>> Lou: THAT INTERVIEW FROM RUSSELL WITH DR. TIMOTHY NELSON IS COMING UP IN ABOUT 15 MINUTES.

BEFORE WE MOVE ON TO OUR NEXT STORY, WE WANT TO SHARE THE KELLER ADMINISTRATION'S RESPONSE TO OUR QUESTIONS ABOUT CITIZEN POLICE OVERSIGHT.

THE MAYOR SPOKESPERSON SAYS HIS LETTER TO THE COUNCIL WAS MERELY A SUGGESTION TO, QUOTE, PROD COUNCILORS.

HERE IS PART OF THE STATEMENT.

QUOTE, APD IS ALMOST DONE WITH THE CONSENT DECREE AND ONE OF THE ONLY ITEMS LEFT IS COUNCIL'S CPOA WORK.

WE ALL JUST NEED TO GET OFF THE DIME AND SEE REFORM THROUGH FOR OUR COMMUNITY, END QUOTE.

YOU CAN READ THE MAYOR'S FULL RESPONSE ON OUR WEBSITE AND IN THIS WEEK'S NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS NEWSLETTER.

NOW WE TURN TO FORMER NEW MEXICO INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR NORMAN GUAM WHO IS BACK ON THE SHOW TO TALK ABOUT WATER PLANNING IN THE STATE.

OVER THE PAST DECADE GUAM WORKED FROM OUTSIDE GOVERNMENT URGING LAWMAKERS TO FUND NEW MEXICO'S WATER AGENCIES AND TO PROTECT THE STATE'S WATERS.

THESE DAYS, HE IS PRESIDENT OF THE GROUP, NEW MEXICO WATER ADVOCATES.

HE TALKS WITH OUR LAND SENIOR PRODUCER LAURA PASKUS ABOUT THE 2023 WATER SECURITY PLANNING ACT.

SOME OF THE SERIOUS PROBLEMS AROUND THE STATE AND THE NEED FOR COMMUNITY DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

>> Laura: NORM GAUM, WELCOME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Gaume: I AM GLAD TO BE HERE, LAURA.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Laura: A FEW MONTHS AGO WE HAD INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR HANNAH RISELEY-WHITE ON THE SHOW AND WE TALKED A BIT ABOUT WATER PLANNING IN NEW MEXICO.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU, HOW DO YOU FEEL WATER PLANNING IN NEW MEXICO IS GOING?

>> Gaume: WELL, FIRST OF ALL, LET ME SAY THAT I THINK THE LEGISLATION THAT PASSED IN 2023, AND IT PASSED WITHOUT A SINGLE NO VOTE, NOT IN COMMITTEE, NOT ON EITHER FLOOR, SIGNED BY THE GOVERNOR, IT WAS A STATE ENGINEER BILL.

SO, THE AGENCIES SUPPORT IT.

IT HAS SUCH POTENTIAL FOR NEW MEXICO.

BUT IT IS COMPLEX AND THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION AND THE STATE ENGINEER OFFICE ARE JUST BURIED IN WORK.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY THAT WE REALLY NEED THEM TO HAVE AND THAT IS BECAUSE THE LEGISLATURE HAS AND THE GOVERNORS, PAST GOVERNORS, HAVE ACTUALLY CUT THEIR STAFF, YOU KNOW, IN THIS AGE WHERE WE NEED -- WE ARE EXPERIENCING WATER SCARCITY, WE NEED PLANNING.

SO, THE GOOD NEWS IS WE HAVE A GREAT NEW LAW THAT COULD BE A TIPPING POINT, A PIVOT POINT, FROM WHICH PROGRESS ACCELERATES.

REALITIES ARE THAT IT IS GOING TO BE SLOW GETTING OFF THE GROUND BECAUSE OF CAPACITY LIMITATIONS, BOTH AT THE STATE LEVEL AND IN THE REGIONS THAT HAVE TO DO THE PLANNING.

>> Laura: DESPITE ENORMOUS BUDGET SURPLUS THAT EVERYBODY LIKES TO TALK ABOUT, ARE WE FUNDING WATER PLANNING AND WATER AGENCIES?

>> Gaume: NO, THE ANSWER IS ABSOLUTELY NOT.

>> Laura: I HAVE HEARD YOU TALK ABOUT ONGOING WATER GOVERNANCE ISSUES THAT REQUIRE IMMEDIATE ATTENTION OR ACTION.

WHAT ARE SOME OF THOSE?

>> Gaume: WELL, OGALLALA AQUIFER, COMMUNITIES, CLOVIS, PORTALES, TEXACO, I UNDERSTAND TEXACO AND PORTALES LITERALLY RAN OUT OF WATER THIS SUMMER.

THEIR WELLS RAN DRY.

THEY ARE GETTING TRICKLES OUT OF THEIR SHOWERS.

WE HAVE KNOWN ABOUT THAT PROBLEM FOR DECADES IN THIS STATE AND WE HAVE LET THE STATUS QUO GO UNTIL NOW WE LITERALLY HAVE MORE WELLS BEING DRILLED.

IT IS A RACE TO THE VERY BOTTOM OF THE AQUIFER.

I AM TALKING ABOUT COMMUNITIES, COMMUNITIES THAT WILL HAVE NO DRINKING WATER IF WE DON'T CHANGE WHAT WE ARE DOING NOW.

IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE WE HAVE BIG PROBLEMS.

BUT THEY ARE MANAGEABLE, BUT AS LONG AS WE ARE NOT ATTEMPTING TO MANAGE THEM HOLISTICALLY, THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BE MANAGED, BECAUSE NO ONE ENTITY HAS THE FORMULA TO FIX THINGS.

INTERNATIONAL SCHOLARS WHO MET AT UNM IN JUNE CONCLUDED THAT WATER IS A COMMUNITY PROBLEM.

RESEARCH INTO PROBLEMS AND SOLUTIONS DON'T REACH THE PEOPLE.

THEY DON'T REACH THE LEGISLATURE.

A COMMUNITY PROBLEM LIKE WATER CAN ONLY BE SOLVED THROUGH -- CAN ONLY BE ADDRESSED THROUGH COMMUNITY-DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

THAT IS WHAT PLANNING IS ALL ABOUT IT IS COMING UP WITH COMMUNITY DRIVEN SOLUTIONS.

AND THAT IS WHAT OUR NEW LAW PROVIDES FOR.

AND THE NEW SOLUTIONS CAN'T DEPEND JUST ON THE STATE OR JUST ON THE WATER AUTHORITY OR THE CONSERVANCY DISTRICT, BECAUSE ALL OF THOSE INSTITUTIONS IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY HAVE THEIR OWN MISSIONS AND MISSIONS ARE TO TAKE CARE OF THEIR PEOPLE, NOT TO TAKE CARE OF THE WATER SYSTEM AND THE WATER SUPPLY.

SO, THE PIECES DON'T ADD UP TO A WHOLE.

WHAT THE ACCESS IS WE HAVE TO COME TOGETHER, WE HAVE TO COLLABORATE AND WE HAVE TO FIND PROBLEMS -- SORRY, SOLUTIONS TO OUR PROBLEMS AND TO ME IT DOESN'T DO ANY GOOD TO TALK ABOUT THE SPECIFIC PROBLEMS RIGHT NOW, BECAUSE THAT IS JUST GOING TO TURN PEOPLE OFF.

WHAT WE HAVE TO DO IS WHAT THE WATER SECURITY PLANNING ACT TELL US TO DO, WHICH IS TO SELF ORGANIZE, A COLLABORATIVE EFFORT WHERE WE CAN WORK TOGETHER AND FIND AGREED SOLUTIONS TO OUR PROBLEMS AND IT IS NOT GOING TO BE EASY.

WE HAVE GOT TO GET STARTED.

>> Laura: THERE ARE THESE PROBLEMS STATE-WIDE AND ISSUES STATE-WIDE BUT JUST LOOKING AT THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE VALLEY, I AM CURIOUS WHAT YOU THINK.

ARE WE LIVING WITHIN OUR WATER BUDGET?

YEAH.

ARE WE LIVING WITHIN OR WATER BUDGET?

>> Gaume: THE SIMPLE ANSWER IS NO.

THE TREND HAS BEEN REALLY NEGATIVE JUST DOWN, DOWN, DOWN FOR THE LAST DECADE.

BASICALLY A LOT OF OUR WATER WENT AWAY BUT OUR USES REMAIN THE SAME.

WHAT WE DID IS TRANSFERRED FROM THE RIVER, WHICH WE WERE BEGINNING TO DEPEND ON FOR DRINKING WATER IN ALBUQUERQUE, BACK TO GROUNDWATER, AND, GUESS WHAT, THE GROUNDWATER, REMEMBER IT WAS RISING?

IT HAS STARTED TO FALL AGAIN.

BUT THE GOOD NEWS IS THAT WE HAVE THE INGREDIENTS FOR SOLUTION.

WE IN THE MIDDLE VALLEY HAVE OVER THE HALF THE STATE'S PEOPLE, WE HAVE HALF THE STATE'S ECONOMY, DIVERSIFIED ECONOMY, WE HAVE A THIN SLICE OF WATER TO SUPPORT ALL OF THAT.

WE HAVE TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO MANAGE THAT THIN SLICE BY AGREEMENT SO IT MEETS OUR NEEDS.

IT MAY NOT MEET ALL OUR WANTS BUT THERE IS ENOUGH WATER TO MEET OUR NEEDS.

>> Laura: LOOKING BACK, YOU WERE THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR FROM 1997 TO 2002.

LOOKING BACK NOW, WHAT DO YOU WISH THAT MAYBE YOU HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY THEN?

>> Gaume: YOU KNOW, I HAVE CLOSE COLLEAGUES THAT I DEPEND A LOT ON THAT COUNCIL ME, THAT MY CONSTANT WISHING THE PAST SHOULD HAVE BEEN DIFFERENT IS REALLY NOT PRODUCTIVE.

IT REALLY DOESN'T CHANGE THINGS.

WHAT WE HAVE TO FOCUS ON IS THE FUTURE.

WHAT DO I WISH I HAD DONE DIFFERENTLY?

WELL, WHEN I WAS APPOINTED INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION DIRECTOR THE CRISIS OF THE MOMENT IN WATER WAS COMPLIANCE WITH THE PECOS RIVER COMPACT.

AND THROUGH A COLLABORATIVE PROCESS INVOLVING THE STAKEHOLDERS WE FOUND AN AGREED SOLUTION, WE NEGOTIATED, EVERYBODY AGREED, IT WAS PASSED INTO LAW BY THE LEGISLATURE IN THE VERY NEXT SESSION OF THE LEGISLATURE AND YOU KNOW WHAT, COMPACT COMPLIANCE IN THE PECOS HAS NOT BEEN A PROBLEM SINCE.

AND IT WAS A CRISIS EVERY YEAR BEFORE THAT.

YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO 1987 WHEN WE WERE SERVED WITH A DECREE TO NEVER AGAIN OWE WATER TO TEXAS.

I SAID AT THE TIME THAT I AM HAPPY TO WORK ON THIS CRISIS BUT THE LOWER RIO GRANDE IS MORE IMPORTANT AND THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE IS MOST IMPORTANT OF ALL.

I DIDN'T HAVE THE BAND WIDTH OR TIME OR MY AGENCY DIDN'T HAVE THE RESOURCES TO DEAL WITH THOSE ISSUES, THE INTERSTATE STREAM COMMISSION.

THEY HAVE MORE RESOURCES NOW BUT NOT ENOUGH.

SO, I WISH, IF ANYTHING, WHAT WE HAD DONE WAS TO SET THE STAGE FOR CONCENTRATED ATTENTION ON THE LOWER RIO GRANDE AND THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE.

WE PREPARED A PLAN.

SOME OF THAT GOT INTO THE PLAN BUT, GUESS WHAT, THE PLANS WERE NEVER FUNDED TO BE IMPLEMENTED.

NOW THE PECOS RIVER PLAN, THAT WAS A CRISIS.

IT WAS FULLY FUNDED BY THE STATE, IT WAS IMPLEMENTED, IT WAS A SUCCESS.

WE NEED TO REPLICATE THAT IN THE LOWER RIO GRANDE.

WE MOST ESPECIALLY NEED TO REPLICATE IT HERE IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE.

>> Laura: SO, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT I THINK ABOUT SOMETIMES, PEOPLE WHO WORK IN WATER IN NEW MEXICO OR PROBABLY ANYWHERE, WHETHER THEY ARE IN FEDERAL OR STATE AGENCIES, LIKE, THEY GENUINELY CARE ABOUT WATER.

THEY ARE NOT IN IT FOR ANY OTHER REASON EXCEPT THAT THEY CARE ABOUT THESE ISSUES.

BUT I ALSO FEEL LIKE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO WORK IN WATER IN NEW MEXICO KNOW THAT OUR PROBLEMS ARE FAR BIGGER THAN WE PUBLICLY ACKNOWLEDGE.

CERTAINLY THAT LEGISLATORS ACKNOWLEDGE.

I AM CURIOUS WHAT YOU MIGHT URGE THESE TYPES OF EMPLOYEES TO CONSIDER OR TO THINK ABOUT IN THEIR DAILY WORK AND IN THEIR WORK FOR THE STATE?

>> Gaume: THAT IS AN EXCELLENT QUESTION, LAURA.

WHEN I ARRIVED AT THE ISC I WAS TOLD THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE TOO FRANK ABOUT PROBLEMS WHEN WE ARE TALKING ABOUT PROBLEMS BECAUSE THAT WOULD BE AN ADMISSION THAT WOULD BE USED AGAINST US.

SO, THE THEORY WAS TO EVEN TALK ABOUT A PROBLEM WAS AN ADMISSION.

RIGHT NOW, THERE ARE PEOPLE IN THE OFFICE OF THE STATE ENGINEER THAT ARE IN CHARGE OF THESE BIG DATA SETS.

THEY CAN'T HELP WHAT THE PEOPLE WHO CAME BEFORE THEM DID, BUT THOSE DATA SETS ARE IN LOUSY CONDITION AND THEY NEED TO BE CLEANED UP.

PEOPLE NEED TO SAY THAT.

ONE OF THE KEYS ON THE PECOS RIVER TO OUR SOLUTION WAS SPEAKING WHAT WE CALLED THEN AND WHAT I CALL NOW, THE PLAIN TRUTHS.

YOU KNOW, THE PLAIN TRUTHS IN ALBUQUERQUE IN THE 1990'S WERE THE AQUIFER IS NOT WORKING THE WAY WE THINK IT SHOULD, WHAT IS GOING ON?

AND THEN LATER WE CAN'T PUMP THE GROUNDWATER AS OUR ONLY MEANS OF SERVICE SUPPLY BECAUSE THE RIVER WATER IS NOT MAKING INTO IT.

THAT IS THE PLAIN TRUTH.

THE PLAIN TRUTH OF THE RIO GRANDE IS WE ARE USING MORE WATER THAN WE ARE ENTITLED.

THE PLAIN TRUTH IN THE MIDDLE RIO GRANDE IS THAT NOBODY IS PROTECTING THE VOLUME OF WATER THAT REMAINS IN THE AQUIFER.

THE AQUIFER IS NOT A PROTECTED WATER SUPPLY SOURCE IN THE STATE EXCEPT THROUGH PERMITS AND THINGS THAT ONLY PERIPHERALLY GET TO THE PROBLEM AND THOSE PERMITS ARE NEVER REVISITED.

SO WE HAVE TO CHANGE OUR WAYS DRAMATICALLY.

AND THE ONLY WAY WE DO THAT IS TO TALK ABOUT THE PROBLEMS.

ADMISSION OR NOT, WE CAN'T SOLVE A PROBLEM UNLESS WE CAN NAME IT.

NAME THE PROBLEMS, TALK ABOUT THEM, SEEK SOLUTIONS.

>> Laura: THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR BEING ON THE SHOW.

ON OUR WEBSITE, WE'LL HAVE RESOURCES AND INFORMATION ON HOW PEOPLE CAN BECOME INVOLVED IN WATER PLANNING.

THANK YOU.

>> Gaume: LAURA, YOU DO A REAL PUBLIC SERVICE IN NEW MEXICO.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> Laura: THANKS.