATE HER FOR HIM SIGNING LARRY DOE BEE, WHO BECAME THE FIRST AFRICAN AMERICAN TO PLAY IN THE AMERICAN LEAGUES IN 1948.

SO YOU KNOW, IT'S ALWAYS FOR ME, IT'S ALWAYS INTERESTING WHEN YOU DO THESE DOCUMENTARIES TO BE ABLE TO, YOU KNOW, DIG INTO A STORY AND SEE THE LEVELS OF COMPLEXITY AND SEE THAT IT'S A DIFFERENT WAY THAN THE WAY YOU WERE ORIGINALLY TOLD THE STORY.

>> JACKIE ROBINSON ALSO BECOMES AN EARLY LEADER OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, AN EARLY FACE OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

WAS THAT BECAUSE OF HIS EXPERIENCES BECOMING THE FIRST BLACK PLAYER IN THE MAJOR LEAGUES?

AND HOW DID THAT AFFECT HIM?

>> I THINK JACKIE ROBINSON'S, YOU KNOW, BECOMING A VOICE IN THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT GOES BACK TO EVEN BEFORE HE BECAME A BALLPLAYER.

IF YOU REMEMBER, HE WAS COURT MARTIALED, YOU KNOW, IN THE '40s WHEN HE WAS A SOLDIER, OFFICER FOR REFUSING TO NOT SIT IN THE BACK OF THE BUS ON A BUS HE WAS ON.

HE ALWAYS HAD A CERTAIN LEVEL OF PRO ACTIVISM ABOUT WHO HE WAS AS A MAN OF COLOR, AS A BLACK MAN, YOU KNOW.

BUT HE JUST BECAME MUCH MORE FEROCIOUS AND HAD A BIGGER VOICE ABOUT IT AS HIS CAREER EVOLVED AS A BASEBALL PLAYER.

>> TELL ME WHAT THE INTEGRATION OF MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL DID TO THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

>> WELL, WITH PLAYERS LIKE WILLIE MAYES AND HANK AARON AND ERNIE BANKS AND JACKIE ROBINSON -- >> ALL OF WHO CAME FROM THE NEGRO LEAGUES.

>> ALL CAME FROM THE NEGRO LEAGUES, AND YOU KNOW, THE FANS WANTED TO SEE THESE PLAYERS, AND NOW THEY HAD AN OPPORTUNITY TO GO TO MAJOR LEAGUE, YOU KNOW, BASEBALL STADIUMS AND SEE THESE PLAYERS, WHICH MEANT THEY DIDN'T GO TO MANY NEGRO LEAGUE GAMES.

AND THE NEGRO LEAGUE TEAMS STARTED TO SUFFER.

THEY'D LOST SOME OF THEIR BEST PLAYERS.

THEY WERE LOSING THEIR CROWDS, YOU KNOW, SO BY 1960, IT BECAME DIMINISHED AND IT WAS LOST FOREVER.

BUT IT'S SORT OF LIKE, YOU KNOW, A METAPHOR FOR WHAT HAPPENS WITH INTEGRATION.

I MEAN, WE ALL KNEW THE IMPORTANCE OF BROWN V. BOARD OF EDUCATION, 1954.

WE ALL KNOW THE IMPORTANCE OF THE MONTGOMERY BUS BOYCOTT, YOU KNOW, BUT INTEGRATION IS A VERY TRICKY THING IN AMERICA.

THERE'S AN UPSIDE AND A DOWNSIDE TO IT IN AMERICA.

EVEN TODAY IN COMMUNITIES ALL ACROSS AMERICA THAT ARE SUPPOSEDLY INTEGRATED BUT THEY'RE NOT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF ECONOMICS, BECAUSE OF, YOU KNOW, COMMUNITY LOCATIONS, YOU KNOW, SO THIS NOTION OF INTEGRATION IN SOME WAYS WAS A DOWNSIDE FOR SOME COMMUNITIES BECAUSE THOSE WHO WERE PROFESSIONALS, THE DOCTORS AND THE LAWYERS WHO HAD BEEN FORCED TO LIVE WITHIN ONE TYPE OF COMMUNITY NOW HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO MOVE OUT OF THOSE COMMUNITIES.

AND IF YOU LOST THOSE KIND OF PEOPLE OUT OF YOUR COMMUNITIES, THEN THE COMMUNITIES WOULD SUFFER FROM AN ECONOMIC PERSPECTIVE.

>> THAT'S FASCINATING, AND THAT REALLY STRUCK ME AT THE END OF YOUR DOCUMENTARY, WHICH TALKS ABOUT BASEBALL, BUT IT'S ALSO ABOUT SOCIETY, AMERICA AS A WHOLE, AND ABOUT CIVIL RIGHTS IN AMERICA, THAT DOUBLE-EDGED SWORD OF INTEGRATION.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR PROBABLY COMPLEX EMOTIONS ON THAT.

>> WELL, HERE I AM AS A YOUNG BLACK MAN IN THE '60s, WALTER, AND WHAT WAS I TOLD AS A YOUNG AFRICAN AMERICAN IN '64, '65.

FORGET ABOUT WHO YOU ARE, WHERE YOU COME FROM, BECOME A PART OF THE AMERICAN MELTING POT, AND EVERYTHING WILL BE FINE.

RIGHT?

NOW, I BOUGHT THAT WHOLE HOG, I BOUGHT IT COMPLETELY.

IT WAS ONLY UNTIL MY 20s THAT I REALIZED THAT BEING AMERICAN IS VERY COMPLICATED.

THE HISTORY AND THE GENESIS OF THIS COUNTRY, WHICH IS BASED ON ENSLAVED PEOPLE, BASED ON THE DECIMATION OF NATIVE PEOPLE, IS A LONG AND COMPLICATED HISTORY, AND AS AN AFRICAN AMERICAN WHO BASICALLY AS SHERMAN HENCELY WOULD SAY IN MOVE ON UP, YOU KNOW, IN THE JEFFERSONS, I HAD THE SAME PHILOSOPHY BUT AT WHAT PRICE?

EVERYTHING IS AT A PRICE, YOU KNOW, SO IT'S ALWAYS COMPLICATED FEELINGS, WHEN IT'S LIKE, YOU KNOW, I LIVE IN BALTIMORE, AND ISN'T COMPLETELY THE BLACK COMMUNITY, AND EVEN THOUGH IT'S CLOSE BY, AND IT'S ALWAYS A CHALLENGE TO UNDERSTAND WHERE YOU WANT TO BE AND HOW YOU WANT TO BE AND HOW YOU RECEIVE YOURSELF IN THIS AMERICAN, IN THIS NOTION OF BEING AN AMERICAN.

>> AND SO BASEBALL IS ALWAYS A METAPHOR FOR AMERICA.

>> FOR ME IT IS.

>> SAM POLLARD, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> MY PLEASURE, WALTER.

MY PLEASURE.