Welcome to Dialogue, the discussion series produced by WOSU Public Media and OSU's John Glenn College of Public Affairs.

I'm WOSU News Content Director Mike Thompson.

It has been a difficult two years for Columbus police and the community it serves.

The city and police division have experienced high-profile police shootings, criticism over officers, actions against protesters and a sharply rising murder rate.

All of this played a role in Columbus Mayor Andrew Ginther, his decision to look to outsiders to lead the city's policing efforts.

Both Chief Elaine Bryant and director Robert Clark have promised to try to heal divisions between police and city residents.

Chief Bryant came to Columbus from Detroit, where she spent 20 years with that city's police department, rising to the rank of deputy chief.

Director Clark's 35 year career began in Youngstown, then brought him to the FBI.

We'll hear from them in a minute, but this is a dialoge, albeit a virtual one.

We want to hear from you.

Please pose your questions using Zoom's Q&A function on your computer or on your phone.

WOSU's Diana Bergman is here to field your brief, brief questions and comments throughout the next hour.

Chief Bryant will start with you.

First of all, welcome to Columbus.

And welcome to Dialoge.

You've been here now a few months.

What's something that has surprised you?

Pleasantly surprised you, and you're in your short time here so far?

Well, first, thank you for having me.

And I've been here four months to be exact.

And that's something that has pleasantly surprised me.

The community's welcoming.

They wrap their arms around me and assistance you part, and they've been so willing to work with us in moving this vision for the police department.

So that's been extremely surprising.

We're very fortunate and very happy to have this community Has anything unexpectedly disappointed you?

Have you spotted anything that you say, I wasn't expecting that, but we need to address that.

Nothing that I wasn't necessarily expecting.

There are some things that we definitely need to work on, but I'm very confident that we can get it done.

Dr. Clarke, you are a Ph.D. candidate in organizational leadership.

You helped run the FBI's Los Angeles bureau, the field office there.

What are your impressions of how the division of police is run?

Do they have the right people in the right places?

Well, I'd like to first start off by saying we have some exceptional women and men who work for the Division of police in Columbus, and I'm very proud of their efforts.

Every single day they put on their uniforms and proudly hang their badges and go and serve in the way that we would expect them do with the professionalism, the engagement and certainly the transparency and equity that law enforcement demands in 2021.

One of the things that I'm definitely focused on is the technology support for our officers.

The facilities, support for our officers and ongoing training for our officers.

And these are three things or three areas that the chief and the assistant chief and I are probably talk about daily.

We are constantly reviewing and making sure that we are bringing the tools and resources that are women and men need to do the job that we ask them to do every day.

Chief Bryant, this is the first time in Columbus has gone outside of its ranks for its police chief and in any organization, any company, any nonprofit organization, even a brand new teacher in an elementary school coming into a new environment can be a challenge.

How has that been?

What have you done to try to ease your way into the Columbus Division of Police?

Well, first and foremost, it's really important to be transparent during this process, and the officers are key.

So I have had the opportunity to go to roll calls and meet with different officers and talk to them and let them know that my first priority is to make sure that not only do we have a safe community, but that my officers and their wellness is a priority as well too.

So getting them to understand in the buy in and with the vision that I understand that they've been working hard and they have done such a phenomenal job thus far coming into this organization as a new person.

I just want them to welcome me and know that my priority is to make sure that we work together.

This is not an individual effort, is a collaborative effort.

We have to make sure that we are all on the same page, though coming from the outside has been difficult, but the officers and the community has made it extremely easy for me because they've opened their arms and they're very receptive.

These officers just like Director Clark said, they are phenomenal.

They work hard each and every day.

They put that uniform on and they want nothing but the best for their community as well.

So it's been very easy for them to engage and just know that I and I'm coming in as an outsider, but I want to definitely be embraced as Columbus police divisions that I am a Columbus police officer right now.

That is what I am, and I want them to know that Dr. Clark, you are an applicant for the chief's job.

I can't imagine what the conversation was like with with the mayor when he said, OK, we're going to give you the chief's job, we're going to make you the chief's boss.

What was that like and why did you decide to take the director's job after pursuing the chief's job?

It was a very unique experience for me, certainly.

And while I certainly at the time with Chief Bryant and Assistant Chief Potts the very best, and then it was sometimelater that I was offered this position as a man of faith.

I just believe that God is in the blessing business.

And he blessed me with the opportunity to have the opportunity to interview with the mayor and his team about the position of director of public safety.

And given all that, I had the opportunity to do both as a Youngstown police officer, as an FBI agent working internationally in Trinidad and Tobago.

All of the innovation, all of the above program management.

I just really felt like I was built for this job and built for this moment because of these successes that I've had literally around the world to not only lead law enforcement efforts, but to build programs and innovative initiatives to be able to address a wide variety of things.

From cold case homicides in Los Angeles to community impact programs in Los Angeles to a human trafficking program in Trinidad and Tobago.

I just really felt like I was built for this opportunity to be able to sit in this office and support the chief of police, the assistant chief of police, our fire chief and all of the women and men who serve in public safety in the city of Columbus and just bring that skill set and experience to the director's office.

Chief Bryant, you've said you cannot tackle all of the issues that the Division of Police faces at once, which is your first issue.

Well, one of the first issues like crime, we understand that the quality of life is extremely important for our residents, so we want them to feel safe in their neighborhoods.

And with that hand in hand goes the relationship between the officers and the community, because once that relationship is stronger and it's built on trust, I believe that's going to be very instrumental in assisting us in being able to drive down this crime.

We have seen a spike in murders, many cities have seen similar spikes in violent crime.

Of course, the longer trend is that violent crime had been on the decline.

The pandemic seems to have perhaps played a role in spikes in Columbus and around the country.

To what do you attribute the rise in murders here in the city?

Chief Bryant.

I think, like you said, I think like these that we've seen that almost a 30 percent increase in violent crime across the nation, it's been unprecedented.

I think that a big part of that is civil unrest and COVID has presented some unique challenges, and it's up to us to try to get back to normalcy and get back to having these student, be able to go to school, to be able to participate in afterschool activities, to be able to get back to some normalcy within within the community.

So I think that we are in a unique position that we can address some of these issues and be able to.

I think we're going to see a decrease in crime, not only with the initiatives that we put forth within the community and our enforcement efforts, but with getting past COVID and being able to get back to that place where children can go to school, go to events and and not feel cooped up in those type of things, I think that it's going to help significantly.

Dr. Clark, I don't think there's any hard evidence, but a lot of police officers, some police officers, some police union officials have said that, you know, police officers feel that because of the backlash after the George Floyd murder and the protests there, they feel like they're reluctant to do their jobs as aggressively as they have in the past and some actually accuse officers of of not policing because for fear of being mislabeled.

Director Clark does that playing a role in the increase in murder rate here in Columbus?

I think there's a variety of things that play a role, to be honest with you, you know, as Chief Bryant shared, the pandemic, social unrest and a myriad of other factors because we have to understand that crime, violent crime and even homicides are manifestations of other social ills and social constructs that are not working well or not working at all.

Certainly through the pandemic, individuals were not, our children were not able to go to school.

They didn't have normal outlets such as sports.

They were not able to gather with their friends and have those natural outlets to be able to process their feelings and emotions.

They were kind of pinned up at home.

All of our social service agencies were not able to deliver the mental health services that they normally would access.

Our hospitals were overwhelmed with COVID patients, so they were not able to treat individuals.

So those sociological manifestations are certainly a layer in that right.

But we also understand that we are in a very different era of delivering policing services, as I and many others say that we are now in a space and a place where we have to figure out new ways to do old things.

Certainly, we must police and protect our communities.

But it's really more about collaboration rather than occupation.

And I come from a law enforcement era right at the height or the beginning of the height of the crack epidemic and explosion of gangs across the country.

So I was a police officer at that time.

So I certainly recognize what it is and what it looks like to be involved in suppressive policing simply because the crime and violence that we had on our city streets in the early 90s and then all of the other legislative things that came to support that, that we now look at 20 plus years, 30 plus years later and realize we probably should have done some different things.

Now in 2021 and beyond we have the opportunity to analyze that data from the past and recognize that there's an opportunity for us to build new and different constructs to engaging with the community.

Because here's the things that I share about policing and providing policing services to the community they will no longer accept.

Those resources are those processes that they don't understand, that they don't accept and that they don't are not able to engage in.

So we have to figure out how to effectively, transparently and equitably partner with our community to be able to bring the health, healing and restoration that ultimately we want to see.

Chief Bryant has said and many other chiefs across the country have said we will never arrest our way out of the issues that we have.

But that has to be a component.

So there are individuals, violent individuals who need to be arrested and need to go to jail.

But there's also a space and a place for us to be able to provide other services.

And we are in partnership now in developing those initiatives here in Columbus.

Chief Bryant, as you begin your work now, you've been here four months, so now you're sort of starting to get a feel, probably got a pretty good feel of how the division of police is run, places that needs to improve.

But at the same time, you're coping with this increase in crime.

What are some of the things you've been able to do or have done to change how police officers investigators respond to murders, violent crime?

Have you been able to do any of that in your first few months here?

So, yeah, so some of the things that we've done is we had an opportunity to evaluate some of these investigative unit, specifically our homicide unit, and we changed how we operate.

We are in the process of trying to get it a pilot program in order to make the responses more efficient, but more importantly, case review to make sure that these cases are being investigated properly and to make sure that there is some accountability from supervision level to make sure things are being done to solve these crimes.

We're going to continue to do that.

We're going to continue to put that effort for and we're going to make sure that the resources are available in the areas that they need to be available in homicide, non-fatal shootings.

A lot of times people forget about the non-fatal shootings, but they're equally important because non-fatal shooting is just a homicide that didn't occur if someone was attempting to actually take someone's life.

So we want to make sure we put the same effort into looking at those crimes and ensuring that we're following those as well.

So case reviews, making sure that supervisors are looking at their personnel and ensuring that people are getting the resources they need to be able to actively work, these cases are extremely important right now.

Yeah, I mean, one of the reasons why the murder rate has declined over the past few decades, frankly, is advances in medicine.

They're able to save many of those folks that are shot in those they now non-fatal shootings where 20 or 30 years ago they might have been might have been fatal shootings.

Director Clark, let's look at some of what what police you've mentioned that you can't arrest your way out of all of these problems and the scope of what police officers are asked to do.

Let's just start with one.

Should Columbus police officers be writing traffic tickets?

I think there's a component for us to do traffic enforcement, because if you go back and look at the statistics, we lose a lot of lives in traffic accidents.

So we do have to be involved in proactively controlling the flow of traffic and making sure that people are adhering to those traffic standards to save those lives as well.

Chief Bryant, if we look at how we respond to something like a domestic violence situation or a report of a mentally ill person in some and perhaps many of those cases, a person is in danger.

The subject of the report, the partner or other people are in danger if those incidents that the officers are responding to.

On the other hand, these are often mental health based emergencies, a domestic violence situation where a social worker, someone experienced in mental health treatment or social service social work might be a better equipped to handle it.

How do you how do you keep everyone safe, but also make sure that that situation does not end terribly, as we have seen in other cases?

Chief Bryant.

Absolutely that's extremely important, so one of the things that we do and I think that we're doing well and working with conjunction with the fire department Chief Happ is we do have something called the React team as well as the right response, alternative response.

So we want to make sure that we are sending the appropriate person to respond to a person's need, whether it's mental health crises, whether it is something that would require police to respond.

So we team up with our social workers and we team up with EMS or other first responders to ensure that the appropriate response is being given to a person's needs.

With that being said, we all know that it could be one thing when we first get the call and it can turn into something different.

So making it and ensuring safety is a priority for us.

It's important that everyone is cross-trained.

We want our officers to the crisis intervention training.

We want them to be trained on how to respond and address someone that is maybe suffering from a mental health crisis.

So ensuring that that training is in place is key.

We have, I'd say, approximately about 50 percent of our department trained.

We're in the process of ensuring that everyone gets that training to make sure that they know how to respond and also be able to reach out to someone else and provide the resources necessary if they don't have it at that time.

Give us an idea of how that training works, because I mean, for years, police officers come the situation.

It's highly it's a it's a very tense situation.

There may be a weapon involved, maybe a firearm or a knife involved, and you want to protect the person who is perhaps being threatened by that weapon and also protect the officer, him or herself.

How do you train the officer to quickly assess the situation?

So, you know, this is a mental health situation that I might not have to use my weapon as quickly as I might think I have to.

How does that training work?

So that's why we bring in outside experts to be able to train our officers in mental health.

But the officers, in their experience, you'd be surprised the majority of officers, they're very intuitive and they understand a lot of the situations that they're being placed in.

So part of that training from the outside, people that come in give it to us as they go through mock scenarios, as they talk about the different things that could occur could not occur.

And in addition to that, a big part of that is how they look.

So, you know, having a softer look, you know, not necessarily wearing a uniform that may be considered something that could be a trigger is important, too.

So when we have these officers respond, a lot of times you may dress them down to have them with more not sworn to be less confrontational in these type of situations, but having the outside personnel come in and do scenarios training.

And it's not just one training, it's continuous training.

They train consistently to make sure that they're up to date on the newest policies, newest procedures.

And so that's one of the things that we want to make sure that we continue going forward.

It's just continuous training.

We have said this is a Dialogue and we welcome your questions and comments.

Please use the Q&A function on your Zoom tool and we will go to Diana Bergemann, who has a question from our audience.

Yeah, a lot of questions about crime and violence at Ohio State campus, so I'm going to just pick one of them.

Did OSU executives tell Columbus P.D.

to stay away from the university district and what can be done to increase response time for an active break in to a home or apartment or a violent crime?

Chief Bryant, I'll let you take that one.

So I will tell you, no, we were never told to stay away from the university or the outskirts.

We work hand in hand with the Police Department for Ohio State as well as President Johnson.

They've been extremely welcoming to us to come in.

We've had several meetings.

We've actually created several initiatives over the course of I believe we started in August all the way up until November 1st.

We saw an 84 percent reduction in violent crimes in the area surrounding Ohio State.

So I think that a lot of the initiatives and things that we put in place have been extremely effective.

But we all know one crime is one too many.

We know that.

So even though we saw 84 percent reduction, it's still crime and it's still something that we're learning to address and we're working with them to try to figure out ways that we can even improve that.

So, no, they never told us not to come into their footprint where they've been very welcoming and we've been working with them as well as the students.

We continue to engage the students.

We want to have an open dialogue and have greater relationships with them as well.

So we encourage them to not only speak to us when there's an issue or call for service, but to have proactive discussions so that they get to know the officers in that area and develop those relationships.

Director Clark, is that something that that police departments like Columbus but around the country have have fallen short of not just dealing with, you know, the town gown issues with the with college campuses?

I'm sure you dealt with it in L.A. and police officers in L.A. dealt with it with the many colleges there and elsewhere in your career.

Police officers, police divisions reaching out to large organizations, whether they be universities or whether it be a neighborhood association or a social organization in the city, a large company that has a large campus.

How can police officers work better with those organizations?

Well, I'll take you back 20 years when I was on the attorney general's protection detail, 9-11 was my second day, so I got to watch not only the FBI, but law enforcement agencies and intelligence agencies around the globe change their business model, change their business practice to become much more collaborative, much more interactive with one another because we all learn the lesson around the globe that none of us could do the job alone.

And I actually got to be on the front lines and watch that change happen where we were having more integrative collaborative meetings, much more information sharing.

And since I've arrived in Columbus, it's been nothing but embracing.

I think I've been on several calls, several meetings with President Johnson and the staff at Ohio State University, as well as other law enforcement agencies.

Because we recognize that none of us have all the resources and personnel that we would like to have to do.

The job that we're responsible for and the threats that are we face are so dynamic now with the immediacy of information with the internet and all the technologies that are available to those who would pose those threats that we have to be collaborative with one another, we have to communicate.

And really, that's our advantage because not all bad guys are communicating with each other.

So we in law enforcement and intelligence services, we have to share information with each other.

We have to support one another.

We have to collaborate where we can so that we can have the most impact, not just on the threats, but also on the crime that is happening that we have to respond to.

As the father of two college students, as the chief said, one crime is too many and we're as parents, we are always concerned about children on campuses, so we want to do everything that we can as proactively as we can.

And a part of that is really threefold, to be honest with you, because we know that we can deploy resources that are have the ability to intervene.

We also can develop initiatives and processes and geographical dynamics that can be preventative with lights and cameras.

And then also with deterrence with third-party security services, student patrols, private patrols, private radio patrols.

So there's a lot of innovative ways that we can be interactive and collaborative to really address the crime and to reduce the perception of fear not just on the campus of colleges across the country, but in neighborhoods as well.

Chief Bryant, I'm sure perhaps you've gotten calls, I'm sure you've gotten calls from from folks on the east side of Columbus, from the Hilltop, from the south side of Columbus, who who deal with these types of crimes all the time, perhaps even more than than students at Ohio State.

Deal with them, and they're saying, Where am my bright lights from my streets, where my added patrols?

How do you meet those needs in those neighborhoods?

So we actually are in the process of looking at a reorganization for our department and to make sure that we are using our resources, that is in the best effort for the community and the division as well.

But I will tell you, we have gone, we have gone to so many community meetings where they say just that, you know, they've given us their issues, their concerns, and we addressed them to the best of our ability.

And we are in the process of doing Operation Unity.

We've done our second one.

We get our second one on November 2nd.

We get our first one in September and they were successful.

The first one was in the Far East Area and the second one was on the Hilltop.

So we are listening to them when we hear their concerns.

We know that there are issues and we are trying to target and make sure that we only not address the violent crime, but their quality of life issues as well.

We know that is extremely important for people to feel safe in their neighborhoods, be able to feel like they could sit on their porch without being harassed.

The kids should be able to ride their bikes down the street without being worried about being ran over by people driving recklessly or being shot.

So these are concerns that the neighbors of neighborhoods are giving us and we are addressing them.

But we're also in the process of looking at reorganization because we understand that every community has different needs.

This is.

We're going to make sure that we address those needs specifically for those communities.

Chief Bryant.

Operation Unity.

Correct me, if I'm wrong, this is like a 24-hour intensive policing effort where dozens of police officers who volunteer for this duty go into that community and they look for speeding cars.

Correct?

Explain a little bit more about Operation Unity is.

So Operation Unity twofold.

It is an enforcement piece where we are definitely looking to address some of the more violent crimes that are occurring in that neighborhood.

We want to get guns off the street.

We want to get felons that have a warrant for violent crimes off the street.

We're looking to address quality of life issues as well, too.

So while we are looking at traffic stops, just like the director said, there are a lot of issues where people are being hurt in traffic accidents, but also a lot of arrests in violent crimes occur and stem from some of the incidents that we've been able to get guns out of vehicles, guns that were used in homicides with guns that were used in carjacking.

So it's important that we're able to use every tool that we have in our toolbox.

But it's also important to understand that it's not about affecting the people in that community that need help.

For instance, we're not looking at the mother of two, a single mother who's trying to get to work, who has a broken feel like she's not our focus.

We want to assist her, let her know, Hey, you have a broken tail light.

And we're even in the process of working through some things that maybe be able to get them some help to address those issues because we know everyone has to have the money or the resources to be able to do that.

So we're not looking to hurt or harm the community.

We're trying to address their quality of life.

And so we also do a wraparound service.

So in addition to addressing the felons, in addition to getting the guns off the street, we go back in that community and we address the concerns that they may have specific to that community, whether it's domestic violence counseling, whether it's job training, whether it's substance abuse counseling.

We want to get them the help that they need to be able to try to heal that community as a whole.

Director Clark, how do you get that message down to the rank and file?

There are there are hundreds of police officers and you know, the old adage the broken tail light.

You pull the person over, see what they're up to, see if there is any warrants out.

Oftentimes, officers are accused of racial profiling using broken tail lights or minor defects in vehicles.

How do you make sure that that strategy?

You're an organization guy.

How do you make sure that strategy gets all the way down to the folks who have been doing it the same way for a lot of years?

Well, I can share with you.

I've been here in Columbus.

I'm in my seventh week and I have been in a multitude of meetings with the leadership within the Division of police, both with the chief and the assistant chief and all my own.

And we are we have a consistency in our messaging.

I just explained to our leaders that leadership is organic, which means you have to be engaged, you have to be involved.

You have to model the behavior that you want to see.

And certainly the vision and messaging that is created and transcends down through the ranks in the division, as developed by the chief of police and the assistant chief of police, is something that we are consistently messaging when we go to roll calls, when we're meeting officers at different events.

We are constantly messaging what the expectations are and what the priorities are, and we are so thankful to have the fabulous professionals that we have throughout the leadership ranks of the Division of Police all the way down to new officers.

I literally just swore in just a couple of weeks ago who was so excited to go to the road now, and he asked me, What?

What advice do you have for me, director as I go out to patrol?

And I said this to him, very simply, remember your oath.

Remember what you swore to uphold and protect and to do that to the very best of your ability with transparency, equity and dignity for the badge that you wear every day.

So the message is quite simple.

It's obviously modeling the behavior that we want to see in our officers, allowing them to see us organically leading and not just leading the women and men of the Division of police, but leading our collaborative partnerships and the community.

They see us at meetings.

I've been here for seven weeks and I think I've been to over probably 40 or 50 different meetings because that's where we're going to make a difference.

Partnering with our officers that are working the various watches throughout the city to be able to message the new expectations, the new leadership, a new vision and the new partnerships that we want to see here in the city of Columbus.

Chief Bryant, what about the officers who fall short, who don't fulfill those goals and do things that are wrong?

Where is where is the accountability?

We've heard the complaints that officers have bad personnel records, but they're allowed to remain on the force.

How do you expect to hold officers accountable when they do fall short?

It's one of the first things that I did when I met with my officers coming in is letting them know I'm going to support you when you're doing the right things for the right reasons.

I will have your back.

But also, if you're doing wrong things, I'm going to hold you accountable.

And it's been no secret.

I've said it across the division.

I've said it in the community and it is about leadership and it's about accountability.

So if an officer is doing something wrong, they will be held accountable and they know that they will be held accountable.

I am not sugarcoating it and I'm going to be extremely transparent with the community when it comes to that, because that's where you build that trust and that's what they know.

I don't want anyone to think that I'm going to sweep.

This department is going to sweep anything under the rug because we're not.

But with that being said, we're going to also make sure that the officers have the correct training.

They have the right tools, they have the right resources that they need to be able to do their job.

And then we're going to make sure that we hold their supervisors, their managers accountable in ensuring that they're doing the things that they're supposed to do to make sure that the officers are staying on track.

But accountability is extremely important.

And I think that it's by leading by example.

So it starts from the top down.

We inspect what we expect.

So we have to make sure that our officers are doing the things and and serving the people the way that we're doing it as well.

So they're watching what are you and officer to do anything and I'm not willing to be able to do myself.

Chief Bryant, are you able to to sufficiently hold officers accountable given union contracts?

We just had a situation within the past couple of weeks where an arbitrator said that the city should not have hired an independent investigator to look into how police handled protesters.

They said they violated the union contract.

The complaint that we hear over and over again is the police unions have too much power and that the union contracts sway in a way to allow officers who do wrong to remain on the job and not face consequences.

How do you react to that?

Well, I would tell you this, I'm coming in one of the first things I did was meet with the unions.

I want to make sure that my relationship with the union is amicable and strong as well, because I do understand that we have to work together.

With that being said again, you have the whole expectation and let them know this is what I expect going forward.

I can't speak about what happened in the past, but what I will tell you is this regardless of who's doing that investigation, whether it's internal, whether it's external.

That investigation is going to be done properly and it's going to and I'm going to make sure that if the results aren't, they come out that the officer did something wrong, that they will be held accountable to that standard that they need to be.

I can't control arbitrators decisions, but what I can control is ensuring that we're staying on top of our officers, that we're doing those investigations properly and that we're doing the things that we need to do on our end.

And what I will continue to work with the FOP because they are reasonable.

There are some things that we're not going to always agree on, but we can be respectful and talk about it.

There are some things that they're working with me and they understand that things need to be changed as well.

So it's not all negative.

There are positive aspects to this.

We've got many questions from our audience, our virtual audience there out there.

Diana Bergemann, What's what do you have?

Yeah, lots of questions still on the OSU thing, but a lot of focusing on, you know, training, training and resources are commendable.

But what are your departments doing to support the root causes of violence in the communities like poverty, education and employment?

Director Clark, we'll go with you on that one.

OK. That's a great question, because that goes back to what I was talking about earlier, that a lot of the violence and crime that we see in our community is manifestations of those social ills.

So across the city government, in Columbus and across our social service agencies and across our faith-based community, we are seeking partnerships.

The chief and I, and assistant chief, have had a series of roundtable conversations with organizations essentially inviting them on to our new neighborhood safety strategy and to provide those types of resources, whether it's to tutoring, whether it's engaging with our youth, mentoring, sports activities, mental health, a wide variety of resources because we recognize both coming from Detroit and Los Angeles and other places that those are the ways that we really begin to address the root causes of a lot of the problems that are in our community.

Unfortunately, they are historic.

They are multigenerational.

But at some point the leaders and we are the leaders right now, we have to go back and we have to address those things that we know cause those manifestations into the crimes that we see.

So we're in a process of partnering with a wide variety of agencies and organizations that can bring some of those solutions.

But ultimately, it's about engaging at the community level and the family level where we are now seeking parenting enrichment classes so that parents have much more effective relationship with their children and holding their children accountable and get back to a neighborhood-style of raising our children and holding our children accountable.

It seems like an insurmountable task, but that's really the philosophy that is necessary right now for us to get back to watching each other's kids, helping to raise each other's kids and really get back to the village concept within our communities so that not only we can start holding our children accountable, but then we're also giving them resources and alternatives and de-escalation processes and mediation processes, educational opportunities where they're struggling with tutoring and mentorship.

And these are the things that will help us to get to a place where we see less crime in our communities.

I want to get to de-escalation, but de-escalation when it comes to how an officer responds to an incident.

We've all seen the videos.

Officers seem quick to shoot.

They shoot multiple rounds.

Chief Bryant, what needs to change as far as the training and also the the mood, the the the attitude of officers that will when they respond to a situation where there is a firearm or a knife involved where they can try to diffuse it while keeping the people involved safe and keeping the officer him or herself safe.

What needs to change there as far as de-escalation?

Can anything change as far as de-escalation goes?

Well, I think it's important to to know that training is key and it is important to know what you can and cannot do.

But also knowing that they are going to be times in situations where an officer or an officer's life is in danger or a citizen's life is in imminent danger.

So we have to understand that while there are going to be some situations that may not look pretty, they may be necessary to use deadly force, so I want to just say that, but with that being said, I think a big key or a big important part of that is getting immersed in the community.

I think it's really important for officers to reflect the community in which they police.

And I think it's really important for them to understand the culture and understand the dynamics of the youth in their community.

So I think that getting more involved in the community from a proactive standpoint is going to assist big time.

And what I mean by that is this something as simple as understanding different cultures in the way that they communicate?

For instance, African-Americans were very animated.

We talk with our head.

It's not an aggressive thing, but some people may take it as aggressive because we're very we do this a lot.

We're very animated.

So it's very important for people to know that that's not necessarily a aggressive stance or that's not necessarily something that is making us hyper or vigilant.

It's just how we communicate and how we speak.

So the more that the officers engage in that community, the more that they learn they use names and oh, that's just so and so.

He plays basketball, although that's just so and so.

That's Mr Johnson's daughter.

That's Mr Johnson's son.

I think it's important for police officers to get immersed in their community, learn the neighborhood, learn the children, be more proactive.

And I think that we will see a different way in which everyone communicates not only the police with the residents, but the residents and their willingness to be able to engage with the police officers.

I think that they would have a better or an easier time talking to someone saying, OK, what's going on?

I need you to talk to me, put that down.

I think that if we engage more and get more active in our communities, I think that we would see a better outcome.

Director Clark, you know, police departments are set up like military organizations.

They have ranks, you know, captains, lieutenants, sergeants, they have chiefs instead of generals.

But there's they're set up like military organizations.

They on occasion will wear gear that resembles a military unit.

They will carry weapons that resemble military off what military soldiers will carry.

You come from the FBI, the FBI doesn't have ranks, you've got special agents, you've got special agents in charge, you've got supervisory special agents.

Do police departments have to shed this military culture that frankly, military is a tool of war?

So are police officers at war with their communities if they're set up like a military unit?

No, I would share with you the law enforcement agencies, both at the local, state and even federal level.

We have ranks as well.

Yes, they are titles, but they're still ranks.

And I want to make sure that we are we have a clarification of terms and understand the words that we're using.

Law enforcement agencies are not militarized or military organizations.

They are para-military organizations, which means they are structured with a chain of command and roles and responsibilities at each level of that chain of command.

I also want to make sure that we understand, too, that we exist in an era where the threats are a lot more dynamic than they were just a generation ago.

As you know, I started back in the late 80s and law enforcement and the threats were very different.

The individuals that we engaged were very different.

And now we have individuals globally, not just in the United States, but globally who are capable of deploying weapons of war and capable of deploying nuclear devices or dirty nuclear devices, or a lot of things that can bring a lot of harm.

We learned 20 years ago that individuals were able to weaponize airplanes in our transportation system, so we recognize that we are in a different era and we must ensure that our paramilitary law enforcement organizations, including the FBI, are equipped to handle and respond to and deal with those threats because they can become very dynamic.

And what I mean specifically is that you have criminals out there.

They have access to weapons of war, fully automatic weaponry, armored piercing bullets, grenades and a wide variety of other weapons that are weapons of war.

Our law enforcement personnel, who are the front lines to protect in our communities, must be equipped with the resources that will allow them to respond to those threats and to those criminal incidences where those mechanisms are used or those tactics are used.

You can look on the internet all day long and you can find videos where you can see mass shooters who have used militarized weapons that they have taken, military positioning and military tactics.

Starting with the Virginia Tech shooting all the way up to present day, so we can look at these incidents and our law enforcement community, our law enforcement profession has recognized and learned that we must be equipped to handle those incidents when they happen.

Just here recently, within the last six months or nine months where we've had mass shootings at grocery stores and schools and theaters and other places around the country, those first responders, those law enforcement officers who belong to paramilitary organizations, they were able to respond with the appropriate weaponry, the appropriate training, the appropriate tactics that we know ultimately save lives.

So that has to be a component of our law enforcement organization construct.

Director Clarke, let me let me let me stop you there, because you've you've illustrated the unusual.

Let's face it, you've been able to name the Virginia Tech shootings, mass shootings, terrorist attacks that has not happened in Columbus.

We have not had those types of incidents, and those incidents are very rare.

But yet police, as you describe, are paramilitary organizations.

Doesn't that hurt your efforts to build trust in the community if you are using it as an example that you are the front line in a war against terror or a war against violence, shouldn't the police pull back a bit and not get into this arms race?

I think that they have restrategize across the country.

We have strategized how we engage with the community.

We have these capabilities, yes, but that is not our methodology every single day that we go to work.

It's a part of our toolbox, but our strategies involve community collaboration, talking to the community, engaging with our children, leading the way and rebuilding that trust, building equity, building transparency and ultimately building the collaboration that we know is the key to resolving crime or reducing crime in our community.

Chief Bryant, what kind of guidelines have you put in place about when officers should don riot gear, when they should come into the heavy duty SWAT armored personnel carriers for lack of a better term?

I will tell you this, the one thing, the lessons that were learned and we in Detroit, we had 132 days straight of protest and that was the incident commander for that entire 132 days.

I will say that I think it's extremely important that officers are more relatable when it comes to the community, but also there is a time and a place where when incidents occur, there has to be the ability to respond in the manner that's going to be for the safety of the entire community and the businesses, the residents, everyone involved.

I think that one of the things that we do that's different in one of the things moving forward is even with that, we're changing our uniforms.

We're going to a softer look because I want the officers to be more relatable to the community.

I want them to be comfortable when they're policing.

So I think that when you talk about right, you're right, it is appropriate.

If there's a riot, there's a difference between protest and there's a difference between riot.

So if there is a situation where people's lives are in danger, if there is a situation where there's a time like the director said, there's a casualty that a incident where it could be mass casualties, that is appropriate.

But.

It's not always appropriate.

And policing has changed in 21st century, policing has recognized that and officers are being more relatable to the community and they have gone to softer approach even in their wear and their uniform.

So I think that it's relevant on both sides.

We have another question from our audience.

Diana Bergemann, What are we hear so many questions about Ohio State?

People are very concerned about just these robberies and carjackings and what the Columbus Police Department doing to help Ohio State and and there, pleas.

So I'm just going to put that out there.

I mean, I think they want more solid answers about some of those... Well Chief Bryant you addressed that.

I mean, I mean, many neighborhoods do face these issues.

Do you have enough officers?

Do we need more officers?

We definitely need more officers, but specific to Ohio State, I will tell you again, and I know that it's for that 16 percent that weren't effective.

It's everything to them.

But an 84 percent reduction in an area for crime is pretty significant.

We have poured a lot of resources and a lot of energy into ensuring that those communities are safe and they have them to the tune of 84 percent.

That's pretty significant.

So when you talk about what we've done, we've increased our patrols.

We've teamed up with Ohio State to create a collaborative response.

We're doing more even in areas that you can't see with undercover.

So we're doing things to make sure that those areas are safe and we have seen a significant reduction.

With that being said, one is too many.

So we know that if a crime occurs in that area is going to get a lot of attention is going to be spotlighted, but understand that there was significant decrease in that area when it comes to crime and we continue to work to ensure that we can decrease that even more.

We're putting up initiatives in place that down the road that are going to assist us, we're reviving our We our Reserves program, which is going to be significant and being able to help us put more visibility out on the streets.

But these things are not going to happen overnight.

Again, I've been here for months, the directors been here seven weeks.

So if people just give us a little time to be able to put some more initiatives in place, what you will see an increase in presence as we continue down this road.

But we have to.

It's going to take time.

It's not going to happen overnight.

Even with the academy class, it takes a total of seven months for an officer to get through the academy and then they have additional training to be able to go out there on their own.

So these things are going to take time.

Let's talk about the academy and recruiting new police officers.

It's been a struggle for police officers here in Columbus police departments around the country to diversify their ranks.

Chief Bryant, what is your strategy for making sure that we, our police division, represents the folks they serve racially?

Sexual orientation wise.

Gender wise.

Well, I think a big part of that step was hiring me, so, you know, when you when you look at the police department, it is, it's not.

It's not nearly as diverse as it should be when you talk about gender or when you talk about race.

So we are actively recruiting within our communities because we want to make sure that we get the youth in our communities an opportunity to join the police department.

We always tell them when they have something negative or when they're a little skeptical about police can be a part of the solution.

Show us how you want the police to treat your neighbor who is by becoming part of becoming a police officer.

I think that's extremely important to critical.

So we're going in the schools, we're going into these different colleges.

We have so many colleges in the city of Columbus that we can recruit from.

We also have our cadet program, which is geared towards the age group that can't join yet between 18 and 21.

So we're focusing on them and trying to make sure that we get them acclimated into our program so we can roll them right into the academy so that they can start.

So we are doing things, we're holding women recruit fairs.

We want to make sure that we're opening ourselves up to all the possibilities.

In addition to that, we're looking at laterals.

So that is a way that we may be able to bring some more diversity into the department as well.

Director Clark, when I talk about diversity of thought, how do you recruit a police officer, someone who wants to be a police officer who wants to be more of a community liaison, build bridges in the community and not just catch the bad guys, not just have that us against them mentality that is present in police departments.

Right.

As I shared with you, I've been in the business over 35 years and there used to be an era in the country at all levels where it was a warrior mentality because of the violence that we were seeing on our on our streets because of crack cocaine and explosion of gangs.

But we've now entered an era probably the last couple of years where we are looking for guardians and not warriors.

We are looking for individuals who want to be the difference that they want to see in their communities.

That's why myself, the chief, the assistant chief, our recruiters within the Division of Police, the Division of Fire are endemically in the communities having conversations and recruiting individuals from a variety of walks of life throughout our community so that we ultimately have a division of police and division of fire that represents the city of Columbus equitably.

And that includes our LGBT community.

We are actively recruiting individuals into our cadet program, into our our Public Safety Safety Corps program.

And we just had an event last night where there were over 50 young people who were there and inspiring them to serve.

Here's what we know about sociological events that happen in our country.

As I already shared, we are at a tipping point here in the United States, where things have got to change and be different.

But we were at that point right after 9-11, when the military saw record numbers of recruits and record numbers of individuals who joined our military.

Now we're in the same position in law enforcement in our country as well, where individuals want to see something different happening in their communities, happening on the streets that they live in.

They go to school and they raise their children and they're raising their hand and saying, I want to be a part of the process that brings that difference that becomes the guardian of my community, the guardian of my city.

So I anticipate that we will see record numbers of individuals applying to law enforcement agencies across the country.

We just have to get through this pandemic, which has been very, very difficult to personally engage individuals.

We are we just have a few minutes left and I want to get through just kind of a rapid round answers here.

So we're going to ask you to keep your answers fairly short.

I want to go through some of the slogans we've heard over the past two years.

Chief Bryant, well, we'll start with you.

What do you think when you hear the phrase defund the police?

I think that it's not about defunding the police, it's about policing different things, but we have to make sure that we are doing 21st century policing and pouring more efforts into community policing.

Director Clark, what do you think when you hear defund the police?

It's really not a process that we can engage in effectively, it's really about strategizing how we deploy our personnel, but ultimately how we recruit, how we train, how we supervise and ultimately how we manage the officers out on the street.

It's not about the funding, it's about more substantive engagement.

Director Clark, how about the we've heard a lot about overpoliced neighborhoods.

Do they exist?

How do you react to that accusation?

Well, I know that we are in an era of evidence-based policing and data-based policing, and we are where the crimes are, obviously.

So this is about strategizing effectively to make sure that we are resolving some of those issues that cause us to be in communities that have a high proportion of crime.

But it's about building that relationship with the community because we can't police that alone.

We can't solve the problems alone.

Chief Bryant, in your short time here, do you think Columbus has neighborhoods that are quote overpoliced and is there such a thing as an overpoliced neighborhood?

And does that victimize folks and lead to mass incarceration, that kind of thing?

I think my short time here, we don't have enough personnel to overpoliced anything.

We are in a situation where we need to make sure that we respond to the community.

And I will tell you there have been many people, many residents who said, Where are you?

We need more police in our neighborhoods.

We need more police.

So the people that actually live there, they're begging for us to come and be more present.

You're begging for us to come and take the criminals off the street.

They're begging for us to assist and help them.

So that's that's my answer.

Chief Bryant, the two big ones.

We'll start with the phrase Black Lives Matter.

What does that mean to you?

It means that, like Africa, the African American community wants to be recognized and heard and understood and understand that there has been significantly significant issues in our community and we want people to recognize that we want to be treated equal.

That's what it means.

And Director Clark, what do you what do you how you take the phrase Black Lives Matter, what does it mean to you?

I concur with Chief Bryant, but I would add this.

We just had a conversation the other day that Black Lives have got to matter to Black people.

We recognize that it is Black people in our communities across the country that are dying at record numbers, and a majority of them are dying at the hands of other Black people.

This is where I go back and talk about we've got to return to community-oriented, village-oriented raising and accountability for our children.

So Black Lives need to matter to Black people.

And Director Clark Blue Lives Matter.

How do you take that?

I would take that in this way.

We need to remember that the women and men who work for our law enforcement agencies across the country are human beings just like the rest of us.

And yes, their lives matter, but they have the same issues and the same problems as those we are trying to serve.

And we have to remember that they are a community of servants and guardians who are trying to do the very best job that they can with the equipment that we're giving them, the resources we're giving them.

And ultimately, we are going to change the interaction between law enforcement agencies and law enforcement officers and the communities so that eventually we get to a place where we recognize that all lives matter.

And Chief Byrant, Blue Lives Matter.

I would echo what the director said, and I think that our officers are important and we need to remember that they have families, they we have to humanize the badge and let people know that they are part of the community, their mothers, their wives, their uncles, their sisters, their brothers, and they have problems just like everyone else.

But with that being said, we hope we need to hold our officers to a higher standard because they took that oath.

But their lives matter and we have to make sure that their wellness is a priority for us as well.

Do you fear a divisive nature behind the Blue Lives Matter movement and the Black Lives Matter movement that it's not healing?

It's divisive, Chief Bryant?

I think that we are in a situation right now as we move forward to be able to get rid of all those negative connotations and start working towards a community-based response where we all matter and we all to be on the same page and we all can make this our community what we want it to be.

OK, that is all the time we have.

We would like to thank Columbus Police Chief Elaine Bryant and Columbus Public Safety Director Robert Clark for their candid and their thoughtful answers to our questions.

Be on the lookout for the next chapters in our Dialogue series coming this winter and spring.

Maybe we can even have a Dialogue in person like, you know, in the same room as soon as this program ends.

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